Lisa and Rick Allen Oral History Interview, October 20, 2016

TIAH EDMUNSON-MORTON: Okay.

LISA ALLEN: Okay. Name is Elizabeth Allen. I got by Lisa. Date of birth Mary 23, 1983. Date today-October 20, 2016, and we are in McMinnville, Oregon.

TEM: Nice. You nailed all four. So, you've lived in Oregon your whole life?

LA: Pretty much, yeah.

TEM: Where were you born?

LA: In Portland. Born in Portland.

TEM: Then where did you grow up?

LA: Grew up in Tualatin for the most part. There was a short stint in my, after my sophomore year in high school my family moved to the Bay Area. I lived there for a year. My parents lived were there for two years before coming back. I didn't like the high school I went to, so I came back for my senior year.

TEM: Where were you living?

LA: In a town called Moraga. It's in the East Bay.

TEM: Was that a big difference from there to 00:01:00 here?

LA: It was. It was like [background laugh], my dad is laughing in the background. It was, which I, I mean, Tualatin I think is kind of seen as a sheltered community and so I was like, oh, this will be cool. I'll be going to a different school, blah, blah, blah. The community that I went to was 10 times more sheltered than Tualatin. It was very upper middle class, upper class families, families that had lived in that same town for generation upon generation upon generation. So, it was just like really hard to make friends and all of that sort of stuff.

TEM: Is it east of Orinda and Walnut Creek?

LA: It's between Orinda and Walnut Creek, actually. It's like Orinda is, Moraga's kind of like up from Orinda a little bit and then you go down and there's 00:02:00Lafayette and then Walnut Creek is on the other side of Lafayette. I think it was, it definitely was in an interesting experience and stuff like that, and I think it shaped the person that I am in a lot of ways, but it was not the most fun, and I tell my parents, too. I had a situation where I could stay with a kind of a friend of a friend. If that hadn't happened I would have been fine going to that school my senior year, but I think I probably had a better senior by going back to Tualatin and being with my really good friends.

TEM: What did you, before you had that year off from Oregon, what were the things that you were interested in doing when you were younger?

LA: I was, let's see, I was into a lot of different things. I played soccer growing 00:03:00up, like any good Oregon child, I feel like. I was really into, I drew a lot. I liked drawing. I'm trying to think. I really liked, I want to say almost like exploring things. Where I grew was kind of a residential development and when I was in elementary school behind us had been an orchard and they cut down the orchard and started building houses behind there, and so I really liked to go and explore in the half built houses and stuff. I really was into movies a lot when I was younger. I really liked swimming, and in all sorts of bodies of water. Actually pool was probably my least favorite. I loved going 00:04:00swimming, loved being in the water. I'm trying to think. I liked a lot of different things when I was little. I've always had a lot of different interests. I think like a lot of girls I played with barbies and did all of that sort of stuff, liked hanging around with my older brother and his friends, much to their dismay, I think.

TEM: How much older was he?

LA: He's 2 years, well, 2 and a half years, but 2 years in school.

TEM: What about academically or scholastically? What were the spots or the spots or the places you liked and excelled?

LA: I really liked, I've always probably been best at science and math. I think my interests leaned more towards history and English but I was actually 00:05:00better, I think, at science and math. I've always really liked science, especially in high school when I was introduced to chemistry. I was really good at chemistry, just like it clicked for me. Physics, too. More of the math-y sciences, I would say. I wish I would have, that's one thing I wish I would have paid more attention to that or been pushed more in that direction. For a long time I thought I wanted to be in the medical field, so I would concentrate on biology but I really wasn't that good at biology. It wasn't that interesting to me, so I couldn't.

TEM: It's like theoretically it's interesting to be in medical field, but maybe not.

LA: I mean, I liked, the thing I liked was genetics, which is essentially the more math-y part of biology, I'm like 00:06:00okay. I was interested in geology, too. I wanted for a really long time I wanted to be a paleontologist when I was little. There was an astronaut phase, too.

TEM: So, it's like really earth-based and then space.

LA: Exactly, yeah.

TEM: So, we hear a lot about STEM education for girls now. Is that something that you felt like your interest in science was fostered through the schools? Was that a thing for you growing up?

LA: I don't really think so. I mean, I don't think that, I think in a sense it was just kind of like what I enjoyed and what I was better at. I wasn't one of those 00:07:00kids that had chemistry, take-home chemistry kits or anything like that. In school it was something that came really easily to me. I remember I was always put in the, in elementary school we had an advanced math group that I was in until we hit fractions. For some reason, none of us could do fractions. All of the advanced kids were like what's going on? Yeah. I don't know. I don't think, and I don't think it was pushed in any direction. I don't' think that I was at all kind of pushed in the other direction, either, to do more like English and history and stuff like that. I think the school district I went to was kind of good at getting opportunities to anyone who showed promise or whatever in that 00:08:00 field.

TEM: Follow your interests.

LA: Yeah, exactly.

TEM: Did you go to Portland a lot? You talked about Tualatin, the imagine of Tualatin as be sheltered. What was the city like?

LA: I would say pretty frequently went to Portland, especially once I had friends that could drive and could drive myself, but we would go to Portland and not really do that much, but it was still like getting out of the suburbs and going elsewhere, I guess. With my mom, too, we would always go shopping and stuff like that in Portland. I mean, we wouldn't always go to Portland but we would frequently go to Portland. The big city.

TEM: The big city.

LA: It's only 15 minutes away and that's what people 00:09:00actually, when I tell, people assume being in McMinnville now that I grew up here. It's like, oh, no. I grew up in Tualatin. I've had a couple people say, well, same thing. I'm like, actually it's kind of different because in McMinnville you have, you are an hour from Portland. You do have, I think you have more talking about sheltering, it is like, you do have a lot of families that have lived here for generations. You do have a certain sheltered community because you have only have one high school. It's still relatively small, and with Tualatin you're still relatively close to all of these other places. It's not, I mean it's a different experience just having that and having maybe a little bit more diversity, too.

TEM: In 00:10:00 Tualatin?

LA: Yeah, even though we didn't have that much. I mean, Oregon doesn't have much diversity anyway.

TEM: It's close to I-5.

LA: Yeah. Exactly. You can go more places.

TEM: More from Washington.

LA: I mean, you do, I didn't have, I mean here you have kids whose parents went to high school together and their friends and their parents went to school together and all of that stuff. In Tualatin you didn't really have that. It's more like families that are starting in an essentially like a new place, that sort of thing.

TEM: What was the community like there? I know when you're younger... it's something you pay attention to more when you're older. But what was the community like as a whole?

LA: I would say where I grew up, which was close to I-5 near Meridian Park Hospital, it 00:11:00was, I mean it was good for us because there were a lot of kids our own ages. I think for my brother and I there were a lot of kids that were around our age. I mean, one of my really good friends I'm still friends with lived in that neighborhood. Actually, her parents still live in the house that she grew up in. Then one of my other really good friends live 4 houses down from me that I'm still friends, in contact with and still friends with. There are just lots of...so, you had an easy way to meet people your own age and stuff like that. As an adult, I think my mom-my dad was working a lot. I think my mom found a community to be a part of through us. I was involved in Girl Scouts and my mom was the leader and the she also was a 00:12:00runner, and so found community through that and like a book club. She actually still goes to a book club that she went to from that neighborhood, even though a lot of the ladies, there are a few ladies still live in that neighborhood but I don't, I actually only think there's like 2 or 3 that still live in that neighborhood. The rest have moved, but they still meet up for...

TEM: I guess that's the benefit of the suburbs.

LA: Yeah.

TEM: You can form those more personal relationships.

LA: Yeah. I mean I think it would be interesting to go back to that neighborhood now to see what it's like, to see if it's all these people that have just decided to stay in the houses, or if it is new families moving in and that sort of thing.

TEM: Well, the character of Portland and its suburbs changes and shifts.

LA: Well, and we lived in, and I think, too, we 00:13:00lived walking distance from the elementary school that I went to. That was nice, too. Actually, my friend that I was talking about whose parents still live in the neighborhood, the elementary school was about halfway between each of our houses, so we would meet there. We'd walk to meet there, and it was just like think it's kind of weird where how much we did when we were younger without parental supervision that people freak out about now.

TEM: Your riding your bike by yourself?

LA: Yeah. I know. Exactly. And we didn't have cell phones, either.

TEM: Yes. That is [laughs]. That's the big change. You might have gotten lost and then what would have happened?

LA: Exactly.

TEM: So, what was the impetuous behind the family move, then, my junior year?

LA: My dad got a new position. He worked, his original before he started the brewery he worked for Wells Fargo. He worked as a 00:14:00banker selling securities. I think that's what it was. He got moved from Portland down to San Francisco, and he was like the sales manager for the west coast. It was easier to have him based out of San Francisco than based out of Portland. Then that didn't, he only had that job for 2 years, essentially, because Wells Fargo being based in Minneapolis didn't understand how expensive it is to live in the Bay Area. So, when he's the manager of the salespeople, and the salespeople are making more money than he is, that's not the best.

TEM: Then at that point your brother was out of the house?

LA: Yeah. It was his, we finished-my dad had been traveling down to San Francisco a lot that 00:15:00year, but we waited to move until he was done because it was his senior year. So, we moved after his senior year.

TEM: I mean, especially the east, East Bay is not a cheap place. That section of the East Bay for sure.

LA: No, yeah. Well, it's insane. The house that they bought, I think they sold it-granted they completely redid the kitchen, so it was a lot nicer than when we moved in. I think they, I want to say, and it was kind of when housing was starting to go up, too. I feel like they sold it for at least $100,000 more and it was two years, at least $100,000 more than they bought it for, and I think it actually might have been more like $200,000 more. It was ridiculous.

TEM: A lot.

LA: Yeah.

TEM: What were some of the things that you got exposed to or... you talked about the change that 00:16:00 happened.

LA: Yeah.

TEM: What were some of the things that you were exposed to there that you weren't here?

LA: I think it allowed me to be a little bit more outgoing. I had always grown up being pretty shy and so I think that kind of forced me out of my comfort zone in that way where I had to be open and stuff and meet new people. I did a lot of things on my own, so I had-I could drive at that point, and my parents let me drive into Walnut Creek or whatever if I wanted to go shopping, (I got a job) when I got my first job and stuff like that. Learning how to work and manage my own money and all of that sort of stuff, and then even going into San Francisco, going into the 00:17:00city and stuff like that. That had just given me, I mean, forcing myself to be more outgoing but at the same time learning also how to be more self-sufficient, I think, and learning how to do things on my own and not being afraid to do things on my own. I got lost a lot, because, again, this is before GPS, before cell phones. I'd look up on the computer, print out Mapquest directions and figure out, and oftentimes I'd make a wrong turn and that kind of allowed me not to stress out in those situations and just roll with it and be, okay, we'll turn around here.

TEM: Culturally, what are the things that you remember as being culturally different and the east, East Bay?

LA: I'd say people were a lot more relaxed in 00:18:00Portland, especially I would say that it was superficial. The school I went to people would drive their cars to school just to show off their car even if they lived two blocks from the school and stuff like that, very brand-conscious and stuff like that. I think a lot of teenagers are that way to a certain extent, but I never really noticed that from my friends in Tualatin, people caring about what shoes you're wearing and that sort of stuff. Obviously there were trends and people wanted to fit into those trends, but it was just a lot more, I would say, people trying to impress other people there than it was at 00:19:00Tualatin. There were lots of nice people I met, too, and lots of really cool people, but it just, it was.

TEM: There are so many micro communities, I think, in that whole San Francisco Bay area within easy driving distance. It can feel totally, radically different.

LA: Yeah. Actually, so my job was in Lafayette and I kind of wish I went to high school there because I think it would have been a completely different experience and some of the friends that I met through work went to that high school, and so that was just a better, I think, that probably would have been a better fit for me. I also think, I mean, I think it was really hard, too, because you have people who have, you have your friend group and all of that stuff. When you have a new kid that comes to 00:20:00town, it's hard for some people to reach out.

TEM: Well, especially at that junior year.

LA: Yeah.

TEM: With people who have been together presumably since kindergarten.

LA: Yeah, exactly.

TEM: Or possibly since kindergarten. So, then you decide to come back. Then did you live with a friend back here?

LA: Yeah, somewhat a weird situation. My best friend she lived next door to this woman, Carol, who had a daughter who had just graduated, or who was at this time when we were setting it up was about to graduate, and her husband had taken a job working in Tacoma, so he was gone most of the week and would come back on weekends, and then her only daughter was going away to college. She actually offered, and I knew Carol and stuff like 00:21:00that. It wasn't just a random person. She had been involved with Girl Scouts with my mom and all of that sort of stuff, and I think they were talking about it, and she's like Lisa can come stay with me. I would love to have someone in the house type of thing. So, I lived right next door to my best friend. Yeah, Carol allowed me to live with her for a year. That was really cool.

TEM: I'm just curious, did you, how it felt to come back, then, this place that you've lived for, the community that you've lived in, you take a year break, what was it like? Did you come back feeling reinvented?

LA: A little bit. I think I had less of the senioritis. I definitely wanted to get out but I think less of the senioritis than a lot of my friends did because I had gone away essentially for a year and had come back. It was funny because a lot of 00:22:00people, and even now my friends will talk about junior year, yeah, junior year when I was gone. They were like, oh you remember blah, blah, blah. I'm like, no, wasn't there. Wasn't there. Especially in college when we'd all get together. Now I really only see two, well, one of my friends from high school occasionally. The second one, but she lives in New York, so. Yeah, that happened a lot, especially like senior year and then in college and stuff like that when we'd all get together, like, oh yeah, remember this? It's like no, I wasn't there for that. They would say, it was just like you were like sick or something or just not there. You were there in spirit. Even people, like acquaintances at school and stuff like that they were like, you didn't go here last year? Kind of, and I was like, no. I wasn't here for an entire year and they're like, oh.

TEM: That's so funny.

LA: So it was just like I was like, yeah people didn't 00:23:00realize. I went back at one point and visited during the year-did I come back more than once? I know at least once, possibly twice, and people were like, you don't go here? I'm like, no.

TEM: Maybe it's a testament to how high schoolers pay attention.

LA: I know. Exactly. Yeah.

TEM: They're thinking about other stuff.

LA: Yeah, exactly. But, yeah, that's, I mean, it definitely, and I think it was not quite as difficult for me to transition, then, when I went away for freshman year of college because I had already lived away from my parents for a year and already experienced that.

TEM: When you were thinking about finishing up high school, planning, what did you think you wanted to study? Because you had a lot of varied interests and skills?

LA: I had not really that much of an idea [laughs]. I 00:24:00decided, kind of like, probably sophomore, junior year, I started getting into Egyptology type of stuff, and so I was like, okay, what can I do that's similar to that or getting me into that field, so I looked into archeology, anthropology, and that's actually what I ended up going towards at Oregon State. My whole idea was always that I was going to go for a couple of years to Oregon State and then I was going to switch schools. That never happened. Because there's no, if you actually want to go into being an Egyptologist, there's no Latin at Oregon State. You essentially need the Latin in order to do that career.

TEM: Was there ever a question of whether you would go to college?

LA: No. It was just assumed that I 00:25:00would go to college. Now looking at it, I wish, I know now a lot of kids are taking a year of in between high school and college and maybe going to community college, taking some classes, figuring out what they want to do. I kind of wish I would have done that, because at one point in college I did want to switch my major, but I kind of felt stuck. Even my advisor at Oregon State was like, well... you're going to have to do this and this and this if you do that and blah, blah, blah. I was like, okay, I guess I'm doing this then. I am curious if I would have switched to being a science major if I would have taken some classes at a community college and just worked for a year. But I felt like I had to go to school and so that's what ended up happening.

TEM: Did your parents move back to Tualatin, or did they 00:26:00move directly here to McMinnville?

LA: No, they moved to.... hey moved a lot after that

TEM: I guess there's another option.

LA: They moved a lot after that. They moved close by. The moved to Durham, which is kind of like in between Tigard and Tualatin, essentially where Bridgeport Village is, which did not exist when they lived there, of course. That was being built once they moved again.

TEM: But basically like Willamette, upper Willamette Valley.

LA: Yeah. I mean, close to Tualatin. I still was not very far from my friends and stuff like that.

TEM: What was it like, what are some of the things that you remember about your first months, first year at OSU?

LA: Oh, man.

TEM: Lasting impressions.

LA: Yeah. I was... I mean, go ahead.

TEM: I should say, I'd forgotten that any, so what year did you graduate from high school?

LA: I graduated from high school in 00:27:002001. So, I started September 2001 was when I started. Actually, so I tell people the school I really, really wanted to go to was NYU, and if I would have gone to NYU I would have been there during September 11, and then I probably would have come immediately home because it would have been like, fuck this. I'm not staying here. At Oregon State I was in the Poling Dorm. I'm just kind of amazed at how different people, people's attitudes are different in college versus high school. I became friends with people that I don't think I would have necessarily been friends with in high school, which I think is really cool because you just don't care as much, I guess, about like, you know, there's not the popular group and the nerdy group and stuff like that. I had a really 00:28:00cool floor and we got along really well and hung out a lot and that sort of thing. It was kind of weird. I had a very pretty roommate and so all these guys would always come knock on the door, is Crystal there? Is Crystal around? I'm like, no. She's not here [laughs].

TEM: What was dorm life like? What are some of the...?

LA: I mean, I definitely think staying up later than you usually would, I mean, I probably never went to bed before I would say 11:00 or midnight, which was unusual for me, because if I know I have to get up early I want to get a 00:29:00certain amount of sleep. I mean, you're around people essentially all the time, so that's kind of different, too. You're essentially around your friends all of the time, which is kind of fun. I played rugby at Oregon State, so that was a huge part of my life, too. I'd heard about the sport when I was actually in California. I had a friend that played, and he was telling me about it. I was like, I want to play this sport, and they didn't have high school rugby yet in Oregon. I think it started the year after I graduated or something. I was like, went to Oregon State, found the rugby team, signed up, and started playing that. That was a huge part of my life, practice and all that.

I 00:30:00mean, college is, it's all about meeting new people and stuff like that. I think it's different experience now. A lot of kids go in and they know the person they're rooming with and all of that stuff. It's actually funny, the girl who was my roommate for fall term I got a different roommate after that because she went and moved in with someone else, but she actually had also gone to Tualatin, but had graduated a year before me. We vaguely knew who one another was but didn't know each other very well or anything like that, but I was just like seriously? I'm trying to get a random roommate here and you put me with someone from Tualatin? She was never there either.

TEM: Was this the pretty one?

LA: Yes.

TEM: She knew guys would be knocking on the 00:31:00 door.

LA: Yeah.

TEM: I've heard a lot about the separation, students are on campus that never the town and campus shall meet. Did you feel like you lived in Corvallis? Or did you feel kind of university-bound? What was your impression of the whole city?

LA: I would say definitely freshman year I think you're more, especially because fall term I didn't bring my car to school, because I knew it would be ridiculous with football games and stuff. A couple of people had told me don't bother bringing your call in the fall because it's going to be ridiculous finding parking. I did feel like mostly, staying mostly on campus definitely my freshman year, and then I lived off-campus my other three years at Oregon State. I mean, you definitely for the most part I would say stay on Oregon State, on the campus. Even the shops that are on Monroe now didn't exist when I went to school 00:32:00there. Those became a thing, of course, right after I graduated. You have the Beanery that was there and American Dream Pizza and stuff like that, but that was about it. You didn't have the Dutch Brothers and the McMenamins and all that stuff that's there now.

TEM: I think there might be more than one tanning parlor, too.

LA: Probably. That never really concerned me.

TEM: They have a lot. When you were there, you're studying, you're in archeology, right?

LA: Yep.

TEM: So, you're studying archeology. Did you know people who were in the fermentation science program or was that something that was even on your radar at all?

LA: I kind of knew about it because I had a couple of classes in, it's Wiegand, right? Yeah. I had a couple classes in there, and so I would see the different things for 00:33:00dairy and all of that stuff, and then actually one of my roommates, she was a year younger than me but she was trying to figure out, she started as a math major and then changed to an engineering major and then actually was a fermentation science major. She decided on that. I think it was her sophomore that she figured it out, that, like I think second part of her sophomore year she was like, okay, this is what I want to do. So, I did. I knew her. Actually, so that's, I was like, I took an intro to beer, wine, and spirits class with her, and I was just like this is really cool. This could be something that I could see myself doing, and then I looked in-because my parents had always been into good beer and wine and stuff like that. I knew that that stuff existed, and I went and checked out what requirements for that major and I look into it and I'm just 00:34:00like, yeah. I would be here for another 3 or 4 years if I change my major, because I didn't have any of the background classes. I would have had to start all the way down at the bottom.

TEM: I can imagine there's probably more overlap with engineering than archeology.

LA: Yeah, exactly, and math.

TEM: At that point, definitely now the career that you're in, the work that you've done since graduating is very ingredient, flavor-focused. Were you into food? Was there, I don't know, a budding or established flavor person? That was a horrible question [laughs].

LA: I would say it was more, it was actually more alcohol-based. My dad being really into wine taught me how to 00:35:00taste at an early age. Not super early, but when I was probably a teenager, my dad would have me taste wine and stuff like that. I mean, I enjoyed cooking and that sort of thing, but I've never been very good and I think this is funny, I've never been super adventurous when I cook. I feel like I know other people that are just like, will put flavors together that you are like those aren't going to taste good and then it comes out. I'm less adventurous doing that sort of thing. I had always been that way, but yeah. I don't know. I was going to say I've always been, I have always been interested, though, like in, I would say, good win and good beer. I was the annoying kid when I was under 21 and would have people buy stuff for me and be like, can you get a 6 pack of Mirror 00:36:00Pond? They're like, no. You're getting Coors Light. I'm like, damn it. I was like, please? I'll pay you extra. But then they would make fun of me and stuff like that, so it's like, fine I'll take the Coors Light.

TEM: So, definitely the college-age craft beer snobbery had not reached down to the college yet?

LA: Yeah, and I will say, too, I was never one of those people that grew up with Budweiser in the fridge. It was always craft. My parents, even when there wasn't the good craft beer it was always Henry Weinhard's or something like that, which was at least a little bit more decent than some of the domestic stuff. I had my grandparents lived in Sun River. So, growing up I remember when Bend was like nothing of a town and my parents would like stop at Deschutes when it was like the only thing 00:37:00downtown and get growler fills and stuff like that of different beers and all of that sort of thing and going to McMenamins, because I think the beer has changed since then but my parents, we could go there, and my brother and I could get a burger and fries and they could have a decent beer.

TEM: It's funny to think about the difference in Bend between then and now, that that would be, that Deschutes would be one of the only, or if the only choice.

LA: Yeah. I mean, and there was like nothing in Bend. I mean, they had outlet malls. I mean, it's so much different now from when I was growing up. It's just ridiculous how much that place has grown.

TEM: Yeah.

LA: Going back to the flavor thing, and I did enjoy cooking. Actually, my friend and I, one of my other roommates (not the fermentation science major one) I would actually do a lot of the 00:38:00cooking and stuff like that. We had roles divided as like I would cook and she would clean up. It worked pretty well.

TEM: When you were at the end of your time at Oregon State, how did you, what was that concluding time like and how did you decide what to do next? Because obviously you're not an Egyptologist.

LA: Yeah, obviously not. I had no idea what I was going to do after college, because I knew if I wanted to continue pursuing archelogy I was going to have to go to, you essentially need a master's degree to get most jobs in archeology, and so I actually just decided to travel and I wanted to go to New Zealand, so I just was like, I'm going to travel and work in New Zealand for a year. That's what I decided, and so I got all of 00:39:00that, I got my visa and got all of that set up so I could go do that. Then I had something to tell people when they asked me, because I was tired of being like, I don't know.

TEM: Yeah.

LA: I just decided I'd do that. It's like I'm going to New Zealand. I'll figure it out when I get back because that's my plan for right now.

TEM: So what did you do there?

LA: I traveled a lot and I worked primarily, and I wasn't there for quite a year. I think I was there for about 6 months. I did get a little homesick. I primarily worked serving. I tried to find something else to do, but that was the easiest job to find and where I could make the most money and stuff, too.

TEM: That's the other side of the globe. That's a big leap.

LA: Yeah. It was 00:40:00 fun.

TEM: Were you there for, did you get the whole year of summer?

LA: Yeah. I did. So I actually left in October, beginning of October 2005. I was there until March of 2006, and it was really weird, though. So I get back and it had been still relatively warm in New Zealand. They were just kind of getting into fall when I left, and drive to, my parents were living at the coast at this point, and get there and the next, I think it was the day or a couple of days after I got back it snowed here and on the coast. There was snow, which never happens. And I was like seriously?

TEM: Well, you have to have winter.

LA: Exactly, it's like we're not going to do an easy transition for you. It's just going to go straight to 00:41:00snow. That was an interesting experience.

TEM: But you got a year of summer, so that's a good chunk.

LA: Yes. I did. That's really weird. Being in, I remember calling my parents like Christmas Eve, I think, and I'm in shorts and standing outside and it's like a beautiful day, being like, yep. It's really nice here.

TEM: When you came back what was, you'd had a break. So, how did you make the transition to wine, then, at that point?

LA: It was a couple years. I actually worked as a server for a few years. So, I worked, I was living close to Pacific Cities. I actually got a job at Pelican, working as a server for the summer and then actually went and helped open the McMenamins on Monroe, had the shittiest 00:42:00manager I have ever dealt with in my entire life. Luckily I don't think he works for the company anymore, and worked there until I think February. I think I started in September, was there until February, went back to Pelican for another summer and then that's when I started, I worked at Brick House Winery in fall of 2007. My parents were good friends with the owners of Brick House, so I got a job working harvest there and was also studying to take the GREs and doing that sort of stuff while I was doing harvest, because I was thinking about going to grad school. So, I took the GREs and was actually also applying to grad school and stuff like that in historic 00:43:00preservation, and my friend I was working harvest with, she actually had just come from working a harvest spring of 2007, well, our spring of 2007 in New Zealand. So, we were talking a lot about New Zealand, and she convinced me to go back to New Zealand to work a wine harvest in 2008, because she had her boyfriend at the time (now they're married), he worked at this place. She's like, I can totally get a you a job there, blah, blah, blah. I was like, tempting. So, I'd essentially applied for all my grad school, that was stuff was done, and then I left for New Zealand like at the end of February to work harvest down there in 2008. That's' when I realized, I had been accepted into grad school at that point, actually in England, was planning on going to England to do historic preservation, get my master's, and kind of really thought about it and was like, I don't 00:44:00know if I actually want to do this, because I'm probably going to end up sitting at a desk my entire life, which I don't really know I want to do. That's when I was looking more towards wine when I got back from New Zealand.

TEM: Were you interested at being at Pelican or being at McMenamins and then doing harvest, were you interested in the production side of it? Did you find yourself hanging out the brewery room?

LA: Yeah. I would ask, well, at that time, too, is when my dad was starting Heater Allen, because he started Heater Allen in 2007, officially, and I would talk to the brewers a lot at Pelican, too. Well, not the brewers I would talk to Ben Love, who is now at Gigantic. But Darren's a little scary. Well, he's not now, but then he was kind of a little scary. But, yeah, I would talk to them 00:45:00and I mean I would brew with my dad on occasion and stuff like that and ask about the process sand stuff like that, so I knew what was going on. I mean, I didn't delve too deep into it then, but I knew the idea behind brewing and that kind of stuff.

TEM: And you were curious.

LA: Even the brewer at McMenamin's, I would come in and ask him, how's the brew day going? What's going on? What are you brewing? Da, da, da. One of those people, because, you know, and then especially after working in the line too you become more interested in the process and looking at what they're doing and that sort of thing after doing the actual production yourself.

TEM: Yeah, it seems like your, I can imagine that the product would be appealing to make it, not just pick it. 00:46:00So, when you came back from New Zealand then you'd made the decision not to go to grad school and then was it a natural transition or a sort of easy transition?

LA: Yeah. I kind of realized when I was in New Zealand that I was kind of like I do think I do want to do this wine stuff. I like the process of it. I like being involved in making something. I think that's really cool and, I mean I kind of had a little bit of a knack for it, I think. I started trying to, I worked, I'd essentially already been promised a job at Nick's Italian Café here in town for when I got back from New Zealand to work the summer there, and so I was working there and then also trying to find a job in the wine industry. It's kind of 00:47:00hard, I was looking a little bit too early for harvest. So, it was really hard to try and find a seller position. So I actually ended up working at Argyle in the tasting room. I actually interviewed for the both the seller position and the tasting room job. It's funny because the assistant wine maker who interviewed me, he's not there anymore, but he actually told me, he's like, I wish we would have hired you in the seller. I was like, you should have hired me in the seller, you jerk. No, but, I mean I think it was good to have that experience and to learn. I had the serving part down, so I knew how to talk to people and that sort of thing and that actually allowed me to start taking classes at Chemeketa in the wine making program there.

TEM: Culturally, can you talk a little bit about what it was like to be both, to have your feet in both worlds? To have your foot in the wine world and the beer 00:48:00world? What was it like in the mid to late 2000s?

LA: I would say, I mean, I didn't... it was, I mean, it's hard to-they're very similar but I think very different at the same time. The wine world, one thing that I've noticed about the wine world is people are, there's not as much a sharing of information as there is in beer. I don't think I really realized that as much, though, until I started working, I don't think I really realized the difference as much until I started working full time at the brewery. When I started full 00:49:00time at the brewery, I took time off to work a harvest at a winery, too, and I think that is when I really realized the difference between the two, but I don't know. Because wine is so seasonal, too, it's a different kind of experience because you have, you're so busy during one time of the year, whereas with beer, you know, you're spread out throughout the whole time.

TEM: Did you feel any difference in, or were you aware of gender, being a woman, felt different in one industry or another industry?

LA: Not really. I mean, I actually would think that being in some ways, I mean, I think I've, I experienced 00:50:00more like being as a woman in the beer industry than I did in the wine industry because I really was just a harvest worker and stuff like that. I mean I would get, I would say at the tasting, when I worked in the tasting room there were certain people that would talk down to you because you're a tasting room worker and it's like, you know, and you're a woman. Whereas it's like I'm actually taking wine classes, you jerk. I probably know more about this than you do. But for the most part the guys at Argyle, too, the wine makers there, I mean the seller was mostly men but they were super cool about answering questions and didn't treat me like some question was stupid or anything like that. I don't know how it would have been working there, but as a tasting room person coming in and asking them questions that sort of 00:51:00thing, they were very responsive and nice and stuff like that. I think the places the other places I worked harvest and stuff like that, I never thought I was being left out for being a woman and stuff like that.

TEM: I mean, I guess, you're in different positions, too.

LA: Yeah, exactly.

TEM: It's hard to tell whether it's your position in the hierarchy.

LA: Yeah. Exactly.

TEM: So, you finished the certificate in wine making, but then how long...

LA: I didn't technically finish it [laughs]. I'd taken most of the classes. There were a couple of classes I didn't think and I actually think, I found a loophole in Oregon State's rules where if I took a certain class I didn't have to take a speech class. Which I don't mind giving speeches, I just, I was like all my friends told me how awful this 00:52:00class was and stuff like that. So, I found a loophole where if you took an extra writing class you didn't have to take this speech class. I think it had to be a certain writing class, and the one I took was a journalism class, a newspaper writing class. In order to actually, I think I, I think there are a couple of wine making classes I actually didn't go to, because one was during harvest. I was always working harvest, so I never actually took that class. Then, actually did I take that class? Now I can't remember. No I don't think I took that class. I'm like, now I can't remember if I did. Because I still was taking some classes while I was working at the brewery, too. So, I didn't take this speech class. That was technically required by Chemeketa for me to officially get my certificate in wine making.

TEM: That's pretty funny.

LA: But I'd taken most of the classes.

TEM: So what year did you leave 00:53:00Chemeketa with almost a completed wine making certificate?

LA: 2010, I think was the last like spring of 2010 was the last term I took classes.

TEM: At that point, though, were you feeling like you were becoming more solidly a brewer?

LA: Yeah, so I started at the brewery after I worked at a harvest down in Napa in 2009, and that was when my dad was like, could you help me at the brewery before you, because I was thinking about going and working in Australia. He's like will you help me in the brewery for a little bit. I was like, yeah. It'd be nice to just live in one place for a while and stay put. So, I would say, and I mean I was cleaning a lot of kegs and doing a lot of grunt work type stuff, but I think that's definitely when I started to get more interested in brewing. 00:54:00Then I would say when I worked harvest in 2010 after that I was like kind of more into beer than I was into wine.

TEM: I guess flashing forward a little bit to that 2010 point and thinking about what the industry was like, so you're close enough to Portland, certainly you feel the influence of Portland.

LA: Yeah.

TEM: But your far enough away that McMinnville is a...

LA: It's very much a wine town, yeah.

TEM: Yeah. So, what was that like being in the beer industry in a wine town?

LA: Recently it's gotten better, but I would say that sometimes it's frustrating because we don't, I mean even in our own town I don't think we get enough recognition and stuff like 00:55:00that. I think people are, when they find out, oh you make Heater Allen. You guys make really good beer, but, I mean there still are a bunch of people that are like there's a brewery here? Besides Golden Valley and Grain Station? Because we don't have a restaurant. We're mostly production. I mean, it is very like wine-based. I would say, which is one reason why we've never, until recently, have not had open hours and stuff, it's because we've tried it before and we sat here all day and maybe had one person come try beer. It's like why am I wasting my Saturday for one person to come taste beer, because it's all like, people-oh, is this a winery? Oh, no. Never mind. When, I think though that McMinnville is just a little bit behind Portland. I think that beer culture is starting to get more involved 00:56:00here, but I mean in 2010, I mean, it's hard being removed from all of that, because you want to meet people and become, and I still feel removed from the Portland beer scene. I've made more friends and stuff like that and tried to go to more events, but I mean now traffic is so crappy getting into Portland I have to leave here at least, if I want to go an event on a weekday, at least 2 hours before the event starts. If it starts at 6:00 or it starts at 5:00, that takes time out of my workday. There definitely is, I think, a bit of a removal between here and Portland. I don't know if that even answers your question.

TEM: Yeah. Well, no. I think I'm just curious. I did an interview with the guy who 00:57:00started Apple Outlaw, and he was feeling like the southern Oregon wine industry was actually bringing in more tourism for the cider side. I'm curious-for him he's seeing the benefit of being a cider maker in a wine industry. I was curious what the experience has been like up here.

LA: I mean I think that definitely as we're getting more tourism, McMinnville is having this big push on tourism and stuff like that. I think as that is happening it is beneficial for us. I think people are seeing beer as more like, oh, this is something I can go do a tasting flight or whatever. I don't have to just go sit down and have a beer some place. But, I don't think, in some ways, I think if you're a wine drinker, I think probably you have a better benefit if you're cider-y than 00:58:00brewery just because a lot of the people, it's a, I guess, less of a transition between wine and cider than it is between wine and beer. So, cider's like the middle man. It's like wine, cider, beer. We do get people that are like, man, beer, yes, after drinking wine all day. All I want is a nice cold beer. We do have that, too. A lot of the, actually, wineries buy beer from us. We see that, too. Because as they say it takes a lot of beer to make good wine.

TEM: What about, shifting a little bit to community and where you find support. Do you feel like there is, where do you find your 00:59:00community? Where do you find your community of support in the industry?

LA: I would say from the other women brewers that I've met a lot. I mean, I've met some, you know, male brewers as well that I'm friends with, but not as close as I am with some of my friends that work in the Portland community. I've gotten pretty close to Natalie Baldwin, who's a brewer at Burnside, and Whitney Burnside, Sonia Marie at Leikam, and then Tonya Cornett who's at 10 Barrel. Just kind of that community of women that I feel comfortable, and I've met other women brewers, too, that live in other parts of the country that I wish they lived 01:00:00closer. There's certain people, too, that I see out and about that work at other breweries and it's always cool to see them and say hi and all that sort of stuff.

TEM: Do you think that, I mean Pink Boots is definitely a very deliberate organization.

LA: Yes.

TEM: There isn't necessarily a companion male organization, so do you feel like part of that you come together more intentionally because Pink Boots exists?

LA: Probably. I mean, I think, I don't think I would have, I don't know if, I probably at some point would have met these people, but I don't know if I would have gotten as close to them as I have if it weren't for Pink Boots. I would say the only exception to that is Tonya, because I met her at a completely different event, but definitely Natalie and Sonia Marie and 01:01:00Whitney, I mean, those ladies, I definitely like probably wouldn't have gotten as close to them if it weren't for Pink Boots.

TEM: It seems like they do stuff. They organize club brews or they have brew days so that there are things to do together.

LA: There are things to do, yeah. Our Portland chapter's kind of crappy with stuff, which is funny, because it was essentially started in Portland.

TEM: I'd say irony.

LA: Yeah.

TEM: What do you feel like the benefits to the whole industry of having an organization like Pink Boots is?

LA: I think it's getting, I think it is beneficial to get more women into the industry, and I think it's helping with 01:02:00that. It's, I think, getting the word out, too, that there are women brewers and we are like competent, able, people, and getting the, I don't know, just having, I think it helps when you are in a male dominated field to have, you know you have support from people. I think just having that helps a lot. It's actually funny. I'm actually officially not a member right now of Pink Boots.

TEM: It's on the tape.

LA: I know. It is. Because I haven't paid my dues [laughs].

TEM: [Laughs] Neverminded all the questions I just asked.

LA: But I have been a member for a really long time. They just changed it so that there's a yearly due. So, I'm trying to decide, I 01:03:00appreciate all that Pink Boots has done for me when I started as a brewer, but I don't know how beneficial it will be for me in the future, in a sense, as I've met all of these women and I feel more comfortable about reaching out to women if I need to. Because Natalie and I have talked about this before, that it'd be nice to have, sometimes you go to Pink Boots meetings and it's a lot of media people. It's like, I don't really, I mean, I like meeting other women who are passionate about beer, but at the same time, it's like I want to meet other women brewers or other women in QA/QC and stuff like that. I'm struggling right now.

TEM: Which I guess makes sense, as any organization grows and 01:04:00expands, how does the, the big tent.

LA: I completely understand why they're starting to charge for dues and stuff like that. It's just one of those things I probably will eventually actually be a paying member. Just not right now.

TEM: Well, maybe it's served its function, too. It connected you.

LA: That's one of the things I've thought about. I don't think that, and I don't know if this is true. This is probably me just being like thinking too much about stuff, which I have a tendency to do. I've applied for several scholarships from Pink Boots and haven't ever gotten one and I think part of the reason is they look at me and it's like well, you already have a brewing position. You essentially work for your dad. You work for a family brewery. You're not going to like probably ever go on from that. So, what's, how does this benefit the industry for you as a woman brewer if you're going to be at the same 01:05:00brewery? I don't know if that's just me overthinking things, but I'm sure there were much more qualified people to get the scholarships than me, too. It is what it is. But I do, I mean, and I do like the events. I like the meetups and stuff like that. That's what I like going to, not necessarily the information meetings. I like going and drinking beer with other women who like drinking beer.

TEM: It's like if you could go to a staff meeting or happy hour.

LA: Yep. Exactly.

TEM: Well, I think it would be fun, we haven't talked, sort of intentionally, about this company itself, since there's somebody else here who might be part of that story. I've heard a rumor. But I guess I'm just, before we step back in time, if we can step 01:06:00forward in time. So, what do you, I don't know what do you think about the future? How do you see yourself growing in your profession, influencing beer in Oregon?

LA: Well, I mean, I just think that we kind of have a point at Heater Allen of making a very high-quality product and a very consistent product, and I think I just want to continue on that path and take more on a role here of, I would say, more of like a head brewer role as my dad transitions into kind of slight-ish retirement. He's smiling at me.

TEM: You could be her assistant brewer. You can transition.

LA: Because I would say that I've more been like 01:07:00brewer, seller person essentially, so kind of transitioning more into that world. I'm trying to really start to recently in the last, actually, the last week or so, I've kind of been trying to take more data on the beers and stuff like that to have that sort of stuff and looking towards that. I think staying consistent and, I mean, there's a lot of breweries that are coming out that are like, oh, well, we're going to do loggers and that never ends up happening because they realize how long to make a quality logger takes. So, they stop. I think that just staying consistent with our quality and the consistency that we have and maybe helping develop more of a spot, though, for craft loggers.

TEM: Within the 01:08:00 industry.

LA: Yeah. Within the industry. I think that people's pallets are kind of going that way, too. I think it's, as I talk about beer snob people, I feel like it starts-you start with IPAs and then you move into the Belgian and sour category and then you slowly move out of that into loggers. Because I know people that essentially like just flat out tell me I don't like logger beers and I think part of that, though, is that they haven't had a well-made, a good logger, that sort of thing. I mean, I, for the lost time I do not like doppelbocks. There's a sweetness to them. I just do not like them. I like our doppelbock, though, because it doesn't have the weird sweetness that all these other doppelbocks have.

TEM: Well I imagine, too, if what you're drinking a lot of and have access to are really, really hoppy IPAs and then it can feel, that's a hard 01:09:00 transition.

LA: Yeah. I'm just trying to slowly, and slowly make improvements. It's hard when you are and have been working at one place to make improvements I think to what you're doing. Right now I'm trying to take a look at what we're doing and seeing how we can improve stuff and doing kind of the stuff that we haven't done before, like writing out procedures and stuff like that. All that fun stuff.

TEM: It's the 10th anniversary, not reorganization, but [LA talks at the same time].

LA: Yeah, exactly [laughs].

TEM: Well, do you have time to tell the story of the company? Do you want to be on?

RICK ALLEN: Sure.

TEM: In the spotlight?

RA: Sure.

TEM: We can have you right next to each other. I can make it a wider.

RA: I'll come.

TEM: A wider...

LA: He's kind of sick right now, so he's.

TEM: This is, we can continue to talk about what the weather has 01:10:00done. Okay, let me see that you're actually in the frame. Okay. It's stable. So, for the good of the historic record can you say your name and your date of birth? We don't need to have today's date or where we are.

RA: I'm Richard Allen. I was born February 6, 1953.

TEM: We've heard some of your work history as told through your daughter. So, you started Heater Allen in 2007. Can you talk about how did you get here? Why did you start a brewery in 01:11:00 2007?

RA: Well, I had gotten out of the financial services industry in, well, the end of 2004. My wife and I ended up working for different wineries. I was working as an accountant for a winery and she was working as a tasting room person up in Santa Rosa. We worked there long enough for me to figure out the winery that I was working for was basically bankrupt. So, basically I said, okay you guys are bankrupt and I'm leaving.

TEM: As the accountant that's something you would notice.

RA: Yeah. Well, they were 3 years behind on their financials. I got them caught up and then it was kind of like, okay. You can't afford to pay me. So, I mean at that point I was really, really interested in doing something in the wine industry. We came up to Oregon to live in our beach house so we could de-tax it. While I was sitting over there and kind of looking at the market and what was going on with the housing 01:12:00situation, it was pretty clear there was going to be a pretty bad recession. I was thinking, I'm really not sure I want to get into the wine business and be fighting with the other 400 wineries in Oregon trying to sell the same thing, pinot noir to everybody. Plus, you know, hiring a wine maker and the fact that it takes about 3 years to come up with a product from the start to finish, I just thought this is too long and it's too expensive and all that. I just thought maybe I should get into making beer. I have always loved a really good pilsner. That was always my holy grail whenever I was home brewing, was making a really good pilsner, and so basically I sat over at the beach and I was brewing pilsners over and over again. I brewed 14 in a row while I was trying to, testing different 01:13:00yeasts, just doing all other stuff with the idea I'll open up a small pilot project and see if people will accept logger beers, because at the time no one made logger beers. The craft brewing business was much more of kind of really focused on English styles, the pale ales, IPAs, porters, stout, that was the world of craft brewing.

So, I was looking for a place to do this and didn't want to do it on the coast, because my thought was I wanted to be close to Portland so that I could deliver into Portland because I knew that was a really important market for me if I was going to do this. I was looking at either Salem or Corvallis or McMinnville. McMinnville was probably my first choice of the 3, but I found property here, or a place to rent here 01:14:00first so that's where I started. As it turns out it was a great choice, because McMinnville has probably the best water of the three. McMinnville is one of two towns in Oregon that actually owns its watershed. So they have a lot of water and they have really, really soft water, which if you're making a pilsner style beer that's really important. So, McMinnville is a great place to be.

TEM: So, you moved here then from the coast in 2007 with the intent of starting this where we are?

RA: Yes. Well, it was, we have 2 bays in this building, and it was in the other bay where the brewery started. The brewery is still in that space where we started, it's just a lot bigger than it was before. To start with I was brewing 20 gallon batches. It was really just get out there, have people try it, see if they liked it, figure out if it was something worth 01:15:00pursuing, and it was. People loved it. People couldn't get enough of it. I couldn't make nearly enough of it.

TEM: What was that introduction phase like? What was your strategy for, because you're not necessarily on the, you're in the middle of wine country, you're not maybe on the ale trail, beer tourism. People aren't going to come to your facility. So, how did you take stuff to them?

RA: Well, I started out really thinking I was going to market to wineries, knowing that wine makers, even if a lot of people in general in McMinnville don't appreciate brewers, wine makers do because they like to drink beer.

LA: Well, after your processing grapes all day the last thing you want to have is a glass of wine. You want to have a beer. Like, the refreshing. And pilsner's perfect, 01:16:00too, because it's a refreshing beer. It's just like nice and easy to drink, nice and cold.

RA: Nick's Italian Café here in town, you know, kind of the old venerable restaurant basically put me on tap and that helped a lot. They only have one tap at the time. Now they have two. But they only had one tap and Nick always liked to have Sapporo on tap. Eric and Carmen finally talked him into taking that off and putting on my beer. So, that helped a lot. Then I was doing bottling. I was bottling them all by hand and I started talking to the guys at Belmont Station, and so they wanted to get my beer up there, and so, or at least taste it. So, I brought a bunch of beers up. They really liked it. So, they wanted to stock it. They were my only account in Portland for a while and then I did a 01:17:00tasting and people from a bunch of other grocery store chains came to the tasting, tasted the beer, and then they all wanted it. At that point, I can't make that much beer. I mean, I could barely take care of Nick's and Belmont Station. So, at that point I needed to get a bigger system.

TEM: What did you feel like that transition-did it feel like explosive growth? Or did it feel like you were able to pace yourself slightly to keep up with demand or did it feel kind of urgent?

RA: I think for the first 5 or 6 years we could sell everything we could make and it was almost like, well, just how much beer can you make because as much as you can make is as much as you can sell and then some. It's only now that we have 60 zillion breweries in Oregon and all that kind of things that things have slowed down a little 01:18:00bit and we can make a lot of beer that things have slowed down a little bit. Up until, that first period of time, it was just crazy. People were calling and I was just saying no. I don't have any beer for you. I got a call from a seller down in California. They wanted to put our beer on the list. I told them no. They called back...

TEM: I was going to ask you.

RA: They called back and I did say yes later on.

LA: A couple years later, yeah.

RA: But to begin with I was like no. I don't have any beer for you.

TEM: That has to be sort of a, I don't know, an awesome moment. You're like...

RA: It was kind of fun.

TEM: So, how did you find support in the beer community? What had been your thoughts or reflections now as you head towards almost 10 years?

RA: Well, I felt I got a lot of support, I mean, the community was a lot smaller back 10 years 01:19:00ago, but Mark Vickery who's a brewer at Golden Valley at the time was very supportive. I could talk to him and I'd go over and brew with him so I could learn how to brew on a bigger system. Ben Love over at Pelican used to, when I was making beer at the coast, used to put up with me bringing over my home brew so he could try it and let me know what he thought of it. Even Darren was very helpful as well. Then Christian Ettinger who was just starting out Hopworks at the time was really, really helpful and allowed me to come over and spend time brewing with those guys. Then actually about, I think about 2009 or 2010, maybe it was in 2011, but in that period of time I took a class. It was just a one year deal through PCC where a couple brewers gave a class 01:20:00on the brewing business, and I took that. I met Van Having, who was hugely helpful to me in starting this up.

TEM: Well, and you came in with a financial background, which certainly a lot of people who were starting during those explosive periods, mid 90s/mid 2000s, maybe didn't have that pre-career.

RA: Yeah.

TEM: In the financial world. I imagine that probably was a benefit.

RA: I think it was a huge benefit, because I had a business plan. I have a forecast out like 3 years of where I want us to be and what I want us to be doing. I can look at the numbers and figure out what are we doing and how do we look and stuff like that. So, I think that that's been an enormous help. I always, it's a saying in the wine 01:21:00industry but I think it's true in brewing, too, is that half of the business is selling the product. If you don't understand that side of the business and have a financial plan around it, a business plan of how to do that, you can make great beer and it's just going to sit around. You're never going to really get it sold, and all that stuff.

TEM: Which is the point.

RA: Which is the point.

TEM: When you established this business, did you think of it as a family business? Did you think that you would bring your daughter in not that much longer?

RA: No.

TEM: No.

RA: No. I thought she was going to be a superstar wine maker. I really did.

TEM: In New Zealand.

RA: She didn't, she's been underplaying it. I had, see I was really a wine drinker. I was a home brewer, too, but I was a real wine geek and so I'd have her barrel tasting when she was 19 years old. We'd go out to various wineries and go through the barrels and stuff like 01:22:00that. There's still guys that want her to come and taste through the barrels with them so that she can basically give them her thoughts on it. She underplays, she has a fantastic palette, much better than mine. Of course, mine has gotten worse.

LA: That's what happens when you get older.

RA: Yeah, I know.

TEM: It's the cold.

RA: Well, it's that too, yeah.

TEM: Was there any question as she was transitioning over to the beer side about whether, what it would be like to have a family business? A family brewery?

RA: I think there as a little bit of trepidation about how we would work together and stuff like that. Would we end up just screaming at each other all the time?

LA: I would say it took us about, like a year or so to get used to...

RA: We haven't been screaming at each other very much at all lately.

LA: No we haven't.

RA: You haven't thrown 01:23:00anything lately.

LA: No. I haven't. I have a tendency to bottle up all of my emotions and then have one big explosive event, so I think I've been in a lot better place recently.

TEM: Well, it is a very different dynamic to go from being father-daughter to...

LA: Sometimes I think we do, at family events we'll end up just talking about business stuff instead of like... it probably annoys Mom somewhat or something.

RA: Oh yeah.

LA: At dinner and talking about like, so, what do you think if we do this at the brewery, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

RA: Yeah, sometimes. But it's been, I think it's been great. I think once she started and once she showed a real aptitude for it, from that point on it was like, okay, this is great, because you know, the way I look at it is this is my retirement. I can come in here, and if nothing else I can do the accounting 01:24:00and all that type of stuff until I'm in my 70s, easily. But having someone who is as anal-retentive as I am about brewing and is really going to focus on making sure we make the absolute best beer we possibly can I think is really important. She's all over that. So, it worked out really well.

TEM: What about your son? Is he interested in beer and brewing and your wife? Is she interested in beer and brewing? I guess it's hard to not be interested.

RA: My son is interested in beer. He is a high school teacher, and that's exactly what he should be doing, because he's a very gifted writer and he's also very gifted at teaching writing and so he's better off just doing that and not focusing...

LA: And he'd rather drink like triple 01:25:00 IPAs.

RA: And he's, I think, probably a little bit too impatient with the process and be like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's get to the important stuff. It's kind of like, you don't understand. This is all important. You have to do it exactly this way and he would probably have a difficult time with that. It's, I mean he's occasionally talked about getting into the family business, but then it's like, no. No. Just keep doing what you're doing. You're doing fine. Then Jan, my wife will probably end up working in the business at some point.

LA: Once she retires.

RA: Right now she's working as a school counselor and I think she loves working in tasting rooms. She loved the year that she worked down in California, because compared to working with all these screaming kids and stuff where they're not happy to be 01:26:00there, she says it's really fun to work with people that really want to be there and to work with adults, too, instead of a bunch of little 8-year-olds and 9-year-olds and stuff like that. I think when she retires, she come over and run the tap room for us.

TEM: She is the Heather in Heater Allen?

RA: Yes.

TEM: So, she's already sort of here.

RA: Yes. Someone on Facebook was posting that Lisa was going to be in the tap room by herself and so it was really the Allen brewery, and I said, no. You don't understand. She's the real Heater Allen. I'm an Allen. She's a Heater Allen.

TEM: So, what are, I don't know, what are some concluding thoughts? Things that get you both here every day about the work you do or the impact you have or the kind of place that we live 01:27:00that is such a beer mecca? Reflect on your role, I guess, in all of this.

LA: Well, I just think for one, I mean and this is something about being a small business and only having 3 employees or whatever. Stuff has to get done. I mean, and it's one of those things, too, I may not, and I don't have to that often, but sometimes if something needs to be done on a Sunday, it's like I'm coming in on a Sunday because that's what needs to be done. He's probably here at least, short, every day.

RA: Every day.

LA: Every day, like if you have to like turn down a fermenter or something like that, just something really quick, but just to check on everything and make sure everything's going, and I mean you have to kind of care about what you're 01:28:00doing and what you're putting out to the public.

RA: I think from my standpoint, it's, my name's on the label, and so I want to make sure that what I'm putting out there is a really, really, really top notch product and if that requires a little bit more time, like coming in on a Saturday or Sunday or something like that, I'm going to do it. The other thing is that this business is so interesting and exciting, because there's so much stuff going on and everything's in a state of flux and a lot of what we're dealing with are relatively small companies, which I think is really cool. It's not like we have a couple, well, you've got Budweiser and Miller and those guys, but really when you talk about craft beer in Oregon. It's a lot of smaller companies that are all kind out there trying to find their way in the world. There's always stuff to learn about. There's always beer to 01:29:00make and always small changes that need to made, little course corrections that need to be made in terms of what you're doing and how you're doing it and stuff like that. To try to understand all that is really, really interesting and engaging.

LA: I will say, too, we've noticed recently, I mean this isn't something that gets us here every day. This is just like a kind of observation, but it's as my dad was saying about the market-I mean, it shifts a lot. It changes a lot. It's really.. it's not, the beer market's not really super predictable. Recently we've always sold a lot of bottles, and recently bottle sales haven't been as great. But it's not just us. Everyone is seeing that. So, it's just one of those things. Then you're, okay, well we're going to keg more beer, then, and kind of adjusting to what you need to do.

RA: If people aren't buying bottles 01:30:00and taking them home and drinking what are they doing? Are they going to tap rooms? Do we need to reach out to tap rooms more and sell more beer at tap rooms and that type of thing? But it's those types of things. There's always something going on. There's always something that's interesting. My wine maker friends say you've got harvest every week. That's cool. I mean, they're like, that's awesome. Because harvest is fun. Harvest is interesting.

LA: It's tiring.

RA: Well, yeah, but we have it every week. What's not to like about that.

TEM: Do you guys go to hop harvest?

LA: Well, I went and did like a hop school thing up in Yakima, which was fun and interesting and kind of learning about more of the hop side of it. It was kind of cool. I'm learning what certain breweries do.

RA: I've gone and watched hop harvests. It's pretty 01:31:00 amazing.

TEM: Are there any smaller hop farms up here? I mean, obviously there's the big...

LA: Well, we have Crosby.

RA: Well, that's over in...

LA: I know, but it's relatively close.

RA: Actually, most of them are on the other side of...

LA: Of the Willamette.

RA: ... of the Willamette. So, you've got the Mission Bottom down near Salem and then you've got over towards Woodburn and Woodburn and down through Mt. Angel and Silverton and all that area seems to be really, but there used to be a lot of hop harms around McMinnville.

LA: It's mostly grapes and hazelnuts. I was about to say filberts.

RA: And grass seed.

LA: And grass seed.

TEM: You should call them filberts.

LA: I know that's a true Oregonian. I should say filberts. I was talking to someone about that recently.

TEM: That's how you know that you know a filbert and a hazelnut are the same thing. So you're not seeing those kind of 01:32:00smaller, couple acre hop farms popping up yet?

RA: No. I haven't seen that.

TEM: It feels like it's happening more on my end of the valley, these smaller, as you get into Eugene.

RA: I think one of the problems in the Yamhill Valley is that there are, the water rights are pretty tight. I mean, it's like Carleton doesn't have enough water. Lafayette doesn't have enough water. None of these cities have any water. The surrounding areas don't have that much water, either, which is why they grow, you either grow wheat or you grow grass seed, because you basically don't need water to grow those things. So, a lot of its dry farm. I think it's a little bit different when you get over in the Willamette River drainage. You probably have a little bit easier to get water rights and pump water 01:33:00up and water things.

TEM: It's funny to think of this as a dry spot as we sit in the middle of our rain.

RA: I know. As it's pouring down rain.

LA: I was going to say no one's going to need to water at all this year or this coming season. It feels that way anyway.

TEM: Well, thank you both for being recorded. I will pause in case you have concluding statements that you would like to make, things that you thought I might ask and I didn't.

RA: Well, and this is like verbal history of the brewing industry right? Going back, you know, I mean it's pretty amazing. I mean, I started home brewing about the same time that Bridgeport came into existence and there was Bridgeport and Full Sail, and Widmer, and Deschutes and McMenamins. That was about it. It's amazing how much things have changed 01:34:00since back in those days.

TEM: Were you part of the Oregon Brew Crew? Were you close enough that?

RA: No. I was living in Tualatin. I mainly just made beers so that I could drink it. I was brewing, and I was never into medals or competitions or anything like that, because to me I really didn't care if it won a medal. I just wanted something that was going to taste good to me. As long as it tasted good to me then I was perfectly happy with it and didn't feel like I needed someone else to pat me on the back and say good job or something like that.

TEM: Did you find it hard to get supplies then?

RA: Well, let's just say that the supply you could get were really limited. You could get, when I first started out and you were just doing extracts, you could get like light syrup or you could get amber syrup and that was basically 01:35:00it. You could get this crystal malt or this crystal malt and that was about it. Now, there's just so many things out there. The hops were, you could get a cluster and I mean, they were really limited what you could get in the way of hops. I mean, it was all just a fraction of what you see out there now in terms of things. I mean, the [unclear] were still really busy. It's not busy like it is now.

TEM: Well, and having, even having the internet now. The things that you can.

LA: Yeah, because you can order online and stuff like that.

RA: That new-fangled internet.

TEM: That new-fangled internet.

LA: It's weird to think. I mean, as we were talking earlier, this doesn't have really to do with beer that much, but thinking about how it is different, like growing up without a cell phone. It has to be just like different 01:36:00now. All of that sort of stuff, like I didn't have a cell phone and they would let me drive all over the place in California and stuff. Didn't worry too much about it. It's just like weird to think about.

TEM: Yeah, well, and I think, or thinking about those early breweries and how they got equipment and put stuff together that it required so much more, you can't sit and look at your computer.

RA: Have you talked to the guys at JB Northwest?

TEM: Not yet. No.

RA: Well, you should. Because you hear some of the stories that they tell about when they were first making equipment for Deschutes and stuff like that.

LA: Well, and Mark Vickery, if you haven't talked to him he would be a good person to talk to, too, because he started at Deschutes and then.

RA: Back in the... yeah, he worked with John when John was at Deschutes back in the '80s, I guess. So, you know, he's been in business for a long time. But, JB 01:37:00Northwest has got some great stories about some of the stuff that they did where they had no clue what they were doing.

LA: It was like, can you do this for us? Uh, sure.

RA: Sure.

LA: We'll figure it out.

RA: Yeah.

TEM: That's what I think is so awesome. I feel like there is still that spirit, you know, well, let's just try this and see what happens if we do this.

RA: When we put in our system from JB Northwest, we have a mash mixer, which most breweries don't have a mash mixer. It's more of a logger thing, but there's this big paddle n there that's supposed to be, it stirs this mash around and keeps it moving. Because you're heating the outside and you want everything to get heated uniformly throughout, and so it's just turning this over constantly. You look at the paddles and they got this big paddle and this little 01:38:00fin on the end of the paddles. When they first made them they made them all just one way. What they found was it didn't do anything except make the whole thing go around in a circle. It didn't really turn it over and you had to have those little fins on the end to make it turn over. So, the first one they built for Deschutes didn't have those fins and didn't work. So, then they had to go sneak a look at what somebody in Germany was doing and come back and fix it so that it would actually work.

TEM: And I can imagine, too, that having the per capita number of breweries and having a company that can talk to those brewers who are smaller and maybe, well, it's funny to call Deschutes smaller, but they could give feedback and could try things out, too. Yeah. That's what makes it 01:39:00 awesome.

RA: Yeah.

LA: Yeah.

RA: You already talked to God, so you're good there.

TEM: [Laughs].

RA: John Harris.

TEM: Done.

RA: [Laughs].

LA: Oh, man. That's really funny that he's just like, hold on a sec. Got a...

TEM: That's what happens when you talk to people who are involved.

RA: Yeah.

LA: Yeah. I think that's it.

RA: Yep. Good.

TEM: Alright. Thank you.