Joy Hoerner Rich Oral History Interview, May 20, 2015

TIAH EDMUNSON-MORTON: Okay, so go ahead and say your name, when you were born, and where we are.

JOY HOERNER RICH: Okay, my name is Joy Hoerner Rich and I was born in Ithaca, New York, because at that point in time my dad was on the staff of Cornell University. My brother and sister were born, both of them were born in Portland. So, I thought I was pretty special and I don't know exactly what you want to know about Dad but at that stage of our lives we were children and they were adults and we didn't really know too much about their background and that kind of thing. I was different, because I was born in Ithaca and my brother and sister were both born in Portland, Oregon.

TEM: How long did you live in Ithaca?

JHR: Only about 2-3 years when I was just a child, so I don't remember it really at all, except that I always was saying when I was growing up, now how do you 00:01:00spell Ithaca [laughs]? So, that made me remember that I was the one that was left on the other side of continent when my bother brother and sister were born in Portland, Oregon.

TEM: So was your brother younger than you?

JHR: No, my brother was 18 months older and my sister was 3 years younger.

TEM: So they were over at Cornell for not very long at all.

JHR: No, no. so he was on the staff there just for that length of time. That made me, I was always saying, somebody was always asking me as I was a child, where is Ithaca [laughs]? So, I always remembered the name of it.

TEM: Did you ever go back?

JHR: No, I really haven't gone back to the school or anything, because of course when my kids were born they were all born in Oregon so there was not any particular need to go back. I had been in other places in New York, but never went to Ithaca.

TEM: When you moved back your parents moved to Portland?

JHR: Yes to begin with. Then Dad was on the staff at Oregon State then later.

TEM: What were your parents doing in Portland?

JHR: Actually Mother grew up in that area and as I say Dad was around and about, hither and yon, and actually he was born in... oh, gosh, I can't remember now, but anyway he was not born in Oregon. That made that a pretty special place because that was where, as I say, everybody would say, where is Ithaca? I say, I don't really remember but it was back in New York.

TEM: When did you guys move to Corvallis? How old were you?

JHR: In, gosh, I can't even remember the dates. I didn't even think about looking this up.

TEM: Oh, that's okay.

KAREN: I think 1930. You had started elementary school in Portland.

JHR: That's right. that's right, and so that's about in the early '30s.

TEM: So, you were school age, elementary school age when you moved to Corvallis.

JHR: Uh-huh.

TEM: Does that sound?

JHR: Uh-huh.

TEM: What was Corvallis like then, what do you remember?

JHR: Pretty small college town. A very small college town, and that was their main occupation for the people that lived here was because although it was in the area of agriculture around the whole area in Portland and Oregon, but Corvallis was mainly thought of as a college town. More than the U of O, because even at that point Corvallis was more of a little agricultural community where it was more the other way in Eugene. That was always a college town.

TEM: When you were growing up were your friends' parents working at the college?

JHR: A lot of them, but not necessarily. It was a pretty easy town because 00:04:00although the college was there the people that lived in town, as people that were actually running the businesses around town and so forth, were also very involved with the college and cooperative, I think as I recall growing up.

TEM: When you moved to... did you always live in the same house in Corvallis?

JHR: No. We lived in a rental house down on 12th street, which was down closer to the college. Then later on the folks knew somebody that had this house up on Arnold Way, which was right up near the college. They were moving, had been transferred, and so the folks bought the house up there. That's really where I grew up later was up at Arnold Way and that was very close to college because Dad could walk to work and Mother enjoyed being up there too.

I had a brother and a sister. I have a sister younger and a brother older, so we all liked it up there. We could go up and my brother liked to play tennis and we could go up and use the tennis courts at the college and that kind of thing.

TEM:As you got older, your dad was obviously beyond his work he was really involved in the college just on the co-op board and intercollegiate athletics. What was it like for you growing up? Did you spend a lot of time even before you were at the college on campus?

JHR: Some but not too much. Mother had the idea, and we needed to do things that were local until we got to college because then it would be something new, which was a really good idea now that I think about it because a lot of my friends 00:06:00were involved in going to a lot of the things that were there at the college and we were just sort of very happy to do the things that were in the local high school and/or the town itself, which they felt was pretty important and that was part of our existence instead of all college things.

TEM: So, what are some of the things that you remember really enjoying doing?

JHR: I was very active, so I enjoyed bike riding and all that kind of thing. We took swim lessons at the college, because at that time they did not have a city pool. We did a lot of things at the college, like swim lessons and a lot of things that we did with different programs and that kind of thing. We were awful very involved in the college and of course Dad was too because he was an excellent speaker and was often asked to give talks at whatever conventions were 00:07:00there and that kind of thing. I think the folks really tried not to make us just be at the college, so we were really members of the community as well.

TEM: Did you ever consider not going to college?

JHR: No, it never occurred to me that I wouldn't [laughs]. With Dad and Mother both... Dad was the sitting vice president when he was at Oregon State and my mother had not gone to a college but to a normal school, so she was a teacher. She taught mostly 4th grade and that age children and then when I was in college I was interested in the young ones, so part of my degree was working with very young children.

TEM: You majored in home economics, right?

JHR: Yes.

TEM: What was your course of study like? What were some of the things that you took?

JHR: Well, different things. We had nutrition. We had things with sewing and 00:08:00that kind of thing and I was especially interested and also working with young children, very young children. That was good. They always had a group of children that were there at the college that we were well-acquainted with. So, if we were teaching classes or learning about how to teach classes with young children they were there.

TEM: Was that the nursery school, is that right?

JHR: Yes. They had a nursery school. It was actually right there around... well, at first it was not around the corner. They used different places in churches and stuff that had room. Then they built the one there right on campus, right off the campus road there. It was very well-recognized as one of the best. I think Cornell University was one of the good ones and Oregon State was too, one of the top ones in the country for that kind of learning. I was fairly lucky, I think. I loved working with young children, did a lot of babysitting and that 00:09:00kind of thing growing up so I was really thrilled that I could go there and it was right downtown.

TEM: The home management houses.

JHR: Yes.

TEM: Had they started when you were there?

JHR: Yes. That was very early. They all had babies. So we had to take care of babies and learn how to do all the things we should do if we were going to be a parent as well as teach and of course I was in education so that was part of it was you learned how to teach about taking care of children and that kind of thing. It was really great, and their development for that matter starting from the very beginning and what could happen, which was interesting because one of my children, my son Jeff, had a lot of problems as he was growing up and all that came in very handy-dandy. It really did.

TEM: Did you live in one of the home management houses for six weeks, is that?

JHR: Yeah, it was a term.

TEM: Oh, right.

JHR: So, it was a term. We all had to do that to graduate. No one graduated without having a turn at the houses. There were three of them I think when I was there that were in different parts of Corvallis.

TEM: Which one did you live at?

JHR: At the one that was closest to the college. What was the name of it? Good grief.

TEM: The only one I can remember is Witham right now, but I can't remember what the other two were called.

JHR: Witham was there, and the one that was around the corner from the college. I'll think of them.

TEM: Yeah [laughs].

JHR: I should've written all this down! Gosh.

TEM: It's alright. I came in with the pretense of just talking about your dad.

JHR: Alright. Well, that's right.

TEM: Well, I want to talk more about you first.

JHR: Yeah [laughs].

TEM: What was it like to be on campus during the war?

JHR: It was distressful in a way because so many of our friends were gone and 00:11:00the kind of information you got back was so different than it is now, so you didn't really know someone had been... you hear they were missing in action but it was a long time sometimes before you really knew what that meant and what was involved with that. It was very stressful really, because a lot of guys all of a sudden, they were gone and we women were back worrying about it, which is just pretty much what happened during World War I, too, same kind of a thing. A lot more communication, fortunately, but in some ways worse. Better not to know.

TEM: Did you feel like there were lots of opportunities for you to get involved in the war effort?

JHR: Oh yes.

TEM: I hear a lot about that.

JHR: Yes there were, and particularly since Camp Adair was right there so we did. We did a lot of volunteer work out there as was needed and they would call on us to come and do different things and particularly people who were left with young children to take care of when their husbands were... and they hadn't decided whether to go back home or whether to still stay in Corvallis or whatever. So we did a lot of work with young children, which was sort of good as well as having our own nursing school right there on campus.

TEM: Was it students who had children or faculty or staff, or...?

JHR: Faculty, well, both... thank you, my dear, very thoughtful of you [speaking to someone else in the room].

TEM: You worked more with children. Did you do any of the field labor? Did you 00:13:00go out into the farms?

JHR: Oh yeah. They had a place across the river where they had a college farm and so we tried to do a lot of things with the children that would be learning experiences, so we did. We were able to, with gas coupons we didn't do probably as much as we did afterwards but we did with the allotments that we had. We tried to get them with lots of experiences. of course a lot of them were already college, because the staff would sign up their kids practically when they were born because there were just so many spaces and they tried not to over-space it. At first, we just used rooms in the home ec building but later they built the nursery school that's around the corner from the other colleges buildings. That was wonderful because it was all by itself and you could do different things with them that you couldn't do when they were in the churches and things like that.

TEM: So you met your husband there.

JHR: Yeah.

TEM: Is that right?

JHR: Uh-huh.

TEM: Had he graduated when he went into the war or was he in the midst of his studies.

JHR: No, because he came back and finished as many of them did. He was drafted like everybody. They just, it was really strange to have started in the early '40s and then to see what happened. We were just practically all women for a while there.

TEM: I can imagine.

JHR: It was interesting and strange because my folk's house was up near the college and our house was on the street that would had the SAE house, some of the fraternities were up in that area as well as a few of the sororities. They're still there as a matter of fact.

We got acquainted with a lot of the boys that were leaving and all of a sudden 00:15:00they'd be gone. it was really stressful for all of the women that were left too. Because your friends that you had in class, they were mostly all women because it was such a big war and a place where they took a lot of people. You always worried about where they were and what was happening, even though you were not that familiar with them. Somebody, their brothers, would say so-and-so we haven't heard from them in a long time. it was always a stressful time, but amazingly enough it finally got over. But that was a hard time for everybody, the women too that were left, because you never knew when somebody would say, well, so-and-so was gone. But it was also a learning experience to have to deal with it, which is good too, with your own life later on. All the steps that 00:16:00you're not sure are going to hit you.

TEM: Were you married when?

JHR: No.

TEM: I was going to say your husband, but with your future husband. So, you weren't married yet?

JHR: No. as a matter of fact, I was bouncing around on the rally committee and doing all kinds of things like that. I was not interested in getting married at that point in time.

TEM: You were on the rally squad when they went to the Rose Bowl, right?

JHR: Yeah, oh yeah, but of course none of us got to go. That was a sad thing. Just really sad. We felt terrible because of course we did when no one was traveling. So, we didn't get to go. We certainly knew all the guys and everything. That was really fun. That was a fun thing to be on, because we got to do a lot of bouncing around. As you can see, I'm still bouncing around [laughs].

TEM:[Laughs].

JHR: Somebody said, how old are you? I said, you don't even want to know. But I 00:17:00have a friend who was up the hill, who just recently died actually and she was I think younger than I was about 5 years, but I thought oh dear. Because I'm 93, so that seems pretty young to me. My mother lived to be 106 if you can imagine.

TEM: Wow.

JHR: She lived in Corvallis.

TEM: And she continued, returned back here?

JHR: She lived there until, she got so she couldn't actually do the cooking and that kind of thing but went to a retirement place there in Corvallis. But she knew a lot of people there so that was sort of nice too. She didn't have to be sent to something where she would have had to make a lot of new friends.

TEM: Oh, in the retirement community?

JHR: Yeah, the retirement community, too. So that was good.

TEM: How did your dad get into hops. Was it something that he?

JHR: Well, he was in agriculture. He liked beer [laughs]. That's one of the 00:18:00reasons and he had a lot of friends who were, you know, they'd get together after a ball game or something and would chit-chat at somebody's house and often they'd have dinner or something after something like that. That was it. So, he was really interested in hops because he liked beer and all his friends did too. So, while he was there he also did a lot of different things, as I say, not only with hops but other things with the college too as well. That was his main thing later because there was so many hops growing in Oregon and southern California and northern California. They were very much in demand in Oregon more than about any place else. Of course, they did have at Cornell University I think in Nyack, New York there were hops that were grown in that area too. I think they had specialists there but Dad, and there were quite a few people that went to 00:19:00California and all around to help with different kinds of diseases. But I do remember him mentioning those because they were the most prevalent because we had so much rain. Those were the things that were there if there were lots of rain. I can remember that. He really enjoyed, and he was a wonderful public speaker. Whenever they had a brewing convention, Dad was asked to be the speaker at the brewing convention, which he enjoyed thoroughly. He was fun and funny. So he always did that. There were lots of them coming this way and once and a while we'd go back east because everybody knew that he was a hop specialist and that he was also a funny and good speaker so he was one of the ones that went back to there. But then of course a lot of breweries were on the west coast as well, so they'd have convention and ask him to speak.

I remember he knew Blitz Brewery, he knew Bill Blitz and he mentioned them all 00:20:00by their first name. I've forgotten a lot of them. So, he was really very well used as a speaker.

TEM: Did he start his interest in hops while he was still at Cornell?

JHR: No, not really. Most of the hops were grown on the west coast. When he was at Cornell he was doing graduate work in agriculture of different kinds. It was mostly when he got back here that he specialized in that field particularly. Because they didn't have many people that did that, so he was often asked to go to this field and look and see what this was. Sometimes they didn't even know because there just wasn't that much research on it.

TEM: When he started, was he linked with extension?

JHR: Yes, he was part of the extension faculty at Oregon State. He had 00:21:00originally taught some classes and gradually got into extension. So, he did that traveling around the state with different things. When he became the hops specialist that was great. Then he went to northern California or wherever on the west coast that they ran them. every now and again he would go to a conference or convention back east but mainly stayed here on the west coast.

TEM: At that point do you remember him going to Washington once? Or in your mind there was enough in northern California to draw him that he was mainly in northern California?

JHR: And Oregon. Lot of hops in Oregon, too. In California some too. Because mostly, not in the southern part, but in the northern part closer to the west coast. There were quite a few down where it's cooler. Hops need to grow where it 00:22:00isn't so hot. That's why they were good on the east coast too which was close to the ocean too so it was more moisture and so forth. They certainly grew in Oregon and northern California, there were lots of hops. Lots of picking. I never did pick but a lot of the kids did, high school age and so forth if they would stick with their jobs and not throw stuff at each other [laughs].

TEM: [Laughs] In the hop fields?

JHR: In the hop yards, yep, right. I remember Dad saying, oh, boy there's a group at such-and-such place. Boy are they something. They're having a lot of problems with them keeping to work instead of them playing with each other. I'm sure that was true, too.

TEM: Were those people from Corvallis going to farms that were close to Corvallis or was he just talking generally?

JHR: Generally, too. But a lot of, course a lot of them were close to Corvallis because that's the area. And northern California. Northern California and Oregon 00:23:00were hoppy places [laughs]. Of course there were breweries along too.

TEM: What are some of the things that you remember him bringing home to talk about from working with the hop farmers in Oregon?

JHR: I think that mainly that they wanted help and that they were very interested in whatever he had to tell them. Also once they found out that he was a good speaker and liked to visit with them. He became friends with them as well. So, if there was a problem they felt comfortable calling him at Oregon State and talking with him about it. I think that perhaps that was one of his best assets, because he was so friendly and he was funny and told jokes and so everybody liked him and I think that with other people that might have been more 00:24:00formal that probably didn't get along as well as Dad did. But he was very popular. They did call him a lot and he was always accessible to them through the college, too. That was good. He did quite a bit of traveling, because he'd go down to northern California quite a lot. Of course all around Oregon and Washington where they were grown. Because hops need cooler weather, and that's why it was northern California rather than where it got so hot down there.

TEM: Was he, do you remember him talking about machinery? The changes that obviously happened in the late 1940s and late 1950s with mechanical picking.

JHR: Not too much.

TEM: Pesticides, herbicides, insecticides?

JHR: Not too much, because, of course, he was a lot older. He was aware of it 00:25:00and I think talked to lots of groups but he wasn't doing as much traveling and going to the actual fields anymore as he had done earlier.

TEM: Oh, I see. In the 1930s, for instance, that was when he was?

JHR: And the early '40s before World War II. Because that's when they got more mechanized and thinking about things that would pick them other than people, that kind of thing.

TEM: Because the people weren't here?

JHR: That's right. Because kids would go out and pick hops. I can remember, I wasn't interested in picking hops because they were itchy and awful. They were terrible things. I heard enough about them. I didn't want to pick hops. But a lot of other people did around Corvallis.

TEM: What about... we talked about him working and talking with the hop growers, 00:26:00but what about working with the brewers? What were his relationships like with the brewers?

JHR: Well, he was mostly, like he went to conventions and things like that because brewers and growers were both there. But he was mostly concerned with the growth of hops, not with the brewing and that end of it. But he did know all of them. They'd often ask him about different things about it. But he was not in the manufacturing end of the beer. He was at the other end of growing the hops. That's why he was asked at brewer's conventions to do speeches and things because he was such a funny guy and he was a wonderful speaker, and he was not insulted with his group of guys that'd get pretty funny themselves. so, he was often speaking at brewer's conventions and that kind of thing as well. As I 00:27:00said, he had his own field out at the college. When they got a disease he tried all these different things on them and what have you.

TEM: On his own field?

JHR: Well, it was college property but it was across the river on the other side of the Willamette. So, it was down in that area if you know Corvallis instead of up near the college.

TEM: I think it's actually that's where it still is.

JHR: I bet it is!

TEM: [Laughs] I don't think it's moved.

JHR: Hops are long-growing things. they grow a long, long time. Of course he was interested in the diseases because they didn't want diseased hops in the beer. They didn't want anything that was not pretty clear of whatever, so he was always going around to different hop fields that they had around the state and in northern California mostly just because they want to be sure they weren't going to get some horrible bug from them as well as the actual the taste of them, because that's what made the beer was hops.

TEM: Do you remember any sense of the growers and the brewers working directly together or was there kind of a separation with brokers in the middle or scientists in the middle?

JHR: I don't really remember too much about it because I was really young when dad was doing this. It seemed to me at different conventions that they were all there. They worked together pretty well, because he was always being asked to give a talk because he was so funny. But at any rate, so I think that he was pretty popular at conventions because he told funny jokes and still had a lot of good information for them, so I know that he went quite often to brewer's conventions. Bill Blitz was a friend of his and a lot of the brewers knew him so 00:29:00he was invited to other things as well, which he enjoyed greatly since he enjoyed a good glass of beer. I never liked the stuff. I thought it tasted terrible [laughs].

TEM: [Laughs].

JHR: But a lot of people did. It's the hops that make you not like it. It really is. That was his specialty so he had to like it. I'm not a beer drinker either.

TEM: He went to Thailand.

JHR: Mm-hmm.

TEM: That was in the mid 1950s? Does that sound right?

JHR: I'd have to look at it, about... yeah.

TEM: About '55?

JHR: About '55, yeah.

TEM: I'm assuming there was no hops work? Did he leave the hops behind at that point?

JHR: It was his last trip of doing something like that. Yeah, after that. He'd been training people. And a lot of people knew him. When he first started working he was about the only one that did, although it was an industry in Oregon and northern California, he was the main person. It seemed to me he was out an awful lot, in and out of town and what have you with the hop fields around northern California as well as in Oregon.

TEM: It's a big state.

JHR: Right, right.

TEM: To stay in Corvallis or in Oregon, who are some of the people that you remember him talking about or people coming over to your house?

JHR: Gosh. It was a constant stream. Dad was very, very liked people so he'd 00:31:00invite these people over. I can't even tell you, but I'm sure they were all hoppy people, and they were probably happy hoppy people [laughs], having a glass of beer. But I don't really remember a lot of them. As a matter of fact, at my age children were seen but they were involved in parental, groups of parents and their friends. At least we weren't. we'd say hello and go do our thing and we weren't really around so I didn't really know a lot of them except when Dad mentioned names and things like that. Other than that, we were not around when they were at the house. We were doing our own thing. Which kids did in that day and age. I don't think any of them do it now, but they sure did then.

TEM: He started before prohibition was repealed. Was there any talk about doing research on something that was, you know, only made for one thing, grown for one thing?

JHR: Not that I remember. He did meet with lots of people that came to Corvallis, but they usually were not at the home. They were up at his office or some place on campus or out in the field looking at the hops that were growing there or whatever. Actually the kinds of conversations that you're talking about, we weren't included. Young children then were out of the place instead of standing listening to their parents, like they do now. When somebody came we were out of there. Which is good, we weren't interested anyway. We heard enough about hops with Dad saying what was happening out in the field that we were not interested. That was not an era where most children were allowed in with the adults. We were long gone doing our own thing.

TEM: Why did he make the move to Thailand?

JHR: Because he was offered to go there and work with, what was he working with? 00:33:00Oh gosh.

KAREN: Setting up the agricultural program at the university?

JHR: Oh, Kasetsart University near Bangkok. Oh, yeah, with agriculture and I was trying to think what their main thing was that he was working on. Good grief. I can't remember right now, but there were several things that had happened with bugs and things like that that he was working with while he was there. That's why he was there, actually, was to work with their agricultural department and whatever things that he could. I don't remember him mentioning any spider mites or anything like that. But then again of course we were all grown then and out of the house so we wouldn't have heard the conversations we heard back then. Because there was a big crop field across the river, across the Willamette there. I don't know whether it's still there or not, probably is. Yeah. Because 00:34:00they do last forever. He was always going out there. In fact, he had several places on the college property.

TEM: Where he was growing hops?

JHR: Yeah. But that was the main one because it was already there. So, he did a lot of trying with sprays and that kind of thing. So, it was really interesting. But Dad was very good at knowing all the brewers and he went to more brewer's conventions because he was a good speaker and he also liked beer. So, he was not saying, hey, quit it.

TEM: Did your parents travel a lot? Obviously your dad traveled because he went to fields, but did your parents travel before they went to Thailand?

JHR: No. Not a lot. No. with three little kids they didn't and if dad did on his own for business he did it, but Mother usually didn't go along, she was home 00:35:00with three. So, not really. He, as I say in the early years when hops were being implanted in places that had never been, then's when he did his traveling too, not as he got older. I don't recall that he did. Of course, I was gone too during the war.

TEM: What did your mom think about going to Thailand?

JHR: Oh, she loved it. She liked to travel and she enjoyed it thoroughly and although Dad was the one that picked up languages very easily. He actually picked up some Thai so he could speak to them out in the fields, but Mother that was not her forte at all and so she always turned to Dad. But he learned quite a bit of Thai language, because he was all out there by himself so often and so he 00:36:00did pick a lot of it up. But Mother never did. That was not her thing. If they were with a group of people that were starting to speak the language, he always would tell her what they were saying.

TEM: How long did they live there?

JHR: About 3 years. Yeah. Because my kids were real little then.

TEM: Did she come back or did he come back?

JHR: Yeah.

TEM: Was there a lot of... did they go for 3 years and stay?

JHR: Yeah. I think they stayed there almost three years. Then Dad used to go back afterwards for special things that they wanted him to do but not very often and Mother never did go back again. But that was a really wonderful experience for them and they had time to do traveling in between. That was a real high point of their lives, because most of the people that were on the staff at 00:37:00Oregon State didn't do much traveling unless it was for business purposes at the college. It was not done much. People didn't have that kind of money. So we never did get to go back or anything but they did.

TEM: Did they get the travel bug, I guess is what I'm wondering, after they came back?

JHR: They went some places but not the extent of that trip nor as far. They sort-of stayed home and once in a while Dad would go on a special trip but often it wasn't both of them. he was always going down to different brewer's conventions. He was such a good public speaker that whenever Bill Blitz or somebody else called he would be giving some speech at a convention at some place, but he loved to do that and he was a wonderful public speaker and funny, and so he was often asked to do that. My mother often did not go along. That was 00:38:00not her thing.

TEM: When they returned from Thailand they returned to the same house on Arnold Way?

JHR: Yes. They did. They rented it while they were gone, leased it, and then when they got back they went right back to the homestead on Arnold Way.

TEM: Then did he continue to be involved with the college? Was he retired at that point?

JHR: No, not quite. He did some more work out in the fields with growers and that kind of thing like he'd done before but when he retired he sort of stopped doing that like most other do. There was a lot of years of visiting with... and he had special friends that he saw but not much that would be known as giving them advice.

TEM: What did he do in his retirement?

JHR: They did some traveling and what have you. they enjoyed just tugging along 00:39:00at home. As I say every now and again some group ask him to give a speech but Mom was not interested in going to the brewer's conventions particularly so she never went along but he did some speaking and stuff after they returned. But that was a wonderful trip for them because they did get to see a lot of different things. He'd probably wouldn't have done that kind of traveling. No professor that we knew of ever did much traveling. They didn't earn that kind of money. So, I think that was a wonderful experience for both of them to have that experience and do some traveling. Mother enjoyed it a great deal and so did Dad. But Dad was very gregarious and chatty with everybody. Mother not as much but Dad was, and, as I say, a good public speaker.

TEM: So, they were back in Corvallis. Where were you three children? You're not 00:40:00children anymore. Where were you all living?

JHR: We were all around. My brother was interested in the theater and ended up producing on Broadway in the theater. My sister was not too interested in anything like that but was more around in the area that we were in, was married and had three children, and of course I was in Corvallis and then down here in Roseburg. My brother was the only one that stretched his wings and went back east but my Aunt Berta and Uncle Elmer who were children's book authors lived back there, so when he first went back after the war, World War II, he lived with them for a while and got very well-known in the theater in New York. So he was a producer there. Little old me stayed right home in the Northwest. My 00:41:00sister married and lived in the Midwest with her husband whom she met and was stationed in Corvallis during the war. So that's where she met him.

TEM: Oh. Was he at Camp Adair?

JHR: Yeah. Oh yeah. That was a growing concern during the war. They had that whole area was full of all kinds of army. That was a real shock to little old Corvallis with their few students comparatively speaking and then to have all that at Camp Adair.

TEM: Did they come into town?

JHR: Oh yeah.

TEM: Did you all go out there?

JHR: What little there was in Corvallis to do [laughs]. They were pretty forward a lot of them, I think, with the little town of Corvallis, a little college town. Of course, it was close enough to get to Portland and that kind of thing, so a lot of them did that. But that was a shock to a lot of them, I'm sure, to 00:42:00end up in a small college town like Corvallis that was a little ways away but then a lot of them eventually got cars or somebody that they knew did so they could get away and do things that were more interesting. I know for a lot of them it was pretty dull in Corvallis.

TEM: What was it like on the resident side having this influx of people from all over so close?

JHR: I think they really enjoyed it. I know my folks did, meeting a lot of different people from a lot of different places. My dad was very gregarious anyways, as the speaker he was doing that all over everywhere, so it was not a shock to them. But I think a lot of people probably were a little unhappy with it because it did change the college town to a very different town with all the army there for sure. The younger people thought it was great [laughs]. We 00:43:00thought it was terrific.

TEM: There were prisoners of war there, too, right?

JHR: Oh yeah.

TEM: Was there any interaction between the town and...?

JHR: Not really, no. it was pretty much departmentalized as you would say. No, not... the weren't included and didn't want to be included, I would imagine, too much. No, and we didn't see much of them around. Once in a while there'd be a group that would be going someplace with the people that were herding them around but not very much. They were pretty much out at Camp Adair.

TEM: How would you have known who they were? Were they marked in some way or wear a certain color, or...?

JHR: No, but you were pretty aware of it. There weren't any people locally with someone who was saying go here and go there. So, it was pretty obvious. But it 00:44:00was quite a shock to a small college town, too. If they could get away they could go to Eugene or Portland, you know. They wouldn't stay in Corvallis because there wasn't much there for entertainment or anything. A couple of movie theaters and that's it. As a rule they were not going too much at the college that was available, like a college play or anything like that. They wanted to get to a bigger place. They were going to Portland or Eugene or Salem or someplace else. Because Corvallis was a pretty mild place to be, for sure.

TEM: Still is [laughs].

JHR: Yeah.

TEM: When the war ended did those people, did soldiers stay?

JHR: No. most of them did not. A few did, and maybe came back later even. But if 00:45:00you wanted to be in a small town it was a good one to be in and the college had a lot of things that were-my eyes are watering...yeah, thank you that was very thoughtful of you, my Kleenex is a little bit... and that's a nice, big soft napkin. That's what good friends are for-but at any rate they didn't stick around much. It was just a small, little college town. So, those that were there were pretty bored I think unless they could get away for the weekend. I know they were. I was already married so it didn't bother me. But there were a lot of my friends were pretty bored because there weren't guys around at all.

TEM: What year did you get married?

JHR: Beg pardon?

TEM: What year did you get married?

JHR: In '41. During the war. Then Art was overseas for a couple of years.

TEM: Did you have kids before he left?

JHR: No, so that was great. They were all born after he got back. That was one of the things my folks kept saying. You know, Art's going to be gone.

TEM: So, telling you to hold off on having kids until he got back?

JHR: It would be a good idea was their thing. Because there wasn't much there to keep you from not having kids like there is now, too, believe me. that was a nice thing to say and hopefully worked. That was for sure. A whole different kind of a situation than there is now.

TEM: So, were all three of your...Did you have three kids? How many kids did you have?

JHR: I have four.

TEM: Four. Were they all born in Corvallis?

JHR: Stan was, the oldest one. Then we came down here right after the war. All the other three were born here in Roseburg. And Roseburg was just a small, little town, believe me, was just a little logging town. It was sort of a shock, really, to come from a college town where there were lots of activities going on that you could join, things that came from the college you could go to and that kind of thing, but boy it was pretty dullsville around here, I thought. Art was from Portland, so that was even more of that kind of thing.

TEM: Why did you move here?

JHR: Because of the lumber. He graduated in forestry and he got a job down here. So that's why we came. A lot of people ended up down here for that particular reason. It was such a booming town then, really a boom town after the war with all the timber going on around here. So, they needed all the forestry graduates 00:48:00they could get and everybody else like that.

TEM: So, it continued to boom. Was there a point where you felt like you were living in a much larger city? Or did it feel like a much larger city?

JHR: Roseburg you mean?

TEM: Yeah.

JHR: No, I think it's always felt like a small town. Just the whole, don't you think so?

KAREN: Yeah.

JHR: I don't think it's ever. Of course it's grown in population and that kind of thing and things that are here, but it's still a small town.

JOY'S SON: I mean we moved here in '66 and there was only 9,000 people or something.

JHR: Yeah I'd forgotten how many people that...

JOY'S SON: This is 2015 and there's only 21,000.

TEM: Oh.

JOY'S SON: So, it's never grown, really.

JHR: No not a lot. Well, and it hasn't grown because the timber industry has varied and taken a lot of the jobs away now that were available then. it was a 00:49:00real boom town there for a while during the end of the war, particularly where they still needed that kind of thing. It's changed completely, I think don't you?

JOY'S SON: Mm-hmm.

JHR: It's a calm, small town now. Wouldn't you say so too?

KAREN: Uh-huh. Yes.

JHR: That's why we like it now.

TEM: What are some of the things that, so after you moved here, what are some of the things that you really enjoy doing?

JHR: Back when or now?

TEM: Or now.

JHR: I think the area around is wonderful. We can drive up the river to Diamond Lake. I think that's probably the thing that draws a lot of people here. Don't you guys? I really think so. I think that that probably draws them here.

JOY'S SON: Crater lake.

JHR: And it's inexpensive, comparatively speaking. You know more about that than I do. Once we rented a house not too far from here but it was out in the 00:50:00outskirts. I don't think they even had it as part of the population, did they? Wasn't it out and that part of it was still.

KAREN: When Joy moved here in '49 there wasn't a lot of stuff here and she was involved with a group of very active people who brought in the symphony. We didn't have kindergarten in our school system until the late '70s and so she for 26 years had a private kindergarten and almost everybody in town remembers Mrs. Rich because they went to her kindergarten.

JHR: As many as could get in. as I said, I only had 26 little chairs so that's how many kids I had twice a day and had to rent places all over. Because I was down in this church for a while. I was down.

JOY'S SON: Yeah you were in this church, you were in the church over there. You were over there.

JHR: Yeah, any place that had a big enough thing to put tables in. I had little tables that went with the chairs so whenever we moved we moved all the tables. 00:51:00Four kids could sit at the tables and so I was all over town with my kindergarten.

KAREN: Did your Oregon State training help you be a dynamite kindergarten teacher?

JHR: Because I took early childhood ed and now they don't have to do that but that was the most wonderful thing because you got such immature children sometimes and the people that haven't had that beginning part don't know how to deal with them, how to finally get them up and going. I found it very wonderful that I'd had that basic training in home ec because that was early childhood ed and to use it in kindergarten was just invaluable because you could talk to the parents and you could say what they could do to help this child feel comfortable or learn things that they were not wanting to do and that kind of thing, which I found. I had my own kindergarten, gosh, how many years?

KAREN: Forty-six.

JOY'S SON: A lot.

JHR: Yeah. Before they were in the schools. I can remember renting space at the 00:52:00church down below here which is a very conservative group and I think they were very shocked when they'd come in to find some of the things that were happening in my kindergarten. It's a wonder they let me rent the space.

TEM: What were some of the things that you were doing?

JHR: I'd encourage the children to talk with each other and we had show and tell, which they could bring things and that kind of thing. Also I was all for them getting out and getting exercise outside, so we were walking up and down the hill and we were outside in the backyard of the church and that kind of thing. Which I knew was so important for young children not to just sit.

JOY'S SON: We also had swimming.

JHR: Oh yeah and I had a swim program at the Y. I had 2 sessions a day with 26 kids each session. So afterwards we were at the Y, if it was good weather we would walk back to the kindergarten or if it was bad the parents would meet us in pouring down rain. That was great. I loved it because then I could do what I 00:53:00knew I should do having come... because you know the kindergarten programs and training they didn't go back. They didn't talk about children that weren't even ready for kindergarten that ended up in kindergarten. So, see I had all that training about how to bring about, just... so I was really very popular because of that, because if they weren't quite ready they got ready.

TEM: Was it just an academic term or did you do a full year?

JHR: Oh, a full year. Well, actually they were in sessions. It was then in Oregon it was just not the full year because they started slower and they gradually got it in as part of the curriculum. I did that too so the children had an opportunity to do different things as well. It was a lot of fun, though, because I rented space and some of it at the Y was great because then we could 00:54:00use the multipurpose room for all kinds, marching and stuff. The field was open all the way over to the VA then behind them, so we went out and collected bugs and leaves and all kinds of stuff. The kids thought that was great and me too.

TEM: Is it in the same place, is the Y still in the same place? It's always been where it is now?

JOY'S SON: It's always been where it is.

JHR: But that was just completely empty all the way around.

JOY'S SON: Yep, it used to be a little one-lane road that used to snake through there. Matter of fact, where the ballpark is is where we had the homecoming bonfires.

TEM: Yeah, all the way down. That's right.

JOY'S SON: Was right there.

JHR: Yeah, so, it grew a lot in that area. The church wasn't here. None of this was up here at all.

JOY'S SON: No, this was all blank. Actually, didn't Don Bailey own most of this?

JHR: Yes.

JOY'S SON: Yeah, he owned clear down to Truce.

JHR: Way out.

JOY'S SON: Matter fact, this hillside right here there's a fence at the top of it. Nobody can build past that because that's Bailey's.

TEM: Okay. I wondered what the... you kind of came to the end of an...

JHR: I don't know why they needed all that space. We don't know why he needed all that space, but he needed it.

JOY'S SON: The reason he keeps the property up there is because of the family cemetery.

JHR: Oh, okay. I'd forgotten about that.

JOY'S SON: That is up there.

JHR: I'd forgotten about that.

JOY'S SON: That's why he keeps the property because Don quit doing-

JHR: Is that his family or is it a family cemetery.

JOY'S SON: It's an "a" family cemetery but there's other people buried in the cemetery.

JHR: Yes, yes. I knew that.

JOY'S SON: I know that after his grandson died he enclosed it, erected an 8-foot fence around the cemetery but he still maintains the property to protect the cemetery.

JHR: Ah, okay. Huh.

JOY'S SON: That's why no houses can be built on the top of this ridge.

JHR: I always wondered why nobody... because it's a gorgeous view. It'd be a wonderful house.

JOY'S SON: You can't build on the top of that ridge.

JHR: No. That's why it's empty, huh?

TEM: It keeps a nice green space.

JHR: Yeah, right.

TEM: After kindergarten came into the schools did you continue to be involved with childhood education?

JHR: I was delighted that it was because you can only take so many kids. I had 26 kids each session. That's all the chairs I had. The little chair is somewhere out on the deck or someplace, but anyway.

JOY'S SON: It's downstairs.

JHR: I still have them, but I had to have my own chairs and just sort of move in and take over because like the church down here I was down here in that church right after it was built. It was close to home, which was great. I was at the Y for a while and I could share the exercise room. But I was in that little tiny 00:57:00room in the back with 26 kids [laughs].

KAREN: I think your energy-you were almost 60 when kindergarten became a part of the curriculum here in town. You turned your energies towards helping needy children and getting the learning center for little children, preschool, set up.

JHR: Yeah. It was really great because they couldn't all go. There weren't enough kindergartens until they got in the schools and so I continued to do that with earlier children so that when they got ready they were ready. That was fun too. I enjoyed doing that. Of course I moved around to all different kinds of places to have space. This church worked out really well because I could walk from home. Because we built our house there and we were down on Ording to begin with and then up to here.

TEM: Was it Head Start?

JHR: No.

TEM: Was that before Head Start?

JHR: We didn't have any Head Start. Oh yeah, long before. It was really wonderful because the parents found out that if they were having problems with young children getting along with others and stuff that I was the one who could do it because I knew how to deal with them younger. It wasn't that I was any better but they just didn't have them. the kindergarten teachers were learned from, they were just the younger ones that learned to go into the grades. It was really very helpful. I had gillions of people on the waiting list and everything. I loved it because I could do what I wanted to do. I didn't have to wait until they said yeah. I could take them for a walk. I'd just say, you know when we go for a walk we hold each other's hands. We'd go down to the Y and leave the Y and walk down to the playgrounds. I never will forget coming and getting a little ways away because there was a path on the other side of the 00:59:00road that was just narrow enough for the kids to walk. All of a sudden somebody said where's Joey, or whatever his name was. And here was Joey who had climbed up on the bar and was afraid to jump off and never said a word. We took off and here was poor Joey down there in tears hanging onto the chains and here we were halfway back up to the Y. Poor Joey sitting there weeping not crying or saying hey come get me or where or you going or wait or anything. We all trotted back and picked him up and went back to the Y. I never will forget that. That poor little guy who looked so sad [laughs]. He was sure he was going to be there forever, I guess.

TEM: When you're a kindergartener it occurs to you that you'll be there forever.

JHR: Yeah. That's lots of fun.

TEM: Do you still see people around town that you taught in kindergarten?

JHR: Oh yeah. A lot of them. every now and again.

JOY'S SON: Hello Mrs. Rich.

JHR: That's right. well, people would sign up because they knew that not only did I have them learn to get along with other people but the fact that it was a good program, that they started school with a good start. Because I had early childhood in Oregon State, which was one of the best, really, in the country and they had this wonderful people who were really into young children's learning situations. I was really lucky to have that as a background because we worked with much younger children at Oregon State than we did kindergarten ages, but there were a lot of kids that were sort of still at that level, so you knew how to bring them up.

KAREN: She used to do really fun things, like when she was teaching kids to count by twos and threes, she'd turn them all into sheep and then there were gate keepers and they'd have to crawl through the gate and they got to maaaah [makes bleating noise] and do all kinds of things. but the gate keepers had to 01:01:00go, two, four six. Unless it was by threes, then there were three sheep that would crawl through at the same time, and then they'd go three, six, nine. I got to observe some of those things. she'd just let the kids have fun and taught them along the way.

JHR: That's of course what we were learning in early childhood ed at Oregon State, very young, very early because they had that program, you know, and they were just barely starting. There were some back east and so on but not many young children. So, because I was lucky enough to be in that beginning part of it I knew about children that weren't quite that mature and so we could do things all of us could that didn't make them feel like they were being picked out or picked on. So, the whole class would do it. We did a lot of walking around. I never would've dreamed to do, unless, they knew when I said hold onto your buddy's hand that I meant hold onto their buddy's hand and if they didn't do it they were pulled out and they had to come and hold onto my hand and that 01:02:00was not very good. They knew it. We'd walk from the Y up to places and we'd all trot around. That was a lot of fun to do because I could do my own things that I knew from working with younger children that some children were not quite ready for something and so they didn't feel left out because I could include them. So that was a lot of fun. I enjoyed that a lot.

TEM: So, your parents were still living in Corvallis for quite a while. Obviously your mom lived there for even longer. did you go up to Corvallis to visit? Was it a short enough drive that you felt like you visited the college even in your adulthood?

JHR: Oh, yes, quite often when I needed to. Of course my mother still lived there, my family still lived there, and so I would go up to visit them. knowing that program that they had there was wonderful because I could call them. I 01:03:00could go up and visit them if I needed to or wanted to. So that was a really advantage to me too.

TEM: So you felt like you still had the resource of the college.

JHR: Yes. Very cooperative. Very cooperative. And the fact that I also had lived in Corvallis and knew them personally too was helpful. I think it made them realize too that it was very important for these people who were graduating there who were going on to teach older children that they had the background in early childhood ed, because often little things that happen carry on and make it harder for children in other grades to feel comfortable.

TEM: Did you have any resources through extension services, like home economics or early childhood down here in Roseburg?

JHR: Oh yes. They were always open to anyone who wanted to do research there or get ideas or anything. Oregon State I think has always been that way. Katherine 01:04:00Reed, who then was in charge of that part of the program there, was absolutely wonderful. She'd had some education back east at some of the early childhood ones that were there before they even had them on the west coast. So, she was a wonderful resource. If I had a problem or a question I could call Katherine and say, Katherine what do you think about this? Or do you have any suggestions? That made it wonderful for me too, because I knew that she had this background that really wasn't out here on the west coast. It started on the east coast where they had a lot more of that kind of education going. Kindergartens weren't in Oregon, you know, for a long time. they had them in California long before they came to Oregon so they didn't have any early childhood ed at all insofar as the schools, so it was really wonderful that they finally got it going. It makes a lot of difference with kids.

You don't feel like they're, well, everybody grows at a different stage. Just 01:05:00because you've five doesn't mean you're quite ready for kindergarten or vice versa or kindergarten's ready for you [laughs]. There were those bright ones that were way ahead and you had to be able to adjust with your teaching. Because if you couldn't... so, I felt very very lucky to have the early childhood ed of it because I could have taught the other very easily but to be able to bring somebody up that wasn't ready was the thing that was good so I had a waiting list forever.

TEM: How long did you continue, or do you still work, with children?

JHR: Not with young children now. I mean, after all, I have to work in my old age now. Not really. As soon as it got in the schools I felt that that was something that should be and there were a few like down here at the church and so on that he was still doing it. But, it was a bad kindergarten program and I was sorry that kids were going there because he just didn't understand young 01:06:00children and made them do what they were supposed to do. That's a whole different kind of thing.

KAREN: But Joy did start a non-profit organization in 2008 based on the art of her famous aunt and uncle who were award-winning book writers and artists. In that non-profit she and I created an art program for third and fourth graders so you and I were in classrooms, which was in her 90s she was in classrooms teaching art classes to children.

JHR: That was a lot of fun. So good for those children because they learned that everybody has talents and if they couldn't draw as well as the next guy it was perfectly alright. I think that was something that really was one of the best things about that program, Karen, don't you?

KAREN: That art isn't exact. Yes, that it's all okay. Yeah.

TEM: Did you find that, I'm assuming it's the same throughout the state, that 01:07:00art is one of the things that gets cut from public schools?

JHR: Yeah. Pretty much.

TEM: So, what is the, does the non-profit still exist?

KAREN: It only just quit in Christmastime of last year, but the program was handed off to Concordia University in Portland, and they have an elementary school, they share a common boundary and they do a lot of things back and forth and they're doing that program at that school. It may go beyond that, I don't know.

JHR: That was good. They're a wonderful situation up there. If you ever get up to Portland and want to see the Hader exhibit up there a lot of their art is up there now. I gave it to them because my brother was in the theater in New York, a producer on Broadway. He never thought about doing anything with the art that 01:08:00they had, but I got to thinking that it shouldn't be lost. It's so easy to have it stay in my basement, so that's when I decided that I needed to give it to someplace and Concordia was the one that wanted it. Because U of O, they gave a lot of their art to different universities, but like the U of O's is in their storeroom at the U of O and no one's ever seen it. There's a lot of it.

KAREN: Because Berta and Elmer gave quite a bit to the University of Oregon but it's stored away.

JHR: It's such a shame because it shows the production of how books are made for children and that kind of thing that I think would be extremely interesting. but what can you do? So that's why I'm really thrilled that they're using it. Karen: And Berta Hader was Godfrey's one and only sibling. He only had one sister.

JHR: Yeah.

TEM: Those are two pretty different directions. Art and a career in science.

JHR: Yeah.

KAREN: Berta was the messy one. Godfrey was the tidy, neat one.

JHR: Yeah. That's about right. yeah. Once they got into the book business, they really. They inherited of course my aunt and uncle's house in New York and it was full of all their original art. They had stuck it in the attic crawls up there under the eaves as it were.

KAREN: Your brother inherited the house.

JHR: Yeah, my brother inherited the house. They found all this original art of my aunt and uncle's there. But most of it now has been put someplace, we hope.

JOY'S SON: A lot of you see here. This is Paul Elmer Hader. This is an Elmer Hader. That is. That is over there. The two on that wall.

JHR: Yeah. This picture here when my husband was sent overseas during World War II I was stuck on the east coast, actually in Florida. I was waiting and we had 01:10:00a little car that we bought from somebody else who had been sent overseas that I could drive home. But I couldn't drive home by myself.

TEM: From Florida?

JHR: That was, I was down, yeah from Florida to Oregon very well by myself, or at least I sure didn't want to. So my aunt came from Tacoma, she was a widow. She came from Tacoma and met me down in Florida. Then we were able to get gas to start out. So we started out and we decided that we would come up the east coast first. So we did. We went clear up to Aunt Berta and Uncle Elmer's house. So we went back down because we had some extra gas and then went home on the east down by Florida and all down there. But anyway, so while I was there before my aunt got there they asked me if I would like a picture. That was the one that Elmer had done so that's the one I chose to bring home and in the meantime, that 01:11:00etching that's there turned up in my grandmother's house on a piece of cardboard when she died and we were up taking care of stuff in her home. There was that etching that Elmer had done way back when that I framed. You can go over and look at it. It's just beautiful. That I had framed and hung there. I was so happy to find it because he had sold I think all his etchings because I never found another one.

TEM: They look similar. There's a similarity. Maybe it's the trees. I mean, the same person did them.

JHR: This was one that we found. Where'd we find that one Karen? I don't remember.

KAREN: We got that one on EBay.

JHR: That's right. Karen's been watching for them. the ones that are up here are some that my own son did who's very artistic, who just died a few months ago sadly. This is one of Elmer's too.

TEM: Art continued to run through the veins in your family.

JHR: Yeah, to Jeff and unfortunately not me.

JOY'S SON: Both my twin daughters are artists.

TEM: What about scientists? Did that? Not so much?

JHR: What was that?

JOY'S SON: No scientists.

JHR: I'm good at kindergarten art. That's it.

JOY'S SON: I don't think Tim. Tim's not a scientist.

JHR: No. Jeff was pretty artistic and very much and enjoyed it and did quite a lot of it on his own and he's gone now and my daughter was not very into it but some, but not very much.

JOY'S SON: No, she wasn't into it.

JHR: You know, she didn't do it much. Isn't that funny with all that good background that only really one really enjoyed it that much?

JOY'S SON: Yeah, but both your granddaughters are.

JHR: Yeah.

JOY'S SON: Tara's a pretty darn good painter.

JHR: Yeah.

JOY'S SON: When you grew up looking at these all your life, you paint like that. And that's how she paints.

JHR: Oh does she? I haven't seen any of her own original art.

JOY'S SON: Yeah you have. There's one downstairs. The blue one that I loaned you.

JHR: That's right. that's down there.

KAREN: I don't think any of Godfrey's grandchildren were interested in science.

JHR: No.

KAREN: Although your son Jeff proudly grew hops every year in his garden.

JHR: Yeah.

KAREN: He didn't do anything with them but he proudly grew them.

JHR: No but he liked it. Yeah, remembered his grandfather. Well, Dad was quite a hop specialist and very well-liked because he was, as I say, such a speaker. He was always speaking at some brewer's convention. He was good at jokes and that kind of thing and he was always doing that. Loved to do it. As I say, he knew Bill Blitz by Bill and all these people that were brewers because when they had 01:14:00a convention they'd get Dad to come and give a talk. I'm sure he kept them in stitches the whole time. But anyway, so that's about... I don't know what else. If you have any other questions I'd be happy to try and answer them.

TEM: I think you've done a wonderful job. Is there anything that you would want to share that we haven't talked about?

JHR: Well, other than that Dad was a very gregarious, outgoing person and he enjoyed giving talks and was good at it and was often asked to be the speaker or the person who was directing what was going on at meetings and what have you. other than that he was just a good father and a lot of fun [laughs]. I think that his ability to be gregarious and open was very helpful to all of the kids. 01:15:00My brother, as I say, ended up as a producer on Broadway, which is pretty neat. I was a good kindergarten teacher, I think.

KAREN: Your dad was a proud alumni of Oregon State.

JHR: Yeah. He was there in 1914. So, right at the very beginning when it became. A very old, early alumni. But anyway, so... he was always a good public speaker. He was always being asked to be a speaker for something or the other.

TEM: Alright, I will say thank you.

JHR: You are welcome. My goodness you got a lot of [recording cuts off].