*Note: Interview recorded to audio only.

Elizabeth Uhlig: This is an oral history recording with Glenn Klein. Today is December 18th, 2007 and we're in Glenn's home here in Corvallis, Oregon. My name is Elizabeth Uhlig and I will be asking the questions. Glenn, to start with could you tell us where you were born?

Glenn Klein: I was born in Salem, Oregon. Just a few miles up the road from Corvallis here.

EU: What did your parents do?

GK: My father, we had a small dairy farm in Aumsville is where I really grew up although I was born in Salem. My father worked at Curly's Dairy in Salem. We also had a 25 acre farm where we had about 30 cows. My mother was a homemaker, community volunteer, she originally was a school teacher in the old days when they got a teaching normal degree in two years in Minnesota and North Dakota but came out here. She was basically a homemaker, community volunteer.

EU: Did you, I suppose, have to work on the farm?

GK: Oh yes, I worked all the time. Not as much in summer because we didn't have a big enough farm to put up hay and so on. But I worked in the bean fields and the berry fields and so on in the community doing farm labor as a kid, but not always on the farm. But with the dairy farm, we were what they call town's supply which meant that we had to produce a minimum of amount of milk every day. So we did milk the cows twice a day, every day.

EU: So did you help with the milking?

GK: Oh yes. The one good thing was dad usually was nice enough to let us sleep in enough till he got the cows in but my brother and I both, we were out there milking the cows mornings and nights, seven days a week.

EU: Did you have other brothers and sisters?

GK: I had one brother and two sisters. My brother has passed away but my two sisters are still living. Both in Salem still.

EU: When you were a boy, then growing up were you a member of 4-H?

GK: I was. I was a member for five years, not very long because World War II came along and there were times when we high school students in those days were working in the cannery if you weren't working in the fields. You were putting in ten to twelve to fifteen hour days and so there wasn't as much time to do 4-H or that kind of activity.

EU: So can you talk about your experience during World War II then?

GK: Well I graduated high school in 1945, the war was not over yet but I tried to enlist in the Navy but I didn't pass the Nurse's physical as I call but I ended up volunteering for the Army and I actually got accepted and assigned to the Air Force. So I served in the U.S. Air Force from 45' to 47' course the war was really over now by this time. So I, as I say, was a steel desk commando and my service was the entire time in Texas.

EU: So you didn't get overseas?

GK: I did not. I did not get overseas.

EU: So you were out of the Army in '47?

GK: Yes and I had the GI bills and I came to Oregon State and enrolled in agriculture and four years later graduated from Oregon State with a Bachelor's Degree in Agricultural Education.

EU: Did you always know you were going to go to college and study?

GK: Well, I didn't but the original plan was we were going to try to find a big enough place so my dad and I could dairy farm together but dad didn't have any money to try to buy a piece of land that would have been big enough for more than two people to be employed to make money. Just didn't find anything. When the GI bill came along and it became a thing that I could go to school because the folks could not afford to send both of us and my sister and I actually started school together although she was a year, almost two years, younger than I was. And then I just took agriculture because I thought someday I wanted to go into farming.

EU: So you say your sister also graduated?

GK: She did, she graduated from home economics, same year as I did, from OSU. And her husband, they got married between their junior and senior year so they finished last year as seniors as a married couple. And we all three graduated together and he also was an Extension, Harold Youngberg. He was an Extension Specialist in farm crops at the end of his career.

EU: After you graduated then what kind of job were you looking for?

GK: Well you during my senior year the United States had a program called IFYE, The International Farm Youth Exchange is sponsored by Extension 4-H. A lot of the first people to people programs stared in 1948 but Oregon decided it wanted to get into the program in 1951 and I was interested cause we knew the person who was going was going to New Zealand and of course New Zealand, famous dairy and being a dairy boy this sounded ideal. So I applied and was accepted and so mainly after college I went on the farm youth exchange program to New Zealand.

[0:05:18]

EU: And what did you do in New Zealand?

GK: Well the program was designed that you actually lived with the family. You lived and worked and played as if you were a member of the family, so I was there nine months and I lived on seven different farms, a little over a month on each farm and did some touring of the country in addition. But the basic principle was to just to live as a member of the family and tell about what your family and things were like in Oregon, in the United States or learn about what it was like there in New Zealand.

EU: Was their dairying different from ours?

GK: Oh their dairying was years ahead of us. They had milk parlors and different types of milking systems that we hadn't even began to use, at least in the very, almost fancyist [?] areas in the United States. They were way ahead of us because dairying is a major industry and of course they did it seasonally because of they had no housing for cattle like we do in the United States and they were producing, because of the shipping costs, primarily butter and cheese and dried milk. And any air transportation, we sailed to New Zealand then in 1951, nowadays you'd never sail to New Zealand, you'd fly down but it was too expensive so we went down by ship took us 19 days or more to sail from Vancouver to Calamud Dock of New Zealand. And so the dairying there was seasonal, the cows were calved in the spring on the heavy flush of grass and then they dried up over the winter and their product all went to the local dairy factories to milk or butter or cheese or to dry it.

EU: So it wasn't a seven days a week, you know every day throughout the year.

GK: No it was not. They had like ten months maybe when their dairy was up, the other two months the dairy was down. They were making hay or they could take time off. It wasn't like many of our farms do now today with town supply where you have to milk every day, 365 days a year to supply the grade A milk we do for cities. Of course if you're in a diary area that's just producing cheese or butter, you don't have to do it year round but most of United States does it year round, we don't do it seasonally like they do. But they do it because their climate and because it's expensive transporting a product that costs more, but their cattle are never indoors, they never house them inside. It amazed me, of course this was a real learning experience for me to see this in diary.

EU: Did you do any sight-seeing then?

GK: Oh yes, we spent almost a month just... because we were the first ones there, there was a girl from California and I, and they wanted the young farmer's group which was sponsoring to know what 4-H and what the United States was about so it shouldn't have been part of the tour but because we were the first, they did it that way and I know we questioned it when we got there and we actually wired Washington, D.C. and said "is this okay to do this?" and they said "well if they got it planned." They had it all scheduled out you know, they had young farmers come for a month ahead waiting for us to come and visit so this is what we did. But it was really not to be touristy type of thing but we did it for about a month. But mostly you were visiting young farmers and visiting their clubs, and they'd throw in their tourist sites when we were in each community. You know how it is, when you're visiting you got to see the local sites.

EU: You say you were the first people to go over.

GK: In this exchange, yes, from the United States.

EU: How did that exchange get started? Who were the people behind it?

GK: It was a group of young people on the East Coast and they had worked with people in England to the idea to this "people-to-people" exchange. They were saying that wars were caused because people don't understand each other, this was their premise and Eisenhower as president was also preaching this with his "people-to-people" program. And this is basically how it got started and because the Extension in 4-H was a logical one in terms of doing a farm exchange, they felt that this was a good way to do it. A farm exchange you can live and work in a family because it's part of it but going into a city setting it's a little different. And this is how it got started and I think there were about ten or twelve states that did it the first year but it gains such great support the first few years that before it was done, well now the IFYE program worldwide in other countries is not only exchanging with us, their exchanging with each other so you may have IFYEs going from France to New Zealand or France to Australia or other countries so it's become a worldwide program. It isn't nearly as extensive now as it was in those early days because in the 50s you didn't travel a lot but nowadays you know how it is, many young people are traveling overseas and doing things that wasn't being done there.

[0:10:15]

EU: So when you came back to the United States?

GK: Yes when I came back, one of my obligations was to report to the people of Oregon. So I spent over six months just going around the state talking to 4-H groups, to PTAs, to schools, to granges, farm bureaus, livestock associations telling them about New Zealand and showing slides and doing this type of thing. So I spent over six months just touring the state. It was a real education for me you know to learn Oregon as well, having grown up here in the Willamette Valley.

EU: So when did you start working again for the Extension Service?

GK: During that time L. J. Allen was a state leader then and Doc Allen - they called him Doc, I don't know where he got it - said "Glenn, you'd make a good Extension Agent, are you interested?" Well I had not actually decided which way I wanted to go as a career and I said "sounds great." So they hired me and I started work then in 1952 as an Extension Agent then worked for the university for the rest of my career.

EU: What was your first job?

GK: Well actually I was an Extension Agent-at-Large is what they called me and so I was helping out in the state office doing some tours and this type of thing when some of the other state people were gone. But actually I did temporary assignments in Lincoln County and Josephine County. But my first permanent assignment was in Medford where I went down to Medford and I was a 4-H Extension Agent there for seven years.

EU: So you were the 4-H Extension Agent in Medford for Jackson County. So what were some of the projects that you worked on?

GK: Well one of the things I enjoyed the most was that we had a team council of teenagers, we had one of the larger teenage programs in 4-H at the time and one of their activities which was significant was that you worked with kids and tried to challenge them to do things. Oregon was going to celebrate its centennial so we brainstormed in our committee what would be a good project to help Oregon celebrate and we came up with the idea of a 4-H covered wagon trek. In those days, Oregon had a 4-H summer school program at Oregon State, every County sent delegates to the 4-H summer school. It was a two week session with over a weekend where you had Sunday off and the kids came and spent ten days in Corvallis. Well you had to transport the kids there so we felt a good idea was why don't we come up the old Applegate trail, it wasn't quite the Oregon trail as people came people came out from Independence but we came up the Applegate trail from Jacksonville, which is the old gold rush city in Southern Oregon up to Corvallis and bring the kids up in covered wagons and that we did.

EU: The Applegate trail, did that basically parallel the Interstate 5?

GK: It did almost identically, there a few variations like a drain in others where it didn't but basically the freeway pretty much comes through the very way that the Applegate trail came. At least from Southern Oregon up into the Valley.

EU: That must have been a huge undertaking with horses and people.

GK: Well in those days even finding covered wagons, you know in the 50s you didn't have any, in fact we ended up buying one. We had to search around and bought one that I personally owned and it had a bird-stamp in the tongue that said it was built in 1896, some guy had it in a farm over on the coast and wasn't using it. And we had one man who built a covered wagon, which was not an easy thing to do, it wasn't quite standard but we were able to find four covered wagons that we used to transport the kids up. We got canvases, put them on, we had to build stays for most of them because the stays were gone on most of the wagons by that time, they were used to haul things in a body as such, we wanted to cover them with canvas as the thing was when they came across the prairies.

EU: How many children or students came?

GK: We had about 60 4-H'ers, boys and girls. They didn't all come to 4-H summer school but these were the older kids who came. About a third of them stayed on to 4-H summer school and on the way we correspond with the other counties and told them what we were doing and the agent Andy Anderson in Curry County said "this sounds great" and he had a horse project and the kids rode the horses over the coast range to meet us at Wolf Creek in Southern Oregon and one of their members came on with us on the tour, joined one of our wagons. Then in Douglas County they actually added a wagon in Douglas County so we ended up with five different wagons coming up, four from Jackson County and one from Douglas County and we had a big banner on the side that said Jackson County 4-H on one side and it said "Corvallis or bust" on the other side.

[0:15:10]

EU: Now did you get to ride?

GK: Well you know I walked at least half the way because one of the things that finding horses that had labored and did a pull going up some of those hills in Southern Oregon, right or wrong we made the kids walk up to not put a heavy load on the horses, we had one team of mules but they could ride down the hill. But I, in cowboy boots, know most of the road between Southern Oregon to Corvallis having walked most of it.

EU: What did you do for food?

GK: The state had a trailer that had all the supplies for what they use for livestock and so we were able to borrow that and we had a cook who was seventy years old by the name of Jesse James of all the names but she was a lady, seventy years of age, and a great school cook and we hired Jesse, she thought this would be great. And what we did was that I let Jesse use my car, hook the trailer on it and she would cook us a hot meal in the morning, prepare us a lunch for noon time when we were on the road and then she would go ahead and set up camp at our next stop which was about 15-25 miles ahead and have us a hot meal waiting for us when we got there at the end of the day.

EU: Did you interact with people in the towns along the way?

GK: We did. Every night we had announced this and notified all the public people in the newspapers and we had a campfire every night where in essence put on entertainment, we told stories and they sang songs and invited the local community to come and join us. So we did put on a program like this each evening to try to encourage the local people to participate.

EU: Did you have news coverage?

GK: We did. Almost every city came with newspaper, took photographs. There were many stories, we would get papers forwarded to us along the way showing us the pictures they had taken and the stories they wrote about the covered wagon trip.

EU: You did that just one time then?

GK: One time, 1959 celebrating the Oregon centennial. I'm not sure I'd want to do it again.

EU: The sesquicentennial is coming up.

GK: It's coming up, I know.

EU: What other projects did you work on?

GK: Well you know, one of the things in Jackson County, I had a dog breeder come in to me from Goat Hill and he said "I got some German Shepard pups that would be great to raise as guide dogs for the blind in San Rafael." Well this sounded like a great idea to me to raise pups and we knew about the guide dog school in San Rafael and so I blissfully said yes and we got seven pups and I organized as a 4-H guide dog club and we proceeded to do some very basic preliminary training like fetch and heel and come and stay and those types of things with the dogs but because we knew the training would be basically done at San Rafael, California. But in my ignorance I didn't check with San Rafael about this and after the dogs were about 13-14 months old I said "you know it's about time they went in for their training." So I called San Rafael and they had never heard of this dog breeder, certainly hadn't heard of me but the man who was in charge of the program in San Rafael actually had been a canine trainer of dogs for World War II jumped in his car with his wife and their two cocker spaniels and was in Medford the next day. And he visited with us and told us the fact that it wasn't likely that the seven pups would become guide dogs because they were not socialized as they should be. They were kennel raised and he said that "we learned in a hurry that kennel raised dogs don't frequently make guide dogs because they don't social outside of the pack mentality you have as a dog."

And we learned things that you never knew about, I didn't know that the dog's central nervous system doesn't activate until its 20th day and if you raise puppies you all of a sudden its twenty days and the puppies start wanting to get out and run around and so on. And this is when you start socializing a dog and in San Rafael after twenty days a volunteer comes in and spends an hour each day with the dog to take it away from that pack mentality and dominance and the top dog and so on in the chain. Because a guide dog can't be submissive, they've got to be able to lead a person in all sorts of things, downtown San Francisco I was amazed when I watched what they did with taking a guide dog and training it. Dogs are color blind and dogs don't know red and green lights so they have to learn to watch traffic flow and pedestrian flow and how smart dogs are and the fact if you're leading a dog, a dog can go under a barrier but a human can't. So you learn in a hurry how smart dogs are and the training goes with it.

[0:20:04]

So it was a great project, we were disappointed when we heard this. We initially took six of the dogs to San Rafael, one was too big he said "don't anybody take this big dog" and of the six only one of them became a guide dog and we regretted this but we learned our lesson. The good thing was that because we did this, Oregon... no other state except California had ever been allowed to raise guide dog puppies but Pfaff as he was called was so in sympathy of what happened to us that he said "hey, we're going to allow you to raise guide dogs" so we actually allowed Jackson County to be the first county outside of California to have a 4-H guide dog program. Incidentally, Twig who was the big dog, too big, eventually became a guide dog because Pfaff called us about a year later and he said "I got a guy 6'6" who needs a big dog, are you willing to let Twig try it out?" and of course in the family he had become a good pet you know, it's hard to give up a pet but the kid says "this is what we raised him for" and we let him go and Twig became a guide dog, so we made two out of seven.

EU: And then you continued that?

GK: We did. We continued the entire time I was there and then it went statewide and now we have a training site at Boring, Oregon. So now there are two sites, one in San Rafael and one in Boring so it's a big program and it's a tremendous program that blind people don't have to pay a thing, the donated money provides the training and the dog for blind people.

EU: Can you talk a little bit about your work in Medford? What did you do every day?

GK: Well you know when you got his many 4-H clubs one of your jobs is to provide training. We had a teen council of leaders for the 4-H association and you do training for leaders in record keeping, human development, how do you deal with kids who are problem kids. We had monthly meetings with both groups and I was one of those that felt you have an executive committee in addition to the monthly meeting so we can plan strategy before the meeting came into effect. You deal with exhibits and things like this at the county fair and Jackson County at the time it was strictly a youth-fair, 4-H and FFA and 4-H made up about 90% of the county fair. And so basically you weren't the fair manager quite per se but because the youth program was 90% of the fair, the leaders had a food booth there and you hired judges and you have to bring in experts to do the judging and you also bring in people who do training for the different projects that you have. You have achievement programs for kids, the banks in those days, U.S. and 1st National Bank provided the pins for leaders and you have achievement programs and was one of the things I always enjoyed. We had a good relationship with our bankers and we'd pick up the bankers and take them out to the achievement program, one from each of the major banks and they would present the pins. The bankers didn't always enjoy the public speaking and pronouncing names, there would be a problem with names, so what we did is we would announce the names and let the banker hand the pin to the kid or the leader. And they enjoyed it and I think they people did too, having the banks involved. Banks have always been a good supporter of the youth program.

EU: So you were in Medford till 1960?

GK: I came up to Corvallis. I was asked, one of our state specialists was going on leave to work on an advanced degree and the director asked me if I would be interested. For those who have never met Frank Ballard was our Extension director at the time. And Mr. Ballard was a significant man, not only in Oregon. He was president of Oregon State University and that's why Ballard Hall on campus is named after him. I don't think he was five feet, two inches tall, short man with heavy glasses but what a power he was. You don't become president of a university from an Extension director's job unless you got some moxie and he was great and it wasn't only in Oregon. In his later years when they had any need for people to testify before congressional committees, the U.S. Board of Agriculture was on the phone calling Frank Ballard to come to Washington, D.C. to testify before committees. And he was the one, I was in a training session in Eugene and these were the days when the director as such usually dealt with his top administrators and staff chairmen but all of a sudden my supervisor says that Director Ballard wants to talk to you. Well Director Ballard didn't talk to young agents and I was saying "what have I done wrong now?" So I went to the phone and he said "Cal Monroe wants to go on leave, they say that you might go to school, would you be interested in coming to Corvallis to work for a year then go take sabbatical and get your master's degree?" and I said "sounds great to me, should I talk to the state leader, Mr. Hutton?" and he said "no, Mr. Hutton will talk to you. Good day," in essence. So that was one of my three brief meetings with Mr. Ballard.

EU: So when you moved to Corvallis what was your position?

GK: Actually then I was an acting state Extension Agent or a state agent at large, then when I came back for my master's degree - I went to Maryland to earn my master's degree - the question was where would I be assigned but the truth was they said "Glenn we would like you to stay on" so I stayed on in Corvallis as an Extension Specialist, so basically I had thought I would go back to a county but I stayed on as a state Extension Agent or state specialist.

[0:25:46]

EU: Why did you go to Maryland and what did you study?

GK: Well Maryland is a land grant university and I studied adult education and leadership and social psychology because these were areas I was interested in. And of course with Washington, D.C. as the home of the U.S. Department of Agriculture and also at that time they had a program called 4-H fellows and they had a program to train county Extension Agents and I could piggy bank at some of their training sessions even though I was working on my masters at Maryland, I could go to some of their sessions in Washington, D.C. And it seemed like a good thing and Maryland is a great institution so that is why I ended up in Maryland.

EU: Did you like it back east?

GK: I did. I learned in a hurry though that when people complain about rain in Oregon, Oregon has a steady light rain. When you go to a Midwest/East Coast you get drenched in thirty seconds in a cloud burst and it had never happened to me before and I never carried an umbrella or hat until I went to Maryland and then I got both an umbrella and started wearing a hat because you couldn't walk across campus in three minutes without getting soaked some time. But I enjoyed it, it was a good experience and seeing the big city, being a small town boy, I enjoyed the experience but I'm still a small town boy. I was very happy to come back to Corvallis, Oregon.

EU: So your career from that point on was in Corvallis.

GK: That's correct; I've been in Corvallis for ever since 1960.

EU: Okay and what was your position then?

GK: Well at that time because I had taken some work in human development at a special workshop at Cornell and also with my training at Maryland, I had done some leadership training for 4-H primarily in 4-H leaders. But the man who was head of the Extension education program and the classes on campus and also he was a leadership...

[0:27:45]

Elizabeth Uhlig: This is part two of the interview with Glenn Klein. Glenn could you talk a little bit about when you came back from University of Maryland what was your position?

Glenn Klein: I originally thought I'd be going back into a county but they decided at that time that they needed another 4-H specialist and they asked me if I was interested in doing so and I had some training in leadership and things like this which was one of the things that was important in youth and I said "sure, I would do it" and so I became a state 4-H specialist. And some of my assignments included leadership, working with youth councils, working with the training of 4-H leaders. And in those years, Burton Hutton was a state 4-H club leader and the man who hired me, Doc Allen was really one of a trio of pioneers that headed the Oregon 4-H program for, some would say decades; Helen Cowgill, H. C. Seymour - Harry Seymour - and L. J. "Doc" Allen. And during that time they were looking at how do we recognize them so now for anybody who visits Corvallis on lower campus, there are three marble fences benches on lower campus down from the administration building, just off of Jefferson Street, recognizing these three people who together must have spent over a hundred and twenty or thirty years leading the 4-H club program in Oregon. And Doc. was the one who hired me; he was still a leader when I got hired first at Oregon State.

EU: Is that when you met also Frank Ballard.

GK: Well of course I had met the director when I was hired as a county agent but just once you know cause when you have a new hiree, you meet the director. But that's about the extent of it in terms of when you meet the director, unless you're one of the senior agents or staff chairmen or one of the old boys and I was not an old boy.

[0:29:47]

EU: Could you talk about when you came back from Maryland and you were in Corvallis, the rest of your career here, what kinds of things did you do?

GK: Well each of us on the State's staff had an area of responsibility and it may have been forestry and livestock or leadership and sometimes they were activity events like state fairs or tours, this type of thing. So you shared things and sometimes you rotated these amongst the staff so each staff member wasn't doing the same thing all the time. One year you might be chairman of 4-H summer school, the next year you might be chairman of the activities of state fair. So these were the kind of things that you did and leadership was an area that I had been trained in, was very much interested in so I was doing a lot of leadership training at 4-H summer school and these kind of things when I was a 4-H specialist. Also at that time, Oregon had under Governor Mark Hatfield had a commission on children and youth which was funded by the state legislature. And they had a state commission and then they had a state youth council and Mark Hatfield the governor appointed me along with a teacher from Medford to be advisors to the state youth council. Then we work with the executive secretary of the governor's commission on children and youth with the state youth council and we met once a month in Portland usually to discuss the kind of problems that face youths and how to involve youth in this. And an outgrowth was the fact that they asked Extension to try to organize county youth councils in each county that would then fed into the state youth council and the state governor's commission on children and youth. I mean adults had their organizations in each county, they felt it was appropriate that counties' youth have an organization in each county. But organizing youth was not an easy thing. We tried to get each high school to designate two young people. We also asked youth groups like scouts and 4-H and campfire to designate a person or two to a county council. And the county agent then was to serve as an adult advisor, also trying to involve maybe one other adult as well in this. This was not an easy thing, if you know anything about working with youth and the changeover that happens every year, usually these were high school seniors; it's not an easy task to do. But we worked with this program for about seven to eight years and my feeling always was that it was a great thing to do cause kids ought to have a say on what's happening to them but it almost was before its time in terms of how accepting it was cause many of the adults didn't think kids had much say you know, it was a matter of you tell kids what to do.

I still remember one of my experiences with the kids. When I worked with groups, even adults, I say if you're going to have a big group, the executive committee of officers need to plan before they have a regular meeting. And I required this when I worked with youth groups too. When I was on campus I worked with a fraternity once although I wasn't a Greek and I made the same requirements which didn't always set well with people but if you want people to practice leadership, they have to strategize and plan it before they practice it and we had this state youth council of high school seniors from around the Willamette Valley mostly, there were a few from Southern Oregon or Eastern Oregon but very few, most of them were from Willamette Valley, meeting in Portland once a month and they all officers had met once before that. And I can still remember that getting started isn't easy in a new group and that the executive secretary would hand the state youth council president the agenda. But what delighted me was that the third meeting, the state president then handed his executive director his agenda for the youth council. That said to me that the lady, the teacher and I who were working on this, we got to the kids that this was their youth council, this was their agenda. And I think the executive director recognizes too that they needed some help but we felt that you did that help before they have the youth council session of twenty kids, three or four kids were planning and doing things. And it worked, it was one of the things I think really worked with people.

EU: And then the governor then listened to these youth?

GK: He did, they had a governor's conference every year. And it was usually in Salem or Portland and they would have strategy meetings and discussion groups and they would make recommendations to the governor's commission which would make recommendations to the legislature and turned to legislative things that related to kids. You never know how much this effectiveness is but at least the kids had a chance to make an input and adults would listen to them. And I think it's a very effective way to work with young people.

EU: And did you use some of these same strategies in leadership training with other groups?

GK: Absolutely. This was the same type of thing you did with PTAs and granges and so on. The concept is similar for every group. The experience is different but the kind of things as you look at the concepts of communications, stage of group growth, leadership styles, these kinds of things, democratic versus autocratic or parliamentary procedure, free speech or what not, all of these kind of concepts worked for all age groups. Some organization because of legal ramifications need to use more control because if you're allotting money, you have to have a vote but if you're just having a general discussion to plan, you don't need to be as ridged. And so you try to adapt the kind of things a group does to what the group needs are. And this is the kind of training where we tried to give them choices like how do you operate in your group? And I think every group has a time where it can relax its rules and function pretty freely.

[0:35:50]

EU: And did you travel around state?

GK: I did. I worked the entire state. I had requests from counties and also had the granges, we had grange lecture school. Also at this time the legislature asked with Senate Bill 10 and Senate Bill 100 which were the bills that initially started the land-use planning and zoning in Oregon, the legislature asked that the Extension help local people organize to carry out this land use planning and setting of river and growth boundaries and these types of things because the law gave local people the say without the experts telling the local people what to do and I think it's typical that if people help plan what happens they are much more likely to go along with it rather than have any outsider come in and tell you how it has to be done. And so we organized on a county basis a few workshops.

EU: When was this?

GK: This would have been in the '70s when we did this, I would have to look at my calendar for the exact dates as to when it was but even today you know a senate bill 37 and measure 37 and measure 49 the issue of relating land-use planning is still going on and it's a significant thing. But I think Extension did a good job at helping the committees. There were times when it wasn't well accepted because sometimes they would blame Extension for what the legislature had done with the law.

EU: Because you weren't exactly training for the zoning?

GK: No we were not. We were just training for the processes and how people organize and how to use committees and subcommittees to get things done. And I think once they understood our role, I think most people were very accepting of the kind of thing that Extension was doing.

EU: How did you sell agricultural farmers on the idea of zoning?

GK: Well I think once they look at the fact that when your land is taxed at different rates based on what it is zoned, farmers recognize that "if I am going to continue to be a farmer and profit margins are narrow anyway, if they tax my land on the fact that its sitting next to a development and it might be developed, then I can't afford to farm." So I think farmers, most of them recognized that if we're zoning as a good thing for agriculture and forestry and any area that needs to have its tax based on what it's doing and producing not for houses and I think most farmers eventually accepted the fact that zoning is a good thing for us, unless you want to sub-divide your land, then it's not so good.

EU: Can you talk a little bit more about your reception? How did people receive you coming from Corvallis telling them what to do?

GK: Well you know there is an old joke about the Extension Specialist's role versus the county agent's role and we used to tell it they say "when a specialist comes in and huffs and puffs and then the leaves all the ground work to the county agents who are left there" and I still think one of my experiences relating this was the fact that one of ladies who was on the state commission who is overseeing the zoning process was in a county that wasn't doing anything. There were two counties still to start the process and she said "Glenn would you come down and talk about how you involve local people in planning for zoning?" and of course I had designed about a 45 minute presentation, she introduced me and after I made my presentation and of course even during this session some of them wanted to blame Extension for the law and I said you got to look at your state legislators, they did the law, all we're trying to do is help you implement what they're doing. And nobody would preside, I tried to turn it back to the local people so over the next hour, we had a discussion about the merits of land-use planning versus the law and what local people can do about it. And it wouldn't stop and here the radio people were there and the newspaper was there.

So finally two county commissioners, one had spoken up as if he thought maybe they should do something, the other county commissioner hadn't said a thing and I did what some people say is not always a nice thing so I just pointed my finger at the county commissioner who had said something and I said "did I hear you say you're willing to organize a committee to start land-use planning" and his mouth kind of dropped and he kind of stuttered "well I guess so" so I pointed to the other commissioner in the back who hadn't said a thing and he nodded "yes, he would" and so this then, some would say a nasty way to get them to commit publically that they would start some things in the county which eventually came. And it's still the old adage you know, they may not have been happy with the specialist who was there doing the training but they still weren't that unhappy with their county agents who there to work with them. And I think they were well received, the county agents. The specialist does a good job whether its leadership or livestock or crops or family living or accounting or so on. And the job basically is to go in and educate and usually it's to train people, sometimes it's just to train the agents who then trained the people.

[0:40:38]

EU: I think there was one time where there was a reporter overheard?

GK: Oh yes, well you know when we did some training, when we did some of our early training the director required that every Extension staff member in the state of Oregon participate in the training. So I and a team people did training throughout the state and one of our training sessions was in Eugene and we had a specialist who was not over enthused about having to participate in the training. So he told the newspaper people this was going on and it just so happened one of our breakout rooms was in the local bar in one of the motel convention centers and of course the newspaper made quite an issue about having a training session in the bar. And of course the bar was not being used as a bar while we were there, it was a breakout room for a small discussion group but it did make good news. But ultimately people accepted the fact that sometimes you use the facilities you have and in Eastern Oregon I still think some of the best places that you get food is in the small taverns in the communities. You don't worry where you hold your meetings; you do it where the best facilities are. This is what we did but it did make us some bad press for a little time but I think once the other news media found out about it, they accept the fact that nothing was wrong with holding a meeting in a bar at night to do some training.

EU: So this is the type of work then that you did?

GK: I did. I spent almost twenty years as a leadership development specialist. At the same time, because this was a joint appointment, the man who held the position before I did was a Bataan march survivor, Burton Berger, his health failed so he asked they said Glenn was the logic that he said, so they hired me to do that so I taught classes part time and did the leadership training part time. So I had what they called a joint appointment, an academic appointment as well as an Extension appointment. Both faculty positions at Oregon State.

EU: Could you talk a little bit the organization then, this joint, this dual appointment?

GK: The one thing that I think has been the strength at Oregon's Extension program is that they have felt the great need for the Extension Specialist and even the county specialists to tie with the academic discipline on campus. There are some states where there Extension Specialists are housed in one building where it's just Extension. And in many states, they don't have academic rank. But as an educator and Extension faculty member in Oregon, county or state specialists have academic rank and they are part of the system. And if you're going to keep up to date, if you're going to be an expert in your field, you need to work in your academic discipline. And I know when I first did my teaching and Extension Specialist job; I was in the College of Agriculture. Well none of the subject matter I taught was agriculture and so over a two year period I finally convinced the College of Ag. that maybe it was a good thing if part of my appointment was in the College of Education. And you know it's not easy for colleges to give up money to another college but they finally said "this made sense" because what I was doing was education, it wasn't agriculture. And I actually was a forerunner of other assignments like the 4-H department, it now in the College of Education at Oregon State, not in Agriculture. The others were more logical. When you have crop sciences it's Agriculture, marine science though is in the College of Oceanography not Agriculture even though some of the money does come through Agriculture although now that Oregon State is a land grant, sea grant, air grant university, it has all three of these coming through. Almost every college on the campus, whether it's engineering or home economics or agriculture, forestry, they all share in what Extension is doing in education off-campus.

EU: So you had this joint appointment then, could you talk a little about that? You were in Department of Education?

GK: Well we called it Extension Education, it was a department in the College of Education in the Department of Post-Secondary Ed., it was kind of a program area in the department of Post-Secondary Ed. in the College of Education. And my leadership development responsibilities still was in the College of Agriculture because there wasn't a leadership component per se in the College of Education so I had this joint appointment. Say you have two or three bosses, kind of nice because you know you can kind of do what you like cause neither boss knows what your exactly doing, except they want to know your results and this is what counts, what are your results. And at that time I think I was doing my job fairly well.

[0:45:38]

EU: Was this about the time that you went for your Ph.D.?

GK: I did. Oregon was having some administrative changes and they asked me if I would try doing work at the University of Oregon instead of elsewhere because the area I wanted to go in was leadership development, adult ed, group process, social psychology, so on. But it really wasn't the best place for me; Eugene's Sociology department is pretty much classic sociologists. And leadership is more applied rural type of sociologists and social psychology. So I ended up at Arizona State to get my doctorate and actually I had been doing much of this training before I went to do my doctorate. But on the other hand, with many specialists you feel you need the pedigree if you want to call it that, if you're going to deal with the kind of things you're dealing with on an academic setting.

EU: What was your position then in the Department of Education?

GK: It was in post-secondary education, this included community colleges. What was my position? Most of the time I was a program leader but towards the end of my career I ended up being a department chairman in post-secondary Ed. By this time I had retired from Extension and was working just part time for the university.

EU: Oh okay, so when did you retire?

GK: From Extension in 1982, from the university in 1992. So it's been a few years since I have been employed as such, although I still do a lot of volunteer work with the Oregon State University Retirement Association, career days, I work on committees with Extension, these types of things, still doing that type of thing.

EU: So then you were the chairman of Post-Secondary Ed.?

GK: Yes, twice I served as department chairman under two different deans. These were in times when money wasn't flush and you know and it's not always easy to be a tired department chairman when money isn't flush and there were certain other reasons why I chose both times to step down as department chairman and go back to teaching classes which I enjoyed.

EU: So what kind of courses then did you teach?

GK: We had a basic course which was called Extension Methods 411, which looked at the history of the organization, basic structure of the Extension as part of a land grant university system. Then we had a methods class which went into what are all the types of teaching methods you might use in an educational program like an adult education or a youth education program. And again in a typical class you don't think of newspaper as a teaching method but in Extension you think of radio, television, and newspapers as teaching methods and newsletters. These were the kind of things that I taught. Again I was a firm believer that you learn methods by doing methods so we used video tape record/replay on all the sessions, students had to evaluate themselves teaching others and seeing themselves as others saw them. Then we also had an international component because many countries have tried to duplicate what the United States has done with the land grant universities system and it has worked to a certain extent but it's biggest weakness is that the education of Extension is usually in a department of agriculture or secretary of agriculture not tied with an educational institution. And frequently then, even though agriculture may be political in nature, the education part of it shouldn't be.

And that's been one of the strengths of it in the United States, being at home at a land grant university throughout the United States it can keeps itself up partly out of politics but in developing countries and even in some of the developed countries, it's not an easy thing to do. And we had a major component, at least a third of the students I had were graduate students coming from overseas and from Taiwan and Poland, Tunisia and India, Latin America, Central America and one of the things that I always preached is I said "if the best thing you can do is try to get your program tied to a university it would be the best thing you could do for your country but it's not an easy thing to do because people have to give up money or transfer money elsewhere but it's one of the strengths of an educational program like Extension."

EU: Were these students when they went back to their home countries successful?

GK: Some of them were, some of them were not. I can still remember we had a project, Extension did, when we had on site people in Tunisia and I think we had twelve to fifteen young men and remember in an Arab country it's the young men who are doing these kind of things. They actually came to Oregon State and got masters degrees and were mostly very competent students but when they went home, the reality was two things, first of all they didn't have the family, political connections to take the jobs they were trained for and secondly it was very political in nature. Some of them did succeed though by going to other countries and working for the United Nations. In fact one of the young men is still in Oregon and he stayed on and is living in Oregon and doing things here in Corvallis to be honest. But it's not an easy thing. You can't adapt a program for one country or another in the same package, it has to be different and that's one of the things that has been a real problem. And I'm still an advocate and I know some people didn't like but I still said the worse thing we did was bring him here, we should have gone to their country and taught them how to teach in Tunisia rather than bringing him here to see how we taught in the United States. But I couldn't adapt the course for Tunisians only because I had a mixed group but the best thing would have been for us to go there and teach them in their culture and their setting to adapt an educational program.

[0:51:27]

EU: Did you have the opportunity then to travel overseas?

GK: I did. I had a couple of experiences, one was in Tunisia. I went over and taught for over two or three weeks, their young Extension staff. Ones that didn't come here but some were training there. And anyways I was teaching through an interpreter and I think it was a good session. You always wonder how well it goes. We had some Peace Corps volunteers that actually did the interpreting because French is the language in Tunisia. And I think the general consensus was that it was good because one of the concepts we used and one that I... they may reestablish the course at Oregon State and then we'll go right in but with the social action process is one of the concepts it looks how change takes place within a social system. And it doesn't matter whether the social system is a family which is the simplest social system to whether it's the whole world which is the worldwide social system. There are certain steps that a change goes through depending on who identifies it, who educates for it, the kind of methods that can be effective and this is one of the models that we used in Tunisia and think these young men could see that in their culture, how do you identify a legitimizer, especially if they're informal. You can identify formal legitimizers because they're elected to positions but how do you know who's that guy behind the scenes calling the shots. And these aren't things you talk about and which methods worked better with which clientele groups.

And the fact that, with change, it's a process, you may get so far in the process and then you may have to go back and look at hey what did we miss back here. And the social action process is one of the concepts that I would preach till the day I die, that if people want to change and educate, they need to understand that kind of thing, you may know how to do one problem and solve it well but when a new problem comes along you have a different audience, you got different legitimizers, it takes different techniques maybe. And some people want to do the same thing over and over again and think it works well it doesn't always work that way. And this is one of the concepts we've used very successfully. We did it in Lithuania the same way when we went on an overseas volunteer assignment and the culture is much different in Lithuania versus Tunisia and the same, we had a group in Taiwan and Oregon State had a contact with Thailand and the different cultures determined different ways to do things. And it's a real challenge but is one that is possible to do I think.

EU: When did you go to Lithuania?

GK: Lithuania was 1984, spent three weeks there in the dead of winter, didn't see one green blade of grass and frigid conditions, teaching young Extension program, not too much removed from Russian domination. And for the first time, although even under Russian rule, women had a more significant role in Lithuania then they did in a country like Tunisia. And I would suspect that at least half of the young Extension students starting out in Lithuania were women. And they were making a significant effort and I think I'd be interested in going back now to see what's happened in the fifteen, twenty years since we've been there.

EU: Let's take a break here.

GK: Okay, fine.

[0:54:50]

Elizabeth Uhlig: This is part three of the interview with Glenn Klein. Glenn could you talk a little bit about your involvement at the University, I believe you said that you were involved with faculty governance?

Glenn Klein: Yes, we have a faculty senate at Oregon State comprised of elected faculty from the different colleges and I was one of the first people (because of my joint appointment) elected to the faculty senate as a representative. Then I was elected to the executive committee of the faculty senate and ultimately to the inter-institutional faculty senate which is a group of faculty from all of the colleges and universities within the state system of our education and meets to discuss mutual problems. And it was a real experience for me to be involved in this but also it gave Extension a face amongst some researchers in others areas and teachers who had no idea of what a land grant was even because many of the faculty come from liberal arts institutions or private schools that don't understand what Extension about the land grant, sea grant, air grant philosophy is. So it was a real benefit I think to Extension and it certainly was to me. And I think the administration accepted the fact that it was taking some of my time from my job but I helped play a role there and it was a significant role I think in looking at what happens. Also I helped from the standpoint of when we transferred funds from Agriculture to Education accepting the fact that this is an educational program, not just a subject matter, agricultural kind of program.

EU: Could you expand of that a little bit, give sort of a historical overview to sort of the changes that you saw in the Extension Service?

GK: Well you know Extension, its ties really starts with agriculture and its backbone and I think 4-H came in second and you got to recognize that some would say that 4-H started because some of the bone-headed farmers wouldn't learn so you teach the kids who then may teach their dads or moms and of course I think this is what happened. But what they soon found was that, there are educational needs by people in the community that aren't serviced by any formal system, whether they are of a teaching age or whether they are older and I think this is what happened to Extension that this is why land grant system became air grant, sea grant as well because they recognized fishermen needed training, foresters needed training. I still haven't understood the full role of what the air grant university is in terms of the space above us but it's happened since I retired. But the idea that education should not be confined to the classroom and that because Extension in most states has a county office in each county that you can extend an educational system to that and in some cases it isn't only the land grant university, we're cooperating with other universities for them to feed in education or community colleges too and to Extension audiences in the community. No one system has the rights to only be the one to do it but the fact that people need an education... now I'm sure that in some cases television hits with some of the newer educational programs on television but still there are things that I don't think are being covered in a depth that is necessary to help people. And I think this is where Extension comes in and the needs change over time. We joked "did you realize that in the early years people thought tomatoes were poisonous?" and most of us now think "good grief how can they possible think that?" but this is how canning tomatoes, you had to convince people that tomatoes were good source of Vitamin C during the winter when you didn't have fresh fruits in the northern parts of the United States.

And so cultures change and systems change and I think this is what Extension has tried to do. But also the demand has been there just like with land-use planning and zoning, we're not the experts in it but we help the transition in terms of who do you bring in the experts to do the teaching to an audience. And this is what I think Extension has tried to do and groups have made demands on either county commissioners or governors or other people official who said "well Extension ought to be doing this" and local people have said "this is where we want education in." You try to respond to this, providing this help. Now in some cases, the community colleges are doing this. In other cases it isn't a community college that can do this, and it's a team effort I think, education but I think Extension has a key role and will continue to do so. But it will not be strictly agriculture, or home ec., or 4-H, it will expand into other areas and it will service these. It will still continue to serve those areas and this sometimes presents a little resentment because the agricultural farmer says "well I don't see that county agent as much as I need to, he's off helping somebody else you know," well these other people have a right to education too. And this is what I think some of the audience has to accept that we may be doing a more diverse audience than we have in the past.

[1:00:15]

EU: So do you think the vision that someone like Frank Ballard had is still relevant today?

GK: I do, I really do. I think that, some may say he was still of the old school but I still think his vision, I know his vision was much, much beyond that. He was not hide-bound by restricted groups that this is the only group you can deal with. I'm not sure it would be as easy for him to operate based on his background at the day because in those days, you didn't have to go through all the hoops we'd say like hiring, affirmative action and diversity. In those days if you wanted to hire a guy, you hired him. Nowadays, Frank might say that slows him down and it probably would but I still think he saw the vision ahead of what Extension was many things to me, many people. On the other hand you can't be all things to all people, you still have to pick specialties and areas where you're strong in to serve and let other people serve in other areas.

EU: Some of the other leaders, could you say a little bit about Esther Taskerud and Winnifred Gillan.

GK: Esther Taskerud and Winnifred Gillan. Yeah those were two of my favorite you know. They were both state specialists when I was in 4-H as a student and they were the ones who really got me involved in the international farm youth exchange. And Winnifred for years maintained, Winnifred Gillian Fulmer is her married name, Winnifred is 96 still living in California and she was the key person for 8-10 years with the IFYE program in Oregon. And then she moved into the College of Home Ec., she was the head advisor there. But she still has a strong tie and has communication from IFYEs. Winnifred just gave up her email computer system so now she's doing a few straws by long hand but at 96, there very short. But I know I've had some New Zealand IFYEs email me recently and say "what's happening to Winnifred, she doesn't answer her email," well she doesn't have her email but they sent her a pencil note and they got a short note back. But she was a key one along with Esther Taskerud. These were two ladies that were significant in the roles they had, Esther eventually became the leader of the Home Economics Extension in the state of Oregon. They were strong people and a delight to work with.

EU: Could you talk a little about your involvement in national organizations?

GK: You know being on the state staff usually you have a responsibility beyond the state and I for a number of years served on the Western 4-H Regional Committee and we used to meet usually in Denver because it was geographically easier to get there than coming to Corvallis or to Montana or to Arizona and this again these were strategy groups that met and discussed the kind of things that were mutually strong or should be developed for 4-H. Also I got involved with some what we say community resource development programs where a contract might be let to study a particular segment economic growth or leadership development or process and one university would have a contract but then other university faculty were involved in overseeing what they were doing. And I got involved in several of these, one was out of Hattiesburg, Mississippi and that was, being a north-westerner this was an education to visit the solid south, I had been in Texas but not the real solid south. But it was fun to rub elbows with Extension Agents from other counties or specialists from other states and to look at the kind of research that was being done. And research and Extension, especially in the areas I was dealing with, tended to, some would say be more esoteric or it isn't the kind of research like you plant a seed and it grows, you fertilize it and it grows much more. You're dealing more with people things, planning and programming and economic development or group process leadership and these kind of things, which is less exact in a science but still you need to do some studying to see how people relate and how their backgrounds help them achieve things and do things. Human development or you know family growth patterns and things like these, I think these are the kinds of things that were enjoyable to work and help research on.

[1:05:46]

EU: Have you been involved with the Oregon 4-H center?

GK: Well when I was on the staff we actually, well I spent many hours with Cal Monroe and Burton Hutton was a state 4-H leader and we spent many hours visiting sites because when you're telling about establishing a state center, you know almost everybody would like to have it in their backyard, you know how that is. And we went to Douglas County, we went the coast, we went to Eastern Oregon, Central Oregon. But one of the critical things you really need a center that's close to where the population is and when we had such a great offer from Stewart in terms of selling the property he had in Polk County, it was difficult not to accept it and so during the time I was on the staff under Burton Hutton's leadership we negotiated with the Stewarts to purchase the land. And I remember on that piece of property, the Stewart family's daughter was involved in art and they had an old barn there that I'll swear had five different stories in it with five different geographic locations and lofts and it was the most unsafe, unsightly thing you ever saw but what a delight to get kids in. I know for a number of years as a leadership development... actually I trained the Oregon State University student leaders and we would go up to the 4-H center to train them and the barn was one of their delights. These kids were mostly urban kids, a few rural kids in student government or university like Oregon State but these urban kids getting this old barn and seeing the artwork that the artist had left there and these kinds of things, it was kind of fun. But the 4-H center's been a tremendous thing; the work we've done, the cooperation with the Y and other groups that can use the facility, it is really a tremendous center and the work that had been done by Alberta Johnson and others in developing and raising money for it, it's become a significant place youths in the state of Oregon.

EU: Some of your other activities, could you talk a little bit about the Steak and Chop?

GK: Steak and Chop that was a group that was organized in the 30s and these were the leaders of agriculture in the state of Oregon. Whether it was a lobbyist, the director of Ag., the dean of the college of Ag., a prominent farmer, these were the people that made decisions. And as you know in those days and even through, I suspect, the 50s, many decisions were not made in the legislature or in open meetings as such, they were made by social gatherings and get-togethers. And I think this is what Steak and Chop provided and regrettably Steak and Chop just this past year disbanded. But again, times have changed and the leadership, things are done differently and the power that a core group and in fact they frequently had to make these kinds of decisions, it doesn't exist today like it did then. But I know that the director of Extension, a lot of them had cabins at the coast and they would go and spend three days there, eating and drinking and playing poker and discussing politics and making major decisions on agriculture and where is Oregon going. Now that's not the case, these decisions are not made in those kinds of circles much anymore. Some say its good, some say it's not good, depending on your feeling about this but it was a fun group, a good social group and I think many of the people that are involved in that group will continue to social and play golf together. But the decisions are not made that way anymore in this day and age.

EU: And you kept the records?

GK: I did. I was what they called "the little chop" for ten years, the little chop is really the secretary, treasurer, I kept the records, the minutes, the dues, the money, communications and all that. But that it got to the place that it seemed appropriate that Steak and Chop be retired. I and it retired.

EU: But when you retired though, you didn't really retire?

GK: Oh no, cause I'm still a volunteer in Oregon. I still do things on campus; I've been a member of the Oregon State University Retirement Association, been on their board of directors, I volunteer on campus, assisted career days and assisted tours. You have training that then you help conduct tours with other departments, I belonged to Kiwanis Club and we do a number of community service activities. One of our best is a grab bar programs where we put in grab bars for the elderly and disabled who need assistance. Most of the older homes don't have grab bars but it's a real safety issue. I helped with Meals on Wheels, do a little gardening at a highway park area just south of town and so I keep busy, you know I think this is typical of many Extension people that they are used to volunteering and I think this is just kind of the nature of people who have been involved in a program like Extension that they continue to do things as long as their health permits, long beyond their paid days.

[1:09:56]

EU: Do you still see other retired Extension...?

GK: Absolutely, we have three or four in our Kiwanis club, I see them on events on campus and one good thing the university I think under James Jenson has what they call a "Strawberry 25 year Club" so people who work 25 years or more are invited back to campus every year and they have an emeritus session on campus so you do get to meet and see and Extension has some things where they invite their old timers who retired to participate, at a barbeque or a meeting, an annual conference at Extension events, so you get to see and meet and visit with old timers and share stories and at times contribute with ideas and work on committees that they had to help supplement what Extension is doing by the professionals, the active professionals I should say.

EU: And your family is still in the area?

GK: Yes, most of my family residues in Salem from Eugene. I have a few who are up in Washington and Utah but most of them are in the Valley here and we get together for a family... one side of the family we have cordially birthday parties, you can't have a birthday party for everybody when you get up to 40 people or so, you have cordially ones and Christmas Eve and Christmas Day are spent with two different sister's families, one in Albany and one in Salem. And we have 20 to 30 to 40 people together and have a good Christmas together.

EU: So you're a native Oregonian?

GK: I'm a native. I was born in Salem, really grew up in Aumsville and I've had my big city experience in Washington, D.C. and Phoenix, Arizona and I've visited many other cities and I've traveled overseas and I'm still a small town farm boy as I say it, I love Corvallis, it's a small enough town, you can walk. I live close to campus, I walk to many events on campus. I'm a Beaver through and through, I like sports and it's been a good year, the last few, with football and baseball and so on. The cultural things too that the college campus offers you and most of its free, music in the MU and lectures at LaSells Stewart center and these kind of things so it's a great community and you don't worry getting caught in a traffic jam getting there you know.

EU: When you look back on your career in the Extension Service, what do you think is the most important thing that you've done, what are you proudest of?

GK: Well you know I think probably the things I did in teaching with leadership is probably it and the reason I say it is that I still have had and you see I've been retired from Extension over twenty some years and now and again I'll meet somebody who says "Glenn, I still have some of that material you gave at a leadership workshop" and of course because I was a methods teacher as well, I felt that when you gave a lecture, the mind operates so much faster than you can write and take notes on so I always provided handouts and I said you might want to take a few notes but I've got a handout or I maybe would have a fill-in handout, fill in this when you come to it. But this reference material is still being used by many people and it makes you kind of proud and when you hear things like the first Baptist church here in Corvallis they had raised money to build an addition and no success on design and agreeing on it, well we did a leadership workshop for them and the social action model was one of the key concepts and the church leader said "Glenn, can we..." I had this on about a sixteen foot Velcro board spell out this whole model and he said "Glenn can we borrow this cause we want every one of our church committees to meet in front of this to see where our problems are, what we haven't done, where we need to do again and what not." And I always say you know when you have a group come to say "Glenn this helped us" it makes you feel good. Now and then I'll have a student say I took your class years ago and appreciate what you did and well it makes you feel good when you get this kind of response.

EU: So if I ask you about your legacy, that's...

GK: Well, if you're going to have one yeah. You know the truth is in addition I'm setting up a trust to help family and also the university, 4-H and athletic community service to encourage athletes and this is one thing that I you know didn't talk about this but I've been a Beaver as I've said "sports nuts" you know. And one of the athletic directors said "from now on every athlete must do community service at Oregon State" and I said "okay if they'll do that then I'll provide some scholarship support" which I've been doing and I've set my trust up, so this is going to continue after I'm gone, that in essence tells kids that doing community service is part of growing up and living. And the thing that interested me the first few years, the rowers, the golfers and so on, some of these community service. When we finally got to a football or basketball player I said we're there because usually the minor sports isn't such a big deal but when we finally got to major sports winning a community service award, this said to me "well maybe we are getting through to these kids that you do some things." And I, you know, it's a thing but it's kind of nice to say you maybe helped pushed this a little bit and I really didn't expect that I would get some recognition from this and I merely wanted to provide a scholarship but they named an award, a "Benny" after me as they called it for the annual athlete awards night for community service. And all I did was want to give them some support but well the galls in the department said "Glenn this is worth something" so I now have a Benny named after me on campus.

[1:15:59]

EU: Well are there other things you think we should have talked about?

GK: No I think pretty much we've covered things that I think were important. I'm sure I'll think of something else. Did we mention, we did mention that the other countries tied with agriculture rather than the educational universities, I think we did mention that. I guess if there is a weakness now in Extension, to me, it's the fact that with some of the younger people it's more of a job than a profession. And I don't know why we just say in my day but when I first went to work, we worked five and a half days a week that was our paid week but studies showed we were putting 66 hours a week, that's what a typical Extension worker did. Well nowadays you couldn't get people to work 66 hours a week and a lot of this you did because you were part of the community. So if I was asking a volunteer to put in extra hours teaching 4-H kids or leading an Extension study group or something, why don't I volunteer a little of my own time and I guess this is the spirit I have while I am volunteering now in retirement because if I was being paid to get volunteers to do things and I don't give back a little bit too you know and I don't see that as much in some of the young, some of them still have it, but some of them it's just a profession and they'll work there for eight hour days. And I recognize that Extension, the family has to accept this and one of the things that I know with families is that it was kind of tough sometimes, the wife and kids. But the key thing I know with 4-H, one of the things I always said was "well, the family needs to go to achievement programs and the kids need to be in 4-H and you got to be careful so that your kids aren't winning all the prizes if you're a county 4-H agent but the kids ought to be part of it and then the family feels and the community feels that your family is part of our community." And I think this is something it's not always an easy thing to do.

EU: I know in some of the other oral history interviews that I've done, everyone is retired and is volunteering. They are involved in the wider community. So I think it's a real trait for Extension Service.

GK: When you see the opportunities, you see I live in an apartment building where there are 47 other apartments, well when it comes to moving time, especially students that are throwing things away. And so what I did encourage them to do was recycle, "let me help you" and we have a place here in Corvallis called the Vina Moses Center named after a lady who started this years ago, giving used clothing to needy people. Now it's a huge center here in town and I'll be helping deliver Christmas packages and foods at the end of this week. But here the kids were throwing it away so I say "hey, let me throw it away to the proper place, you know" and so it's recycled. And it helps and I think it also helped the kids recognize it; you don't just throw this stuff away because you don't have any use for it anymore. It's got some value to it, even though it's used. And the center is set up so that - in the early days we found people who were taking stuff from the Vina Moses Center then selling it to the second hand stores, something like this. But now that you can only come so often, you can only take so much and you have to be referred by a church or social service agents or something else. So there are some ways to try to help reduce that but it still goes on, don't get me wrong. But it really provides a service that is needed that the government isn't doing and so the community does. And I think this is typical of the kind of things that many Extension Agents do. In fact, some of the people now on the board again, I was on for a while, are Vina Moses Extension people. Alice Mills Morrow retired legal beagle for Extension is on the board and Erma Sargent who was our fiscal officer for Extension on the board. So these are the kind of people that you associate with and you still see in volunteering.

EU: Okay, so thank you very much.

GK: You're welcome, it's been a pleasure.

[1:20:28]