Carole Ockert Oral History Interview, March 1, 2014

TIAH EDMUNSON-MORTON: Okay, go ahead.

CAROLE OCKERT: Hi my name is Carole Ockert and it is Feb- is March first. It's probably about 1 o'clock and we are sitting in our dining room here at 910 Cumberland Rd. in Lake Oswego, OR.

TEM: So, Carole, can you tell me a little bit about your early life? So, where you started life and some of your interests growing up.

CO: I grew up in Belfast, Northern Ireland and I was a fairly school/books oriented child. I loved to read. And moved to the US I think it was 1969 and moved to an area just a little south of Seattle. And at that point, that was my 00:01:00really my first introduction to a hugely different culture and community and had a very large impact on how I started to experience the world coming from this culture where a refrigerator was a new thing, there wasn't central heating in the homes, you didn't have a telephone... The world was different and so in the space of a 12 hour flight my culture and my timeline shifted dramatically.

TEM: Did you move with your family or was it just you?

CO: Large family and some of the kids were old enough that they did not make the journey. They stayed back in Ireland and others, like myself, were younger and 00:02:00came over here.

TEM: How long did you stay in the just-south-of-Seattle area?

CO: Lived there... let's see... went to high school, junior high and high school there. Started college there and left there when I was in my very early 20's.

TEM: Is that where you met Karl?

CO: And that's where I met Karl. That was where we had our first brewing adventure together.

TEM: What was the name of the town?

CO: I lived in Renton.

TEM: Okay.

CO: When I was going to high school and then when I started going to the UW I eventually ended up living just south of the U district and Karl was living in 00:03:00the U district.

TEM: What was your first brewing adventure?

CO: Looking for something to do so we wandered over to the library. Picked up uh....sort of went through and sort of wanted to see what we could do. We didn't have an awful lot of money. We wanted to have a big party so we thought "alright what can we do?" We'll make beer and I made pretzels, the big German kind. And that's what we did. We went to my parents' house in the suburbs and found terrarium and washed that terrarium out very well and started the process of having a party.

TEM: Was it good?

CO: I was not a beer drinker so I never had any. But the pretzels were great. (laughs) The guests at the party all seemed to not complain. The beer was well consumed.

TEM: Growing up, was beer part of your growing up experience? Was it a new thing 00:04:00when you started thinking about brewing for a party? Was it something that you had done before or thought about before?

CO: No, not at all. I was not someone who really had any connection to drinking alcohol. I just didn't. So, it was kind of a different experience for me. It's part of the culture from whence I came in Northern Ireland, the pub culture there, so certainly I was very familiar with that. But not in a personal sense where I drank beer.

TEM: Did you leave Washington together then and go to California next?

CO: Well, sort of the next beer event was-and I was working both for King County Public Libraries and Seattle Public Libraries at the time and Karl was kind of 00:05:00taking a year off between high school and college. I had been going to the UW, taking some time off to earn money because I couldn't do both at the same time. And then the idea was for Karl, he had not ever left the US before. I said, "well would you like to?" Yeah, okay. So, we decided at that point that it was the time to do the backpacking trip through Europe on 3 dollars a day. So that's what we did, we got a tent and a couple of backpacks and Inter-rail Passes and plane tickets and spent the summer, June through the end of August, going around Europe and drinking, in his case he could sample the beers. I enjoyed being able to kind of show somebody else what I was more used to doing which was traveling 00:06:00through different cultures.

TEM: So when you were growing up in Ireland did you travel to Europe? Was that part of vacations?

CO: No. The Europe piece was different for me. I was comfortable going into England. I had done that. I had traveled around there and different places in Ireland. But, it wasn't an intimidating concept for me because again, I had made that shift so for someone who had not left the country of their origin if was kind of a different thing for Karl. So it's like nope, you just get the passports and do it. It's pretty darn easy. So it was very fun. It was really fun to do that.

TEM: What was the most memorable thing that you take from that couple of months?

CO: Being probably in the moment every day. We didn't have any plans so we just kind of woke up and said "where do we want to go today?" And that was really fun. And the other piece was we thought well, if our relationship can stand that kind of poverty, that kind of stress, we'd be doing pretty well. So that was another piece we took from it was that was really fun.

TEM: Then you came back and landed in California?

CO: Right, so then we came back and Karl had really enjoyed tasting all the different beer that he had tasted in Europe. His plan was to be a kind of a forestry person. So, we went on to Humboldt State in Northern California in 00:08:00Arcata and he went to school there for 2 years and I worked at a counseling center as a research assistant. And in the middle of that there was a large governmental cutback on funding any kind of forestry related jobs. I think it was Reagan that was in office at the time. I'm not a real camper kind of girl. That really wasn't my scene. I had never been camping in my life before so I wasn't over motivated to go in that direction or to have Karl go in that direction. But, I was working for, as I said it was a counseling agency. It was 00:09:00called Options and one of the things that we did was we worked with displaced workers from the forestry and lumber/logging industry, trying to help them reimagine their lives. And so we worked with them on resumes, we worked with them on other career paths. We would do interview practice with them and so it was really a very rewarding thing for me to work with people who were older than I was who were doing this really well. I learned it from the ground up with them. And so, when it was pretty clear that the lumber/forestry industry was not a good plan, I turned around to Karl and did with him exactly what we were doing with people every day which was 'what do you love?'

Don't tell me what you know there are jobs available in because we were in the back woods of nowhere in Arcata and there weren't jobs so you had to imagine it, you had to create it. So it's like well what do you love? And he said you know, one of the things he'd been doing while we were there was making beer. And so there would be a carboy of beer in the bathroom most of the time and it was like, well I really like doing that. Well if you really like doing that we'll do that. Figure that out. How do people do that? How do you get that job? And you couldn't google it at that point you had to kind of really do some work to figure out 'how does that become a career path?' That was then how we made the transition between living in Arcata and then going to UC Davis and living there for 2 years while he finished up a degree in fermentation sciences.

TEM: What was the year that you moved from Arcata to Davis?

CO: So I'm not someone who has every paid any attention to dates. Ask me what date we were married, which by the way we got married in, what would that have been, 9 months after we moved to Arcata probably. And, relevant reason, not that it is necessarily to this, but, it was a matter of, in order to be health insurance covered for both of us. I mean, that wasn't why we got married but it was certainly... well, when do you want to get married because that was just part of being impoverished, you know, student younger types and that was one of the benefits that we wanted. And...the date... I'm thinking I have no idea at 00:12:00all. It must have been '79, '80 something like that.

TEM: So late 70's, very, very early 80's.

CO: Yes. Yeah I'm thinking '81 would have been about when he would have finished up. I don't know. I don't pay any attention to dates, never have. Maybe he could tell you.

TEM: 80ish

CO: -ish, yeah.

TEM: So what did you do while he was in Davis?

CO: Ah, very interesting job. I worked for the primate resources center on campus and when I took the job I was supposed to be the assistant to the person who basically ran the primate side of the operations. And, well, there were some problems and he quickly left. And so that sort of left their administrative assistant kind of running the department while they spent the next year or so trying to figure out what to do. So, what I did was I would talk to the 00:13:00veterinarians, I would talk to the researchers, I would talk to the, sort of the blue collar staff who were actually doing the handling of the primates and I would put together the work order procedures so that the studies that the animals were being used for were all being facilitated appropriately. And it was really a kind of a cutting edge, kind of a happening place. It was kind of the beginning of-- primates are showing signs of a strange disease that nobody knows what it is. And it turns out, of course, it's going to be AIDS. But, we don't know that at that point. So it was really interesting. I quite enjoyed the job. It could be a little scary. Some of those animals were pretty aggressive and 00:14:00large and yeah.

TEM: What was the culture in Davis like then? As a university culture what kind of place was it?

CO: It was very academic. It was a very academic setup. Very different from Arcata and Humboldt which was a very laid back culture. Lots of Jerga Shirts was what they wore at the time in Arcata. Birkenstocks and Jerga shirts. Davis was much more directed towards coming out with those academic credentials. Sunny, warm, not Oregon. I used to enjoy going to bed and waking up in the morning and hearing the sprinklers and I would just pretend it was raining. I missed the rain so much.

TEM: So, you were there for 2 years?

CO: 2 years there.

TEM: And then what made you, I guess, what made you two decide to land here?

CO: Ok so...then Karl graduated and he was, yeah, ready to be out of school. And we came back here because financially we had a place where we could stay with his parents while...and not have to pay rent while trying to get ourselves sort of set up. If I dare say to the culture in general, at that point in time parents didn't particularly lend ongoing support to people above that age of 18. After you had graduated from high school you kind of had to figure it out. At 00:16:00least that was the case for Karl and for me. We were just kind of having to figure it out. So, we needed to get jobs. It was time to get jobs again and his parents had been living in Lake Oswego. We went and moved into their basement while we started looking around and Karl applied for jobs - well, he started looking at the job possibilities here and also up in Washington and applied at some wineries and actually got some offers in Washington. Again, my family lived up there so that was a known quantity too. And the question became, "Well, do you wanna - do we - do we wanna go that way?" So here's an industry that's established. I guess the first thing I could also say is the big breweries were 00:17:00just not hiring. There were no openings. That was not going to go anywhere that we could see.

TEM: So were there still...at that point, was Weinhard's still fully operational in Oregon?

CO: I believe yes, they were. Yep.

TEM: But it was not... it's not a...

CO: Not hiring. It was not an expanding industry. They were contracting at that point. And so that wasn't going to go anywhere. I mean he checked that out. That was sort of the first thing was can you get a job at Olympia? Can you get a job here? Nope. Nope. So, when he got a job offer. I forget who it was if it was Chateau St. Michelle or it was - it was an established winery. He could have taken it and, you know, real money, real benefits as an entry level position and so that's attractive. But, my old training kicked back in which was do what you love. If you don't love it's not the way to go. It doesn't make sense. So, I got 00:18:00a job here locally in Lake Oswego working for an attorney's office. And he eventually connected up with Dick Ponzi and was working for minimum wage in their tasting room and helping out in the vineyards in their winery. So...

TEM: Did they have a tasting room in - was he driving to the vineyard or was there a tasting room that was in Portland within the city limits?

CO: Oh, no it was out in... out... well it doesn't seem so far out anymore as the city has just sort of...but where Washington Square is. If you go out Scholl's Ferry from Washington Square that's where their winery was at the time and that's where their tasting room was. So, about a half an hour's drive from Lake Oswego. And that was a way to - for him to earn some money while developing 00:19:00plans with Dick for what would become eventually Bridgeport. And, I was trying to have those benefits and pay the rent and do a job that I actually really enjoyed.

TEM: So that's kind of one of my curiosities is did you feel...not the weight of employment but the - you have the job that you went to every day and assuming you had benefits associated with it and assuming you were making over minimum wage.

CO: Right, no, it was a good job actually it really was.

TEM: ...that that was a time though where generally in the industry, on the 00:20:00brewing end, pre-brewing end, there were chances being taken. So did you feel...there was a fluidness enough about your job that you could move if he needed to move? Or did you feel like you'd wanted at that point to...I guess...be rooted or be the stable side so that he could explore what he wanted to do?

CO: What I wanted - because we'd already talked. This is something that we'd already covered. We had looked ahead from a personal, relational standpoint and said ok, who are we, what are we, and what do we want? And where we were clear was that we were going to have children, we were both comfortable with me not 00:21:00working when we had children, and we were both comfortable and clear that we didn't want to have children until both we were financially able to be comfortable on one income and that was going to be his income and that he was going to be stable enough that it wasn't going to be a distraction of force. So that it wasn't going to be a choice between how can I do a good job being part of being a parent and also getting my career up and running. So we were really clear and we had that-we had talked about that back in Arcata. So we sort of 00:22:00knew what that was. So for my part of having the job it was simply moving forward in that particular agreement, concept, what we were doing. We were both - I mean it sounds sort of very contractual when you describe it that way, it wasn't, but it was also very clear, maybe more clear than you might think somebody who's twenty-two. But one of the things for me is that I am someone who's fairly introspective and likes clarity and tends to then follow through. That's just me-it was then, still is. And so for me it was just a part of what we had already worked out.

TEM: Was he coming out of - you know at that time, did he come out of the fermentation program or - let me take a step back. Were the prospects for 00:23:00graduates of the fermentation program good? Did the people who came out get jobs? So was there an expectation that this was a degree that would lead to a job? Or was it um...

CO: Typically. Yeah, typically it was a degree that was good technical training and that the salary when you get a job working for the big brewers, it was a good family wage. Good benefits and there is a promotional path so getting a job with one of the big breweries was a good thing and typically people did. But the economy had taken a dying turn and things changed in that particular point in time. And it just - the timing for that was not good.

TEM: So then, taking a step forward to working with the Ponzi's and those-how did those early conversations start? Hey let's start our own brewery, let's 00:24:00start our own...

CO: Right...so...we had been - when we moved into Portland and were living with Karl's parents and he'd have to tell you more about the specifics of that. He at some point met someone - I don't remember exactly how we got connected with Rob Royster and he was working at the Horse Brass for Don Younger and exactly how the - I think Rob then said, you know I know this guy who's kinda interested in thinking about putting together this idea of a small brewery and I think Karl was saying, well you know could you connect us up. And at some point he and Dick met and started talking and then it became a question of what would that look 00:25:00like? What were the resources? You know, how would that go together?

And...I participated at one point as it got kind of closer to what's kind of the job offer really gonna look like. And at that point I was like, well, I'm gonna be there. I'm gonna hear that conversation because all of a sudden that goes back to again in my head, ok we've got this thing going forward and I need to know about this and you know, kinda, so...I was there. But for most of the other - the more practical details of how do you build a brewery, no I didn't participate in that in any way. And certainly working for a group of young attorneys and they're real interested and they're really nice people and so that was kind of another place where they were kinda checking in and wondering how 00:26:00that was going.

TEM: So community-wise what was the-we live in a time where there is a very active brewing culture. What was it like then? I think we look back now and we see the pictures of the young big brewers that we know them to be now. What was the culture - was there a culture that you stepped into or Karl stepped into? Or was it, let's try this out?

CO: It was, let's figure out what it would be to try out. It wasn't even formed enough that it would be clear what anybody was trying out. So, that in and of itself made it hard to know what to kind of set yourself up for because there 00:27:00really was no way of knowing where it was going to go and a lot of people that you might have talked to about it the perspective was, well that's not going to go anywhere. So, it's almost-I would say, hard to re-experience from this perspective going back to saying, well what was that like? You have to erase all of the success that has happened since to realize that there was no knowledge of any of that. No understanding of, would-how would these places be? What would they be? None of it. Even where would they be. You know, driving around trying to think, where would it make sense to place anything like this and what is it you're placing? The idea that you were placing a restaurant was it? Well that wasn't part of anybody's concept at that period of time. That hadn't even been 00:28:00thought of as an associated part of it.

TEM: So at that point you were still working with the lawyers?

CO: Yep

TEM: And then on a - again I think it's the twenty-twenty hindsight of history. Was there a community of early brewers that started to form? Did they band together? And then, if we go in concentric circles out, was there - you talked before about the support community that allowed that core group of brewers to actually start their breweries. So, was that something that - was there a space for sharing within the actual brewing community? I guess that's my first question. And then my second question would be was there a kind of community that was forming within the support community?

CO: Well I'll try to talk - I will try to talk about the pieces as I experienced them. Not so much predict-sort of saying, well here's what else it was like for Karl. I'll just talk about where I stepped into it. So it's incomplete as a whole but it's my exposure to it. So, Bridgeport...found the location down in what - I don't know if they even called it the Pearl District then, I suppose maybe they did. But this location in this really sort of slimy part of town because rents were cheap and there was no money being invested in this beyond what absolutely, bottom-line had to. And Kurt Widmer had found a place that was-of course, same reasons, just across the street.

And so, I would be down at the brewery from time to time. And even to call it a brewery, it's not a brewery at this point, it's this old building with stuff being built in it. You can't call it a brewery yet it really isn't. And so with Kurt being just kind of across the street I would bump into Kurt or Rob who would be kind of looking for if somebody needed something or I mean - so it was sort this, you know, your neighbor across the street kind of thing. Borrow a cup of sugar, you know, there was that real practicality because not everything was readily available and people were trying to move forward. And where I would run into-where I would step into this would be...well of course, the very long, long hours that were required to get this up and running. Right, so if I want to see 00:31:00Karl, I know where he is. But-and that's the way it's gonna be. So if I want to see him I can go down and because he's going to be putting in fourteen hour days. And especially where things are getting to a point where they're hoping that they're gonna have product. And if they're gonna have-there's gonna be some beer and what are they gonna do? And there's gonna be a party. And so I would then hear about the party and I'll come down and I'll chat with the people that are gonna be invited to the part beyond just friends. Also people that they want to get the press in and get some word out. And because Dick and Nancy had their winery up and running, you know, they were able to bring that to bear and get people and they knew people. And they could make that happen in a really 00:32:00positive way. But I would be sort of showing up and kind of meeting people and talking to them. And once beer was being kind of marketed to try to get it into places in the outside world, there would be kinda beer tastings, I guess I would call them. And I'd go with Karl and Kurt would be there with Anne, his wife, and Tom Bon was doing Pyramid and Beth Hartwell, they'd be there.

And it was this, um, opportunity to talk to these other couples and see people who are...passionate isn't the right word from my perspective. They're just 00:33:00enthralled. They're just so fun. It's...it's such a part of excitement. This is just a fun thing we're and, yeah, people think it's weird and they don't necessarily think it's going to go anywhere but they tolerate you coming in to their hotel and they've got this room set aside and then some people come in and you talk to them and it really, um, was a good opportunity to see how this was forming other people's lives.

TEM: So when did it become clear, I guess, that again, looking from our perspective of present: Was there a point where it felt like it took hold and 00:34:00clicked and that you and Karl knew this was going somewhere? Was there a point where you felt like there was a...I don't know I imagine like planting your feet in the soil and you're not-or in the sand and the waves couldn't wash you away, that there was a feeling of stability. Was there a point like that?

CO: Where it became clear that it was solid enough that it was going to provide a living wage, I guess. Because the way that I experience the world...I didn't even really think about: would this go or not go? I was just-this is what we're gonna do and at what point will it do well enough that we get our plan in motion where I get to stop work and we get to have kids. So at what point will this sort of thing start to happen, you know, that part-there's a part where it 00:35:00clicks for that. But in my head, there was never any question. It was just, this is what we're doing because, well, because you love doing it. And, well, that's the only thing that makes sense in the world so that's what you do. So there-that part never really changed. There was a part I suppose where you could say there was enough critical mass in the city where it was clear that the city was embracing it. And then you know that it's going to sort of go through this exponential growth phase. I mean there's a point where it starts to feel that way. Doesn't change things for me or my belief about it. But, externally you can see that now other people are starting to believe that it is going somewhere as opposed to sort of tolerating you and just kind of thinking: well you're sort of delusional but that's nice. So, yeah, yeah, and I think that that probably would 00:36:00have been the first big party that Bridgeport had and you get all of-all of these people in a variety of age groups showing up and just having a rousing good time and, you know, you kind of put your finger to the wind and if they're having that much fun and they'll think this is a really neat thing then things are gonna start to happen.

And so that's the moment that I think that starts to happen because people then want to be part of it. People start to find us and say: Okay, I do this and how might that be useful? How might I be part of this? So, like, the lines begin to blur between people who are coming in and drinking beer at the pub versus, uh 00:37:00not versus, and then those people becoming: hey, you know, I do signs. Maybe I could do some signs for you guys. Maybe you could, you know, like you know, hire me to do some signs. And someone says well, I do advertising, you know, I would love to-love to help you with advertising with this. And so when that synergy starts to happen and they find us and they want to be part of it, then is the point where the lines blur and it works really well. And that, I think, is a key point of this movement as it starts to grow. Is that people come in to it and they bring themselves into it and the skill sets and their dreams for themselves. And they want their businesses that they're doing to succeed and it's the nexus of all of those things and as Bridgeport as a brewery starts to 00:38:00become real, starts to be where you can say, well yeah, they're brewing beer and selling it now on a monthly basis so we'll call it a brewery. Then, will Karl-- and fourteen hour days isn't gonna do all of it and yet there are now people who are coming who say: Yeah, hi, I wanna work here cause I think this is really kinda neat. Yeah, well it doesn't pay much. Yeah, well, I wanna do it. And, they, you know-so they come in and the part of it that starts to look different that's so important is that if you look at the general job culture at the time...pretty straight forward. But, this job, these people who are working with Karl at Bridgeport... in addition to the daily, grueling hard physical work that 00:39:00they're doing, they have reasons why they're there doing it for minimum wage. They have their own plans starting to kind of ferment and they're learning maybe what Karl learned at UC Davis and they're learning it from him and they're all learning it together in practicality and they're bringing the pieces that they have learned in their lives and then they're all hanging out after work, sitting around drinking beer, and just having a lot of fun. So, once again if I want to see him I know where to find him. It isn't home in Lake Oswego, it's downtown at Bridgeport so you go down there and, you know, it's not a... they're all sitting around a big table and having a great time talking and being, you know, twenty-four.

TEM: So did you feel, did you feel a part of it like you could walk into it--

CO: Absolutely! Because it didn't matter whether-and, you know, you gotta accept... not accepted, but the reality of the time here is it's really physically hard work they're doing. These are all guys doing it and so they're girlfriends, wives, but mostly girlfriends start to filter into this too because that's where people are so it's kind of that place where this young community starts to grow. Nobody has any money and everybody being fairly, what would I say, they are imaginative, creative, fun people. And they're there because they 00:41:00wanna find an avenue and output, how do they make that be part of their lives? So, people get along really well and they start to say, well, hey let's do a soccer team and they all, so they sort of start doing another layer of that out... I think all of those pieces were important. It was important that, not that I liked it, but it was important that we didn't have a lot of resources. Both professionally as far as the, the industry, the building being this kind of run down place and all of the equipment being kinda toggled together and 00:42:00everybody kind of pulling in their resources to help too and it required a community to both build it and support it and grow it and there really was an awful lot of that, that just developed. It wasn't pre-planned.

TEM: So did you, we talked in Corvallis about the, I guess his natural identification with Bridgeport and his role and that challenge in leaving, coming back. Did you feel that same sort of, I guess that Bridgeport was part of your identity and beyond I guess just being part of your life but feeling like 00:43:00it was influencing you in a way that would be different than if he worked at the law firm with you? Was doing some other, as you were saying before, more, this is what's expected of work, what they're doing is a very different form of work? So, was there a kind of identification for you and then did you feel like the work that you were doing as part of that community was influencing the work they were doing? So, as a moon orbiting the planet, did you feel like there was an influence both, I guess, on you and by you?

CO: I certainly felt that there was a very strong influence by me. And in part, 00:44:00that was probably-I think that that was complicated because I was a presence there that was very comfortable. I would come and go very frequently so I knew everybody, everybody knew me, it was very comfortable. And, Karl and I would talk a lot about what was going on and what they were doing and so I had a lot of impact on how things were happening there. But it wasn't direct impact. So it wouldn't have been clear to anybody else, actually, how I was impacting anything.

So, when that's the case then one is very careful, you know. One maintains that line, so, where, in fact, some of the other guys who were working there, 00:45:00their-their girlfriends might have been maybe working...well, somebody was doing graphics, right, doing that. So their connection, their practical connection would have been fairly clear. Mine would have been much less clear and that was hard, sometimes. But I made a very intentional point of maintaining that illusion that I was not in an active role, though I wasn't in an active role at all. But, it was certainly and influential role. Let's see, other way around... Influencing, how did it have an impact on me? [long pause] It was...a bit of a 00:46:00cultural influence, again being from-from Ireland there's the sort of the running jokes of pub culture in Ireland and I think that as the microbrewery culture grew up I think it improved my concept of pub culture that I saw it as a 00:47:00much more healthy family connecting concept than I had seen growing up in Northern Ireland where after work the men would come home, if you were lucky, and have dinner and then head out to the pub, just the men. The women and children stayed home and the men went out and drank at the pub at night and so as the microbrewery movement, as we all created it, we created it differently from that. And that was really both important to me and something that I think made me much more positive about the alcohol industry as a culture.

TEM: Well, and-and like, do you think that's something that is across the board an American microbrewery development? I don't know how much you know or overlapped with Colorado for instance. Is that a kind of uniquely Oregon part of this social cultural aspect that you may have alcohol but you also have spaces for families to be? Or is it-is it-it developed in the '80's at a time maybe when socially that was more how families worked. That it wasn't dad comes home, dad leaves. Was it-I guess what I'm sort of wondering if it was a uniquely 00:49:00Oregon thing or if maybe it was a uniquely 1980's...

CO: Yeah, you know, I don't know because I didn't have much...I don't know what was going on if anything actually at that point in other states. I mean, Oregon was really-I think, I think California was doing some. I don't know what else. I know that for me, it was something that, so, so one of the things, one of the ways this would have changed a bit, and I don't know if I can talk to this just a little bit. It's a diversion but we'll get back to it. So, if you think about it there were big breweries at the time and organization-they were organized collectively, they knew each other, they had an association where they would get together in these big breweries and so when Bridgeport came along it was an 00:50:00anomaly and the big breweries were like, well what do you do with this little thing? Do you invite them in? Do you tell them no, they can't-so that was sort of, that was a little bit of an odd thing and so, we got included. Karl had the credentials, he could have been someone hired by a large brewery and he got invited in to the association and that was a little bit of an oddity for them. They had to grow their inclusionary concept with this new thing coming along.

TEM: They being the bigger breweries.

CO: The bigger breweries. So, he and I start to go to different things that are happening and as it grows along, I mean-we-and so, at this point, we have two 00:51:00little kids. At this point we've kind of moved along a couple years.

TEM: When were Kelsey and Ingrid born?

CO: That-That I know, it is the one date I know. And I do sort of, it's my timeline, it's like well it was before that or after that let me find the (d.b.) years. So that was 1990. Okay, so, we've microbreweries moral at that point and they grow up in this kind of an environment. They're little kids and I bring them in, clunk their little baby seats up at the bar and, you know, I'm talking to the guys. Bringing food down and we're all eating together for lunch and the kids are there and then when they, these other brewery-brewers...mostly larger brewery events happen I start to bring the kids along because that's my concept. 00:52:00That's our concept. It was Karl's too. And so we do these fairs, we also do these other things where they're more sit down dinners and I have the kids sitting on the floor underneath the tablecloth and kind of feeding them under the table and as long as they're good and quiet, everything is fine. And they're cute little kids, they're well behaved, mostly. And, you know, occasionally you take them and leave, that's just the way it goes. But, it's this whole thing again of seeing this as a family industry and as my kids get older and Karl is more influential in this particular organization, I'm thinking of the Master Brewers Association and in the northwest chapter. And so, I then, you were is in 00:53:00this and it's in really trying to create this as a family inclusion because I say well, okay, how do we encourage spouses to come, how do we encourage them? Well, one of the ways you encourage them to come is if their kids are welcome. Well, okay, Ingrid, Kelsey, how do you feel about being babysitters for this next weekend conference? If people come you're the babysitters. Karl, how can we get a room where it's big enough where people can come and bring their kids and then they can go...and that's something that, it was important to me because I didn't want to be left out. I certainly didn't feel left out and maybe part of that was because I had the privilege of having someone who wanted to have his family included and also had...he's the guy in charge. He's not one of the brewers on the ballot, you know...further down the line. And so how do you use 00:54:00that ability to make it so that other people can benefit from that as well. It's not just you because people aren't gonna tell you not to bring your kids in. But, so, you know, you start making it easier for other people and that's something that was a big deal to me and I do think that it all added to people seeing it that way and then saying, well then, you know, in this brew pub we want places for kids to be able to be too. You don't really know which piece of anybody's behavior changes it but it all collectively adds to it.

TEM: And do you think that-so, was there-you said earlier most of the other people there were not spouses but girlfriends.

CO: Girlfriends typically.

TEM: And I guess the-was there a point then where people stayed with the company 00:55:00and as people tend to do as they get older they get married?

CO: All in a very short period of time, we're talking about a very short kind of a change there, so they do and then they are having kids and again it's all the pieces that flow together so yes.

TEM: And so at that point, so you're...you were full time with Kelsey and Ingrid.

CO: Yeah, at that point then, yeah.

TEM: And so as Karl's role started to change in Bridgeport and how did that-I guess, did it...did it continue to feel inclusive? Did it continue to feel like a kind of culture that was embracing a community, embracing families and 00:56:00influencing and influenced by not just let's brew this beer but let's develop a community? Was there an intentionality or kind of a natural evolution...

CO: Within the people who worked there, there was that and I think... yeah, I can't speak for Dick and Nancy's perspective as owners. I can't speak for that. I don't know. But, certainly there was within the people working there, so...

TEM: Did you hang out with other people from other breweries? Was there a kind of, not cross pollination but was there a kind of...

CO: Well, I got to know them all so there was certainly enough events that we would have met in different venues. I would have gotten to know the people who were running the other breweries. I wouldn't necessarily have known their brewers. Other than many of the people who worked as people assisting in brewing and Bridgeport ended up being the other people who started these other breweries or were working for the other ones and so I would know an awful lot of them that way because I remembered them during their sort of tenure when they were kinda learning the craft and moving forward through the Bridgeport model. And, that was great. That...and that was another thing that I guess I would say was... 00:58:00certainly from anything that I ever noticed, there was never any hard feelings with that. It was like, you learn it and you go do it somewhere else and you better...you've improved your salary or...never anything negative. It was like, that is so great, excellent, so good to hear it. Would you come to our opening? Yeah, you betcha.

TEM: Do you feel like that's changed at all. So, kind of fast forwarding as there are many, many more breweries; many, many more brewers. Not, maybe not necessarily fast forwarding to now, two thousand fourteen. Did that feel like with size anything changed as far as the kind of community ethos or...

CO: So, I think with size there did start to become more of that normal 00:59:00hierarchy and I think that there was more of the separation between ownership and the people who work there. I think that happened over time and not being part of the ownership, it was...maybe more...the distance between all of the different people who would have been working the different microbreweries didn't occur for me and I still felt that connection because that didn't happen for me.

TEM: So then...then as...so Kelsey and Ingrid grow up and graduate from high school in... two thousand eight, am I doing that right?

CO: I don't know, ha ha ha.

TEM: So, once they were...I guess-well they're growing up and so that, that part 01:00:00of the plan where you stay at home with them...that, that stage comes to an end. So, then what? Then what...how did...what did you do?

CO: So, my course going along with this...I have always, from before they were born, kinda took a break as we moved but I've always been pretty community active in local issues and, I hate to call it politics because on a local level it's not-democrat, republicans, it's not like that. But, certainly very active in that and so I have become, I have brought that more into my world. Oh, I 01:01:00suppose I could also talk about-and this is-and we have another, if we're talking about me... There has been another piece here that I have actually not talked to at all. So, if you remember back when I met Karl I had been going to the UW. I didn't finish then. I took some classes at Humboldt State in Arcata. I didn't take at UC Davis because I was working-the way I was working it wasn't possible. When I came...I...we moved a number of different places because it wasn't all Bridgeport at that point. There was Anheuser-Busch in New Jersey. There was...Nor'wester in Portland. There was...there were two places...The Pampas and some else in...The Firehouse, Puyallup and Tacoma. Then there was 01:02:00back to Bridgeport and now there's the MBAA. So, lots of different moves along there and at a certain point in time I went and started taking classes at Portland Community College because I had not...I did not have an undergraduate degree and I started taking classes to finish that. I went and took classes at Portland State and I got an undergraduate degree there. I wanted to graduate from college before they graduated from high school. I wanted to make sure that we didn't line up on that...one thing at a time. And then I continued taking 01:03:00classes in the graduate school at Portland in something called inter-personal neurobiology and while I was doing that I also studying hypnosis and I opened a hypnotherapy practice and I did that up until last year and stopped this year and I have been doing much more in the way of local politics. So...I forget the question-but that's...that's a timeline, where was I going with that?

TEM: I think that you were-you were-you went in the answering path which was...so once Kelsey and Ingrid had moved into their next stage, what was your next stage?

CO: Well, and actually one of the things that was also important to me-they...we 01:04:00had traveled with them...I did homeschool with them, took them to Germany, went to England, Scotland, we'd been to different places. One of the places we'd never-I'd never taken them was where I grew up. I had not been to Northern Ireland with them and so after they graduated it was one of the things I decided to do and... that in some ways, that actually did relate because I was-as I was sort of saying I grew up in this culture and what was alcohol in the culture that I grew up in. And, sort of going full circle back and seeing what it is in their culture today and what I, in an adult world, saw as opposed to a child and making that all part of that journey. I mean, for me it all does actually tie 01:05:00together and it does all relate and going back with them-going into a pub with Kelsey...all those many years later. It really is kind of a surreal kind of thing and sort of taking her back and for them having grown up in microbreweries here. So, yeah, it was all...it all sort of, in some way, blends together. Amorphously, perhaps, but it does all.

TEM: So they both ended up in history. How...well I guess I'm sort of curious-again, it would be talking to them so this is from your...through your lens. What was it like for them to grow up in the microbrew culture and then 01:06:00what-it's fascinating to me then that they both end up in the history or library world so...do those connect together? Is there a, I guess, any link there or any sort of clear trajectory?

CO: Well, there are-I think there are connections and I'll, I, if I can I'll talk about it through my lens instead of theirs. I'll just talk about it through mine. Again, remember, I describe myself as a fairly intentional person. Where they...when they were little, when they were born we lived kitty-corner from the library. When they were little, just learning how to walk, I would walk them to the library every day and as they grew older, but still little, I would leave 01:07:00them in the children's section while I would go somewhere else and they had the rules about how they had to behave and behave well. And, so, I very intentionally gave them a very strong connection with books, but that was... but as a parent you...I, I said okay, what? Karl and I are trying to choose this path. We're not choosing other paths we're choosing this path. What, from this path, can I maximize for my children? I think that's pretty normal. In a good world that's a normal thing for a parent to do and it's different depending on the path you're choosing. So, one of the things that we both saw, we could nurture in them that was an option was all the connectivity. Bring them places; take them places. Show them what networking means literally from the ground up 01:08:00where they're sitting under the table watching us do it because we had to do it because that's what the microbrewery movement needed to grow. We had to network, we had to go shake hands, and we wanted to and so it just became part of who they are. They just do it because it's who they are. They don't know any other way to be. Good sides to that, down sides to that. But, it's what we intentionally knew we were doing and it...I think that piece, that I think Karl certainly contributed directly, now, that the other piece, who knows how you 01:09:00bring it in, you know, I worked-I was working in libraries. My friends all were laugh-and just, you know you bring all of those things and your kids internalize it all in some magical way and so they are who they are.

TEM: Did they ever think about going into the brewing industry?

CO: Not that I ever heard them say. You know, I wondered if they would end up with boyfriends who would want to or spouses who would want to and...not that I've ever heard. Nope. And growing up they did not drink beer. Not that they weren't encouraged to but they didn't. Nope, just wasn't part of anything that 01:10:00they found... and isn't that-it says something too. Though they grew up immersed in the microbrewery community it didn't have to be a necessary part of it, that you drank beer. It wasn't for them.

TEM: So how have things changed for you now that Karl has a level of separation from daily operations or from, I guess, brewing...a single brewing company. How have things changed for you? Or how...what is it like now with the separation both of thirty years from the beginning but also just the changes in his role? 01:11:00Have you felt a change for you?

CO: I don't...in his current role, I don't meet young brewers going into the community. I still will talk to the large number of people that I've met over the years that I see in the different conferences. But, the...we were at one in San Francisco, lots of...a year and a half or so ago, lots of, huge lots of young guys and I don't know them and twenty five years ago I would have known names to put to most of them and so that's a change, to not-and there are so many that it probably wouldn't be-it would not be possible to do that anymore. 01:12:00So, that part, I don't have the same connection to their-especially all the little nano-breweries, the small brewery startups that are happening with guys for the first time or women...not to the same extent. So I don't know them the way that I would have before. I kind of miss that because it's just kind of fun to see people really getting their hands on to that level of development. There is much more of an educational component to what's going on in Karl's job at the moment and so I find that interesting too. And so I get to learn about another part of what it takes to keep the microbrewery movement vital and where it's 01:13:00going to continue its growth curve and what that's going to look like. So it's kind of fun in that way, that is has changed, that I'm now getting to see behind the scenes more of another piece of it and, yeah, that sounds fun too. I'll learn about that.

TEM: So what do you think...so I have a sort of very specific and then very general open ended... my very specific would be: what's your favorite memory? And I guess my more general question is about sort of the impact of this movement on Oregon as a culture. So again maybe an easy answer maybe a hard answer, maybe a hard answer maybe an easy answer.

CO: Okay, ask the second one again.

TEM: Okay, so, the second one is: the impact of the brewing movement on the culture of Oregon or, I guess, again, its ethos as a state, what it's known for. Sort of hedging into the: why is it important to save the record of what happened thirty years ago?

CO: I am really pleased to see that...Portland...I can't...and other times I can't speak for the whole of Oregon in terms of that East-West divide. I don't know in eastern Oregon so much. I know there's Bend, right? That's Eastern Oregon. But, I do...I am really pleased that it has become a part of Oregon's 01:15:00persona; that Oregon claims it in a very positive and proud of it way. I just think that's really neat, especially when it's so clear and present in my mind, those very early, that very early first year of disbelief that it would ever amount to anything from most people's perspectives. So, I love seeing the unlikely, I won't ever say impossible, but the unlikely become so very real...because I believe so firmly in that on an individual basis. I really 01:16:00think that's a healthy, healthy state for people to have inside themselves for themselves and for their families and their friends. I just...I love that. So, that Oregon internalizes that even if they don't internalize the journey of it. If they just internalize the piece that says: hey, it's here and we love it...still, it's so fresh. It is all part of this generational memory that I do think that there is a subliminal piece that says: you can make something 01:17:00marvelous out of something that really heretofore didn't really exist. That's just so neat! It's the part of what I believe in with hypnotherapy, right? Because that's an awful lot of what a hypnotherapist, a good hypnotherapist can help someone do is to help them believe in what hasn't happened yet but what the individual really wants to have happen in their world. So, for me, it's just a phenomenal thing to see it in this industry being embraced by a population.

TEM: Well, and it does, and I think in that sense it is the leap of faith of what you were saying earlier. Karl what do you want to do? And the creativity 01:18:00and the local identification and everything that goes into that. So, I guess, the...the...what's your favorite memory, what's the hardest memory? Maybe those are the same thing-that it...there had to be times when it was elation and...

CO: I think my favorite memory...this is just mine. I can't suggest that it in any way it has anything to do with Karl. But, so, we're taking that trip through Europe on three dollars a day and I have a photograph that is with Karl in front of an ad. It's in my scrapbook there. And why did I take it? I don't know. But, 01:19:00I do, because it says, in this photograph, its Karl and....it says: Und jetzt ein stiegl bier. And in the moment that I was taking that photograph I knew that's where we were going. We didn't, but I did and that's why I took that photograph. In some way, I knew. So, yep, that's my favorite moment. How do you know what you don't know yet? But of course you do, you have to or it cannot be.

TEM: And that seems-do you think then that's a...have you seen that or did you see that in younger brewers coming in, that kind of faith I guess?

CO: Oh, gosh yes. So fun, and, you know, the breweries that they went on to open. It...just love those guys, you know. We continue to do those Christmas letters and receive those cards from them and yes, absolutely each one of them had their own. And whatever it was, it might have taken a little while for them to have the confidence within themselves and the trust that it's okay to tell you that they're working for you but really they have their own dream and it takes a little while for them to tell you that and then to realize it's totally great, it's totally fine and everybody's happy with that too. Yes. Oh, god, that's just wonderful to see that.

TEM: So what's...was something that you either that I would ask or wanted to share? Anything that we haven't touched on. It's the question that's not asked. Oh, I wish she had asked.

CO: Oh, if only asked that... Well, one of the ...you make-so often in couples, there are jokes that are made. You know, it's like, yeah, you tell that joke, yeah, yeah, yeah... and yet, there's some...there is some truth that underlies those in many ways and one of the ones that I would say, you know, you know it's kind of a joke but there's some truth to it. I have very sensitive nose. I pick up smells and I never have liked the smell of beer, making beer... really 01:22:00disliked it. Beer in a carboy bubbling away in my bathroom in a little tiny house, in our case, used car lot house. We lived in a little used car lot office. And it was like, you know, Karl, you really need to do this professionally because I can't stand this smell.

TEM: Do you like the taste of beer, though?

CO: I did not probably like the taste of beer until, maybe...eight years ago, ten years ago at the earliest. So all of those early days of Bridgeport, all the other breweries too, I would taste the beer for Karl because my nose is very good and my sense of taste is very good so he would bring home beer and I would taste it, and it's like, ooooh, no no not that one or this one or this is what's wrong. So my...but I would never drink it because I didn't like it, any of it 01:23:00and it was always kind of a difficulty as we would be going out because, you know, you don't really want it really clear that you wife doesn't like the product so it's kinda like, oh would I carry a glass or would I just not even pretend. So, the upside was, I was really good at discrimination and he would bring it home and I would taste it and it was never...I was always going to dislike all of it so it didn't matter, but I was always able to very crisply describe it and be helpful in that way. So, that was kind of an oddity of the journey. Not one that one would typically talk about. You wouldn't think necessarily to bring that one up, so...but I think it's an important piece because I never took sides when it came to a bottle of beer. I could just describe it. Okay.

TEM: Well, thank you very much. We can stop then.

CO: Great.