Frank Appleton Oral History Interview, July 19, 2018

TIAH EDMUNSON-MORTON: Okay. Now go ahead and introduce yourself.

FRANK APPLETON: Okay. My name is Frank Appleton. I was born in Manchester in the northwest of England, a big industrial city, in 1941. When I was growing up there, the city had been devastated by bombing during the Second World War. It was not too pleasant a place to grow up, but it did have a great tradition of learning and universities and so forth. I graduated from high school and went to a technical college where I studied microbiology for 3 years and after that did a diploma in brewing, also running milk processing. So, I became what you would say a food microbiologist. Is that good so far?

TEM: Yeah, for sure. How big was your family in England?

FA: Oh, I was the youngest of a family of girls [laughs].

TEM: [Laughs].

FA: I have four older sisters.

TEM: Did they all stay in England?

FA: No. They have spread out over the globe now, but they were all in England when I was growing up there. They all married. One of them married a Canadian who was over there one part of the Armed Forces massing for D-Day and they got married 3 days before D-Day, and he was killed in D-Day landings. At 19, she became a Canadian war bride, well, widow I should say. But she did marry again 00:02:00after the war. Second eldest sister married also a soldier who was captured in the fight to regain Italy and he was forced march back into Germany, to a concentration camp in Germany and managed to survive all that and get back to England after the war, quite amazing stories. I just witnessed these as a small boy growing up and avoided going into the armed forces.

TEM: Wow, yeah. What are some of the... you were so young I imagine that you didn't know any different, but what are some of the things you remember from kind of a practical day-to-day sense about war in England?

FA: Well, the war was over when I was 4 years old, so the main thing that affected us was basically getting enough to eat. In those times, I mean, England had been cut off from its sources of supplies overseas for things like fresh fruit and all of the things out of season in England and stuff like that. A lot of food stuffs were brought in from different parts of the world, of course, from all over the place and those things were not available during the war. I have one little anecdote to tell you. My sisters would talk about the stuff that they had available, the delicious stuff they had available, before the war and they'd talk about bananas, for example, which hadn't been seen in England for 00:04:00years and years and years. I'd chime in and say, oh, I remember bananas, how delicious they were and everything. The girls would laugh and me and say you can't remember bananas. You weren't even born yet. I'd persist and say, oh no, I do remember. I remember having a banana. Blah. Blah. Blah. After the war, of course, bananas appeared and my mother brought some in. Here, we have some bananas and my sisters gave me one and said, okay, you like bananas. Now, here you go, and I couldn't figure out how to get into the damn thing.

TEM: Oh, no! [Laughs].

FA: [Laughs] I couldn't figure out how you open a banana, and they were just laughing like crazy because I said, oh, yes, I knew these bananas, but of course I didn't know.

TEM: Well, and bananas aren't something that you could like break the skin and open it. That would be pretty gross.

FA: Pardon? Oh, yeah, well, you know, I didn't know how to unzip one. You need a bit of a knife or something to cut the top.

TEM: What did your parents do for employment?

FA: What is, what? Sorry.

TEM: What did your parents do for jobs?

FA: Oh, my father was a machinist in industrial plants and my mother, well, she was busy raising all these kids when I was small. Later on she did a lot of various jobs working in shops and so forth.

TEM: What were some of the things that you enjoyed doing when you were a little kid?

FA: Oh, well, you know I played sports like all British boys, soccer and cricket and so. There was a swimming bus at the bottom of our road where I used to go 00:06:00and learn to swim and so forth, that kind of thing. I always enjoyed getting out into the country and it wasn't that easy when you live in Manchester, because Manchester's so huge and pretty hard to find anything green around there, but every opportunity I'd take I'd go out there and just the usual thing that boy's do, but I was always very attracted to wildlife and identifying birds and collecting bird eggs and that kind of thing.

TEM: Did you have an early interest in science?

FA: Oh, yeah. I was very strongly in science, always. Always. I did excellent, passed my exams with flying colors in the sciences, so I knew I was going into the sciences in some respect. I didn't know what at that time, but I worked in a 00:07:00dairy laboratory and I worked in a laboratory in a brewery and took an apprenticeship in a brewery that was in Manchester, but, as I mentioned in the book, the most interesting job was in a very large plant that was turning corn from the United States central areas there into a whole variety of starch products, one of which was glucose. The current method of making starch into glucose was to digest it using 3% hydrochloric acid and reduce it down that way, but the main problem with that was the massive amount of cleanup of the produce to produce pure glucose, because the starches get charred and jumbled up. They 00:08:00don't just produce glucose. They produce a lot of other products that you don't want, so a huge amount of time and effort was devoted to cleaning up the thing after the acid treatment. A very brilliant guy called Angus, a Scottish bacteriologist who was working in the company main plant in Chicago came up with the idea of using a mold called Aspergillus oryzae to produce its enzymes which would digest the starch without all this charring of the hydrochloric acid. He came up with this idea because this mold is the very mold that they use in Japan to digest the rice starch when they're making sake because you can't molt, as it were, rice that's used for sake. It's already been polished. He knew that they 00:09:00were doing this, and he thought we could do it on a large scale in closed fermenters with the mold distributed in the liquid constantly stirred. I was involved in that production, in the very early production of that which became the standard method of production for glucose. That was the most interesting job, more interesting than brewing, actually, except until I got into the small scale brewing, and then I, you know, I could do basically what I wanted then [laughs].

TEM: Did you have an early interest in food as well, or studying food or thinking how science and food overlapped?

FA: Well, of course, you can't do courses like I did in microbiology and biology in general and that kind of thing without looking at food. At a certain point in my career when I was doing microbiology I had to choose between, well, most of the microbiologist went not into food into the health sciences, right?, working in path labs, pathology labs, and things like that, but after experiencing what life was like in a path lab, I decided that I didn't want to do that, so I went into the food sciences. Then, yeah, well, I entertained brewing as a career, but I didn't really go into it in England. I just did an apprenticeship there in a 00:11:00brewery before I went to Brown & Postman's which was the big starch manufacturing plant. It wasn't until I, well, what happened was one of my sisters had come out to Canada and was living in Vancouver, and she was persuading me to give Vancouver and Canada a try because she thought it would work out well for me when I finished my studies. Anyway, I spent another couple of years working for Brown & Postman's and so forth, and then I decided once the enzyme hydrolysis plant was up and running I decided to leave there and come out to Vancouver.

TEM: What are some things that stand out about the English brewing culture or English brewing industry for you when you think about that early time before you left?

FA: I suppose, in retrospect, I was lucky to see the brewing business just as it was changing from a lot of small-scale production where they still use wooden barrels and this kind of thing and old techniques, and a lot of these things were being lost as the smaller breweries got bought up by the bigger ones and ever bigger and they were streamlining the operation to make it more efficient and so forth and more efficient doesn't necessarily mean better tasting. I mean, you just think about the more efficient McDonald's of the world compared to fine dining and you get the idea. I always compare beer to bread making because it's 00:13:00another product that made from cereal grains. It's got, you know, the Germans have another word for beer, which is liquid bread, right? What I said in my book there is that if you remember the white plastic Wonder bread phenomenon that happened in the '50s, everybody went for that. It went much the same way with streamlined bland product. You couldn't find fault with it, except that it didn't have much nutrition. So, along came whole wheat bread and how, hey, well 00:14:00just a minute here, this is a heck of a lot better for my kids than the white plastic wonder bread. That's exactly what has happened in the brewing business with craft beer as a rejection of that streamlined beer and introducing products that are more flavorful, better for you, more nutritious.

TEM: Rewind just a second to what it was like, or, what was that brewing internship that you did, what was that like? What were some of the things that you really liked about it or didn't like as much?

FA: In England?

TEM: Yeah.

FA: Well, let's see... as a microbiologist I wasn't too impressed with the 00:15:00brewery that I worked with because there were a lot of things that were distressing from a microbiological point of view, but they got away with it because we sold the beer rather quickly and didn't have a chance to go off. I mean, still using wooden barrels, wooden casks, they even had some wooden fermenters in this brewery, which the whole thing was kind of kind of ancient. It was well over 100 years old. So, from the point of view of pure microbiology I thought this leaves a lot to be desired, and when I first came to work in Canada for one of the large concerns, O'Keefe Brewing, which is part of Carling O'Keefe nationwide organization that I thought oh, this wonderful because it's all stainless steel, very streamlined and very few bugs for me to look at, very 00:16:00few bugs to cause problems. But at the same time, it was also quite a boring job for those same reasons. The other thing that I didn't care for was I didn't care for the products that much. They didn't have any variety like they had in breweries in England where they typically make about half a dozen very quite different products, just like breweries now. You know, it was all pale logger, the north American version of logger. I mean, you just think, you know, Budweiser and Miller and Coors. That kind of thing. It was so bland that, well, it's hard to fall in love with a product like that.

TEM: You moved to Canada in 1964, is that correct?

FA: I actually came in '63, and I joined O'Keefe in '64.

TEM: What are some of the things that still stand out to you as differences between Canada and England?

FA: Well, a difference between Manchester, which, as I say, a large industrial city, think Pittsburg in the states for example, that manufactures heavy industry, and the fact that it had been bombed heavily during the war didn't make it very attractive, and come to Vancouver, which is a beautiful city. I don't know whether you've been there, and a beautiful city on the Pacific Ocean and it's got mountains, mountains visible. You can go skiing in the season. You can go skiing and you can go play tennis or golf on the same day, if you want. 00:18:00It had a lot going for it, even though the job wasn't that particularly interesting at that time.

TEM: What about food that you noticed was a difference or still remember being a different thing that you had either never had or you were really excited about having once you were in Canada?

FA: Well, the food was all of the highest standard and just better and more nutritious and more available than it had been in England. Getting fresh seafood, of course, was no problem when you lived in Vancouver, and that was a problem, even though Manchester was only 40 miles from the ocean. You wouldn't get much fresh seafood, well, you'd have to pay for it. There's a wide variety of seafood available. I know when my dad came out for a visit in '65 and I took 00:19:00him over to Vancouver Island, I said, you know I heard that over here on the island there are places where you can just pick up-my dad was a big fan of oysters, but he could never afford them that much in England, and I said, there's places where you can pick up oysters just off the beach for free. He didn't believe this, and I took him onto the east coast of the Vancouver Island there and we found this one beach and, yes, there were the oysters. We could pick them and take a big bagful and take them back to our campsite and my dad was just overwhelmed. We had white wine and oysters out there on the campsite. We had caught a lingcod the same day, so we had that also and just feasting off the land, so to speak, off the ocean.

TEM: That sounds lovely.

FA: Yes.

TEM: What about culturally. So, you're in Canada in the mid '60s, certainly in the States that mid '60s to late '60s is an important time socially, politically, and culturally.

FA: Yeah, in fact I wrote a novel about that time, because lots of things happening with the Vietnam War and of course tens of thousands of Americans came north to Canada and I met a lot of them, and I met even more of them when I moved out to this, where my house is right now. It's a little remote community in the Kootenays area of B.C., because quite a few of them were here just escaping the draft. Of course, it was the time when psychedelics being experimented with and that kind of thing, pot smoking and just the general, you 00:21:00know, revolutionary atmosphere. The Beatles were big. I couldn't believe it when these lads from Liverpool made it so big, Liverpool being very close to Manchester, just down the water there, just about as desirable a place to live as Manchester, if I may put it that way. Somebody asked Ringo recently how he would describe the Liverpool that he grew up in, and he said, I give it a D for dirty, dark, and dangerous. So, that was a real revelation. I'd always been interested in music, too, and spent some time singing in a rock band, still do for that matter. But the big thing was I spent 8 years working for Carling 00:22:00O'Keefe in that brewery, cranking out a zillion bottles of beer that was, well, it was a very satisfactory from a microbiological viewpoint but quite dissatisfactory from my point of view of flavor and just general interest.

TEM: Well, that was one of the really interesting parts of your book, for me, was how much that job changed and that company changed while you were there.

FA: Yes. Indeed. It was quite depressing. I probably, you know, I would have gone on working for them for quite a long time. I don't know. I was already getting quite depressed about the sterile nature of the product and so forth, if 00:23:00I might put it that way. So, I'd already been with them for 8 years and the brewery was only 10 years old at that point in time. It was almost brand new when I joined it. The company-this is one of the problems with huge, nationwide companies, they just decided that they didn't need 2 plants anymore in Vancouver and they were going to close ours down. As I say, this was almost a new plant. That was very depressing and I made some, well, writing letters and so forth to the president and so forth, but it didn't do any good.

TEM: Well, and that the other plant didn't have a great, the two plants didn't have a great relationship, it sounds like, with each other.

FA: No, they didn't, although they were supposedly sister plants. But in the marketplace the salesman and so forth just treated us like another competitor, 00:24:00more like an easy target, because after all, we were the little sisters, as it were. So, sometimes sisters, big sisters treat other little sisters like that. I found that out with 4 of my older sisters. That was, yeah, anyway, I left there. I walked out of there in disgust about a year before they closed the plant. I was just completely fed up with the situation and dropped out. In the temper of the times that was the thing to do. That's what Timothy Leary was telling us all to do-turn on, tune in, and drop out.

So, I bought, I still had this love of nature, you see, and Canada's just one big open pallet, as far as you want to be out in nature and so forth. Actually I'd been 8 years being in a city, quite a nice city, but still in the city and hadn't had, apart from my annual holidays, hadn't had that much chance to get out into the country. So, I made a big leap. I bought a plot of 20 acres out here and I just made this big leap that I was going to do this thing. I'd had some success writing, mostly technical articles at that time, and I thought I'd give it a try in the wider market and see if I could make some money as a freelancer, so that's what I did.

TEM: How did you get jobs?

FA: How did I get jobs?

TEM: Yeah, I think now we're so dependent on our computers and the internet. What was the process of working to submit articles or connecting with people?

FA: In the beginning... you're quite right. The internet thing has changed everything as far as writing's concerned and submitting stuff. In the beginning, the only thing to do was I came up with an idea, I wrote the article... I also developed a talent for photography to help fill my words, and I could submit pictures because the usual thing I wrote about was, they say, write about what you know and what I knew was a lot about biology, and there was loads of biology right out there for me to check out here in Kootenays. I wrote what I called my brewers, bugs, bees, beer... it's the stuff that I knew. In the beginning it was 00:27:00just send it in and hope for the best and how that they would like it. You get a lot of rejections that way but eventually I started to get, as I write in my book, more acceptance and better known and when you get something of a reputation established with a magazine, they will ask you to produce for them, like, you know, they will give you ideas or ask you for an idea. So, you're just submitting outlines then, right? The fax machine also speeded things up quite a bit. When you get known, then you're just sending them ideas, or on the phone just tell them the idea and so forth. They'd say go ahead. When you get to that stage, you're not writing on spec, kind of thing. You know it's going into a 00:28:00magazine. You know you're going to get paid for it.

It was quite a time later, sometime in '78 when I wrote this article that I call the underground brew master, which was published in a magazine, which was, really, their market was the back to the land-ers and the alternate lifestyle people, and I wrote about telling people to make their own beer, how they could make their own beer much cheaper, for one thing, but better than the big guys could do it. I had some trenchant comments about the sad stage of factory beer, let's put it that way, in Canada. It was the same in the States, of course. That article was the key to the whole beginnings of it, because it came to the 00:29:00attention of one John Mitchell who had a pub in West Vancouver, and he was another Brit who was desperately unhappy with the state of beer that he had to offer his customers, like from the big 3 as it was then. It was all the same adjunct logger-adjunct is the term for non-malt cereal that's added to the mash. Why do they do this? It's not to improve the product. It's because non-malt cereal is 1/3 the price of barley malt. That's the reason, the bottom line. When I went to work there to ask about this, why we are adding it? Well, it makes the beer lighter in body and lighter in color and light, light, light is what, it's 00:30:00the North American taste, Frank. That's what we want here. It won't turn the ladies off. Everybody was going lighter and lighter and lighter, emulating Budweiser and so forth and trying to emulate their success, but in the process the product was becoming more and more standardized, and, to my mind, more dull.

TEM: I'm curious about the marketing standpoint, and you may have not had a whole lot of interaction directly with how decisions were made, but I'm curious once you met John Mitchell and started talking about something different, what role did audience or market have? How did you know what to make?

FA: We wanted to make something radically different from the-let's put it this way, the pub was in West Vancouver, which has quite a large population of British people to begin with. All of those beer drinkers were quietly dissatisfied with the beer that they could get in Canada because they were used to quite a wide variety of beers in England and much, sort of, heavier, meltier, darker, more characterful beers. They might have been available sometime past before the wars in Canada, but they certainly weren't now when I came over. So, Mitchell wanted to brew the kind of beer that-when we got together, I said to him, what kind of beer do you want to brew? What style would you like to brew. He said, something like Fuller's London Pride, which was a London beer that was 00:32:00a well-known, traditional-style beer. It was considered medium ale kind of thing, medium brown ale. I said to him, very good. Get a hold of some bottles and I'll look up the recipe, which is what he did. That's what we were aiming for when we made Bay Ale, a heftier, brownish, British-style ale. No, a logger.

TEM: How did you learn how to make recipes or dissect beers to come up with a recipe?

FA: Well, that was all part of my training in England. When you take a brewing course, you find out what beers are made out of and how you get a variety of 00:33:00taste and flavors from using what seemed like the basic, just the same basic things, which is barley, malted barley, and also hops. But there are so many ways you can treat malted barley by, well, it has to be wet until it just starts to sprout which produces the enzymatic reaction that's going to digest the starch when you come to brew with it, you see. You know you, that was the process of malting. You get that and you can also rewet the malted product and you can toast it gently or you can roast it. If you just toast it gently, you'll get a nice brownish, nutty flavored product and if you really roast it then 00:34:00you'll get a blackish malt. These will affect the flavor of the beer and also the color. As far as hops were concerned, well, there used to be about 20 variety of hops to choose from. These days with plant science and techniques like cloning and stuff like that and hybridization, there's oh, I've lost count. There's like 50 or more varieties of hops, some of them producing the important element of hops called alpha acids. It's a measurement of the oils that flavor and add bitterness to the beer, you see. When I was just starting out and brewing in England the highest alpha hops you could get was about 5% alpha.

TEM: Wow.

FA: These days with the plant science and so forth coming out of labs in Yakama and things like that, you can get them up to 13% alpha and they're still improving on it, so this kind of thing has happened to increase the brewers, let's say, palate when he's designing his beers. The water has a big part in it, too, and you can also modify the water by adding calcium salt, for example. So, all of these factors come into it, which you have to take into account when you're designing the recipe.

TEM: Did you do home brewing?

FA: Oh, I still do [laughs].

TEM: [Laughs].

FA: I still do. I have a little one hectoliter that's 100 liters little brewery 00:36:00in my basement, and I still do. I was home brewing as soon as I came out to my place in the Kootenays because I wasn't going to spend good money buying inferior beer when I knew how to make better beer.

TEM: I hadn't thought until you were talking about hops about the deep history of hops in England. Did you ever see hop fields hop fields when you were younger, or were they too far away from Manchester or the general...?

FA: No. I never did. Well, I saw some when I went down to the south of England. The south of England was where they did all the hop growing, and I was up in the northwest. I wasn't involved in any direct hop-I am now. I got some growing up 00:37:00in my yard here. But, no, I didn't have any direct... I knew from the brewing books and stuff like that what hops were all about, that hops were basically the flower of the hop plant and how they were collected and so forth, but I never was involved in that myself.

TEM: I'm curious, did you and John have early discussions about the importance of trying to source local ingredients as part of this more robust, flavorful beer?

FA: I'm not quite sure about the question. Could you make it a little clearer?

TEM: Yeah, I guess, I'm just thinking that certainly hops will grow up as far as where you are now, but you're not that far from Yakima or from the Willamette Valley where we are, and I'm generally just as an archivist and somebody who 00:38:00thinks about this history, I'm curious about the role that a concern or an interest in putting local ingredients into a beer played for early craft brewers.

FA: Right, well, let's put it this way, hops love heat. They love a lot of sunshine, and they also need lots of water. This really restricts the places that you can grow them successfully. I mean, you can grow hops just about anywhere. Whether they'll produce any flowers, whether they'll produce what you 00:39:00want, because the number of flowers and the amount of resins that those hops produce is strictly related to sunshine and water availability and good land for growing in. They're not particular, but you know you've got to have decent agricultural land. So, those factors mean, for example, that they're always grown in the south of England where it's warmer and you get a bit more sunshine. Also, the one that happened we used to row them quite extensively in the Fraser Valley, the lower Fraser Valley of B.C. here, and those hops yards were owned by John I. Haas, which is one of the bigger producers out of Yakima. At a certain point in time, the problem with growing hops in the Fraser Valley was that some years they would be just great and some years we'd get rain just at the wrong 00:40:00time. If you get rain late in the season when the flowers had been formed, the buds, these little bud-like things that has the hop oils in them, they will get mold and verticillium wilt and this kind of thing. They're rather susceptible to that. After a while, John I. Haas just gave up on growing them in the Fraser Valley and closed those hop yards down and sold the property, which was just a straight economic decision for them, but also the climate around Yakima and places like the Willamette Valley, of course, they have the most perfect conditions for growing hops. That's the reason that they're grown there.

TEM: Are they growing back in the Fraser Valley now?

FA: They are now. This is another result of the draft beer movement, because, of 00:41:00course, we're demanding other kinds of hops, and, like you say, local products. Just in the last few years they have started putting in hop yards and growing hops in the Fraser Valley again to sell to brew it, and doing very well. Fresh hops are always in demand, good fresh hops are always in demand. In fact, the two plants that I've got growing up my trellises out there were given to me by the Yakima, not the Yakima, the Tilawat Hop Company, which is this new outfit, and they had a little table at one of the beer shows where I was doing some book signing and when they packed up there they had a couple of baby plants there, just, show people what a hop plant looked like. So, they gave them to me after 00:42:00they were clearing their table and moving on. I got them growing out here now. They're doing very well.

TEM: What kind are they?

FA: I know one kind is centennial, which is a modern hybrid. That's the one that's really going good, most of the that one. The other one is one of the so-called noble varieties which is one of the dozen or so original varieties which is probably one of the English varieties. I'm not sure, it's either Fuggles or Goldings. I'm not quite sure about that one.

TEM: So, you got a range? A range of two.

FA: Pardon? Yeah, well, no mostly. I'm not growing these things. I'm growing them for appearance's sake, because they look nice, and if they produce, well, 00:43:00this is the second year and it looks like they're going to produce some hops. They're a perennial, right? They grow from the rootstock every year. It's a vine. They need something to grow up. So, but I'm not relying on them for hops for my own brewery here. I buy those just like every other brewer would, selecting the brands that I want and you know that if you buy them from a reputable source, you know that you're going to get the best quality.

TEM: Where did you and John, where did you source your ingredients? Did you have any difficulty finding-?

FA: Well in the beginning we had, as I related in my book, we had a little bit of difficulty, not really with hops, because, although they weren't growing any hops in our area, they were growing English-style hops, English-variety hops in 00:44:00the Yakima and Willamette Valley area. That wasn't a big deal for us. One thing that was a problem was that there's, as I say in the book, there was only one malting plant that was only one malting plant in western Canada, and that was in Calgary and Canada Malting, which is a Canada-wide company, and they made one variety of malt which was for light logger, for the big guys. That's all they made. I knew that this malt wouldn't work for us, if we were going to have something an authentic English ale. I explained this to John, and he said immediately, right. We'll bring our malt in from England. And, we did. In 20-foot containers in the beginning. Now, that's another thing that's changed. 00:45:00We have more malting companies. There's one not too far away from me here in B.C., and you can get a wide variety of malts from them, thank goodness. So, an interesting aside was when they Bay Ale had been on tap for a few months and the story became quite widespread, I got a letter from Canada Malting, from one of the CEOs of Canada Malting in Calgary and saying that this was just not on, because Canadian beers should be made out of Canadian malts, and it came to their attention that we were bringing imported malts to make our beers, and this might even influence Canadian trade laws. So, anyway, I wrote back that I would be more than happy to buy malt from you if you could provide low-protein, high starch, malt typically like the English varieties of Maris Otter or Argyll, and 00:46:00highly modified, not weakly modified like the logger malt is. If you can supply me with those, I'd be happy to buy them from you. Of course, I never got a reply from that. They weren't going to change their giant malting plant to make a few sacks of malt for us, but things have changed now. Even Canada Malting is offering different types of malt again, as I point out in the book there.

TEM: I think that's something I've heard from other early craft brewers in Oregon, was that the malt was the issue, that they either couldn't get small enough quantities, that that was a real pinch point, not the hops.

FA: Yeah, exactly. Nice highly modified malt made from two-row barley, and yeah, 00:47:00well, you know it can be done, as has been proved by later years of course. We can make a decent malt over here, it's just that the only guys that were buying malt up to that time were all the big guys and they all wanted the same malt, bland, two-row, sometimes six-row malt. It's all about production when you get into one of these huge breweries, streamlined production. When you streamline the taste, that's when the problems start.

TEM: So, what was the reaction, well, let me ask this a different way-who were your first customers at the brewery?

FA: Well, all the English people there in Vancouver that had been lusting for a 00:48:00pint of good English ale for all these years. The place was packed. Then John went over to Victoria, which is even more English, and started up a brewery there. I mean, it was just one success story after another. There were people who were just waiting for such a beer to come along. The only thing that they had before that was to drink imported beer. It was a revelation to people actually making beer like that over here, and, yeah, well, then mainly the British element was the people, our first customers, yeah definitely.

TEM: What would you say for distribution of men and women? Did it seem pretty 00:49:00slanted one way or another?

FA: Well, you know we were always told when I was with O'Keefe that women don't drink a beer like that. I always asked why don't we make something a big darker, a big more hoppy, a bit more flavorful. No. The women won't drink that kind of beer. Well, when we started off it was obvious that the males were the largest consumer, and the women that came in the pub with them would either drink the light products or, you know, they'd drink something else. I've noticed quite a change now in the recent years of women drinking real good, real ale, craft beer products, because they appreciate the difference. It's not that they reject it because of the difference, they appreciate what good beer is all about. Back to the whole wheat bread versus the white plastic wonder bread again.

TEM: So, I do want to ask you questions about Deschutes, which jumps ahead a little bit. Before we talk about Oregon, what were some of your favorite consulting jobs? I know you shared some fabulous ones, like the one from France. That was a favorite of mine, which, you know, a good place to be moored.

FA: Deschutes was definitely one of my favorites. I mean, you know, I was just down there just astounding the way what 30 years has produced, right? I always found... Gary was an exemplary guy to work with and work for and his whole attitude attracted people, enthusiastic, good people. He just had a talent for, 00:51:00well, let's say managing in a light manner, you know, not heavy-handed at all. You know, everything has worked out for him. I couldn't have believed it when I first came to Bend, that was in May of, what...

TEM: '88.

FA: '68? Yeah, and he you come across that bridge there. If you come from my direction, you come in right down through Yakima and that way and you come to this big bridge over the Columbia. Interestingly enough, I live very close to the Columbia myself, only 600 miles north [laughs].

TEM: [Laughs].

FA: You cross that bridge and you come into Oregon in the middle of it there and 00:52:00there is nothing there! I mean, there still is nothing there, right? There's nothing. I mean, there's one place that's kind of a ghost town. You just go on for miles and miles and miles and it's just scrub desert country. They're trying to grow a little bit of weeds here and there, and oh, wow. I'm thinking, what is he think he's doing putting a brewery here in Bend, because it seems like a real small place in the middle of nowhere, you know? But Gary had a vision and could see the potential of Bend. I mean, when I first went through Bend on my way to California-this was before Deschutes, long before Deschutes, in the early '60s, 00:53:00I went down there to see some friends. It was like a, you know, a little logging down, a bit of cattle and farming. The population, I looked it up, at that time was twelve and a half thousand. And here we come into Bend, Gene and I driving in there: Welcome to Bend: Population 81,000. It's just astonishing, and Gary foresaw that development and Bend developing as a recreational, get-away-from-it, second-home, golf courses, skiing on mountains, paddling on the river, all of this kind of thing, cycling and it's just astonishing how it's changed over this period of time. Well, the beer has been good, too. The beer 00:54:00has helped it along. Deschutes Brewery, I mean, they're even selling up here in B.C. now.

TEM: What are some of your early memories-if I asked you to describe the scene that you walked into when you saw this building that was going to become a brewery, what stands out to you?

FA: Well, I was quite impressed by the building, because Gary had obviously gone through considerable trouble to rebuild that whole building, you know, produce that nice brickwork façade that's on the front and everything like that, and it was well-ordered and the brewery space was adequate for what we were trying to do at that time. It seemed like, you know, is this an idea that's before it's time? But it was time. The other thing I hadn't realized was the difference between the, let's say, the more free licensing laws down there compared to what 00:55:00we had to put with in B.C., which is kind of a paternalistic aspect that used to be prevailing with the things like the liquor control board. It's very difficult to make them get a decision one way or the other, and usually the decisions were no, you can't do that. When I came up, well, I had done one in Northern California. That's where Gary and his dad got a hold of me, because they saw this one I had done in Arcata, right? I went along with Mario who was the owner to get his license. So, I went along with him down to the authorities, and so it was like, what do you want to do? Start a brew pub? What's that? Oh, sounds like a great idea. Okay, well, you want a license. Right-o. We'll write one up right 00:56:00now. Just remember to pay your excise taxes or some guys with guns are going to come after you, but otherwise than that, the best of luck. That was about it, and it wasn't any more difficult for Gary, I don't think, in Bend, either.

Oh, and back to my original thought, was then the thing that really held the brew pubs in B.C. down, as far as production was concerned, is that the law stated that you could only, if you're brewing on premises, you could only sell from those premises. In The States, they didn't care. What do you want to do? Sell to other licensees? Well, go ahead. I mean it was like, ugh! Gary, all of sudden, he's selling beer in Portland and Seattle and places like that, selling kegs. At that time, no bottles, selling keg beer. People would come to Bend from 00:57:00these cities for recreational purposes and they'd try the beer, and they'd love it, right? They'd go back to their hometown and start asking for the beer there. That was a big thing, when you got people they are your own advertising agency, right? All of a sudden they're producing way, way more beer than they needed for the Bend market, or the immediate market there in Oregon. They're producing beer for large establishments in Portland and Seattle and even San Francisco, and, you know, all over the place. That's what really promoted the moving Gary and 00:58:00his dad thinking that, well, if we need to go into bottling, we have to do it right. We have to build a new brewery, a production brewery. I had a bit of a hand in that one, too, in designing that when Gary and his dad were ready to do that. That was a lot of fun.

TEM: When you were-how involved were you in deciding what the early styles that came out of Deschutes, or the earliest styles?

FA: I talked to Gary, and, yeah, we narrowed it down to four main styles, I guess, a light, a very pale one. I think Mirror Pond Pale Ale. There was a bitter that we did, which was Bachelor Bitter. The real dark product was the Black Butte Porter, which has turned into a very big success, very big success. 00:59:00When he asked me to collaborate on doing a beer for the 30th with a brew master there at the brew pub there, I decided, well, we've done, we've covered all the main styles there. We're trying to dream up something that we haven't covered, and I decided how about a sweet stout, because, well, it used to be my mother's favorite, actually. A sweet stout, as opposed to the dry stout style, which is Guinness, a sweet stout's rather sweater. So, we did that one as the 30th anniversary collaboration brew, which Robin Johnson did a great job on it when I went down there and finally got a sample our mutual efforts there. Yeah, we had 01:00:00just the four stouts. I talked to Gary about what kind of beers he wanted and he came up with some names and I designed the recipes.

TEM: How long were you there? Like, how long were you in Bend for that first...?

FA: Probably about 2 months, I would think, to get it up and running and to get the beer started factory, and trained John Harris, who was the first brewer there.

TEM: What do you remember about John from those, that early meeting that you had or stories that you can think about how that training worked?

FA: Oh, I loved John. He's a very easygoing guy. He just lapped up everything I had to offer him. He really did. There was, well, he knew quite a bit about 01:01:00brewing small scale because he had worked in a brewery there in the Portland area, I guess. So, he knew quite a bit about that, but I had done it from a different direction, from professional training and working for the big guys, and working in England and working for the big guys over here and so forth, so I brought a lot of knowledge that he hadn't experienced, and he just lapped all that up. We had a great time. We went out and would go play golf together and go and sit by the river on Sundays and watch the people floating by and stuff. He was a very easygoing guy, John. I think the only time I saw him got annoyed when he spilled some brewery sanitizer on his Country Joe and the Fish t-shirt that 01:02:00he had for so many years back in the '60s, you know, bleached part of his Country Joe t-shirt there, which was just about to fall apart anyway. I got a laugh out of that. He's a great guy. It was great to see him again after all these years.

TEM: I do want to hear about the plant that you came back to work with them on in the '90s. I'm curious about, what were some of the things that you were reminded about when you were down for the 30th anniversary. Were there things that you'd forgotten about that time, that conversations you had kind of sparked again?

FA: We mostly talked about how gray we'd all gotten [laughs].

TEM: [Laughs].

FA: Stuff like that. Well, no, you know we'd all done lots of different things 01:03:00in that time, of course, so there was lots of catching up to be done. My main thing when I went into the brew pub was to see how much it had, how busy it was, and how wonderful the staff was and so forth. The food and the beer was great and just buzzing, just buzzing, and how they had modified it to get more space in there, more people, and how happy, what a great time it was. The same in the park when they had that even in the park. Were you there for that?

TEM: I wasn't, but Anna was.

ANNA DVORAK: Yes. I was.

FA: Yeah. It was so great, such a thing, to see the families with the kids and all of this kind of thing. You know, this is the kind of thing that you wouldn't see in B.C. They're serving beer in a public park, there are families and stuff 01:04:00like that. I didn't see a single incident. I was there from noon until about 5:00, 5:30 or something like that signing books, and I didn't see a single unpleasant incident. I didn't see a single person who I would call drunk. You know, this is the kind of thing that the public just wouldn't be allowed up in Canada to be selling beer in a public park with kids around. It's totally misplaced paternalism, really, because it was just a wonderful atmosphere. Everybody having a good time. Wonderful.

TEM: Has that lightened up at all in Canada as far as those regulations? Do you feel like that's-?

FA: Oh, it has, yes. It definitely has. I mean, we sort of broke the ice and, I 01:05:00made a number of-the number of small brewery, craft breweries now in B.C. is somewhere in the 50, 60 range and increasing. It's, yeah, there's a lot more freedom, like these beer shows that they have and stuff like that, a lot more freedom to get a license for something like that, especially an events license.

TEM: It's so funny, because I often think of Canada as being more relaxed than America, which is this-I don't know why.

FA: In some ways. Yeah, the political scene is more relaxed, I'll tell you that.

TEM: Well, we're living in a special...

FA: But, yeah, apart from the, a little more relaxed than the upper reaches of the presidency, let's say.

TEM: Yes. That's fair.

FA: But, well, there's always been a paternalistic kind of attitude into the legal end of it, but it is getting better. There's no question about that. It's gotten much better in the last 10, 20 years.

TEM: Have you had a chance to go back to England to do any consulting with breweries there?

FA: No. Not really, no. One of the things why I ended up in the-I always say that people look to me like as though I've got some kind of brewery or something like that, but I say I was the right guy in the right place at the right time with the right knowledge, and I could write. That's about the sum total of it. Back in England there are lots of people with the same kind of academic 01:07:00qualifications as me, who have similar kind of background, been exposed to all kinds of brewing and so forth like that. So, I wouldn't be so unique there as I became in Canada and The States.

TEM: That makes sense. So, what was it like to come back in the mid '90s to design this much expanded facility for Deschutes?

FA: Well, it was great. Mostly I did the design work from my home here and would bounce ideas off of Gary and off of-well, they decided to go with JC Northwest, who were stainless fabricators outside of Portland. That was great. You know, by this time I'm very used to stainless fabrication and all of this kind of thing and all the fittings and different things that come into it, so I was able to 01:08:00contribute quite a bit of knowledge to them that way, like, I think one of the things from the experience that I remember that I put in the book was the vessels without legs kind of thing, which is the way to go if you can design the building around the brewery instead of the brewery around the building, which is the case with most of my jobs have come from people who already have a building and they want me to fit a brewery into it. It's up to be to try to solve the problems so you get a brewery. When you're doing something like building a brewery from scratch like that, you can do lots of desirable things, let's put it that way, so that the building is really part of the brewery. Yeah, well, the 01:09:00vessels without legs is quite simply-I got a call from the architect saying that if the vessels look like the ones in the brew pub, which have legs, of course, then he couldn't possibly get in a 12-foot ceiling and the thing would be sixty foot high plus. I said, no, there's another way to do it, which is the vessels are sunk into the floor, and the floor is designed to support the weight so they don't need legs at all, and the manways are just at a convenient height for the brewers, just at about 3 or 4 feet high. That's the desirable thing that you can get it you can design the building as well as the brewery.

The first thing for me to do was to design that tower because Gary wanted it all 01:10:00to be gravity flow at the beginning, which is just the way traditional breweries were constructed because they didn't have any electric pumps in those days for pumping the liquids around, so they ran from the top to the bottom, you see, as the process went on. Anyway, it was originally 5 floors, but it was still a bit too tall, so we comprised by changing the process very, very slightly and ended up being 4 stories and the basement, as you know. I did quite a lot of that work from-I flew down to Portland to meet up with Gary and go see the engineers at JC Northwest and we would hammer out a whole lot of issues there and, of course, we 01:11:00were all talking on the phone and this kind of thing, faxing draws and specs and that kind of thing.

TEM: I'm curious about your perception of the change in the kind of shift that happened in the mid '90s in the northwest. Did you feel like, I mean, we certainly saw an increase in the number of breweries. What are some things that kind of stand out in your mind from that mid '90s industry standpoint or industry perspective?

FA: Yes. The craft breweries had gotten bigger, for sure because they were in the volume business and the bigger volume it produced, the production costs go down dramatically. So, they always want to, you know, get more business, sell more beer, and be able to brew larger volumes, because that's going to improve your profitability. It also helps improve the consistency of the product, which 01:12:00is always a problem when you're brewing a batch-wise system. So, they have generally gotten bigger, and just because, also because they have to survive. That's the thing. They've gotten bigger and some have remained, almost determinedly small, because they just got enough business, especially in small towns and that kind of thing, where they got the place more or less saturated with beer, so they don't need that. They don't need to go that big. But if you're in the city, any city, Vancouver or whatever, the way to go is to get big, really.

TEM: Do you feel like, well, what are some of the challenges, then, from a facility standpoint that maybe people haven't overcome or have overcome in that run to get bigger?

FA: There is no reason why you can't produce a perfectly excellent beer at a bigger brewery. It's just a matter of getting the right ingredients and the right processing, the right time. Aging is a big factor in beer production. You always have to have sufficient tanks to age the beer to sufficient lengths. You do yourself a big disservice if you sell beer that's not aged enough. So, also, the quality has gone up. The quality has improved, not gone the other way with 01:14:00people like Gary and stuff like that producing these beers not only in the brew pub but in the big brewery and they make sure they are just as good from the big brewery as they are from the small operation. You've got more flexibility with a small operation, because you're only making small batches, so you can make a rainbow variety of beers. Whereas as the breweries get bigger the question about can we sell this volume of this quirky beer, this kind of thing happens. You obviously, the more curious the beer is from the point of view of flavor, the smaller the market is, basically. So, you have to consider that.

TEM: What's something that has been really exciting to you style-wise or process-wise that now when you think back to moving even in starting that job at O'Keefes. What's something now that feels really exciting to you about the industry or a change that's been really exciting?

FA: Well, I mean, the whole craft beer movement is astonishing. It's astonished me. I wrote my book after getting John set up in the little Horseshoe Bay brewery there. He had this wonderful little brewery and it was an instant success and I thought, well, I'll go back home now to the country and that'll be that for quite some time. I wasn't expecting getting, I won't say constant phone calls, but a lot of calls from different people all over the world, really, to 01:16:00help them set up breweries because I was the guy, you know. They'd go and have a look at John Mitchell's operation and they loved the beer and stuff like that. They'd say, well, how did you learn how to do this? He'd say, phone Frank. So, you know, I was quite busy there. As I say, I did 20 of these things in 25 years, something like that.

TEM: How do you feel like the clients-

FA: That in itself is an amazing story.

TEM: Yeah. How did those clients change over time?

FA: The clients?

TEM: Yeah.

FA: Well, it's not just the Brits anymore that are coming in for a good pint of bitter. It's everybody, and it's really taken hold, including women, which is 01:17:00very good to see. Women will drank a dark beer [laughs]. Well, I knew they would and my mother used to drink stout, so, you know [laughs]. It was one of her favorite drinks. Naturally, that kind of stout is prescribed by doctors in some English hospitals for patients recovering, you know that?

TEM: That sounds like a good, that's a good medicine.

FA: Yeah. It's restorative, I guess, you would say.

TEM: What are some styles now that are exciting to you or appeal to you as a microbiologist?

FA: There's different things happening, of course. They're trying all kinds of different things, things like hefeweizen, which is a yeasty wheat beer. A very 01:18:00nice summer beer. I think I mentioned in the book that one of my proteges there, Ian Hill, who was a brew master at that time that I trained in Yaletown Brew pub in Vancouver there. He had taken the reigns and has been doing that for some years. I was involved in starting one up in Whistler, the ski resort area, that was owned by the same man who had started up Yaletown. I went into Yaletown to see and then talk about some issues, and he says, here try this. This big, tall glass of pink beer, pink, a little bit cloudy beer. I said, what the heck is this? He says, raspberry hefeweizen. Try it. It was just so good. Now, this is, 01:19:00as I put in the book, made as a more traditional malt and hops man, you know, I would have never brewed a beer like that. It would have never occurred to me that you could sell a beer like that. You know, pink? It was the most delicious, refreshing beer. It's light and it's, you know, has raspberry flavor, and wonderful zesty aroma and so forth, served very cold, just wonderful on a hot summer's day, just wonderful. That kind of thing. Of course, they're using different kinds of yeast and they're even making sour beers these days. It probably would have been thrown out, but they are using organisms, like 01:20:00Brettanomyces, which is a wild yeast, to induce other kinds of flavors. A lot of experimenting going on, all which is good. Not all of which will be accepted out in the wider public sphere, but it's all good because that's how people learn.

TEM: What has been, what has it been like to write a book, a memoir, about this time and then go out and talk to people about your experiences now, you know, however many years into it? Forty years into it?

FA: Yeah.

TEM: What has that been like to tour around talking to people about-?

FA: Oh, it's great. It's great. People are interested. People like beer. People are interested in beer. People are interested in how it's made, all of the different aspect of it and that kind of thing. They want to talk to me about my 01:21:00experiences and the different places I've been to make breweries and all of it. There is a lot of interest. It's great. It's not like being in the accounting department or something like that. Nobody ever comes to see how your books are. People like beer. It's an ancient product, right? It goes back to ancient Egypt. That's when they started making beer, and I always try to instill that thought in my trainee brewers or any other brewers that I talk to. It's an ancient and honorable craft, and the brew master is esteemed by, and should be, by society, because of the knowledge that it requires to do the thing right and all the 01:22:00various things you need to know to be a brew master. When you have reached that exalted stage and you come into the brewery there in the morning when it's still silent and beautiful, gleaming vessels and stuff like that and you start out to make a brew, you just take a minute and say, I am a brewer. I will uphold the sacred trust that people put in me by making the best product that I possibly can.

TEM: I feel like clapping. That was beautiful. Well, and I think that, I imagine, too, as the person who has had such an important role in designing those facilities that that must feel great to have products but also-

FA: Yeah, it's important to me because I have experienced it from all directions, including, you know up to my armpits in mash and that kind of thing 01:23:00in getting the thing made. I'm not just an academic. I've got that background, but I appreciate my brewers and I appreciate them to the extent that when I design my plants I design them so that the brewer has a relatively easy job. It's not drudgery. There's nothing worse than having a brewer getting disaffected with his job because it's tough. It's hard to do. There's a lot of things that could have been differently when the plant was being designed that would have made his life easier. I talk about owners who, when I'm talking about putting the malt mill, for example, in the highest part of the building, because then you get that gravity feed but there's always an issue of getting the malt 01:24:00up to that location, and you'd say, okay, well, in one brewery that I designed there's a freight elevator. In other cases, it's blown in by pneumatic means and that kind of things. These things cost money. I've had one more than one owner say, well, can't the brewer just carry the sacks of malt up the stairs on his back? I say, that's when I walk away. If you insist on doing that, I'm walking away from this job because I don't do that. That's sheer drudgery. There's no reason these days why he has to do that. There are other ways to do it. It just means you have to spend some money on the equipment. I'm always thinking of the brewer's day and how to make it reasonable for him, not a drudgery. I mean, it's a workout, anyway, a day's brewing. You know, you want to make it that much easier for him.

TEM: Do you feel like that has changed, where when people are designing breweries they are really thinking more about not just having somebody carry sacks but building in that kind of protection for workers into facility design? Do you feel like that's something that's more a part of the conversation now?

FA: Well, it certainly should be. It certainly should be. I have turned down jobs because of differences between me and the owners on how much money should be spent on what and things like floorplans. For instance, some owners want to turn them into a showpiece. Nothing the matter with that, but I have a problem 01:26:00when it's like a goldfish bowl that the brewer has to work in, with people sat around at tables on the other side of the glass pointing fingers and that kind of thing. I mentioned that in the chapter that I talk about the tale of two different brew pubs in different cities in Canada. You know, if people won't take my advice, I usually walk away. I'm sorry, you know, you employ me because you value my expert opinion, and then you're not going to do it? You're wasting your money.

TEM: Well, and it seems like that's-

FA: Sorry?

TEM: Oh, I was going to say that seems like a bad sign from the very beginning, too, that somebody that doesn't want to-

FA: Yeah. You've got to love people like Gary Fish who, for example, went and took a course at the University of California Davis, which is a big agricultural college. He took courses there not because he was going to do the brewing, but 01:27:00because he wanted to understand the brewing process and understand what it takes to be a brewer and this kind of thing, just full of understanding for all aspects of the process and not putting the brewer into ridiculous situations or jobs that he wouldn't have to do if it was property designed. You make it easier for him, you make it easier for him to make great recipes.

TEM: Was there something in our conversation that you thought we would talk about that I haven't asked or that we haven't touched on?

FA: I'm not sure.

TEM: [Laughs] Was there an answer that you had prepared that you haven't had a chance to give?

FA: No. I was just kind of leafing through my book, and I think most of what we've talked about I covered.

TEM: Yeah, and, well, it was interesting for me, I thought a lot about early northwest brewing, and it was interesting to see those kind of overlaps and this kind of northwest region, but also just how, like you were saying, this is an, it's an ancient craft and you can change things, but very fundamental facets still stay the same no matter where you are.

FA: Yeah. Exactly. You can make beer out of a lot of different cereal products and that kind of thing. You can make all kinds of different beers for your own consumption, and I do that here, but I'm not, I wouldn't attempt a mass market with them. You have to be aware of what's going on in the marketplace. I mean, 01:29:00the marketplace has improved. I mean, it was zero in 1982 when we started up as far as the kind of beers that we have to offer. It's changed a heck of a lot now, and one of the most satisfying things to me is not only the number that's popped up but the number of different things that they're trying. There are different varieties of beers and things like that, like I said about Ian Hill and his raspberry hefeweizen. I would have never thought of brewing a beer like that. It takes a younger man to dream up something like that. Say, okay, I'm going to make 16 hectoliters of it. I would worry about whether it's going to sell, but I know that Ian Hill's 16 hectoliters sold out in about 2 weeks. 01:30:00Somewhere where you're brewing beers for that, you see, and the heavier products for the wintertime, more alcoholic, more body to them, that kind of thing. Anyway, just a variety of the products that are coming out of these little breweries are just amazing. It's very satisfying to me, and it's very satisfying to get together with a crowd of brewers and talk about all the different products and aspects and things. They're teaching me something now.

TEM: Yeah, which is good. I imagine that lifelong learning aspect of this profession in this area that that creativity can just keep growing, learning can keep growing.

FA: Yeah, it's a wonderful business to be in and people love the products and 01:31:00they like talking about them and stuff like that. There's nothing better than talking about beer over a good beer. You're making me thirsty with all this talking about it.

TEM: I know. Anna and I are not drinking beer [laughs]. Well, thank you so much, Frank, for talking with us. I'm glad that the technology worked for us, and we appreciate that you wrote a book because it made it quite easy for us to interview you.

FA: Yeah, really, well, I'm glad you read it, because it's got all the, really, all the answers to the questions you're likely to ask in there.

TEM: It gave us more questions to ask.

FA: Uh-huh, right. Well, very good. Nice talking to you.

TEM: Yeah, nice talking to you.

FA: I hope your project works out.

TEM: Alright. Thanks a lot!

FA: What's going to happen to it? It's going into some kind of archive?

TEM: Yes. So, it will go into the archives here at the library where we are, physically.

FA: The library being which library where?

TEM: At Oregon State University.

FA: Right. Okay.

TEM: We have other oral histories that are part of the archives collection. So, yes. It will become part of this larger collection of oral histories that is quite eclectic now. So, I think it's a growing body of oral histories, but a really diverse assortment of stories as well.

FA: I see. Very good. That's quite original.

TEM: It is. It is. Yes.

FA: Good.

TEM: So, you will be one of the voices, one of the stories that's in that larger collection in the archives.

FA: Oh, very good.

TEM: Yeah.

FA: Okay, well, I hope I did alright.

TEM: You did.

FA: Good. Alright then.

TEM: Alright, thanks!

FA: Take care.

AD: Thank you.

TEM: You, too! Bye.

FA: Alright, bye, bye now.