IZOHNNY Oral History Interview, January 2, 2020

LAURIE KURUTZ: Today is January 2nd, 2020. My name is Laurie Kurutz. Would you please introduce yourself? Say your pronouns if you care to and tell me what you do.

ISAIAH ESQUIRE: Hello, I'm Isaiah Esquire. I'm a Burlesque performer and producer, teacher, choreographer, artistic director, and a few other things.

JOHNNY NURIEL: Hello. I'm Johnny Nuriel. I'm a Burlesque performer as well, a costume designer, and self-taught marketing/publicity liaison, creative director, and self-taught mover.

LK: Great. Where were you born? Where did you grow up?

IE: I was actually born and raised here in Portland, Oregon.

LK: What area of Portland?

IE: All around, but mostly northeast Portland around the Alberta area.

JN: I'm a transplant. I grew up in Santa Cruz, California, up until 18. And then I came up to Oregon for college in 2007.

LK: What did you do in your formative years to lead you to performance?

JN: Well, I had my first lead in a musical in 7th grade and then from there got really into theatre, performing arts, belly dance. It's always very inspirational to me. I discovered this beautiful dancer when I was in my early teens and that was very inspirational for my coming into myself and my body, and overcoming any sort of self-consciousness about my appearance that would hold me 00:02:00back from dancing in public. Very inspirational.

IE: Always singing and very athletic and artistic.

JN: Singing and all sorts of things preparing me for this.

IE: I started out in choir, technically from kindergarten. I spent most of my time in that and then I started dancing. I took up dance. I spent a lot of time choreographing and making up my own dances for different people in my neighborhood and my cousins. We would put things together and I was always in charge of doing all of that. Then at my sophomore year... Well, let me actually backtrack so it's in order. I would always choreograph everything for my neighborhood and so I started my own dance team my 8th grade year. I got to high 00:03:00school and wanted to keep it going and I started one my freshman year. My school told me that we could only have one dance team, and so they cancelled mine. So, I said, "Fine," and I joined my high school dance team my sophomore year. Then I started up my own my junior year. [laughs] And for the black student union dance team, I got it at my high school and spent all the rest of the time continuing to train and teach at the same time in movement, hip hop, jazz, lyrical, etc., and some African dance when I was really young.

LK: What formal education or training have you had?

JN: Specifically in Burlesque or just in general?

LK: Performance and then leading into Burlesque.

JN: Theatre background. Once I got into college I had some professional vocal 00:04:00training and improv training, but not a ton of formal dance training on my end. It's mostly interpretive or freeform movement, or natural movement as opposed to technical movement. I would say the theatre was what gave me the stage presence and the ability to improv and just being confident to stand in front of a crowd alone, on stage especially. It definitely takes some conditioning [laughs].

IE: Just dance. My whole family dances, so I started taking African dance at my elementary school when I was really young. Then I started dancing on my own, 00:05:00then started taking formal training a little bit after that. And I also started learning ballroom dance and teaching ballroom dance in 2004. I did some musicals after that. I still got some vocal training and some theatre and a little bit of improv, and just mostly movement.

LK: Yeah.

IE: I danced with a couple pre-professional jazz and contemporary companies in town, as well as a contemporary theatre here in town.

LK: Cool. Then, Burlesque specifically, what year did you get started? How did that happen?

JN: You should start.

IE: Long ago [laughs], I started Burlesque with an all-male Burlesque troupe. It 00:06:00was a circle of friends and that was 2007. I had just turned 21 or 22. In my head right now I can't do math, but it was recently after a birthday. My birthday is in February. I started going to the bar in April. A friend that I went to high school with, we were in competing dance teams together and we roomed together at dance camp and got kind of close, and he said, "Hey, a friend of mine wants to start this troupe and they're going to have a rehearsal and get together." I was the last person asked to be a part of this because I was the only new person. So, we had a meeting and we picked a name and then we had the 00:07:00first rehearsal and I started, me and one other person, Matt Elm, we started choreographing right away and that's how that troupe started. They wanted an all-male troupe to be kind of like, their reference was kind of like the Pussycat Dolls, but better dancers.

LK: What was the name of the troupe?

IE: Burlesquire. And that is how I became Isaiah Esquire. We decided to all have Esquire... [clears throat] Excuse me. And so I became Isaiah Esquire of Burlesquire and that was in 2007. First performance was that June and then we were really fortunate enough to be discovered by an amazing producer, DJ, scholar here in Portland that was managing the Rose City Sirens, which was our 00:08:00punk rock, queer, femme Burlesque troupe. It was a really, really big deal.

JN: Ahead of the time.

IE: [laughs] Yeah. They saw us at Red Cap Garage. It was on Stark Street when we still had a queer district. And they saw us in Pride and said, "You have to perform in our show." It was that simple. So then we performed in June and then they asked us to co-headline their end-of-the-year show, which was December 7th, I believe. December 7th, 2007.

LK: What were their names?

IE: There's Sterling, King, and Suzie, were the troupe. And the producer is wearing many, many hats so I'll leave their name, but a real staple and it was 00:09:00under SinSavvy Productions.

LK: Wow.

JN: History.

IE: [laughs]

JN: My path to Burlesque was very, almost accidental. I responded to a Craigslist ad. My first booking in town was an aerial bar.

IE: He's also an aerialist.

JN: I was an aerialist at the time. I don't do aerial as much anymore, but at the time I was an aerial dancer. I responded to an ad on Craigslist that was looking for aerialists. And it was called Sky Club, which no longer exists; beautiful, wonderful, very indie space, very positive energy for lots of very creative, very queer creative energy. And the shows were very accessible; they would cost maybe $3-$5. People could just come in and it was a safe space. 00:10:00Really cool energy in there and I just started to experiment with what I didn't even know was Burlesque. It was just kind of like sensual... I used a lot of veils, so sort of like a sensual veil dance. And I would show my body, but I didn't have a reference for Burlesque as much because it wasn't a part of my world. I was more theatre and belly dance and I've always had an emotive stage presence and some people were like, "Oh, you should do this show or this show. It's a Burlesque show, but you wouldn't have to change anything about what you're doing." So, I started to do more of those events. Just sort of happened by accident.

LK: About what year was that?

JN: I responded to the ad on Craigslist... That would have been in 2012.

IE: Yeah.

JN: 2012. That was my first paid booking in town.

LK: Then how did you develop your career beyond that? And then how did you start producing and start being together?

IE: In order, I guess I would say [clears throat], it's just interesting how connected all of the communities are since Burlesque is such a multi-faceted community and... The word I'm looking for... Since Burlesque is such a complex and multi-faceted... Excuse me [clears throat]. Thank you.

JN: Yes.

IE: Ruining my moment.

JN: [laughs] You got this. You got it. I'll keep it on hand.

IE: Shall I say that again?

JN: Maybe say it again.

IE: Maybe one more time. So, since Burlesque is such a multi-faceted discipline and community, it attracts many, many different kinds of people from many difference scenes. And so, for me performing in queer spaces that are also mostly cis-male spaces, mostly cis White male spaces to be exact in Portland, and then being connected to the Rose City Sirens, was connected to our queer femme community. And then I knew people from musical theatre and people from aerial and Burlesque and belly dance and the other dance community, were all kind of connected and so someone told me about Sky Club when it first opened up, 00:13:00before it opened. And they said, "Hey, they're looking for performers. You should come and perform." So I read the thing and almost came, so we almost worked together beforehand, but it didn't end up happening.

JN: Wasn't the right time.

IE: Right [laughs]. In 2013, January 3rd, 2013, my old dance partner and I, Ezekiel Esquire, we started BOYeurism at Star Theatre. That show was going for a couple months and we always had aerial and live singing and dance, etc. I reached out to one of my former students from Portland State that was performing at Sky Club. I said, "Hey, we need another male aerialist. Can you give me some references?" She described a few of the performers and we picked Johnny by 00:14:00description. He came and performed in the show and he was amazing and then we continued working together after that because he was a great fit with how his art all came together. That was something that was really unique and special.

JN: It is surprising that we had never met, too. We'd only been working together in town for a couple of years, but it's a small community. But we'd never met. We'd just been working in different scenes and I wasn't, at the time, as connected with the Drag scene because that wasn't a part of my craft. So we just hadn't overlapped, but one of our friends who took me to the show was like, "You're going to fall in love, particularly with Isaiah because he's tall like you and so graceful and elegant." And she just kept painting this picture. So, I 00:15:00knew who he was when I first saw him perform, just fell madly in love. Like Isaiah said, we just were a good fit and we've been creating reasons to work together. And we didn't actually realize that we had feelings for each other until later. It was originally...

IE: It was work.

JN: It was a professional relationship. We just knew that we worked really well together and had a similar code of ethics. How we treated people, the respect that we showed everyone at a venue, like the staff, everyone. Sometimes people in a certain level of status don't always treat everyone the same, but it was just always very apparent how much love and support and how much positivity surrounded the work that we were doing together. So, we kept working together. 00:16:00Eventually, realized that we had feelings for each other and boom, it's been seven years later and we're married and we're still creating together: an incredible love and creation together.

IE: Absolutely. And the role went from producer/performer when Ezekiel had to move to Texas for work. That was still in 2013, around October. I asked Johnny to come on and help me do some of that stuff.

JN: Two-man production company. Yeah [laughs]. Here have some of this.

IE: [clears throat]

LK: Well, this might be a good time to ask you. What is Burlesque?

JN: The question, right? [laughs] You want to start? You want me to start? I can 00:17:00give you the short version and then you give the more [laughs]... There you go. The short version, which is so beautiful because every person that you ask, it's going to be different answer. But for me Burlesque is more about the storytelling aspect and doesn't necessarily have to result in nudity. But it's also a very generous art form so it gives a lot to the audience. It encourages a lot of emotion and reaction from the audience. Often times what the audience is wanting to see is someone who's free and unbinded, and someone who's brave to show their body and to feel strong and to create these beautiful vignettes and stories onstage live, and sometimes completely improvised, as well. So that's 00:18:00Burlesque to me.

IE: I stay away from defining Burlesque. I think it's a tricky thing. I think you have to really, really study something a lot to be able to define it. If someone didn't know what Burlesque was and I was to tell them about that, and when that happens often I say that it is an art form that often surrounds stripping, the removal or putting on of clothes to tell a story, is the best way I can sometimes wrap that up in a really quick way. And that it is more about why the person is performing and why they're showing you whatever they're 00:19:00showing you, why they're taking that away from you. That is the best way to describe what it's like to watch a Burlesque performance. The base level, it's stripping and it is the erotic, sensual art that can be raw, that can be vulnerable, that can be comedic, it can be really sad, it can be very, very heavy. It's just however someone wants to tell you their story, but they're using their body as part of that way of telling you that story.

JN: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

IE: And anything else like that, I would leave it to a Burlesque historian to actually define it, if there are.

JN: If it needs to be defined.

IE: Absolutely.

LK: Outside of performing, what else do you do? You mentioned teaching, event 00:20:00planning. Can you just sort of flesh that out a little?

IE: I am a dance teacher first. I've been teaching dance for... Well, when I was finally allowed to teach, I can now say 17 years. Do the math. 17 years. And with being a producer, which is still connected since our art is our business, so that puts us into marketing and into... Wow, so much. So much. But I think the short version is event planning, marketing, oh there's so many, there's so many things that I'm trying to even think about how to summarize.

JN: Yeah. And there's the business side, of course. So, a well-curated event that ideally seems effortless and that it just flows and everything happens very naturally, but of course it's tons of work. And the design element, being a creative director, having a vision of what the story and the vibe of each show, even though you're taking individual artists who aren't necessarily connected. And so, how do you weave them together so it's like this tapestry? There's also the softer side, which is often times that we end up playing a therapist to people, as well. Often the hard emotional labor that happens is after the 00:22:00performance because we always make ourselves available for the audience. We're usually out mingling with the crowd, taking photos, and a lot of times people express their responses or their reactions. Though it's usually always beautiful and positive, there's often times some weight or it might have brought up something really heavy or triggering or emotional. We often find ourselves in that position to play the therapist. Both of my parents are therapists, so it's something that comes naturally to both of us. That's more on the softer side. There's the business side and the softer side. Isaiah's an incredible teacher. I design all of our costumes, so that's a lot of the behind-the-scenes work, as well.

IE: And when he's not working with shiny things and with show-folk, he also works with amazing, amazing humans.

JN: Yeah, special needs and developmentally diverse folk. Yeah, we all do a lot. Every performer usually has many different elements to their life.

IE: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. For me, teaching ballroom dance, as well. So, teaching much older down to like five and six-year-olds. So, I spend a lot time teaching. When I mentioned that I've been teaching for 17 years, most of that has been high school and middle school, and then I taught eight or nine years teaching college dance, and then I've been teaching adult movement for fifteen years. So, it's just mostly movement-based things. So, if I had to summarize myself without the performer part of it, then I'm a teacher first and then...

JN: Mentor.

IE: Yeah. And if I were to summarize Johnny's work in one, he's an incredible 00:24:00advocate and worker with the developmentally diverse of many different ages. He's worked with hospice and he's worked with a lot of different... He's a care provider, in addition to other things I guess.

LK: That's amazing. So, you are producers of a quarterly big show?

IE: It was originally monthly, and it was every first Thursday for... I can't think of how many years all together, but it was monthly for some years. And then we tried bi-monthly, which worked for a while. And then we had to go quarterly because of venue stuff, but then everyone was like, "Hey, we want this more frequently," and so we've gone back to being every other month.

LK: Okay.

JN: So, six big shows a year for BOYeurism.

LK: Wow.

IE: For that particular show. And then we also produce the Saturday Spectacular that happens at CC Slaughters, which we've just kicked off this year. Sorry, last year technically, in 2019.

JN: And that's every month.

IE: So, we're six months into that show now.

LK: And that's every month.

JN: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

IE: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

LK: And then the other one is bi-monthly.

IE: Correct.

JN: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And those are just the ones that we produce. In addition, Isaiah performs every week at a Drag show, Superstar Divas at CC Slaughters. And then we're regular performers at Sinferno, which is at Dante's, 19 years and counting.

IE: 19 years for...

JN: Not for us, but for the show. The show has been running for 19 years in Portland, every week. So that's huge.

IE: And the Superstar Divas are coming up on 13 years.

JN: Yeah.

LK: That's amazing. And then you each travel across the United States and internationally. So, can you describe the Burlesque festival circuit, about how the application process works, travelling, housing, how far in advance do you plan...? Just paint us a picture of what that is.

JN: Yeah.

IE: It is an experience [laughs]. The Burlesque festival experience, it's something that is vast and overwhelming and fulfilling and can be exhausting, but we did our first festival together... We did the very first Seattle Boylesque Festival in 2014. April 24, 2014, was our first Burlesque festival 00:27:00experience together. And I personally, with my other performance partner in a troupe, we avoided the festivals because we didn't think there was space for us there for providing queer, male art, how we connected with Burlesque...

JN: And androgynous, as well.

IE: ...And classic. There was a thing when I was starting to perform originally: I couldn't get into Drag shows to perform just dance. We were just a dance troupe that would perform at a Drag event. Then sometimes if I was doing a solo or something, everyone's like, "I don't get it. You're not wearing a wig; you're not wearing all this stuff. You're not doing Drag or you're only doing half Drag," and people didn't understand, and they wouldn't book us as dancers and they wouldn't pay us as dancers. And so that was within the gay, nightlife 00:28:00scene. Then with Burlesque shows, once we started, because we were a couple months in and we were trying to get in to the door, and that was closed to us because I wear heels, but no stage makeup at the time either. Really just heels and that was something they didn't know because that was too queer and too andro for the space they were trying to create and the image that they wanted.

So, that was what I was interacting with still all the way up until 2014, and still to this day. And so, my dance partner had just left and it was a few months in. Jen Gapay, who runs the New York Burlesque Festival and does so many things and she loves mermaids [laughs] and is just a really powerful, amazing human, reached out to us and said, "Hey, I heard that your troupe isn't doing a 00:29:00thing anymore, but your name kept coming up." I messaged her back and said, "Yes. Hey, my old dance partner has left, but my partner-partner performs amazing art and we could put something together for you." And she said, "Yes." So, she actually took us without a formal video. First year, just based off of what she had heard of Burlesquire and trusting in the first one and she was willing to take that risk. And so, we came and performed and he did fire and aerial.

JN: We came out guns-a-blazing because we also thought it was a competition.

IE: Because that's the only festival we knew.

JN: So, we were determined to win. So we're like, "Oh, we got to bring the heat." So, we brought the fire and aerial chain and all these elements for our first festival. It didn't turn out to be a competition, but we really made a big impact. And still we've been invited back every year to be a part of that festival, which is an honor. Going back to the question about the application 00:30:00process and all that: for most performers they, especially with the Burlesque renaissance and this boom, there's now thousands, tens of thousands Burlesque performers across the country that are all vying for these spots in festivals. A lot of Burlesque festivals is rejection for a lot of performers, that they'll apply and it could be a range of different reasons why they don't get in. That's often the case for a lot of people. They put themselves out there and they apply. Obviously, the Burlesque Hall of Fame is the biggest example of that because they get thousands of applications and they can't accept everyone.

We're just very honored and blessed that Jen wanted us. We weren't a part of 00:31:00that scene and part of it had been intentional. We're just doing our own thing, we were doing our own lane. We had also been travelling a lot with another troupe that's no longer actively performing and travelling, but we had been traveling all across the US to a lot of conservative parts of the world, which is a whole other story [laughs]. But it was just an honor that she wanted us and that she encouraged us to be a part of it because it did show us that we did belong in that space and that we could be celebrated in that festival circuit and it opened up a lot of different possibilities for us to travel.

IE: From that, being asked to come back to that festival and then asked to say, "Hey, would you come to the New York Burlesque Festival? You should apply at 00:32:00least. Apply to that." Then from there we did the Show Me Burlesque Festival in St. Louis. Lola van Ella. And so we were able to define these little pockets of spaces that wanted us as we were, and it's been beautiful and we're very blessed because it has not always been that way. We do still get met with rejection in that way, but significantly less than before and significantly less than what some people are. We have the benefit of standing out and being really different in a time that people are open to and wanting to explore and highlight that. So, our impact is our currency. It is our weight of us standing out. It does make it 00:33:00easier for a producer looking at hundreds of videos to remember us and then decide if they want us to come back.

The short list of it is there's amazing Burlesque festivals somewhere around the world. You see the application, you pay the application fee, you fill it out, you can submit one to three videos in some of three different acts. The average length is between four and five minutes. It has to be under four to five minutes. And preferably they want that in the video. It can be rehearsal videos for some festivals, some it has to be a stage performances. It doesn't necessarily matter for high quality stuff. Then you send that in and they get hundreds and hundreds of them. You wait for a few months, usually; at least a 00:34:00solid month. There's no way you're hearing back any sooner. So, you wait for a few months to hear back and you'll usually see people online posting that they got into the festival and then you will either get an acceptance letter via email or sometimes some festivals will send you a letter if you did not get in the festival, many don't. You only hear back if you got in.

Then you go and you get a chance to meet all the amazing people. You pay your own way in most of the festivals. You're paying to play in the instance of you're playing to be around colleagues and amazing and inspiring people doing the same art form as you in some capacity. And then there are multiple nights. There's usually two to three nights of shows, packed showcases with amazing headliners that are in the Burlesque top 50 and people have been touring all 00:35:00over the world and all these really cool names and some up-and-coming people that are just shiny and spectacular. Then you get a chance to perform maybe your four-minute act, and all the rest of that time is being able to just sit and watch. You can buy cool vending things. You can get pasties and photos with people. Sometimes festivals help you with housing, so you can make new friends and things like that because you'll be sharing the same Airbnb or be in the same hotel and that's where a lot of the bonds are made. That's also how you get your name out there, essentially. It's like a big convention to hopefully get you future work and more information and opportunity to learn from Legends and other teachers. Trying to paint a full picture that's...

JN: Plenty [laughs].

LK: You mentioned a travelling caravan kind of show. Can you explain about that?

JN: It was actually called the Caravan of Glam. You do your research. The Caravan of Glam, which we're no longer part of that, but for three to four years of time...

IE: More than that.

JN: Five years of time? Basically, it was Isaiah and myself, another performer, Ecstacy Inferno, Drag queen, fabulous personality, Jayla Rose, incredible aerialist, trans performer...

IE: Gymnast.

JN: Very incredible physical performer. Mostly the four of us really blazed the trail for that one. We travelled to many different red states doing openly queer art, mostly billed as Drag even though I always tried to avoid putting it into a 00:37:00nut shell, but a lot of people see men wearing makeup and sparkly outfits and they just assume it's Drag. Obviously, it's more complicated than that.

IE: Drag Race was really moving and so it was a word that businesses started to be a little bit more open to.

JN: Right, because it's money, right? It brings in the people, but here was obviously a lot more than Drag going on. Long story short, that was sort of how we first saw a lot of different states, was under this show and we would travel to the places that other shows wouldn't go. And a lot of that was risk for us, not so much... We were always met with love and acceptance even in these very conservative places, which I think is important for people living in liberal America to realize, that there are still very loving, very open-minded people in 00:38:00these places that are often very stigmatized as being very inhospitable to queer people or just people that are not of that political mind. So, it was a good reminder of that. It was always met with a lot of positivity. There were often people that would come with the intention of, maybe they wanted to laugh at the freaks or maybe their intentions weren't so good from the beginning, but by the end of the show we were all like one big family. They maybe didn't expect to have such a heart reaction. It was positive.

IE: And we were with that troupe a little over five years. It started in 2013, as well. And I was going to piggyback off of something that you said, if I can 00:39:00only remember what it was. About going to the different red states... With part of this, red states and conservative places, and not all blue states are necessarily very liberal. It is complicated. We were not just bringing queer art, but we were bringing queer art and there was also a component of race and people of size, and a real big difference for some people who view beauty and things that they can respect and like and celebrate. So, we were a lovely combination of all of those things. That was a lovely challenge and that was for five years. We were on America's Got Talent for that. We were on national TV performing in front of a lot of people and exposed to I think 14 million households, of just being visibly queer. We decided to not go forth with that 00:40:00show because of contracts and things being too binding for what we were working on. But the cool thing is that they still showed that little clip of us, which still got a chance to be spread to a lot of people seeing a trans woman, a Drag queen, and two androgynous, male-identified performers that were a couple, performing something that wasn't just lip-synching. It was singling live and backflips and Johnny doing aerial chain and fire hooping and dance. So that was really powerful to be able to share with people as part of that troupe.

LK: The stereotype of Burlesque is of male producers and exploited female performers. What's the Burlesque community like in Portland?

IE: When I started, it was actually flipped and the producer that discovered us 00:41:00and got my troupe from performing in Drag spaces that we weren't celebrated at at that particular time to Burlesque spaces was/is femme-identified. AFAB, actually. Then the other three producers that I knew were all women. I knew one Drag artist started producing after that, but that would have been also around 2009, 2008/2009. But it was all femmes and one dude. That was just what is what here in Portland, at least. That has shifted. Some of those lovely ladies have moved and things, and right now it's a little bit more male-dominated. It's 00:42:00probably like a 60/40. I can kind of name them. I can name them right now. It is us, it is the Mad Marquis, and it is Zora Phoenix for the male-identified producers in town. And the list goes longer for femmes right now...

JN: The femmes and the thems.

IE: The femmes and the thems, which is incredibly important, having more visibility and taking up more space, but it is definitely shifted. But I will add that the male producers have often yielded more power either because of having more money, more status, or more rapport with venues. I would still say that for sure.

JN: And then as far as venue ownership, it's still very much male.

IE: The venue owners, absolutely.

JN: And that's a big part of the working relationship, is through the owners of the venues. Also, I was going to say the audience has changed a lot I'm sure. Portland has a long history of Burlesque. Just like anywhere across the country, lots of history here. But just like any audience, you always hear the legends talk about what it was like and how you look out in the audience and you see a sea of male faces. Nowadays, it is very mixed crowds across the gender/sexuality spectrum, age spectrum. And so that's really cool to see how many ladies come out to the shows, how many people over 50, I'll just say, are out having a great time. So, that's really cool to see and I can only imagine how wonderful that is 00:44:00for the legends to go out on stage and have such a different experience from the audience standpoint. It's definitely a positive change in that regard.

LK: Great. Shifting to more artistic aspects. What's your process for creating a new piece of Burlesque for you, yourself to perform?

IE: Two things: I think that this is definitely something that Johnny should start with. And then I also have to excuse myself very, very briefly.

JN: Okay.

LK: Go ahead.

JN: You go ahead. Is that okay?

LK: Yeah, you bet. This is live theatre.

JN: We'll see you shortly. [Isaiah Esquire briefly excuses himself from the interview at this point.] Act development... Everyone's different. Everyone is different. For me, there's a pathway and sometimes it's different for me, as 00:45:00well. I don't have it regimented, but I will say that it's very rarely the costume first. It's usually the music first for me, which a lot of people... It's also been because I make the costumes, as well. So I've also created a costume and then been like, "I have no idea what this is for [laughs], but I love it." I'll wear it and I'll be like, "Who is she?" or "What is this?" And then the act develops from there, but more often than not it's the music that is my biggest inspiration. So, I mix music together using software and just create a sound map, like a sound collage to help me tell my story. From there, the costume and the colors will kind of start to come to me. So I'll be like, "Alright, it has to be something like this, and flows like this. This kind of 00:46:00fabric." The music tells me those things.

Then as far as choreography, there's actually no choreography in any of my acts. So, it's all improv all the time. I know my music, is what I know forward and backward, upside down. I know it through and through. It's in my body. That's my map, and so I never get lost in my act. I always know exactly where I am, but the in-between is always improv to allow myself freedom and flexibility to play off of the crowd or to create an act in the round, as opposed to for a theatre crowd. If you're doing something more immersive, then you have the freedom to move. When we just did our New Year's Eve event, the theatre has this big hallway that comes down and our green room was in the back. So, we didn't really 00:47:00have the option to enter from behind the stage. We had to make an entrance from the house. So, if you're too strict with yourself and your act, your choreography, you don't have the freedom to just feel and go from there. [Esquire re-enters the interview at this moment.] So, I will say that 90 percent of the time, it's music first, and then sometimes I'll just have something fabulous that I must wear onstage and I have no idea what it's for. So, I'll just create an act around that costume [laughs]. That's me. And then creating together is a whole other beast. And we have a very beautiful, loving relationship and definitely whenever we're creating together is when conflict and just a healthy meeting of the minds, but that's not always graceful or easy, really [laughs]. That's a whole other story. You go.

IE: Similar. I think that the music often tells everything. I love opera. Both 00:48:00of us do. It's something that's fun and there's always so much story. And because I'm blending many different disciplines together for me, because most of my Burlesque is dance, theatre, and Drag fused, and the main Drag aspect most commonly is just that lip-sync is part of my performance, which some people liked within Burlesque, some did not. That's been a feeling; it's not a new argument. And then how I'm fusing it, my influence and why I lip-sync and where some of those characters come from was from Drag. It shifted because as a 00:49:00dancer, your whole job is to bring out someone else's story. You're just there and you're just a vessel for them to move however they want. So, it can't be too much of you. There's a moment that you have to get out of the way to let your instrument be used the way that the director/choreography needs it to move. And so, you're not losing yourself necessarily, but it's different. It's not like defining you.

There was an act that I was doing for a Rose Hip Review, which was the production that SinSavvy started doing. We were at Star Theatre after moving from Barracuda Night Club, which was where Rose Hip Review stared, which was the 00:50:00Erikson's Saloon, which is where Darcelle's used to be. There's a lot of history. It's a historical building and it had a huge stage and we used to perform on a smaller stage and that adjustment was hard to me. I had a personal act that I wanted to do and just dancing to this song didn't really do it. It didn't get my full story across. And so, I was like, "I need to be saying these words. I can't really sing it. It's not a good vocal performance. It doesn't make sense for me to sing it, so I'm going to have to lip-sync it." For me, it was like a scene out of a musical and it's definitely... Watching a Drag artist that's dancing to Rihanna, they're just step-touching and dancing around. It's a really different experience. You're just dancing to the music and you happen to be moving your mouth to the words, versus seeing a musical there's all this dialogue, there's all this story and this dialogue set to music. That changed everything for me when I did that act. That was me saying it and as a dancer, 00:51:00you're reacting to the music most of the time. Music happens so you're reacting and you're showing the audience what that experience is for you. So lip-synching let it be firsthand and it was the only thing that's did that for me.

It just changed a lot of my art and so when I'm developing an act it depends on if there's lyrics or not for one. The lyrics help tell me all of the rest of, "Why did this person need to say this. How did they get to that place?" And then that can be, "Well, this song sounds like this color." So, I think in a really weird way sometimes. This sounds like only these colors can work. And then I can listen like, "This sounds like a natural purging," and that's how Burlesque acts happen for me. It's not a, "Oh, I strip here." It's a, "I need to shed this. I need to transition into something else," which is what Johnny's art has always been. He came doing that art way before he knew. He wasn't trying to recreate 00:52:00anything. It's just a natural part of his internal dialogue often when he creates.

And so it's the same thing, so, "In this act, cool, they're saying this. I think there's this many times that they will need to transition." Then I can talk to Johnny and say, "Hey, this is how the costume idea would like to come," and then they will like to make that. That usually is how it goes. The music tells me if I need to be lip-synching, if I'm just dancing, if it is something that I'm telling a person, or I'm letting the audience watch me have an experience. And that kind of shifts everything else. Every once in a while, I'll be like, "I need a moment to happen. I need a certain emotion or impact to be had first." Then from there, then the music will come and then everything else comes. So, it just depends.

JN: And lighting, too. The lighting is also super important. So, you like to 00:53:00really spend your time making sure that the lighting is just right because it's a full choreographed... The lighting and the sound and everything has to be just right for the audience to get the reaction that you want.

IE: And the makeup. We're trying to take you out of your seat. We're trying to transition you and transcend you somewhere else. We need to do our job to fortify that rocket so there's no holes as it's going up into space [laughs] and then we'll have shingles and things falling off. So, it's harder to stay in the moment. It has to be a fully actualized thing. There needs to be room for that. Just to wrap up, when I talk about choreography, as a part of it, sometimes the choreography reveals itself first. The music will be here and I'll know exactly 00:54:00how I want to move. What I've noticed from being a choreographed dancer for so long is your main thing on stage is executing. So this is why... Drag keeps you firsthand and it's an immediate conversation. Dance, you rehearse the whole thing and you spend the whole time executing it so you're slightly more removed by nature because you have to remember how to do all the things that you're doing. So, you can't get too loose because you have to do this exact thing in that way.

So, both of those things coming out are really different, so mine is a little meld of that. So, I will do the act a few times usually. I know maybe a couple bookend parts that I want and I'll do the act. Then when the act feels good, I'll watch that video and that's how I'll set the choreography. It's like, "This part feels organic for what I want to be saying when everything lines up." And 00:55:00then we also create many different versions and lengths of an act. Sometimes we'll create it and I'll have him mix it for me, and the music's right and I'll go out and perform it and I'm like, "Yeah, that one feels too short. This section feels too long when I'm onstage. All the energy is going and I'm pushing out everything and the audience is giving it back." That reveals if it's complete or not and then I'll start forming it. It feels a little too cold and too rigid for me, personally, to choreograph it 100 percent first. It never feels as good and it never looks as good onstage.

LK: Okay. The topic of cultural appropriation: Can you give an encapsuled point of view about it? What you guard against? Just a quick snapshot.

JN: Yeah. I'll start. So, definitely a big, big thing to be aware of. It's very 00:56:00important to be aware of this, not to take it lightly.

LK: And what is it?

JN: Right, what is it? I always gauge that if you do something that someone in the audience has a negative reaction, they feel like their culture has been dishonored or disrespected by someone who's clearly, visibly not of the culture that they're embodying, then that is cultural appropriation. And it comes up a lot with music choice or type of dance.

IE: Costume.

JN: And costume, it comes up a lot. If you're embodying a cultural performance, but your skin tone doesn't match, like if I was to do a cultural dance that was 00:57:00not of my culture as a white person and someone was offended by that, that would totally destroy me. So, I'm always very careful. And I'm very influenced by a lot of different world music, as well. I don't just like one type of music. I'm very inspired by Indian music and Japanese music and music from all over the world, Middle Eastern music through belly dance and everything. There are some songs that I'm like, "Yes, this song I feel comfortable incorporating into my act because it doesn't feel like it's overtly cultural, but it has influences in the drums maybe." The drum has an eastern feel, but it's not overtly Middle 00:58:00Eastern. So, I'll feel comfortable enough to perform to that song, but there have been some very poor choices, mostly from people that have skin like mine.

It's not always the worst intention, but just that people aren't thinking that it could be offensive. Someone who is offended in the audience should never have to justify. They shouldn't have to defend why it's inappropriate. You should just accept, "Yes, that was inappropriate. My mistake." There shouldn't be a debate. It should just be, "Yes, I shouldn't have done that. How can I make this right?" So, hopefully you've thought about that beforehand, before you go onstage so you don't have to have that situation. It's very uncomfortable for 00:59:00everyone involved. That's how I feel about it. Do you want to share?

IE: Yeah. I think that the big thing of gauging... The short answer for cultural appropriation for me is if it feels like you are stealing someone else's culture or someone else's experience, like making light of someone else's experience. And a good gauge for that for us, because we talk about it, we are an interracial couple, is if someone of the culture that you are inspired by or borrowing from, if they did the same act, would they have the same act and get the same response? And so, that is when it is a thing of privilege. That came up a lot with people like, "Is twerking okay in Burlesque?" And I was saying, 01:00:00"Well, if this white performer is twerking, then it's cool: she's a bad girl, she's a rebel, x, y, and z. But if a performer of color, especially if it is a black woman, is onstage twerking, then it's low class and it's this and it's that." And you're not having the same response, so you should not be doing that. I think it helps because people are always wanting to gauge. No one is wanting to be overtly hurtful to anyone, but we have a hard time figuring out a gauge of something that is so gray. That has been a decent one to me because, as being a person of color, I can still appropriate culture because there are many cultures that I am not personally a part of. So, I can use that wrong.

Being inspired musically, I think you have the most room to use your influence from where you've travelled, time you've spent, people you've known, lives that you've lived can come through your music influence. Like from Johnny, from the school that he grew up in to many places that his parents have travelled, that 01:01:00makes sense for it to come through there. I think it's mostly in what you decide to wear. Maybe you don't need to wear that kimono, maybe you shouldn't wear that indigenous headdress, maybe you should think about some of those things. I think those are some of those really obvious ones that can be really hurtful to see. But there are a lot of cultural ties to different types of silhouettes and things like that that we don't know, so I think how offended you are from cultural appropriation to how you are traversing and going around that, depends on how much information you have. There's lots of different things. You might not be able to wear a ponytail or flip flops or things, depending on how far back you want to go.

LK: And we've talked a little bit about diversity in Burlesque. What's your experience been and what are your hopes for the future?

IE: My experience has been a lot of Burlesque, like a lot of other communities 01:02:00in the world, has been very, very white. And I am looking forward to seeing more people of color, more people that look like me, and given the same opportunities to express their art as freely as they want to. Often as a performer of color, there is tokenism. So, they need a performer of color to diversify their show, so that's why you have access to something. And I think that what I've seen that really hurt, is sometimes you don't... I have to be careful how I word this to make sure my point is coming across... Is that sometimes you can be given an opportunity that doesn't quite suit you. And they can be filling a quota and 01:03:00have you in a space that you're not ready to be in yet. Maybe you're a newer performer; maybe you haven't sharpened all of those edges yet. And you're not asked to be as great; you're not given the opportunity to push yourself to the greatest potential because they just need to fill the quota. If you're not around other amazing people of color that are pushing that bar up, then you don't know that you have to reach the same sometimes. Or you can be type cast and always be asked to be the savage, as the great Perle Noire would say. When you're asked to be a certain kind of performer, only do something that's really raunchy, only do something that's really funny, you're still not given the space. So, I would love for people of color to be able to bring whatever culture and be as glamorous, or as human and pedestrian as they wanted to, to be respected as much when people look not like us.

JN: Well said.

LK: Great. I've heard people in Burlesque say it empowers them. What's your take on that?

JN: It does. It does. I think that it's a beautiful way... I'll say personally that, though I am male and white and I've never been, my body has always been healthy in the sense that I've never been... Not healthy, back that up. Back up. Even though my body hasn't been obese, that I still have my own insecurities about my body. Even though what my body might look like is not somebody that 01:05:00might have body image issues, but everyone has them. We all have them. I will say that because of my upbringing, I spent a lot of time in clothing-optional spaces because my parents are both hippies and they're beautiful, spirited people who would lead workshops at spiritual centers. So, they would take me along as a little child, so I was around that very free energy. So, I haven't had as much as the nudity taboo as some people have had to overcome. And that's really a blessing for me, because I know a lot of people that even taking off their shirt is a really big deal in public and just being seen is a really, really big deal. And for those people, Burlesque shows them that they're beautiful and that they're celebrated, and that's an incredible gift. I just 01:06:00consider myself very lucky that I didn't have to attain that, that I've always had that. And I've never felt embarrassed to show my body.

From an empowerment side, it's given me a really special way to use my voice as a queer person and to share my voice to sing. It's given me a beautiful platform to sing, which I've always loved. I've always been a singer, but I knew that I wasn't supposed to go to Hollywood and be in LA and be a singer. That wasn't my goal, so I wasn't sure if I would be able to continue singing. And Burlesque has given me an opportunity to still use my voice, which is a huge blessing for me. So, that's been inspiring and uplifting for me. But I know especially so many of 01:07:00our beautiful, voluptuous, full-bodied ladies, that for them, now they're seeing that they're not the one performer of size in the whole show. That now it's very common to have a full range of body size, which is beautiful that that's really becoming the norm because that is the norm, bodies of all different shapes. You get to experience, you get to go to a show and not feel like, you don't have everyone coming up to you being like, "Oh, you're so brave." That is the most triggering thing that a person can hear. It's like, "No, I'm not. That's not what it's about." Burlesque is really expanding into that full-body acceptance, which is only going to get more and more like that.

IE: I agree.

JN: Yes.

LK: Okay. Similarly, people talk about how Burlesque can be a force for social change. What do you think about that?

IE: I can connect my answer to the last question. For this one, I think that part of the empowerment comes from the shedding of shame. We have so much shame associated with sharing our bodies, being seen, our imperfections being seen and witnessed. And then sensuality: having it, experiencing it, desiring it, and showing that. We have all of those things that we have to unpack, and religion plays a huge part in that. Culture plays a huge part in that. I know that 01:09:00especially a lot of people of color, especially a lot of women of color and non-binary femmes, really experience a lot of shame put on them from society. Part of the empowerment part of it is taking back ownership of you and your body and what you have to say, and the right to just be okay.

I take a huge inspiration from Johnny and in his family. So, though insecurity and shame is really different, they're connected but different, he's had to overcome his insecurities with his body, but he didn't have to overcome shame with feeling that it's okay to be in his body. That's something that's really beautiful and a lot of people are working through that. And how that kind of changes the entire world if there are more people of size, more femmes taking up 01:10:00space and saying, "Hey, I'm okay and I can do everything that I want. I can be smart and sexy and powerful." All of those things of what people think to be a classy, wholesome [laugh] woman, you can do all of it. And I think that that is really, really important of leading by example. Some people need to see it because they can't imagine it. So you can't tell them, you have to show them. And I think that that is just part of it for me, from what I'm baring witness to. And a lot of Burlesque performers are often activists and mentors and teachers, and there's people that have a lot to say and the stories of what they have learned they want to share with the world. And most of that is that you can be more than one side of yourself and that people are multi-faceted, and that 01:11:00that's okay.

LK: Great. Two more questions. What are the challenges facing Burlesque today, if any?

JN: Yeah. Like I said, there has been such a revival and a renaissance, but it still can be met with a lot of prejudice. Especially it can be seen, like Isaiah was saying, if you are a well-educated person, if you're well-spoken, well-mannered, classy individual, but you also happen to be a Burlesque performer, as well, like sometimes all of your accomplishments and all of the things that you hold dearest about yourself can be totally undermined because of how you show your body on stage. And that's a huge prejudice. And so, it's dismantling that misconception. And I think that it's not really a risk because 01:12:00people are still dong it. It's becoming more and more accepted and there's less and less prejudice about it, but it's still... It's amazing how I hear people talk. I observe and I'm also experiencing how people are talking to me, just as an artist who strips onstage, and how that changes so much of how they... They can't see you as intelligent. They can't see you as educated, classy, all of those things. And so that's...

IE: Powerful.

JN: It's not a risk. It's not something that's impeding people from still doing it, but it's something that needs to change for sure. Just dismantling that misconception.

IE: A huge one is that we have lost and are losing a lot of our legends...

LK: What do you mean Legends?

IE: Burlesque Legends, performers from the '70s and the '60s and some from the '50s. It's someone who has lived this life, that's in their 70s, can tell you a story that you couldn't imagine because it is life-lived. And so Marinka, which we've been so honored to be able to meet, she's an incredible, incredible legend from Brazil. She's just an incredible, incredible human and she's working towards writing a book and she's trying to get money and funding for that because her stories are so, so power. And just being able to sit with her for a 01:14:00moment and hear part of what she has lived in spaces and what was and wasn't open to her as being a woman of color that long ago, and how many doors she's knocked down.

And so I think that we're losing people that have done the work for us to experience any of the level of ease that we have. Not saying that it's easy. None of it has been easy. In my twelve years and his eight, none of it has been easy, but that it is, each generation get's a little bit easier than it was before. And I think that when losing those people and those stories, that we can get complacent, we can get entitled, and get naïve and ignorant because there's information that also dies when they die. We're honored to have some with us, 01:15:00many with us like the Toni Ellings and the Tempest Storm that performed at Star Theatre here in Portland. So there's amazing, amazing history with all these people and that is something that is really hard to see. And that is something that is challenging for sure.

LK: So, final question. What do you wish the general public would understand about Burlesque?

JN: Want me to go first? You can wrap it up.

IE: Sure.

JN: So... I always want people to... Well, is this about our Burlesque? Or just about, when they think of Burlesque, what comes to their heart or what comes to mind?

LK: Whichever you prefer.

JN: Yeah. First, I would love if people could think of Burlesque and not have it go to a sexual place right away. I would love for people to see it as the elevated art form that it is, and not just something that's sexy and fun, which it is also that, as well. It's all of those things, but I would love for it to get more credited as an elevated art from belonging in the ballet, in the opera. And that Burlesque is also such a beautiful elevated art from, as well. So, that's what I would love for people to think of when they think of Burlesque. Just as far as the audience after our show, I always want people to feel like they've had the most beautiful, spiritual hug and that they just feel cleansed 01:17:00and openhearted and passionate, that they can go forth and achieve anything that they want. That's what I want.

IE: That's perfect. That's good, thanks. Same. What I would love for people to understand and walk away with and think about when they think of Burlesque is... Not just when they think about Burlesque, but when they think of anyone within the sex industry, which we are a part of, we're connected to... I think that is a really jarring thing to hear, that phrasing for some people, but that anyone from escorts and prostitutes to exotic dancers, Burlesque performers, it keeps 01:18:00going... You are sharing and you are often looked down upon, and while you are providing a service for someone in any of the sensual realms, many people feel anything and in that way, that we're not just a bunch of broken people. I think that that's something that is really, really, really, important to me. With my friends, I'm a papa-bear kind of energy, I'm a nurturer, I'm the mother, father, other person. I just want all the people that I love to be met with love and respect. It's something that is really hard on my heart to know that someone is looking at someone I love as a lesser because they don't understand and they're not asking any questions. I've had to stand up for many people in my life 01:19:00because people have just thought that they're just a bunch of broken people. And that we are incredible artists and that there are broken people everywhere and in every art form. There's no more than there are anywhere else when it comes to Burlesque. I think that Burlesque for me, what I've seen is mostly people that are on a personal journey of self-discovery and empowerment and want to bring other people along with them. And we get a chance to do that with applause and good music and shiny costumes and great choreography and that's something that is really beautiful. And it's for everyone and everyone of all different walks of life. Every different age and culture can come to a Burlesque show and watch something that is really magical and can empower and entertain them. I think that I would love for more people to know that they can come and have an amazing experience, even in their 70s from their conservative background, and come and 01:20:00see the kind of talent that they want to see, that they just don't know already exists within this space.