Chris Petersen: Okay, this is our second interview with George Arscott, and today is December 5th, 2014. We'll get into your OSU faculty days here in a second, but you wanted to talk about the early origins of your interest in tennis, and how that's blossomed over the course of your life.

George Arscott: Well, it's interesting, because tennis has been a major part of my retirement career, but I got involved in tennis when I was about seven, when my father took me out to the plantation tennis court at O'okala, and taught me the basic fundamentals of tennis on a very rough concrete tennis court. And I learned that if I fell on that tennis court, I'd leave a bunch of hide behind me, so I was very careful. But I played tennis there growing up, and then when I was in school in Honolulu, I guess I was on the tennis team at one point in time.

And then, once I left Hawaii in 1939, I didn't touch it again until about 1958, when Dr. Arthur Wu, who was a reproductive physiologist in animal science, found out that I played as a youngster, and he coaxed me into coming back. And we played on the campus tennis courts twice a week, from 1959 till 1971 or '2—'71, I think it was, when Timberhill Racquet Club—and then I was a charter member of that until we moved up here, to Willamette View in 2000.

And since retiring from OSU, we moved to Sun City, and tennis was an integral part. I used to play six days a week. As I got older, six days became three days a week, and right now we're down to two regular days a week, and maybe a third day during the week. But I always have to let one day go between sets. But tennis has been a good source of exercise for me, and it's probably kept me in the somewhat relatively good shape that an old 90-plus-year-old finds himself in.

CP: Yeah. Now, did you know Paul Valenti or Irwin Harris? They were both tennis guys.

GA: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Valenti—oh, now, Valenti was our neighbor when we lived in the Harding district, but there was another fellow that was involved with tennis from OSU, and his name starts with an "M," and I can't think of what it was. But they were both involved with—well, at least one of them was involved in Timberhill Racquet Club. Right now, I'm suffering from a problem of sciatica from tennis, but I'll probably get over it, and get back to tennis again.

CP: Yeah. We had the opportunity to interview Paul Valenti, before he passed away, for this project.

GA: Ah, yes.

CP: So he was neighbors with you then, huh?

GA: Yeah, we lived on 32nd Street. He lived across the alley, facing 31st Street, for a number of years.

CP: Uh-huh. Yeah. Any memories of Paul in particular?

GA: The only memories I have—I remember he was an avid tennis player, but as basketball coach, I thought he was awful rough on some of his players.

CP: [Laughs] I've heard that, yeah.

GA: Huh?

CP: I've heard that.

GA: Okay, well, I'm glad I'm not the only one. But I was a little surprised, but he was always very nice to deal with, as far as I was concerned, over the years.

CP: Yeah. Did you know Irwin Harris? He was a tennis coach for a while, as well, and a longtime Corvallis resident.

GA: That one doesn't ring a bell. The fellow that I'm thinking about was in the same—probably in the same department. [0:05:04]

CP: Uh-huh. Something that I wanted to ask you in our first interview that I forgot to do so was: did you have an experience of the Great Depression in Hawaii, or was the sugar plantation sort of insulated from that?

GA: We did not experience what you experienced up on the mainland. There were not widespread closures. There were salary cutbacks. But I don't think very many, and I want to say "if any," were actually fired, or let go, or whatever. See, on the plantations in those days, the plantations provided housing, of course, in camps, and things were provided pretty much. People would have gardens. And so other than the fact that salaries were cut, the plantations continued to operate. And so the answer is no, it didn't hit us as hard as it hit you on the mainland.

CP: Mm-hm. Well, let's move on to OSU, and the beginning of your academic career there. So it sounds to me like you had always intended to come back to Oregon State after you left for your graduate training at Maryland, but the intention was always to come back to Oregon State. Is that correct?

GA: I think that's a reasonable statement, although there were some possibilities. I could have gone with a commercial company or two, because I had been approached by them, to find out if I was interested in pursuing it, and I indicated a slight interest, but I never followed through with it.

CP: Mm-hm.

GA: But, see, the position essentially opened up just after I got back from the Korean—and just as I started my PhD.

CP: The position was open for a year or so?

GA: Well, there were two positions. They were first looking at me, I think, for not Dean Cooney's former position, but a newer position that had opened up in the department, and that dealt in the management area. Even though I did my work in nutrition, I had a pretty good management background, from my background experiences growing up, and working at OSU. In fact, that helped us, for example, when we were in the Yemen project.

CP: Right, which we'll get to in a little bit. So you came back in 1953, and you were an assistant professor in Poultry Husbandry?

GA: That's right.

CP: What were your duties in this initial position?

GA: Well, roughly three-fourths of my time was devoted to research, 20 percent of my time was devoted to resident instruction—I was teaching—and five percent of my time is the experiment-station equivalent of an Extension activity, and it was called "Technical Advisory Account." It allowed me to go out and work in the industry, just as it allows the Extension phase—if I had an appointment with Extension, I could use that phase to justify myself being out in the industry somewhere or the other.

CP: Mm-hm. You said you hadn't done much teaching at Maryland. Was that something that you came to fairly naturally?

GA: Well, I didn't have much trouble teaching, per se. I sort of moved into it quite easily. But I remember shortly after I got there, Dr. Parker, or Jess, said, "Hey, George!" He says, "We've got to go over to KOAC tonight to participate in a radio show." [0:10:00] I don't have the right name for it, but "Poultry Talk," something like that. It had been going on for years. It was either every two weeks or once a month; I forget.

And he says, "You be ready to go, and I'll pick you up at seven o'clock, and we go on air at 7:30." I said, "Well, don't we rehearse?" "Rehearse?" And he says, "We don't rehearse!" He says, "I've got a bunch of letters, and we'll answer the letters, period." "Well," I said, "don't you rehearse that?" "No, we don't rehearse that! We just go into it cold." And it was a very popular program. And the reason we know it was popular—there was something that occurred. We went off the air for some reason, and boy, we heard what for, for not being there 7:30 on Wednesday night! "What happened? We were waiting to hear what you had to say!"

CP: [Laughs]

GA: And then Arnold, the KOAC man, was the master of ceremonies, a fellow named Arnold Ebert. Well, I can't bring up the name. But he used to like to get us to argue with each other, and we would, but it was always very jocular, in a way. We didn't try to put somebody down, or anything like that. It's just a difference of opinion; that's it.

And that's one thing I've got to say, I'd like to get across, as far as the Poultry Department was concerned. We were a small department. We worked very closely together. We had hardly—maybe we'd have disagreements once in a while, but nothing to the extent that when push came to shove, we shoved all together. We weren't back-biting, and I think some of the other elements in the college were a little envious of us, because we never seemed to have personnel problems. I just thought I'd have to get that out.

CP: So this radio show is something you did regularly, for a while?

GA: Oh, yeah, we did it from 1953 until probably the mid-'60s, and by that time the little poultry people had disappeared from the scene. And there were the big boys, and they really didn't need it. And the reason—the letters that we used to get! Parker used to spend tremendous amount of time dictating answers to letters. He might spend a Saturday morning doing it, just one letter after the other. And they were written in such a way that, they weren't sent to somebody as, "Well, I've got to write it." He enjoyed doing what he was doing with them. And I hope I kept the same thing up, but to a much more limited extent, because by the time I came in to administration, those letters were down at a very low level. But if somebody with a backyard flock, for example, got a hold of us, and had some questions, we'd go out of our way to try to answer them to their satisfaction.

CP: Yeah. What sorts of classroom instruction were you doing during this time period?

GA: Well, I took over the Poultry Feeds and Feeding, which was a combination undergraduate Nutrition Management aspect, as it relates to feeding. That one I taught one quarter a year. I'd help periodically in the judging, poultry judging, only if they felt they wanted me. And then Dr. Peter Cheeke, from Animal Science, and I put together a course on Animal Poultry Nutrition [0:15:00], which got into biochemistry of nutrition to a greater extent than the courses in either department were doing up to that time. And we taught that from sometime in the mid-'60s on up to the time I retired in 1988, '87.

CP: Was the poultry judging through 4-H, or was that something on campus, in a classroom?

GA: No, it was strictly a judging course for poultry. We weren't doing any competition. We were showing them the pointers in judging poultry.

CP: Did you have any sense of when—you were gone for four years, from the time that you finished your undergraduate work, to the time you came back to OSU. Had the department changed much over the course of the four years, or was it still basically what you'd remembered it being?

GA: As far as I can tell, it didn't change that much. It hadn't changed that much. There was two positions that—both those positions that I mentioned had come vacant, and I took Wilbur Cooney's position, and Bill McCluskey took Larry Johnson's position, which was the first time—Larry was the first occupant of that particular position, which was directed pretty much in the management area. That individual would work with a nutritionist. Jim Harper, for example, was in charge of turkeys as a whole, but that didn't mean he wouldn't involve us. He had Nutrition, Physiology, and Management, with turkeys. Well, he'd involve us whenever he felt he needed some help, and we'd just move over and give him a hand.

Now, when I became department head, the department had a policy—or tradition, I guess—that the department head always taught the general course in Poultry. And I guess I had done that when Parker had to be away, for one reason or the other. I'd fill in for him, during my time there. Wilbur Cooney would fill in for him, during his time there. Well, anyway, the department head taught that course. Well, Jess did not retire. He came in one day, and he says, "I've got to ask you something. Will you allow me to continue teaching 121?" I says, "Be my guest!" He says, "I thought you might say that."

So he continued to teach it until he retired in 1977. And then I took over and taught that course, plus my Feeds and Feeding course, and we team-taught the Animal and Poultry Nutrition course together. And we had an agreement that both of us would be there, when he was lecturing or when I was lecturing. And it worked out very well, I thought. And even there, we'd get into a little argument, but that's the way it goes.

CP: [Laughs] Well, you mentioned that the major component of your job was research. And my understanding, from my preparation, is that you published something in 1953 that was pretty important. It went through four editions. A publication called Feeding, Laying, and Breeding Hens. Is that—?

GA: Well, that's the experiment-station bulletin—either Extension bulletin, or it could have been either one. At this stage, I don't remember if it was experiment—no, it would have been an Extension bulletin, where it was strictly a effort, in lay terms, to explain feeding and management of laying hens.

CP: It seems to have made an impact.

GA: And it was a carry-over from the previous people who had been through the department. [0:20:05] I think the number's the same number that's been there for years.

CP: Uh-huh. And so it sounds like it made an impact, if it went through four editions? Or am I misreading that?

GA: Yeah, I think it was just brought up—going through four issues, it was just brought up to date as things changed. I'm not really willing to say that it was something that was a tremendous contribution. It was already there. My first exposure to it just brought it up to date. It had been a while since it had been brought up to date, but it was apparently quite popular.

CP: Yeah. Well, what was some of your early research, that early research agenda that you set up when you first arrived?

GA: Well, the two things that I got into when I got back there was to work, one, with the Food Science Technology Department—Professor Lois Sather—on taste testing, as it related to poultry feeds, and whether or not the poultry feeds that were being consumed by poultry had an effect on the taste of the bird. And the answer turned out to be no. But apparently, Swift and Company had given a grant to the Food Science Department and ourselves to do this work for them, and we did it, and she and I worked together on it. That's one thing that I was able to do. I worked with her, for example.

I also worked with the Ag Chemistry people, because we kept some of that unidentified nutrient work going on at Oregon State. They would do the fractionation, and I would feed the birds, and we'd go in there. But at some point, we ran into too many problems that we weren't able to get it right down to where we wanted to.

The other thing that came up early on was there was an interest in: could we utilize barley in poultry rations? And up to that point, barley almost had some toxic properties associated with it. But we set up a series of studies with it, and then the people at—my colleagues at Washington State University—had got involved with enzyme work, and then we got involved with the enzyme work. So it was a quite a bit of effort in the utilization of barley, different types of barley, as far as the growing chick was concerned.

CP: Yeah. You did some work on alfalfa and wheat, also, didn't you, in feed?

GA: I don't remember exactly what we were doing with alfalfa, unless it had to do with pigmentation. But wheat—the only problem with wheat was we were dealing with a grain—wheat was superior to barley; there's no question about it. But wheat is also a food for human consumption, and cost-wise, it reflects that. And so while we were trying to make barley do what wheat could do—and that's where the enzyme component came into it, see, because if we provided that enzyme, that enzyme allowed a greater utilization of wheat, per se. I haven't thought about this stuff for years.

CP: [Laughs] So I have some notes here, just on the work that you've done, and the next thing I'd ask you about is the dwarf white leghorns?

GA: Oh, yes, with Dr. Bernier, Paul Bernier; the late Paul Bernier. Paul and I—he was a geneticist; he was one of my professors as a student. [0:25:00] In fact, Harper, Barker and Cooney were all my professors,. He and I shared a secretary, and we were officed right next door to each other at one point in time. And somehow, I guess, he had developed the bird, genetically. It's a sex-linked trait, but he had standardized it, is what I guess I'm trying to say. And we got to talking about, well, could this bird, if she lays the same size egg, do it more efficiently than the normal-size hen? Well, the answer is going to be yes. But if you do that to a bird, what have you done to its nutrient requirements?

And that's where he and I got into doing collaborative research, to see whether or not rations could be formulated that would support a dwarf hen to a better extent than they would a normal-sized hen. I don't know if you have reference there to the bulletin that he put out. There's a research paper that he put out, in the form of a bulletin, and it apparently was picked up by a lot of people, particularly industry people, breeders, elsewhere.

The biggest problem that I encountered with the dwarf layer—we got it to the point where it would do what we wanted it to do, but its eggshell quality was very, very critical. It did not seem to want to provide eggs with as thick a shell as it should. And we could add more calcium, obviously, but that was more of a problem that showed up. And we were a little disappointed, I think, when it really didn't take off to a greater extent than it has.

In a way, it led the way for the big breeders to not decrease their size with a sex-linked gene, as we had done, which is a one-shot deal. They have slowly decreased their body size through manipulation of a multiple number of genes. And I think they're not down as small as we were, but they're getting very close. And when two-thirds of the feed is used for maintenance purposes, if you can cut that out, you're saving quite a bit of feed.

CP: Was there a strong connection between the department and industry?

GA: A strong—?

CP: Connection between the department and industry?

GA: Oh, very much so. We were really noted for working very closely with the industry—all segments of the industry, which includes broilers, turkeys and layers. And when I retired, I received a call from the International Executive Service Corps group—committee, I guess it is. And they were asking me, "When you retire, would you be interested in volunteer work overseas?" I said, "Do you think you want somebody from academia, or do you want somebody from industry?" "Well," they said, "We know what you're talking about, but we know, from your standpoint, you're very much industry-oriented." So that's really what got me involved in that segment of my life after I retired, see?

CP: Yeah. So I'm guessing that industry people would come to the department from time to time, saying, "We have this particular problem. Can you work on it for us?"

GA: Oh, yeah. Yes, yes, yes. In fact, some of the awards you see there are from that orientation. [0:30:02] But we've been recognized, and I'm not the only one. Others in the staff have done the same thing.

CP: Yeah. Another research interest that you had was the connection between nutrition and fertility in male chickens?

GA: Yes. That goes back to Dr. Jess E. Parker. That was his. Artificial insemination was, essentially, his career. And with him there, I was able to take advantage of something that I knew very little about, artificial insemination, and he and I worked together quite extensively in that area. And to make a long story short, there were virtually no nutrients, per se, that would directly affect fertility, except possibly vitamin A or vitamin E, which, in turn, is an anti-oxidant. So I don't know whether that's a true nutrient effect or no. But we were doing some work that nobody else was doing with it, and I see that it's still quoted periodically. But we had quite a nice run on that one.

CP: Yeah. What was it like for you to all of a sudden be working with people that you'd had as teachers a few years before?

GA: Oh! [Laughs] First of all, everybody understood, but I was very uncomfortable when it came time—when I was given a document that I'm to evaluate Jess E. Parker, James Harper, Paul Bernier. And these were the people that were my mentors! Well, I think I handled it—I'm going back; I'm trying to remember. I think I handled it in this fashion, that when you had to bring them in to interview with you—and Paul, I says, "Paul, tell me what I'm doing wrong." And then we'd start talking, and we'd get along. And I generally gave him the forms—and I don't care who knows about it—to go ahead and help me with it. And I'd accept what they say, unless I really disagree, but I hardly ever, if ever, disagreed. And we got along very well on that point. I thought it was going to be terrible to have to evaluate Jess Parker, and it wasn't.

CP: Yeah. Tell me about supervising graduate students. You did quite a bit of that, didn't you?

GA: Yes. The first graduate student was—well, I guess the first one was a master's degree. The first PhD was a fellow from Thailand.

CP: There's a strong connection between OSU and Thailand.

GA: Yes. And unfortunately, he no longer is living. But I was able to keep in touch with him. And some of the satisfying parts of teaching, and working with these fellows, is every now and then, you get somebody that makes contact with you. Just about a month ago, I got an e-mail through LinkedIn. I'm not a great LinkedIn fan, but here was a fellow that had written me, and he says, "You probably don't remember me." Well, the minute I saw the name, I knew who he was. And he was an undergraduate, living on the south farm. And apparently I didn't realize I did that, but I was there during a trying part of his marital life. But everybody thought it was his problem [0:35:01], and not hers. I imagine two sides to everything, but it wasn't all this fellow's problem, and I gave him the support. And by golly, he wrote me, thanking me for standing by him. That allowed him to finish his degree. He wasn't a graduate student, though; he was an undergraduate.

But we've had good experiences with a lot of the students. One of them was a Paul Bernier student. He was from Iran; he came here under the Shah. He was working on a PhD. When the Shah was kicked out, all his funding stopped, and he was about to lose everything. Well, we scrambled around, and got him an assistantship, and then he used the bedroom in our basement. And we said, "You can have it for nothing." "No," he says, "I want $35 a month." That would be in the late '70s. He says, "I want you to allow me to do one thing: put a separate telephone line into your house." All right with me. And then he ate—we had a restriction. He couldn't cook where he was. He ate at the cafeteria; we were close enough to it.

And it worked out very well. I know why he wanted that line. He never made a call to Iran, but his parents called him, and he'd be on there talking to them for hours. That kept him going. When he finished, he got picked up by a company on a one-year basis, in Arkansas. They were looking for a geneticist, and they'd gone through two or three applicants, and they finally got him a green card. And he's the one, he finally ended up—the company was bought out by two other companies, and he ended up at Purdue Farms, and he just retired a year ago.

Well, he left us in 1981, and every year since 1981 he has called Betty on Mother's Day, except for two occasions, and those two occasions were when he was in Iran, visiting his family. And he very often calls us Christmas. And he says, "She's my American mother." What more can you ask?

CP: Yeah, that's nice. I'm guessing that most of the undergraduates in the department were from Oregon, Oregon kids, but it sounds like there was a strong international component to the graduate students.

GA: There were. See, we developed a—as time went on, poultry departments disappear. I know Washington. And so we had an arrangement where a student from Washington could come to OSU without out-of-state fees. Whether or not that has continued with the Animal Science group or no, I don't know. I thought at one time I saw something that indicated it might have, but I've never heard anything much more about it. But we worked pretty hard to get that, and there were several students that participated in that program over the years. But it wasn't used as much as I thought it might have been.

CP: Yeah. What was social life and community life like for you and your wife?

GA: Well, Betty didn't work, but she's a teacher. But she kept the boys going. And I think we noticed we had a good social life with the rest of the department wives. We'd all get together. Harper's, for example, had a place out in Yachats, and we'd go out there for picnics and that sort of thing. But we didn't do too much socially—and I don't know exactly why—with the university community. Most of our friends were non-university people, or non-OSU people. They may have had degrees elsewhere [0:40:00], but they were non—that's just the way it was.

For example, Betty had a very close friend. He's still living, but he's in a nursing home up in Washington, state of Washington, and she passed away. Well, the daughter's called us. She was in her 90s, like Betty is; this was this year. And could we attend a graveside service? Well, that was a red flag right off the bat for Betty, because she's handicapped, to that extent. And when I said, "I doubt that we'll get down to Corvallis," and she just broke down crying. It turns out, I know why. We did go. We were the only ones of that age bracket that was there. They were all younger people. But we went down. But Betty was very close to Ruth.

Our neighborhood was made up of a broad spectrum. There were OSU people in our neighborhood. It was a development, and we were all pretty close there, and some of us kept in touch as we moved on elsewhere. But we didn't belong at the country club or anything like that. I belonged to Timberhill in later years, and Betty was a member of the DAR, but that was about the extent of it.

CP: I understand you have a story about wild turkeys in Corvallis.

GA: Where'd you hear that?

CP: Faye Chadwell told me to ask you about wild turkeys.

GA: Oh! [Laughs] Yes. The story is this: there used to be a turkey producer in Prairie City, Oregon. He was, let's put it, quite an individual; had his own ideas. He had a complete system that went—he produced the eggs, he grew the chicks, he processed them. He fed them, he had the feed meal to do it with, and everything else. He was a completely integrated operation. But he stayed below the USDA radar, with the guidelines, most of the time. And he had the standard bronze turkeys, because he went back into the 1930s. He never adapted to the broad-breasted bronze turkeys. He never went to a white turkey. It was a bronze turkey. And his clientele in Prairie City accepted that.

So as he got older, he was getting ready to retire. He showed up one day with Professor Harper, and wanted to know, "Jim, would you be interested in some of my gene stock?" There's an interest in collecting genes—turkey genes, chicken genes, and so forth. Jim says, "Yeah, that'd be fine." It didn't dawn on him that he would get anything but a case of eggs, or something like that, see, and then he'd raise them out and sort them out, and see what it was all about. Well, at some point in time, here comes a truck with 150 adult turkeys from Prairie City. What do you do? Turn them around and send them home?

Well, I think Jim thought things through, and there's 40 acres on the turkey farm, and there was a little area that was sort of semi-forested, that had some range houses then. And he thought, "Well, maybe we can keep them there for a while, and sort of quarantine them there, and see how things go." Well, the turkeys had other ideas. They'd never been in a range house before, and he couldn't get them in the range house. They went up in the trees.

Well, the next day, Jim and his crew were out there catching turkeys. Well, out of the 150, I think he said they got about 75. So that means there's 75 turkeys disappeared. Well, then, as time went on, years and years [0:45:00], people kept saying, "You know, there are turkeys in Corvallis." And they're not too—the turkey farm, you know where it is, up in Timberhill. Here they were! And these friends of Betty's that I mentioned, Ruth—she would say, "We got a turkey that comes to the back door. He's slightly wild, but it's domesticated, too." Well, that's one of those, what we call Prairie City Ramblers. They're not wild turkeys; they're Prairie City Ramblers. I don't know if that really is the case or not, but I think it is.

CP: Uh-huh. [Laughs] That's funny. Well, in 1969, you became head of Poultry Sciences?

GA: That's right.

CP: How did that come about?

GA: Well, that came about because in 1968, Jess Parker had a heart attack, and he made one big mistake, as far as I'm concerned. He tried to come back too quick. And it was very obvious to us that—well, the heart attack was pre-dated with an automobile accident, in which he flipped a car on top of his wife. And he lifted the car up by himself, just about to get her out. And he got her out, and she wasn't—she was in a ditch, and it was on top of her. And he went to the doctor, because he lost the use of the muscles in one arm. Well, there was a reason he'd lost them. He'd ripped them, in his right arm. And it was then that they found out, they said, "You need to see a cardiologist, and you've got a problem with your heart." And sure enough, he got the arm fixed, but he could never write properly. And he struggled.

And so then he resigned, or he asked to step down, and I was asked to move up. And apparently, when they first approached me, I said, "I won't do it unless everybody agrees to it." Well, they'd already countered that one. They said, "Everybody says you're the person to do it." Thanks. I did not have ambitions of being a department head, but once I was given the assignment, I did as good a job as I could. But it really impacted my ability to do research.

CP: I'm sure. Yeah. That's a common question I have for people when they go into administration for the first time—

GA: Yes.

CP: —is you have to make that compromise.

GA: It cut back significantly, very significantly, because I had some ideas of what I wanted to do further in Dr. Parker's area, with male fertility and nutrition, but it never came about. Well, anyway, I became head at about the time when paper-pushing surged. And I remember Jess coming in to me one time. My philosophy was: try to avoid loading the staff with a lot of paperwork. I tried to do it. I worked long hours doing it, too. And Jess came in one day, and he said, "George," he says, "I want to tell you something. I've been critical about some of this paper that I see you running, pushing through here." He says, "I'm wrong." He says, "It's not you. You're just having to do it."

He said he thought that I was generating this sort of stuff myself. Well, he should have known better. But anyway, he came in, and he told me that he apologized, because he'd been critical. He says, "My sources tell me"—which are other department heads—that you don't blame George. "We all have to do this sort of stuff." But it was an adjustment, but I think I ran a pretty good department, when all things are considered.

CP: Do I understand correctly that there had been a fire the year before? You lost a building to a fire? Am I right about that? [0:50:00] In 1968?

GA: A fire? Oh, yeah. Yeah, the turkey farm. There was a fire at the turkey farm. That was about the time that the turkey brood house burned down.

CP: I have in my notes here that a new Poultry Research building was completed in 1976, and it was replacing the one that burned down.

GA: Yeah, right.

CP: So I would presume, anyway, that as department head, I'm sure was a big part of what you were up to during that time period.

GA: Yeah, but Jim Harper handled most of that. We used to leave Jim pretty much alone. He knew what he was doing, and if he needed help, he'd holler. But he took care—it was his ideas that went into that building, and he implemented them. He got things going. That was the nice thing about that department. Everybody pulled their own weight, but if they needed help, then they'd holler.

CP: So what was your sort of agenda as department head? Was it just basically to enable people to do their work as best as possible?

GA: That's right. You've got it. You hit it right on the head. And well, I remember—have you got anything in your notes about "The American West: Myth and Reality"? In 1973, the director of resident instruction sent Jim Oldfield, in Animal Science, and me, and other department heads a letter saying that "the University Honors Program was developing a course in The American West: The Myth and Reality, and you being in Poultry, you being in Animal Science, Jim, and etcetera, certainly have an awful lot of history to contribute towards this. Please check with your faculty and let us know who would like to take over."

So I checked with the faculty, and everybody says, "Oh, George, this is getting into—this is more stuff, and we already are loaded." So I wrote back and said, "Sorry, Steve. I can't make it." Get a telephone call from Steve, says, "Sorry, George. I've already committed you. And if you can't get your staff to do it, you're going to have to do it, and we all feel the same thing." So Jim and I were given the job of participating one night in the fall quarter of '73, the two of us together, over a three-hour period—an hour and a half each—on the poultry's contribution to history in Oregon, and that type of thing—or the west.

And so I became the reservoir for historical stuff, and this was in the spring, and it was to be in the fall, and I thought, "Oh." And Jim thought the same way, and sometime during late in the summer, Jim called. He said, "Do you suppose we ought to go to the first orientations? Maybe they'll cancel the course."

CP: [Laughs]

GA: You could see how enthusiastic we were. So we went—175, or something like that students signed up for it. We got out of there, and we said, "My gosh! We're in trouble!" So I can't think of the fellow's name—Forman?—who was in the English Department, his first name—but he was a tennis player. But anyway, he was sort of in charge of my group, and he came up with the—he says, "George, I got a title for you." I said, "What is it?" "First in the West: the Chicken or the Egg?" And he had the title for Jim: "Don't Fence Me In." And there happens to be a movie on that one. And so Jim had the movie that he worked around, and I had "The First in the West: the Chicken or the Egg?"

And so we spent a good deal of time putting this together, and apparently we did a pretty good job, based on the evaluations at the end of the course, from what we'd been told. The only thing that I regret is we only taught it once. It was never taught again. I don't know why. I never heard any complaints. [0:55:00] But it wasn't picked up again. But as a result of that, I have given that lecture up and down the west coast, into Canada, west Canada. I think I did one in Colorado. And I've done one, I think, since I retired—at different meetings, one meeting or the other. It was an interesting thing, when you put it all together.

And everybody—like, the Washington people gave me all kinds of information. The California people gave me all kinds of information. The Idaho people floated information down. There's a tremendous amount of history here, including Dryden's work—we won't go into that again, but the turkey work. The broad-breasted bronze wasn't discovered at OSU or Washington State University. It was developed by breeders in Oregon and Washington, based on some work that had been done in British Columbia by Jesse Throssel, who had gotten the Sheffield bird from the Rothschild people in Great Britain. And it all came about up and down this valley, probably more so in this valley than even in Washington. But there are people that are recognized in Washington, and there are people that are recognized here, that are true pioneers as far as turkey production is concerned.

CP: Yeah. You've done a lot to document the history of poultry production in the area. There's a fair amount in our collections that you've pieced together, you've written about. It sounds to me like it's something that's been a passion of yours, or an interest, anyway.

GA: Well, I got interested in it. Well, the last thing that I got involved with was this feed mill, moving it from—which was the Department of Poultry Science at one location, the feed mill in another location. Now, it's an office building in downtown Corvallis, designed to look like the Poultry Department before it became the feed mill. And I was asked to give the welcoming address or something when that was opened up several years ago. I often wonder how it's doing. Because that one was built by one of OSU's famous architects, and so there's a little incubation building that's right next to it. Well, that stuff on campus—I put a lot of that together. Oh, I've had a good life. Can't complain.

CP: What sort of contacts did you have with different OSU presidents? Do you have any memories in particular of specific presidents of OSU?

GA: Well, the first one that I have any recollection would be A.L. Strand. And at my level at OSU, I didn't have a lot of contacts with him, but I'd be able to make observations every now and then. And he was one of the individuals that—he did everything. I mean, very few things went through others that didn't eventually get to him. And I think things have changed a lot since then.

I remember one thing that occurred just after I got there. I wanted Dr. Parker to expand the floor-penned operations for raising broilers for nutritional experiments. And he went to bat, and he went where he should have gone, to the experiment station, and got authorization for us to do it. And he came back to me, and he says, "Everything's approved. You've got to call Lemon and tell him to set up an account for you." Okay, well, I called Dean Lemon, and before I got halfway through, the answer was, "No way!" You know what happened, don't you? [1:00:00] Well, I called the wrong Lemon.

CP: [Laughs]

GA: There was a Lemon in the ag-fiscal office that I was supposed to call. I didn't know there were two Lemons! All I knew, there was Dean Lemon. He didn't let me finish. He said, "I don't know what you're talking about! Bingo!" That was my closest real contact with the higher echelons of university administration, up to that point. But getting back to Dr. Strand, as a student here, there were two things that occurred. One was this communist thing that occurred, and he went in there and cleaned house right then and there. And there was another thing—I won't go into the real details on that one, but that was in a class, an English class, that I was in. He went in and yanked the prof out, and off that prof went. And it needed to be done, but I don't want that to go any further. So he was certainly a person that knew what was going on. And I'm not saying that critically against the newer people, but that was it. The next one would be Wilbur Cooney. He became—oh, no, he wasn't president. He became dean. Who followed Strand? Jensen.

CP: Jensen, yeah.

GA: And he had the difficult times during the Vietnam War, and I think OSU came out smelling pretty much like a rose, in relation to what some of the other institutions smelled like, as a result, and I think it was largely because of his leadership.

CP: MacVicar was after.

GA: You get up to Mac, MacVicar. I've got two sides on him. He really supported me when I was in trouble with the Yemen program, but we had a clash when I found out that they were trying to take the turkey farm away for something else. I had to get up and testify at the city, representing the turkey industry, and that one caused a direct meeting at the presidential level. But it all got worked out. From then on out, I can't say anything regarding John Byrne's period, because I think—what was he, '85, or something like that?

CP: Yeah, thereabouts.

GA: And that was the year and a half before I retired.

CP: Well, we've touched on the Yemen project a little bit. Why don't you tell me more about what that was all about?

GA: Well, that started during the Briskey career. Briskey, in my opinion, was a very controversial person. If anybody, I had more problems with him than I did with anybody else. But I've got to say this in defense of him: he wasn't a person without some darn good ideas. The problem he had was that he was a person that didn't know how to implement those ideas by utilizing the people that he had to utilize to get them implemented. I've always called a spade a spade, and so I used to get into trouble with it, because I'd argue against some things, and we had our problems that way. [1:05:00]

But the Yemen program I think largely occurred—or I think occurred largely as a result of Ernie Briskey being here. And we somehow got pulled in, I think, and this might be something good to look into. And so as a result, I agreed to go to Yemen, to work on the project paper. And the next thing I knew, the USAID had said that, "In addition, you need to make sure you have a poultry veterinarian on that paper, as well." Try finding a poultry veterinarian. They're few and far between to begin with, and very few of them want to go to Yemen. Well, Dr. Don Halford in Veterinary Medicine was a poultry veterinarian, and he and I over the years had developed a pretty good relationship. And the first time I raised it with him: "Well, forget it, George. I'm not going to go to Yemen." If you knew Don, that came out pretty mild, the way he generally says things.

And I went back to him again, and for various reasons, he had changed his mind a little bit. "Well," he says, "I'll go over there with you for two months. We'll get it done." So he went over with me, and he really liked it. And we wrote the project paper, just starts at '81, and we put a position in as campus facilitator, which was an academic position in the Poultry Department. I hadn't filled that. I had a staff of three that was academic over there, that I had filled those; there wasn't any question of who was going to go in there. But one day he came over, and he says, "Is that position of facilitator still open?" "Yeah," I said, "It is." He says, "Put me down for it. I'm applying for it." I says, "You know, if you do, you're going to have to switch from Veterinary Medicine to Poultry." "That's right. Doesn't bother me at all." And he got the job.

And so it was the Poultry Extension and Training Project. If you look at it in your literature in the archives, you'll see "sub-project," because OSU had the overall project, and each of us was—OSU also had the poultry project. There was a heart project from somewhere. There was an ag-education project from New Mexico, but they're all called "sub-projects." But basically, they were little projects unto themselves, so I get away from the "sub-project" bit. And what it amount to was we had to have about 16- or 17-week training periods, in country, for men and women. Well, USAID had also insisted that we bring a sociologist into the picture. I said, "I don't have a sociologist to come in." "Well, we'll provide you with one of our sociologists." It was a lady. And she sat in with us, and we got the project written.

When we would have this sixteen, seventeen training periods, at the end of a training period, the students would each be given 100 birds or so, to take back to their villages. But to do this, we had to have four buildings for production purposes. We had to have a dormitory for the men; we had to have a dormitory for the women. Well, the first problem we ran into was: when the word went out to the tribal leaders we were going to be training men and women, they says, "You might be training men, but you aren't going to be training our women in that hellhole of Sadat." So our dormitory was next to useless there. Well, the sociologist should have told us that [1:10:01], which she didn't. What did we do? We realized that the project—we had to make it entirely with men. So there were two dormitories, where there could have been one bigger one, and let it go at that.

Well, we had to get those things built. We had to bring buildings over from the United States for those four production buildings. Well, that's where MacVicar really saved my neck, because the state of Oregon suddenly got into that. "You aren't in the line of procedure for building buildings, and you're building these buildings out of schedule." I said, "If that's the case, I've got to get this stuff going. It's going to take five years to get that going." So I wrote a letter to Mac, and I said, "We might as well just cancel this thing." He says, "Don't worry, George." He says, "Let me look at it. Let me work on it." And he did. He got the funding outside the state, through the foundation. I would never have thought of the foundation. Well, he saved that project.

Well, anyway, so we had these 17-week sessions over time. We had two technicians over there, and a retired head of the Poultry Department in New Mexico, who had been a graduate student with me, and we were able to get that thing moving. And another section of that project involved identifying a dozen or so students with high school educations in Yemen, or elsewhere in the region, who could come to OSU and major in a four-year program in Poultry Husbandry, and two additional people at the PhD level, who already had bachelor's degrees from that region. It would have to be that region, because none of them would have gotten any from Yemen itself. So we found two individuals, two or three individuals, for that purpose.

Well, they came over, and they actually worked past the expiration of the project, because they didn't get here until Year Four, and this was in Year Six, so they still had two years to go, and USAID kept them going, you see? So we had one woman, and all the rest were men. That was our only failure. The woman couldn't work with all those men. It wasn't her fault; it's just the nature of the culture, the nature of the country. So she was the only one that didn't make it. The two technicians worked these students through, and that worked out very well. Dave Francis, the project leader overseas—he worked out very well, because he kept things going, and he would work back with Don Halford and me, to make sure things really got going. Well anyway, the two PhDs both got PhDs. One got in the department, more in the management area, and he's currently working the Ministry of Fisheries and Agriculture. We've lost track of him.

The other one worked with me for a master's, and then I retired, so he switched to Animal Science, and he finished in Animal Science, but he went back on the faculty at Sana University, in Agriculture, and he's still there, as far as I know. Once in a blue moon, I'll get something from him, but I don't have as much close touch with him as I would like to. But that's the way it works. [1:15:00] And independent of the project, I was also asked to set up the poultry program, because—oh, yeah, OSU, in addition to poultry, had the responsibility for developing the Land Grant concept applied to Sana University. And so we brought in a poultry level of instruction that we thought should be at least the minimum, including equipment, and that sort of thing. I got involved in that, but I don't know how far that went, because the minute Desert Storm happened, the U.S. pulled out lock, stock and barrel.

We were out of the project entirely, anyway, at that point, but the instruction—the University, Sana, instruction program was still going, because they had about fifteen years to go. See, what happened was, it appears that Yemen sided with Iraq, because they both expected the other to go into Saudi Arabia. Yemen had a reasonably good army. Iraq had a reasonably good army, or they'd have come down this way on them. But that never occurred, see? But as a result, Yemen lost a tremendous amount of the aid support that it got. All the Yemeni employed in Kuwait, Iraq or wherever, Saudi, was sent home, and that was their major gross national product, so to speak. And so that was their big asset, is their people being in enclaves in this country. They weren't sent home from this country, but they sent ours home, and that's what was helping the country. Well, that's the way it goes.

So, on the whole—now, the other thing—we were not directly related to USAID. We were a subcontractor of CID, Consortium for International Development, out of Tucson. And they were related to USAID. Well, when Dillard Gates found out that I was getting involved with this, he asked, "Can I come down and talk to you?" Which he did. And he said, "George," he said, "You're going to get involved with AID," because he'd been involved with AID directly. He said, "I want to give you a word of advice: you make darn sure you keep a paper trail." Fortunately, I listened, and I kept the paper trail. Because they were forever trying to change things on me! And they said, "Well, George, don't worry about putting it on paper. Just change it." [Laughs] "Because," he says, "You'll have it denied in an audit." And he was right.

Well, I know we used to frustrate the Ag officer at USAID. He'd come in some mornings and, "I want you to switch it over to go in this direction." I says, "That's contrary to what the project calls for." "Oh, don't worry about the project. This is the way it should go." And maybe he was right. But I said, "Look, you need to talk to CID. They will tell us to make the change. If they tell us to make the change, I'll make the change." Wow, that just set off the fireworks! [Laughs] Well anyway, it was full of headaches at one time, but I think we did a good job over there.

But for Yemen to really emerge, they're going to have to lift themselves out by their bootstraps. And that's what I'm hoping that some of these—these students weren't allowed to stay over here. They had to go home. And I hope maybe some of them maybe have been able to—but if you read what's going on in Yemen [1:20:01], it makes you wonder. Well, that's enough on Yemen.

CP: It sort of set a template, though, for what you did after you retired. Am I correct about that?

GA: That's right.

CP: You did a great deal of international travel, to Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Peru, Egypt, Lithuania.

GA: Yeah.

CP: Do you want to talk about any standout memories from that period of time?

GA: Yeah, I have nothing but really good memories from that volunteer work. It goes back to when this fellow contacted me from ISC, and asked me if I would consider serving in a volunteer basis in this type of work. And my only comment to him was, I says, "Now, remember, I don't really want to encounter an awful lot of expense on my part. I'm willing to volunteer without a salary, but I want expenses taken." "Oh," he says, "they're all covered." So I allowed him to put my name in.

ISC sent me on three of those projects, and then VOCA and ATCY, is it, or what? I don't know what that acronym is. VOCA, Volunteers and Overseas Cooperative Assistance. Oh, then there was another one, Partners of the Americas. Well anyway, they all worked that way, and I went to—I think in each one, I was able to make a contribution. Sometimes—like, Costa Rica was the first one. I spent two weeks looking around, then I had a workshop. I developed a poultry workshop, and it was supposed to be for little producers. [Laughs] Even the big boys came. In fact, they dominated. Because I had gone to the big boys, but they knew about it, and they came. And I ran into a graduate student that I'd served on as a minor professor, from Animal Science. It gets to be a small world, sometimes. He sort of took me under his wing, and I got to see things that I probably wouldn't have seen otherwise.

And then the Dominican Republic—I went twice, and they wanted me to come a third time. I said, "Look." I says, "You really didn't do what I suggested the first time around when I got back the second time, and I don't think I'm going to make any progress the third time." So I didn't go. But I think I made them think about some things, especially how they brooded chickens with a smoke brooder. Oh, man! We finally got everything converted to gas, and without—they'd have fires burning in the house, see? And the smoking would just about kill you.

And Betty went with me to the Dominican Republic twice and Peru, that's three, four—then Egypt. The Extension poultry specialist, retired from Washington State, and I went together on VOCA, and Betty couldn't go, because we suggested—we were in a different house almost every night, and she couldn't be traveling that way with us, but she liked Peru.

But anyway, that one was a hard one, in Egypt. We were trying to tell them how to handle these poultry houses that the Russians had built in villages all in the delta. You have Alexandria, Cairo—Alexandria, Suez, Cairo—and in this highly populated area, there's innumerable villages. And the Russians built two- or three-story concrete buildings, in which they raised chickens. Well, that didn't work, and disease got the best of them. We put in a suggestion of how they might be able to do it, but some of those buildings will outlast the pyramids.

CP: [Laughs]

GA: Well anyway, other than that, it was a good assignment, because we got a day off [1:25:00], a holiday, a long weekend off, when we were in Alexandria. We went to out to El Alamein, which is a World War II deal. We saw what the Egyptians had done to memorialize that area. They've done a nice job, because they brought the Germans in, they brought the Italians in, and allowed them to build something. And they both built very significant things, and their commonwealth was brought in. Then they built a museum. It's well done. Because they contacted us on this vacation. They said, "We don't want you going south of Cairo, because of the terrorism thing." Well, we said, "We'd like to go to El Alamein." "Fine, we'll give you a driver." So we had it.

But the one that I liked the best was Lithuania. But I worked harder there than I—because I was able to work on a project and solve it, and I did. And I did it in a little under two weeks. I says, "Time to go home." I had four weeks there. "Ah, Dr. Arscott, we noticed that you have a nutrition background. We'd like to take advantage of that." I was at a former Russian experimental poultry breeding farm, see, and it had been stripped by the Lithuanians when the changeover occurred, and they were getting back to manufacturing feed, and all that. So I stayed another two weeks. It was a good experience. But I was never so cold in all my life, because the buildings were supposed to be steam-heated, but there was no steam. They used to get me an electric heater, and I'd suggest they leave it on all night so the office would be open and warm in the morning. [Laughs] But we had a good time. But by the end of that one, it was about a ten-year span. I figured I've done enough.

CP: Yeah. Well, you took a trip of a different sort in 2003, when you went back to Normandy for the Jubilee Celebration.

GA: No, I didn't go to Normandy.

CP: Oh, okay.

GA: I went to Normandy the year that I was in Egypt, which was the year after.

CP: Okay.

GA: And well, to get back to Egypt, the commonwealth cemetery had 24,000, I think it is, graves that are still active. They're still burying people there. I there are six Americans buried there. They're either a tank crew or an Air Force crew; I'm not sure which. But in a long corridor—like, you came down here—there were 29,000 names of soldiers in the commonwealth countries missing in action. And the Germans had four Panzer divisions in their memorial, with everybody in the same box. The Italians built a mausoleum with 100,000 slots, and it was full, and 80 percent of those were unknown. Okay.

The thing you see in a cemetery is so many people 17 to 24. Their life has been cut off. That got to me. Well, that fall, I went to England, and this fellow that I told you, who has Alzheimer's—he was a retired architect—he said, "Would you like go over to Dieppe and see where Gordon's buried?" I said, "Great." And so he drove us over. He learned to speak French because of his brother, and he's well recognized over there, and he's honored, too, because his wife has just gone over and received an honor in his name, because he's not got long for this world the way he is. Well, anyway, then he said, when we got there—we found Gordon's grave, and so forth. I knew Gordon, because I'd lived there in 1937. And we've known them all our lives. He was the oldest of the cousins. [1:30:00] I'm the next.

Then we went to England that fall—no, well, I'm back in Dieppe. He says, "How about going down to Normandy?" That's my first experience with Normandy. And there, the outstanding thing that you see is that cemetery. Spotless. But you look at those graves, 17 to 24. What could some of those guys have done?

CP: Yeah.

GA: It really gets to me. But we tried to find Katz, and we didn't. And I know why, after I moved here. Because I was looking for K-A-T-Z, and there's a guy that lives here, John Hodges—went in on D1 as an officer. Yeah, he found out I'd been over there, so he asked me. I said, "I was stationed at Katz, K-A-T-Z." He had all the maps. He says, "There's no Katz, K-A-T-Z," but he says, "I found a C-A-T-Z." He pointed it out on the map, and I could see the ocean. And that was the result of what our boys did, in September. So we've seen it all. It's been a good life.

CP: Yeah. Does the fascination with poultry continue for you?

GA: Yes. Well, you heard the conversation at the dinner table, about overcrowding, and that sort of thing? To that extent—well, when I moved here, they liked to get the residents involved in gardening, and I had previously indicated I'm not interested, really, in gardening. I'm not a gardener. But they kept asking me. I says, "Well, maybe I'll take a lot." But having told them what I did, "What are you going to do with the plot?" "Well," I said, "I might raise a few chickens." "Not in our backyard!" But you can raise them here, if you want to—I mean, in this area. This is a non-incorporated area of Oak Grove.

And, in fact, I guess I was on the council when the former CEO asked me; he says, "George, could we raise some chickens here, for eggs for the dining room?" "Yeah," I said, "You could probably raise some chickens for eggs," but I says, "I don't think you're going to do it economically." And I never heard any more about it. But there are ways. People are trying to raise backyard poultry, and economically it's not a feasible thing, but I think it's an enjoyable thing for somebody that likes to do it.

CP: They've become very popular.

GA: Yeah. I've been called on to go visit backyard poultry operations. There's one here in Portland. There's a couple whose daughter-in-law lives on Burnside, on the other side of the tunnel. They have five acres back in there. You wouldn't know it's there, but they have a menagerie of all sorts of things, from goats, to sheep, to chickens. The biggest problem they're having is rats. There's a strain of rat there that's the size of a cat, almost. And they've got to lock those birds in at night, in a rat-proof facility, or they won't have any chickens left. And there's big, huge—big rat holes, going down a creek down there. I don't know how, but they seem to manage all right. It's something they like to do.

CP: Well, as we sort of wrap up a little bit, I'm wondering - you've had a long career, you've won many awards, what are some things that you're proud of when you think back on what you've done?

GA: Well [1:35:00], I feel that we made the beginnings of a contribution to a country like Yemen. And the reason I say that is, two of those fellows that worked for us continued in this type of work, and they're both retired now.

But they both called us from Afghanistan, while they were working in Afghanistan. And they said, "Would you and Don Halford come over and write the paper, the Yemen paper, for Afghanistan?" Well, we snorted about that, Don and I did. But we didn't want to hurt their feelings, because what we—I said, "I'm too old to be traveling." I said, "You guys realize how old we are?" We were in our plus-80s at that point. "You two were there in Yemen. You know what the shortcomings of the project were. You know what the good parts of the project were—better than we do. You write it; we'll critique it." And they agreed. But then they put a freeze on the whole thing, because of the fighting, and in the meantime, these two guys have retired, have left the service, so to speak. So whether or not something like that happens, or no?

But I did hear from Carson. He was back in Yemen on a temporary assignment, and he says, "You know, they keep talking to us over here." He wasn't there on poultry. He says, "They should bring back the poultry project." Well, I don't know. They're going to have to convince USAID to bring that back. But I think it was a good project. Wasn't the first poultry project to be over there. San Luis Obispo was there for a time before we were. Well, so that'd be one of the things. And what was this question again?

CP: Points of pride, looking back on your career.

GA: I'd like to have been able to do something a little bit more with—and I think Parker was interested in that—doing something a little bit more in the artificial insemination/fertility work, because basically, we were the only group that had ever done any work in that area.

As far as dwarfs were concerned, that one—I think the industry is probably doing it with the least amount of problem the dwarf brought into the picture. They're able to change the genetic makeup of the bird, not by the changing of a single gene, but merging all of it together, putting pressure in for thicker eggshell size, or eggshell thickness, stronger eggshell thickness. And so that's indirectly been a contribution. And the person that should get the most credit is Paul Bernier, because he's the one that spotted it in the first place, and then he came to me and asked me about the efficiency part, as far as nutrition was concerned.

But I guess if we're about ready to close it, I'd say I couldn't have had a nicer group of people to work with in the Poultry Department at Oregon State University than existed there, either as a student, or as it was when I was a faculty member. They were tops. They were just like my commanding officer in Europe, World War II. We all worked hard. And I'll close this by saying, Paul Bernier once told me, "George"—after he retired. Every time I went down there, I'd stop to see him, and he was about, maybe, ten years older than I was. He says, "We didn't know it, George, but we were at OSU during the golden years." And he says, "We didn't have a lot of money, but we had a lot of freedom to use the ideas that we wanted to try to work with." And we did. And we were, I thought, a very productive program.

CP: Well, thank you, George. This has been a lot of fun for me. I really appreciate you spending your time, and giving us your memories of Poultry Science at OSU.

GA: Well, it's been my pleasure. I'm glad you contacted me on this, because I had second thoughts for a while, but it's been a lot easier—and I hope that I haven't misled anybody, as far as dates, etcetera, are concerned. But you've got to remember, I'm 91, so I'm allowed to make a few mistakes.

CP: Okay. We'll keep that in mind. Thank you.

[1:40:56]