Kay Toran Oral History Interview, May 9, 2019

RUTH KORNBERG: It is May 9. We are interviewing Kay Toran: K-a-y, Toran: T-o-r-a-n in Portland, Oregon. Kay, how are old are you?

KAY TORAN: [Laughs] I didn't know you were going to start with that. Okay, I'm sorry [laughs]. I'm 76 years of age.

RK: Okay. Now, we'll start the actual interviewing.

KT: Okay.

RK: Basically, what I want to do is, I will start with the beginning and we'll work up to now. So, would you like to start out with telling me about where you were born and where you grew up and go through where you lived at first, then went to school? Just kind of go step by step.

KT: Surely, yes. My pleasure. I was born in Birmingham, Alabama, to Ben and Mary Rose Steen. My maiden name is Steen. My parents migrated to the Northwest when I was 11 months of age and actually moved into Vancouver, Washington, in the Bagley Downs projects. My mom graduated from the Madam C.J. Walker School of Beauty in Birmingham, Alabama, so she immediately opened a salon in Vancouver. My dad worked as a welder in the Kaiser shipyard. After about 3 years we moved into Portland, Oregon, and I was raised in northeast Portland. My mom continued with her business, a beauty salon, and my dad, after he left the shipyard was working as a janitor with Federal Reserve Bank. My childhood was in northeast Portland, northeast Hancock, which was almost all Black, as a neighborhood. We had a couple of white families. It was one of those neighborhoods that everyone got along. Everyone knew each other and all the other parents on the block 00:01:00assumed some responsibility of raising all the kids on the block. It was a very close-knit community, close-knit neighborhood, probably made even closer because of my mom's business.

Many of the African American women came to my mom's beauty salon. It seemed to me we knew everyone and everyone knew us. We also had the majority of our neighborhood going to the same church, which was Mt. Olivet Baptist Church, which was a couple of blocks away. My childhood was just one that was happy. We probably we were like all kids, we got in enough trouble so that when we did get into trouble the neighbors would call our parents and say I'll tell you what Kay, Gloria, and Ben and Caroline were doing that they shouldn't have been doing. Like I said, there was this cooperative parenting going on in our neighborhood. I, at that time, really wanted to, in my adulthood in Los Angeles 00:02:00and Hollywood, because I wanted to be a dancer. So, my very best girlfriend, Darilynne and I, we used to choreograph dances and then call all the neighbors to sit on our porches as we danced up and down Hancock Street. My older sister participated probably for a couple of years and then she was done with us. But at the time she participated we called ourselves the Brooksadines, and we could tap dance and we could sing and we could perform the Hollywood musicals better than anybody in Hollywood. My childhood really was a happy childhood, and I had wonderful parents who were all very supportive of us as children. They came out of the south. They were very realistic about the fact that if we wanted to "be successful," and I'd put that in quotes, that we had to assume responsibility for our own destiny. Education was very important to them and to us. They really wanted to make sure that we were doing what we needed to do to learn, to be 00:03:00productive, and to be able to be successful in our school, in our education. I went to predominantly Black grade schools, first Holladay then Eliot Grade School in northeast Portland.

The first experience I really had with Whites in Portland was when I went to Washington High School, which was predominantly White. For whatever reason, while we were in high school, we really had a very supportive school environment. I don't recall any incidents that were related to race. We had a very successful football team at the time. That may have been part of it is that people wanted to know students from Washington High School, because we had a successful Portland interscholastic league. Also, I was very, at a very early age interested in governance. I was the student body president at the Eliot 00:04:00Grade School when I was in the 7th grade, and when I went to Washington High School, my brother had also been very interested in governance, but when I got to Washington High School I immediately wanted to "run for office" [air quotes gesture] we called it, so I wanted to be the class representative for the student government. I did not win, but it didn't deter me. My sophomore year I decided maybe the way to get into student governance was to try out for junior rally, and I tried out for junior rally. Again, I liked to dance and liked to sing. I tried out for being a member of the junior rally squad and won. That provided me with the kind of "popularity" [air quotes gesture] that allowed me at the end of my sophomore year to run for a position for student governance.

RK: Can you tell a little bit more about what student rally is?

KT: Right, the rally squad. Those were the cheerleaders. That's what we called them then, the cheerleaders that supported the junior varsity team at Washington 00:05:00High School. We would travel with the team to the games. We would be the ones leading the cheering and the support for the team of the students that were there. There were 6 of us, 6 members who were on the junior rally squad. That gave me a certain kind of visibility, so the next time that I ran for a governance position, I won. I really liked the idea of being able to think about how to make the school better. It just sort of was in my blood. From that position for the next 2 and a half years at Washington High School, every time I had an opportunity to run for one of the offices that was a part of the governing structure, I did. My senior year was one that was really a profound experience for me. I ran for president of the girl's league. That was a girl's governance organization at Washington High School, and I won. In talking to the 00:06:00dean, I guess we call him the dean of students, Mrs. Withicomb [shakes head], Ms. Withicomb wasn't married. Ms. Withicomb said you ought to try running for the president of the state girl's league. They have a position and what they do was plan a state conference at the end of the senior year.

At the end of my junior year I was nominated to run for that position, the "convention" [air quotes gesture], if you will. It's in Salem, Oregon. I prepared my speech. To this day, I don't know why I felt so uncomfortable doing this, but I had to give my speech to all the girls that were there from all over the state to elect a new president for girls league state, and I won. That told me a lot about, again, positioning yourself to be able to present your message well, being confident in presenting that message, and then saying what people 00:07:00thought. Ms. Withicomb said she was shocked. She drove us to Salem and she drove us home. She said, I'm just shocked, Kay, that you won. I had no idea you would win. She says, I just wanted you to have that experience. I'm not sure what really motivated her or why she didn't think I would win. I have no idea. But I will never forget that messaging on the way back to Portland, which kind of surprised me because she had encouraged me to run. If she really didn't think I would win, then why did she encourage me to run. Maybe it was just what she said. She wanted me to have that experience. Anyway, my high school years were really quite wonderful. I still have fond memories. I still, on occasion, have dinner with some of my classmates from Washington High School. I graduated in 1960, so I think that's pretty remarkable that we continue to have those relationships today.

RK: Those are relations with White people?

KT: Yes. Most of my African American friends do not live in Portland, even if they-well, we don't have a relationship, but I do with the White friends that stayed in Portland. Yeah, but they're White. Exactly. I've got one friend, African American male who I will see probably twice a year, where we'll have dinner together. Other than that, most of the close friends that I have that are African American do not live in Portland.

RK: Is there a reason for that?

KT: Probably. Do I know what that reason is? I think most of my friends left Portland shortly after high school. Most of them did not go directly to college. I did. I think probably they were looking for something different than what they had here in Portland. I felt that way when I was ready to go to college. I really wanted to go to Howard University. The reason I wanted to go to Howard 00:09:00University is that I really wanted an experience that was predominantly Black of young people pursuing their higher education. The reason I didn't do that-I applied-but the reason I didn't do it is my mom and dad really felt like I needed to have a "smaller" [air quote gesture] experience here before going off to a really big university. So, after conversation with them, and I think they had already made a decision, I made a decision to apply to the University of Portland and was admitted. A Catholic university, small university, faith-based university. My parents were deeply, deeply, deeply religious. This probably met all of the criteria they had for a "safe" [air quote gesture] environment for their daughter, who at that point in time really didn't, I didn't have a lot of broader experiences in the larger world.

Retrospectively, it was probably a really good decision that they pushed me that 00:10:00direction, encouraged me to go that direction. At the time, I said two years at the University of Portland, then I'm going to Howard. I really did feel like I wanted to have this experience that was predominantly African American, or Black is what we called it at the time. Again, the University of Portland, I had a wonderful experience. I had a wonderful time there. Again, I ran for "cheerleader" [air quote gesture] the moment I got on campus. I was a cheerleader my freshman year. I loved my classes. I loved the fact that I had to minor in philosophy, and that was the first time that I had an exposure to philosophy and any exposure to-most of my philosophy professors were priests-any exposure to being able to debate with somebody who was really well-versed and grounded in philosophy and religion. And they were very open to the debate. It wasn't like it was doctrinaire and I had to believe one thing or another. If I was going to raise a question, they really did expect me to have enough data and 00:11:00information and knowledge to be able to debate it. You couldn't debate from emotion. I loved that. I love that today. I love to sit down with someone and just really go, you know, really have that opportunity to go person to person about what we believe, what we think, and why we think it. I do that around politics today. My experience at the University of Portland was rich. It was challenging. It was fun. I felt academically successful when I graduated. I graduated within 4 years. I met my first husband there, and he drafted and he was stationed in Germany. So my first experience outside of Portland, Oregon, as a young adult was living in Germany with my husband. My agreement with him, and my parents, was that if I'm going to Germany to live then we must live off-base. 00:12:00I didn't want an American experience in Germany. We lived in Wortham, Germany for just under a year. Again, with one of the more challenging experiences, because I didn't know German.

By the time I got there, my husband Roy did speak probably conversational German which was helpful. Both of us were kind of struggling with the language. By living off-base, Herr and Frau Klein, our landlords, spoke very little English. The struggle was being able to communicate with them to get a rich experience about what Germany was going to be for us and what Germany had been for them. I'm real pleased to say after 4 or 5 months there and on occasion having coffee and pastry with them, we were able to ask some hard questions. The hardest question I remember asking the Kleins was how did Nazi Germany happen? There was 00:13:00a little stuttering, a little uncomfortableness with that, but Herr Klein said, you always trust your leaders but you shouldn't. I remember that to this day. It's a real powerful message. You always trust your leaders, but you shouldn't. That's all he would say. That's all they would talk about. I knew that Nazi Germany was very uncomfortable for most of the Germans then and now, because it could happen again is the fear that all of us have, that what was wrong with Germany then, that didn't stop a very ugly movement. If those barriers were not there then, are there not the barriers that need to be in place to prevent that from happening again? Wherever. Rwanda's probably a good example of that.

[Break in recording]

Okay, as I mentioned right after graduating from the University of Portland, I immediately moved to Germany, Wortham, Germany, and Roy and I lived there for 00:14:00just under a year before he was transferred back and then eventually discharged from the Army. He was a draftee. We decided to live in Portland, Oregon.

RK: I did want to ask you one question about Germany. Did you feel uncomfortable or whatever, as being an African American in Germany?

KT: No, I did not. I did not feel uncomfortable being in Wortham, and I think the reason for that is that the military base was there and there were a number of African American soldiers that were in the community. I think there was a receptivity to the African Americans because of the military, because there were lots of soldiers and it wasn't uncommon for the Germans to see us around. I developed a pretty wonderful close relationship with the Kleins and they were my anchor. They were my parents away from the United States of America. I think 00:15:00because there was a level of comfort with the Germans and the soldiers that were in the Army and the base and because we have this relationship with the Kleins, I didn't feel uncomfortable there. When we socialized, if we weren't in a restaurant in downtown Wortham, we were on the base, and so of course there was, like being in the United States of America and it was pretty supportive.

RK: Okay, so now you came back to Portland.

KT: Yes. I came back to Portland and made the decision with my husband that we were going to live in Portland. I wanted to mention that part of my reason for coming back to Portland is that I really wanted to be closer to my parents. I came from a family of 4 children. My brother was the oldest. I have an older sister and a younger sister, and of course my mom and my dad. We were very close-knit. I remember growing up my mom and dad, who were very adventurous, 00:16:00obviously they were adventurous to make the decision to move from Birmingham 3,000 miles away to the northwest. While we were growing up they always made a point of going back to Birmingham so that we would have some relationship with the family that they left behind. They also would travel by automobile to other places. We went to Mexico. We went to Canada. We went to California and other states within the United States of America. One of the things my mom used to say, not my dad but my mom used to say the reason we have four children is that we want you to live in the four corners of the world, and we will come to visit you. We want to see the four corners of the world. That's great, glamorous, and quite wonderful, yes. So, when my brother moved to New York City, the oldest of the four, my mom was so freaked out. How could he move so far away from home! It was almost hilarious, because on one conceptual level the idea of being able to travel abroad was exciting to them, but when the reality hit them that my 00:17:00brother was going to be 3,000 away from home, my mom, I don't think this was so true of my dad, but my mom was not real comfortable with it.

It was easy for me to make the decision to come back to Portland. Roy loved Portland. He was from New York City, my husband. He loved the whole concept of a smaller community where people knew each other, where people were supportive of each other. That was an easy decision to make. Portland was beginning to change. That was at the time when the Civil Rights Movement was starting. I was very active in the Civil Rights Movement from a Portland base, was very active about advocating for political and policy changes. It just seemed to me that when I was growing up when we saw all those businesses along northeast Broadway where there were no-colored-allowed signs in the windows that that had and needed to stop. Even in Germany, where they had gone through probably one of the worst histories in terms of the inability to live with people who were different, you 00:18:00didn't see those kinds of signage, you didn't see that kind of signage. You didn't see places where you were restricted to go. But here in Portland, along northeast Broadway, along Union Avenue, which is now Martin Luther King, there were establishments that you could not go into if you were "colored" [air quote gesture] was the language we used at the time. It was very easy for me, with my kind of government, I mean my activist nature to get involved in the Civil Rights Movement here in the United States of America.

RK: Can you tell us about that in detail?

KT: Sure I was part of the "they got" [air quote gesture] youth group that would organize and do the marches and the demonstrations in downtown Portland, and I was a part of that. I also was a part of writing letters. I also was a part of signing petitions. Also, you know, sending notes of encouragement to Dr. Martin Luther King. It was my way of lending my voice to a movement that I believe was 00:19:00very important, and I knew it was important to my parents who really did believe that the barriers that were in the place of African Americans, Black Americans, or colored, if you will, was racism. It wasn't that we couldn't learn. It wasn't that we didn't know how to live. It wasn't that we didn't aspire to a better life. It was one of the isms. One of the things my parents said to all four of us is that what you need to understand is that you cannot control anyone else, but you can control yourself. What they meant by that, is you invest in your education. You put the knowledge you need in your head. You will be able to figure out a way to navigate around those obstacles that you cannot control. You cannot control someone else's behavior, but you can certain control how you respond to it, which is the message that we heard day in and day out as 00:20:00children, either because of the way they lived their lives or because of a direct message. You control yourself. You control what you do with your life. You control your choices. That's what you can do to be in control of your destiny. They were adamant. That generation of adults were that way. You got the same message wherever you went from those other parents who came out of the south, the other parents who came from Birmingham, Alabama. It was the same thing. You can control yourself. You can't control someone else, so you invest in yourself. You invest in yourself and you will be able to control your destiny. It was probably cool to be in the Civil Rights Movement because everybody was. I think most of us were real serious about the movement because we knew that at the end of the day it had every possibility of helping to improve our lifestyle and allow doors to be opened that were closed to us in the past.

RK: Can you tell us some specific examples of demonstrating or particular activities, how you did it, what happened, what responses were around you?

KT: Yeah. Probably being able to describe the responses is a little challenging. I can remember when the March on Washington was happening in 1963. There was a similar kind of march in Portland. At that time, it was over on the Williams Avenue Park, the park that was between Williams Avenue and Vancouver. My memory is that there were several marches in downtown Portland. Some of them were not just focused on Civil Rights. Some of them were focused on protests against the war, the Vietnam War. You know, there'd be media coverage. You'd read about it in the newspaper, but it's hard for me to articulate because I'm not sure I do know what was the impact on people who were living here in Portland when they would either see it, hear it, or read it. I don't really know. All I know is as 00:22:00I got older when I had some other opportunities, for example to work for the governor of the state, I really felt that part of the reason that was an option for me was because of all the activity that had happened in the form of demonstrations, letter writing, being invited to be part of television shows where you talked about the fact that we really did want to see public accommodation for all people and that we really wanted equal opportunity, educational opportunities for all people. I knew there was a relationship, but I couldn't tell you exactly how people felt about it.

RK: So, continue, you were going to tell us some more about your childhood and...

KT: Right. I came from a family of 6-my mom and my dad and the four children. My brother was the oldest of the four and I had an older sister, who is 2 years 00:23:00older than I, and a younger sister who is four years younger than I. My brother is deceased. My mom and dad are deceased. So, it's now just the 3 of us. As I said, we were a close-knit family. I came from a highly religious family. Education was a high value. Excellence was a high value. Excellence in everything. Excellence in terms of how we approached our educational studies, how we dressed. My mom, because she was in the beauty business, whenever she would take the 3 daughters downtown we had to dress. I tell that to people now that when we would go downtown Portland, usually on the bus, my mom would say get your gloves. We would have our white gloves. We would have our dresses. We never wore pants, well, peddle-pushers we called them at the time in downtown Portland. We were always dressed. I always had this feeling like Mom wanted people to know that we were the daughters of Mrs. Steen, the beauty salon owner. 00:24:00That was true with all of the families that were in our neighborhood. By today's standards, it was a sophisticated neighborhood. You dressed to go to church. You dressed to go to downtown Portland. You dressed to go to school. The casualness came when you were playing on the weekend. That was how we were raised. We were raised width manners and to be polite. To this day, people in my generation would never use profanity in front of somebody older, if they use it at all. That was because it was so prohibited in terms of how you relate to each other and how you relate to older people and older people. Older people, I think, were probably were real true role models in terms of how to live your life and how to be who they thought we needed to be. It was a supportive and cohesive neighborhood that I grew up in. I think those values, I think how we lived our 00:25:00lives dictate how I behave today, how I treat people in the workforce, how I treat people that I work with and certainly how I have tried to raise my children.

RK: I was going to ask you, then, to go, in terms of raising your children to describe more about that linkage, and what system did you use in raising your children?

KT: Right, again, it was modeling for one but certainly teaching them that respect of others and self was absolutely key if you were to be successful in this world. Respect of yourself by making sure that you assume responsibility for educating yourself, not only formally in public education but also in terms of your own personal choices, like making sure that you are a reader, making sure that you understand the value and the contribution the library will have for you. Certainly treating your friends with respect, absolutely essential 00:26:00treating adults and older people with respect. That was just a bottom line in our family and bottom line with my children. They're that way today. My son and my daughter are extraordinarily respectful people. They have their aspirations, like any other young person. They've had their ups and their downs, but they've always been focused in terms of making sure that they were living their lives in such a way that they could take care of themselves, that they could take care of their children, and that they took care and had respect for their fellow members of our society. I taught them to be donors on some level, whether it was formally as making a donation to an organization or making a contribution through volunteerism. One of the things that really impressed me about my son is that, I don't know if he still does this, but up until a few years ago Christmas 00:27:00for him meant going downtown and volunteering for someone someplace before you had Christmas dinner. He did that not because I encouraged him to do it or told him to do it or suggested that he do it. He just figured it that out on his own is that Christmas was just more than gift giving. I think that really comes, not so much from me, as it was from my parents who really believed that if you were successful in life, successful on any level, you had an obligation to give back. Certainly they did. They were missionaries.

We would, this is a great story to share, because it really is probably the reason why I'm a professional social worker today. One Sunday out of every month my mom and my dad would drive to Salem with the four kids in the car, our Nash. Nobody had a Nash in the United States of America except the Steen family [laughs]. I had never heard of this car before until my dad bought it. We didn't have a car most of my childhood. When he finally bought a car he bought a Nash Ambassador. They would drive to Salem one Sunday out of every month. The reason 00:28:00they would do that, with us in the backseat, was because first they didn't believe in babysitters for us. Perhaps they couldn't afford it. Don't know. But we would drive to Salem and what would my mom and dad would say is if you stay in the car while we take care of our missionary work, we promise you could have a chili hot dog on highway 99 on the way back to Portland. What they would do, is my dad would go to the Oregon State Penitentiary to meet with inmates that had come out of northeast Portland, that had come out of our neighborhood, that had come from some family that he knew. He would go to meet with them, to talk with them, encourage them to learn a skill or a craft while they were in jail and that would make them much more employable when they got out. My mom would go to the Oregon State Mental Hospital with the same agenda. She would want to meet with people who came out of our community, who were in the mental hospital that 00:29:00may not have family that was able to visit them and meet with them. My mom probably was a natural born social worker, because what she said is that when people, I'm using my language now, when people fall off track, oftentimes it's because they don't have close family around them.

Her reason for going to the Oregon State Mental Hospital and the reason for my dad going to the Oregon State Penitentiary is they were trying to connect them with family. I do know that my dad hired one or two that came out that had taken barbering lessons while they were on the inside. He hired them to be barbers for him when they came into Portland. My mom didn't hire anybody that I'm aware of as a beautician, too, that came out of the mental hospital, but I do know Mildred had been discharged, and Mildred lived with us. Mildred was a young woman. I remember my mom and dad sitting at the dining room table talking about 00:30:00Mildred and the conditions in which they discharged her to their care. It was that she would have to live with us. So, I think probably she did for a couple months, maybe longer. My memory is that probably it was just a couple of months, and then my mom bought a train ticket and she says we're going to send Mildred back home to her family because Mildred will be just fine when she gets back home with her family. My dad said do you think anybody will challenge that? She says, I don't know, but Mildred will go home to her family. So, we went to the train station. Mildred got on the train and Mildred went to, I think it was Tennessee, but I can't remember for sure. I don't know that my mom or dad ever heard from Mildred again. They may have. I just don't know. It was so clear to me that Mom knew the importance of family, that family is what you need most often to support you as you're growing up, as you are making adult decisions, and when you have challenges or when you have trouble, it's family that's 00:31:00needed. We see that in our work all the time, that if we can reconnect individuals who have fallen off track with family, with some personal relationship, with a neighborhood that's supportive, they do just fine moving on with their lives. Mom fundamentally knew that.

RK: Was she African American?

KT: Yeah, my parents were African American.

RK: No, I mean the-

KT: Oh, Mildred, yes she was African American. Yes, right. Right.

RK: You said your father was a barber. When did he become a barber?

KT: Right. Mom opened her salon when she moved to Portland in the basement of our home. They actually purchased their first home that we lived in on Northeast Hancock. She opened up a salon. My dad was working at a janitor at Federal Reserve Bank. They bought some land two properties away from our house, which was completely vacant. They bought the land, and where the dream of Ben and Mary 00:32:00Rose Steen became a reality. They decided what they would do on that land is build a building that would house Steen's Beauty Salon and Barber Shop. They built that building and it opened in 1952. It was the first African owned business, African American owned business that was built form the ground up. It's still in business today. My nephew, my sister's daughter, now is the manager of that business. It is thriving and, as I said it's the oldest African American owned business in the state of Oregon.

RK: And it's still there.

KT: It's still there.

RK: As a salon, a hair salon.

KT: A beauty salon and barber shop.

RK: A beauty salon and barber shop.

KT: Right.

RK: Do you have any idea, I mean it takes a lot of money to be able to do that. Do you have any idea how they were able to accumulate the precepts and get loans 00:33:00or what have you?

KT: One of the things that was true with the high school that my parents went to in Birmingham, Alabama, is that they did teach self-sufficiency. They did teach all of those financial and accounting skills that you need if you're going to have your own business. So, my dad knew that. My dad and mom they also saved money. They understood the value of saving money and that would allow you opportunity to do things that you might not do if you did not have cash accumulated. But you're right. It requires more than a savings account to open up a business. My dad who preached from the time I can remember have excellent credit, save some of the money that you get every week. We had to save our "allowance" [air quote gesture]. We had to go to the bank. We had a passbook account, all four of us, each of us. When he drew the blueprint for the building, what did he do? He did like most people who aspired to own their own business, he went to the bank. He went to the bank that he had banked at from 00:34:00the time that he was in Portland, Oregon, and applied for a loan. That's when he found out that it was illegal to loan money to Blacks, so my dad could not get a loan from the bank. My dad had become aware of a loan company on Union Avenue, and he had seen an ad in a newspaper. My dad worked part time as a barber at another barber shop. He decided that he would approach them and see whether or not they would consider giving him a loan. He applied for a loan. The loan officer had this long conversation with him. Why do you want to do that? You're going to put your family at risk? Da, da, da, da, da. But they loaned him the money.

One of the reasons that the loan officer loaned him the money is that, according to my dad, he said to my dad, I can tell what's motivating you is that you want a better future for your children. In our culture, the Jewish culture, the 00:36:0000:35:00children are the highest value. He said, everything about your history tells me you're going to pay this loan back, so I'm loaning you the money. You have a dream. Your dream is for your kids, and I want you to be able to do that. My dad paid off that loan in less time than required. When he paid it off, the officer said the same thing when he made the loan. He said, I knew you were going to be successful, because you were doing it because of your children. In the Jewish culture, you are successful because you care about your children. There was this close relationship that my parents always had about Jewish people helping out Black people, that Jewish people understood the pain and suffering that comes from being treated differently for accidental characteristics, for something that you don't control. We always had these positive messages about the Jewish culture and the alignment of Jewish values with African American values and that 00:37:00is how my dad was able to build that building. He had the confidence and the financial resources that came from that loan company on Union Avenue that was Jewish owned and it was a Jewish loan officer who understood what my mom and my dad were trying to accomplish.

RK: So, then you went to, so he had been a janitor, so he went to a special barber school?

KT: Yes.

RK: How did that work out?

KT: Well, he went to barber school here in Oregon, and you have to be licensed as a barber or a beautician to be able to even practice as a barber or a beautician and you need to have that license to open up a business. He went to school by day, a janitor by night, got his license, was able to get the loan, built the building, and then he and my mom had that business forevermore.

RK: With the barber school, is there a different school for African Americans 00:38:00than for White?

KT: [Shakes head].

RK: Or do you learn to do all kinds of hair?

KT: That's really a good question. No, there is not a separate school for African American hair and there's not a special teaching for African American hair, so my dad had to practice on and know how to cut White hair, even though he stated the customers were all Black. My mom, of course, she had her teaching in Birmingham, so she knew how to teach Black hair. I don't know that she had to take a special exam here in Portland. She had her license from Birmingham, Alabama, and I have her copies of the license that she got here in Oregon. The first one she got in Oregon was in 1947 and I just, I'm going through old photos and old records, and I have a copy of that. I don't think she had to do anything other than present her license that came out of Birmingham, Alabama. It probably was a little more lax than it would be today. But my dad, he had to not only 00:39:00take a course of study but he also had to pass the exam here in Oregon to become a licensed barber. To finish that story, you could not have a Black customer as the customer that you use for your exam. You had to have a White customer. He had to perfect knowing how to cut hair of White people, like I said, even though he was cutting the hair of Black people, which is very different. It's not the same.

RK: Was it hard for him to learn to do the Black hair.

KT: No. No. No, you know he worked in a Black barber shop and I'm sure the deal was we will teach each other how to make sure we're doing hair well and know exactly what we need to do, but we also know that the only way we can get here with a license is for all of us to know how to cut White hair. I'm sure there was that camaraderie that happens when you're working close proximity to people. 00:40:00They helped out each other. They made it work.

RK: Then you came back from Germany with your husband, and what did you do?

KT: For the first few months, I was a stay-at-home mom. I delivered my child 3 months after I got back from Europe. I was a stay-at-home mom. Then when I decided to go back to work, I decided I would begin to use the knowledge I had gained as a student at the University of Portland. My major was sociology and my minor was psychology-I had a double minor in psychology and philosophy. The first job that I applied for was as a caseworker with public welfare. I got the job. That was an interesting experience for me, because I wasn't really sure what I was going to be doing when I was hired as a caseworker, but once I realized what I was required to do, the job duties and responsibilities, I was 00:41:00not okay with it. The primary responsibility was determining eligibility for public assistance and then making sure you managed and monitor those grants that were awarded to those families. It seemed to me that that was simply not going to help one mom, one family go on with her life. It was not going to help her ever become trained and employed. It was not going to help her be able to leave that lifestyle behind and go on with a life that would provide her with considerably more independence. I did that for about a year, and then I applied for another job as director of special services for the girl scouts, as they were rethinking how they were going to do scouting in the inner city. I was the director that looked at how to develop new badges, requirements for badges, how to develop just a whole new kind of scouting that would be much more interesting 00:42:00to girls that came from the inner city. Again, I wasn't real satisfied with that particular job, and I applied to go to the school of social work at Portland State University. I was admitted. Once there, I knew clearly what I wanted to do with my interest in sociology and social work. That was policy. I really felt like if you put your time, energy, and efforts into policy development, advocacy for policy, that you would have much more of an impact on the lives of people we were serving than if you were providing direct services. Now, I know direct services are needed. We have case managers in my organization, Volunteers of America, that deliver direct services and they're excellent at it. I think they're also individuals that are committed to social work that understand that policy dictates the kind of success you can achieve with many individuals and 00:43:00with my families. My concentration as a graduate student of social work was in management. They call it public administration. I immediately went into a management position after getting my master's degree. I taught in the graduate school of social work for several years and then started my ascent up the management ladder in social work.

RK: Where did you teach?

KT: At the graduate school of social work at Portland State University. After I left that position, I was a branch manager for a public welfare office where, again, I began to hone not only my skills but my interest in knowing the impact that policy would have on the families that we were serving. I wasn't in that position a very long time when I applied for and was hired as the deputy 00:44:00director of field operations for public welfare, is what we called it at the time. I was in that position for about 2 years when I was recruited by Governor Victor Atiyeh to apply for the director of affirmative action for the state of Oregon. I applied for that position and was hired and really, that sort of changed the trajectory for my career in a very significant way.

RK: Before you continue, so in that process it sounds like it was easy for you to get hired. Were there obstacles or no obstacles? What made it possible for you to be able to go up that ladder so quickly?

KT: It's a good question. I take what I do, no matter what it is, very seriously. I guess the best way I can answer that is that I was sure that I would be competitive. I have as a personal professional value excellence and try 00:45:00to live that and try to adhere to it. In the jobs, I've tried to demonstrate that and I think as a consequence of it I may have brought attention to my performance in what I was doing. In most of the positions that I have ever been hired into, I've been recruited. Someone recruited me to look into the position. Most of the time I have said no and then they come back.

RK: Why?

KT: I think it's because I like to believe I'm in charge of making decisions about what's best for me and what should be next for me. Maybe life is that way. Maybe we're not as in charge as we think, but when I took the position as assistant professor at the graduate school of social work, the dean himself 00:46:00reached out and said I want you to take this position. I want you to look at this position. At the time we were having that conversation, I didn't think I was ready, or quite frankly qualified, to be an assistant professor in the school of social work. We got into this dialogue of me saying no and him saying yes, and finally the way we stopped it was I said, okay, what I'll do, if you fill that position the same way as you do any other position in the graduate school of social work, i.e., you do a national search, I'll apply. Then let the chips fall where they may. He did just that. I applied. Three months later I was one of two finalists. So, I think the reason why he may have been looking at me is that he got some input, some information, some encouragement from others that maybe he should look at me as joining the faculty at the school of social work. 00:47:00I've not have that conversation with him. He just said there was a lot of support for my application from not only the faculty but students. Again, when I was asked to apply for a position in the management track of public welfare going up that trajectory, again, I got recruited by a hiring manager who said we'd like for you to consider coming into applied practice and not just be teaching at the school of social work. So, I applied. I applied for every position I've ever been hired into. I don't know how to answer your question. Were there obstacles? If there were, there weren't obstacles that caused me to not want to pursue it. I just tried to do the best, not only in the process of applying but also in performing those duties. I try to be the very best that I possibly can, and really challenge any of my director supervisors if I'm not 00:48:00performing as you believe I should. Let's have that conversation, because I don't want to do a poor job. I'm not uncomfortable moving on. I really do work very hard at trying to be the best that I possibly can doing what I do.

RK: I believe that you were now teaching social work in the graduate school.

KT: Right.

RK: Social work. So, keep going.

KT: Okay, well. I had applied for and been hired into two other positions in public, like I said, public welfare, that's what we called it at the time, when I got recruited to apply for the director of affirmative action for Governor Victor Atiyeh. I was hired into that position in 1979 and, again, it was taking 00:49:00me out of my comfort level because I was, and am, a social worker and I have never been dedicated to a civil rights program. Affirmative action is a civil rights program and it was the top leadership position in the state of Oregon. When I had my interview with Governor Atiyeh, who was republican, at the time had the reputation of being the most conservative republican in the state of Oregon. I have always been center of left in terms of my politics and how I view the world and how I view the necessary decision making that goes along with that, but when he interviewed me, at the end of the interview, I asked him this one question. I said, what do you want to accomplish with this position called director of affirmative action? What do you see your role as governor? He looked at me directly. He said, I want to hire people who look just like you, finger pointed at me. I want to hire people just like you in the top levels of state 00:50:00government. I don't know how to do that, so I need to have a partner to help me move that agenda. I thought that was pretty impressive, not only that he could articulate it as clearly as he did, but that he had the passion to do that.

I worked for Governor Atiyeh for 7 and a half years. I am pleased and honored to say that we had some of the best outcomes in terms of hiring people at the top levels of state government who look just like me. That included women. It included Native American. I'm going to give you some statistics. We had a Native American who was head of the department of corrections while Governor Atiyeh was in his leadership role. We had an African American that was head of vocational rehabilitation. We had an African American who was hired away from a fully tenured position at Harvard law school, full professor, to be the dean of the school of law at the University of Oregon. We had African American head of the 00:51:00Oregon State parole board. We had the first woman, White woman, who was head of a major department in state government, the department of general services. There was just position after position after position over that 7 and a half year that accomplished exactly what that vision was. Another demonstration, if you've got clear vision of what you want to accomplish, secondly, you pull the necessary resources, including human resources, to help you achieve that vision and you stay committed emotionally and practically speaking you can get the job done. One of the things that motivated Governor Atiyeh very early on as governor was there was a cross burning in Milwaukee, Oregon. A Black family who had moved there and there was a cross burning, just sort of a nasty thing to happen to a 00:52:00young couple with young children. Governor Atiyeh was so disturbed by that, he did two things, he said this will not represent my administration. This will not happen without my voice condemning it while I'm governor of this state. Secondly, I am going to introduce legislation that makes cross burning or activities like that a class C felony. We don't today see too many elected officials go out front and make a statement that this is unacceptable behavior and I'm going to do something about it. That was the environment in which I was able to do the job of director of affirmative action. A governor who was passionate. A governor who was courageous and a governor who mobilized the state to move in a certain direction. That's what we need all of the time until we get past this unfortunate ugly behavior called whatever the ism is, whether it's racism or discrimination against the disabled, or whatever, sexism. We need that 00:53:00voice, that voice that says this is unacceptable and we're going to do something about it.

RK: Then, as we're now doing your job history, so then after that 7 years what did you do?

KT: Obviously, governors in Oregon are term limited, so part of the reason that I was there for 7 and a half years is Governor Atiyeh could not run for reelection again.

RK: What year was that?

KT: Let's see, that would have been '83, 1983. I had some choices to make, like what am I going to do next? I wasn't real sure. I had not really thought it through. I thought about trying to move into the private sector again in 00:54:00affirmative action or in human resources. But a mentor of mine in state government said you've got two strikes against you right now. One is that affirmative action is seen as a "soft area of responsibility" [air quote gesture], and it may not translate well from government to the private sector. Secondly, you also have a social work degree, you have a master's in social work which is seen as a "soft degree" [air quote gesture] for a management position, upper management position in state government. He said, you're going to need another kind of experience to help propel you to where you want to be. He actually suggested I apply for a job which was administrator of the state's purchasing division. He said, why don't you apply for that and see if that's something that the director will want to hire you into and, secondly, a job you might find some satisfaction in doing for this reason-it provides you with an 00:55:00opportunity to be responsible for something that affected all of state government. Well, I'm not this person who ever thought about being a purchasing administrator. But I applied and I got hired.

It was really genius on the part of my mentor to suggest that I do that, because the person that hired me was the woman who was director of the largest department, second largest department in state government, department of general services. She hired me and I was in that position for almost 3 years and it gave me an opportunity to really get a sense of the business side of state government. It also gave me an opportunity to interact with most of the department directors. It gave me an opportunity to get to know the chancellor in the department of higher education. It was a rich rounding experience. From that position, the director of the department of children services reached out to me and said I'd like you to consider a management position in children services 00:56:00division. He says, I've been watching you when you were in the governor's office. Certainly, we had to interact with you when you were making, helping us make major purchases for their division. Would you give it some consideration? I applied, was hired to what was equivalent to a middle management position in the department of children services. I was in that position for 6 months when I was promoted to the deputy administrator for Multnomah County, one of the larger responsibilities within children services. I was in that position for 2 years when I was recruited to apply for the directorship of the department of children services. I did. I was hired. On one level, there was probably was a naiveté in terms of what I was getting into. That's a tough job. Secondly, it really did give me an opportunity to think through how do you bring resources together to address an organization that's troubled, that's bordering on dysfunction, that 00:57:00has some highly courageous, wonderful people working for it. What do you need to do in a leadership role to do that kind of changes that are required to move that agency in the right direction? It was a wonderful experience. I was there for, how many years was it? I guess 6 and a half years, almost 7 years.

RK: What was wrong and what did you want to change it to?

KT: Right. Child welfare, statutorily, is responsible for children who are abused and neglected. It's the kind of responsibility where on any one day you're going to have people who support you and you can have people who are absolutely against the decision making that is required when you are trying to make sure that children are safe. There are lots of challenges, and there have been a lot of challenges. Prior to my being hired into that leadership role, it 00:58:00was under-resourced. There were a lack of caseworkers that were needed to be able to do that job well. There was a lack of commitment to resourcing training. There were just a lot of challenges. My way of approaching that was to organize a statewide committee along with representatives from the juvenile rights project which had sent an intent to sue letter to the department of justice. We decided let's have a statewide committee that develops a strategic plan on how to address each one of those challenges and barriers that existed within the agency. We got statewide input. It was a successful plan development. The legislature not only supported the plan, but the legislature also funded the plan. It was more than I could ever have hoped for, but it was more than hope. 00:59:00It was concerted effort by many, many capable professionals who said let's invest in this division, in this work in such a way that we can begin to turn it around. We also had complete support of the governor of the state to do this.

[Break in recording].

RK: So, we were, where were we?

KT: I think we had just kind of talked about my leadership at department of general services for the state of Oregon.

RK: Okay. Continue from there as you go up with your professional life.

KT: Sure. I was in that position of leadership with child welfare for 6 and a half years when the legislature approved the budget that we had recommended, which resulted in a 25% increase in the operating budget for our organization and also the strategic plan that we had worked on for a couple of years. I felt 01:00:00it was then time for me to move on and allow the governor to hire a manager to come in and implement the changes that we had approved and I was going to spend some time taking a year off work to write my memoir. I have this dream to share our life story, my story, my parents' story, our family's story, with the broader public. However, that dream only lasted for about 2 months when a search firm reached out and asked me to apply for the presidency position for Volunteers of America.

RK: You were how old at that time?

KT: Oh, geeze. Well, I'll answer that this way, I've been there 20 years. Okay? So, that would make me what 56 at the time? Yeah. I didn't want to take on that responsibility, but decided after several conversations with the firm and also 01:01:00the board and the subcommittee of the board that I would apply. As a consequence of applying, I was hired into the position with the plan to stay maybe 5 years to get them at a place where they could move on and continue to grow the organization. But I became so addicted to the work that we were doing and the populations that we were serving and the opportunity again for advocacy to change that I am still there. I will have been there 20 years in July in that leadership role. I have thoroughly, really been satisfied with being a part of that organization.

RK: Can you tell us more about that organization, the Volunteers of America?

KT: That's correct. The Volunteers of America Oregon. I am the leader of the Oregon affiliate. We're a broad based human service, health and human service organization, so we provide social services in early childhood to high-risk 01:02:00families that are at risk of abuse and neglect. We also have a domestic violence solutions program for women who have made the decision to move out of a home where there has been violence and to move on with their lives and provide a safe environment for themselves and their children. However, the lion's share of our responsibility is in addiction treatment. We have a residential treatment program for men and one for women, but we also do outpatient addiction mental health treatment. The population that we serve is some of the highest risk individuals in our community. They've all touched the criminal justice system. Our efforts are to support them as they reenter into our community, support them in such a way that they get their lives back on track. They're able to reconnect, reunite with their families. We're able to help them get employment and housing and to move on making a contribution in our community. Then on the 01:03:00backend of the age continuum, we also provide adult day services to the frail elderly. We do that in part in a partnership with Providence health and services. We serve the full spectrum of children and families through Volunteers of America. Just a real quick story about why we call ourselves Volunteers of America, is that we're 123 years old. Not only in Portland, but nationwide, and when we were founded we were founded by the son of a founder of Salvation Army. That son, along with his brother, came to this continent to replicate Salvation Army. Our founder made the decision that it was in their best interest, him and his wife's interest, to start a new organization here in the United States of America. Making that decision meant that he lost the revenue that was coming out of London. They had to start the organization with a cadre of volunteers. So, they named it Volunteers of America, incorporated in the state of New York, 123 01:04:00years ago. We had a Salvation Army affiliate here in Oregon and that affiliate made the decision to follow Volunteers of America. That's the reason why we are the age that we are and doing what we're doing today. Today, I have about 320 professionals that provide services, paid professionals that provide services through Volunteers of America. So, we march on.

There was something else you asked me to speak to. I have been doing professional social work at the leadership level now for 20 years, and one of the things I love about my role is that we have been in the vanguard of advocating for changes in our criminal justice system, a change that is absolutely essential if we're going to be responding to the needs of individuals 01:05:00in the most effective way, also redirecting financial resources away from the system where we're not getting the return on investment, and actually just become a much more humane community. Volunteers of America has been focused on trying to develop and provide reentry services to the population that gets released from prison or incarceration. We also know that our choices in the reentry program are going to help people be successful with their release from prison, with their release from incarceration. The public policy advocacy is much more pronounced and much more possible from this position than it was when I was in state government. You have a lot more flexibility in a non-profit. You have a lot more personal advocacy that comes from your board of directors and you can also organize community support in a much more effective way from a 01:06:00nonprofit. I've really enjoyed every minute of that.

RK: Can you tell a bit more about that, what you've actually done with some specific examples, whether it's community organization or advocacy with the government?

KT: Sure, about 18 years ago we actually designed support service for individuals that were being released after Measure XI crimes. Measure XI in Oregon is one strike you're out. There was no plan once the voters voted that into law. Once you serve your time, then what? So, we reached out to several provider communities. We worked with Multnomah County government and said let's develop a response to that. Let's develop a program that actually caters to those individuals that are being released after Measure XI crime.

RK: Explain again what Measure XI crime is?

KT: Measure XI, to simplify it, is one strike you're out. There's certain felonies that if they are committed and you are convicted you're immediately incarcerated. Prior to Measure XI judges were able to take background and history into consideration. There are some extenuating circumstances sometimes that makes long sentence not in the best interest of an individual. With Measure XI, the judge doesn't have that flexibility. In other words, what Measure XI did when the voters voted that into law was take discretion away from the judges. So, you commit a certain crime and you're convicted of that crime you're going to serve 5 years. There is no option there. I believe our criminal justice system needs to be more humane than that. There are always other circumstances that you need to take into consideration when you're looking at one's behavior and one's criminal background, criminal offense. Volunteers of America Oregon 01:08:00made a decision that we would develop a program that would respond to those individuals that had been convicted of a Measure XI crime by allowing them into a supportive service wraparound program, which we call Community Partners Reinvestment. We relied on community partners. We said it was a reinvestment in these individuals and their lives. It was our way of helping them get reconnected with their family, reconnected with their children, and really make every effort to go on with their lives in a successful way. We started that program. It was supported by foundations outside of the state of Oregon. It was supported by foundations in the state of Oregon and also by the department of corrections and the department of community justice from Multnomah County. We 01:09:00need to do more in criminal justice reform. This ought to be one of the campaigns that everybody embraces. If we do this smart, we not only are responding better to the lives that are affected by these kinds of decisions but we also are in a position to redirect dollars to where we really need it, and that's in public education. Every dollar that goes into corrections we have to ask ourselves is that the best way to spend that dollar or should we be looking at diversion. Should we be looking at supportive programs once people are released, individuals are released from prison? Are those dollars better spent there or are they better spent in public education. It's a conversation that I think our public really needs to have, and we have not had in the state of Oregon in a very effective way. That's one of the ways that Volunteers of America has been responsive and trying to be on the front end of reform and of change, social change.

We really need to have a conversation about what's happening in the world of addiction, with the overuse, misuse of drugs in our society. We should have had a conversation about the decriminalization of marijuana. I can argue both sides of that. I need to be real honest about that. On one side, I think people have been incarcerated for drug offenses that should not have been incarcerated. By the same token, I talk to individuals who are in a drug treatment program and some of them will say I think marijuana is a gateway drug. You have both sides of that issue. That is why a public conversation needs to continue to be ongoing about what's the best way to respond to an issue that everybody cares about, because it's going to affect us one way or the other. There's no right or wrong answer, but let's be informed about the decisions that we make and understand what the consequences might be when we make those decisions.

RK: You're still doing this work and you're 76 years old, are you ever going to retire?

KT: I will change what I'm doing. I don't even like the term retirement. I am a person who really gets a lot of joy out of being engaged and by being involved in the lives of my family, the lives of my children, the lives of my grandchildren, but also the larger community. I really just get joy out of doing that, so I will change what I'm doing. I won't always be the leader of Volunteers of America Oregon. But retirement is not in my lexicon. I will do something else. Right now I'm pretty clear something else will be really focusing on completing my memoir and getting that out and published and in the hands of people who might be able to first, just appreciate the story, but 01:12:00secondly maybe learn something from some of the experiences that I have had.

RK: Now let's go back a little bit more to your personal life.

KT: Yes.

RK: We were in when you came back to Portland from Germany with your husband you had a baby. Tell us a little bit about what was going on in your family, how you had a baby and trying to work, etc.

KT: Probably just picking up after becoming a mom and having the responsibility of trying to determine how I'm going to educate my own daughter. I had some challenges about what was happening in the educational system at the time. I was able to, along with my husband, I was able to have my daughter go to a 01:13:00Montessori school. My daughter was able to read at age 3 and age 4, probably more like 3. She read everything. I wanted to make sure when she went into the first grade that her growth and development educationally would continue and that would be an experience that was enhanced by the choice of the schools she attended. I had an interesting experience, because when she went to the first grade, and this was public school and public school here in Portland, the first grade teacher had a side conversation with me on parent teacher night. What she said to me, this was like week 2 maybe, she said your daughter knows all I'm supposed to teach her already, which I thought was astounding. I was surprised, maybe disappointed, but also I appreciated that she had the confidence and the courage to say that to me. What she was saying is that maybe you ought to 01:14:00consider some other school options for your daughter. She didn't say that, but that was the suggestion, so I did. My daughter was able to go to a private school after that. I decided I would take heed. I would pay attention to what the teacher was sharing with me. That very next week did some research and then made a decision that she would move from the school she was in and go to a private school.

My daughter went to 12 years of private education here in Portland. Shortly after she started to school was when I went through a divorce and then several years after that I remarried and then had another child, my son. Because of my daughter being in a private school, my son also went to a private school. My second husband was a lawyer here in Portland, one of the early African American lawyers here in the state of Oregon at a successful practice. We had a 01:15:00successful family for several years. We lived here with my kids going on and doing well in their education and I'm doing well in my career, and to a certain point did well in our marriage. I'm not going to go into detail about what didn't go right, but it didn't. So, after a period of time I was divorced and a single mom. Because of the position that I was in, the job that I had specifically, I was probably in a much better opportunity to manage that than some women are who are questioning or have to question what kind of income they have.

RK: What job was it at that time when you got divorced then the second time, which of your jobs was it, do you remember?

KT: Yeah, I was head of department of children services...

RK: Okay.

KT: ...state agency, right. They were able to, my kids, my son and my daughter, 01:16:00they were able to go on through, what I call, lower education and have a successful experience and then go off to college. My daughter went east to college, and my son, he went to southeast to college. They both lived on the east coast for several years before coming back to Portland, and I have made this commitment to them that I will not tell their story, so much about their lives will have to be for them to tell. I think probably the reason why I can feel the way that I feel about both marriages and about my private life is that unlike many women, I was in much more control over the decisions that I make about where I was working, what I did. I did not have to move out of my home after the divorce. I was able to stay here. I can't say that mine was a typical 01:17:00single woman experience.

RK: Now tell us about these different places that you did live in Portland and the stories of how you found the places and so on.

KT: Right. I grew up in northeast Portland. Then when I was 14 my parents moved to Mount Tabor. Up until the time I left home after college, I lived in southeast Portland. My parents made a calculated decision that they wanted to live there rather than in the home that we were raised in primarily because it was a better house, and even though there were some challenges at the time, when they made the decision to move to Mount Tabor, African American families lived in a very segregated part of northeast Portland. It was not typical for Black families to move out of that area, which was basically the Willamette River 01:18:00probably as far east as maybe 14th, maybe 21st from Broadway to the river, the Columbia River. That basically was where most Black people lived in Portland, Oregon. To move outside of that, presented its challenges. It presented probably some challenges to my parents that they never talked about. We found out, we, my siblings and I, found out many years later there was strong opposition from some of the families in Mount Tabor for my family moving there. if my parents knew any of that, they didn't share it with us. I was "popular" [air quote gesture], in quotes, in high school, so I didn't feel it in high school.

Now, my younger sister, who was in grade school, elementary school at the time, she said one of her teachers did say to her, just a child, that you know there was a strong opposition to your family moving into the community. We talk about 01:19:00that now. We say, how interesting that the teacher felt comfortable saying that to a child, and then, secondly, we really would like to know what he experienced, or what he heard, what he knew. But relatively peaceful existence in Mount Tabor. Then we go our separate ways. I got to the University of Portland, Europe, then back here lived always in northeast Portland and when John and I married, shortly after I married, we moved here, which is called northeast Alameda. At the time northeast Alameda was almost all White. But, again, we had no problems moving into this community, in part because John was a lawyer, knew a lot of the families. There were a lot of lawyers that live here. He knew them. I think my career at that point was just visible enough so that if we were unknown, we didn't have some of the obstacles we might have had if we were unknown.My sister lives on the east coast, and my older sister lived in 01:20:00inner northeast and because she had such a great clientele at the beauty salon, I think she never had problems living where she lived. Sort of that neighborhood ostracism that comes because of race, I don't think any of us experienced that here in Portland.

RK: Tell us sort of on another subject, tell us a little bit more about what you do for enjoyment. What is your social life like and kind of a little history of your social life as a child and as an adult?

KT: I always had a couple of neighborhood friends as a child that we were friends all the way through childhood. We did what kids do. Are you looking for something? I'm sorry. We do what kids do. We would go to skating parties on 01:21:00Monday night with kids in the neighborhood. There were house parties that we would go to as we got older. Oaks Park, Jantzen Beach, things that kids do. As I got older, I became a lot more inbred in the sense that-

RK: I'm going to interrupt you one second. You said you'd go to Jantzen Beach. At what point was Jantzen Beach integrated?

KT: Well, it wasn't when I was a child. You could go to the amusement park, but you could not go to the swimming pool.

RK: So you went for the amusement park?

KT: Right. Exactly. Right. The swimming pool, no colored were allowed, and that was true almost with every swimming pool. Right, and so what we would do, we would save our money and we would go to participate in the amusement rides and have picnics there with our family. Oaks Park, we rarely went there, never Blue Lake, because Blue Lake was restricted.

RK: Tell us about Oaks Park.

KT: Oaks Park was another amusement park, and it was probably not as sophisticated as Jantzen Beach. I always thought that Jantzen Beach was designed for kids and families with money. I don't know why I thought that, maybe because it always was very clean. Oaks Park was more like the place for the people. We went to both. We went to many church picnics at Oaks Park for sure, and they had a skating rink there, too. Skating was something we all did as kids.

RK: Roller skating?

KT: Roller skating, yes. Right. Then the other skating rink, I can't remember the name of it at the moment, but that was a Monday night activity where all of the kids from the neighborhood would go skating on Monday night. We would get there maybe at 5:00 and skate until 8:00. You'd talk about it for the next 3 or 4 days and then you're there next Monday. That was like the neighborhood thing to do when we were growing up. As young adults, we would spend a lot of time 01:23:00with other young adults, and we would spend time going out to dinner. We'd go to the Cotton Club. I don't know if you've heard about the Cotton Club, but the Cotton Club that was owned by Paul and Geneva Knauls on Friday, Saturday, Sunday. That was the hippest place in the city of Portland to go. They had live entertainment. It was just a fun place to be.

RK: Elaborate on that, what kind of music, who went there.

KT: It was, to describe it so that people would understand it, it was Black music. That was during the time of Motown, so it was Motown music. It was music that came out of Detroit, music that came out of Philadelphia. It was just the hip place to be. It wasn't just exclusive to Blacks, because there were people from all over town who wanted to go to a hip place, a cool place. They would go to the Cotton Club. That's what we would do. What was different then, than now, is the young couples, we would all go places. Sometimes we would go to a movie 01:24:00early, then end up at the Cotton Club, then we would go to a restaurant for breakfast before going home. I say to young people, you guys poop out at 11:00, 12:00 at nighttime, because you're tired. We were up until 3:00 or 4:00 and don't tell me that we have such energy, because all of us were young parents at the time. We definitely were having a good time in our community and having a good time that were a part of our community. We are not as connected now. I think tastes have changed, music has changed. it may be too expensive to go to dinner and to nightclubs when we used to when I was a young adult. We went all the time. It may just be cost prohibitive to do that today. I still, my form of real personal enjoyment and entertainment is to have a nice meal out in a restaurant. I still do that today.

Every now and then I will go to a movie. Movies are not as enjoyable to me today 01:25:00as they were 20 years ago, 30 years ago. I dare say, because I probably will offend a lot of people, I dare say the movies were better than they are now. I'm not a superhero person. I'm not a blood and gore person. I like a story that's well told. I like a narrative that's real clear. I like suspense and I like glamor and I go to those kinds of movies, and those are not necessarily easy to find today.

RK: What about your friends, what kind of friends, do you have a circle of friends or are you isolated?

KT: No, other professional friends, definitely professional girlfriends. Some of them are local and some of them are nationwide. There are a group of us that will meet maybe once a year. I have a timeshare in Florida. We'll meet there and catch up. I still have four or five of my girlfriends from high school and we go 01:26:00to dinner maybe once every 2 months, 3 months, regularly and kind of catch up with each other, find out what's happening with our other classmates. Most of my friends are what I call professional friends that either live in close proximity or have some relationship to me over the course of my lifetime.

RK: I think you mentioned earlier that currently you're closer African American friends do not live in Portland.

KT: From high school.

RK: From high school

KT: Right.

RK: Then so when you're going out now for dinner or socializing with people, you have people over for dinner? Go to people's houses?

KT: I used to do a lot more entertaining here at home than I do currently. I used to thoroughly enjoy inviting 2 or 3 couples over for dinner. I love to 01:27:00cook. That's my art form. I enjoy it. I enjoy sharing that art form with others. I like everything about it. I like shopping for the groceries. I like planning for the meal. I like decorating the table. I like watching people eat and savor the food. I like their response. If the response is delayed, I think don't do that again or change it if you're going to do that again. I love that. I would do more of it, if I had the time to do it. I think right now, and this is a weakness on my part, I think I allow my professional life to be all-consuming. When I get home I just don't have the energy and the time to what I used to love to do 20 and 25 years ago. However, it's not wasted time, because I've done a lot more thinking about how I want to frame and share this story and I actually go through some mental processes thinking about how I want to do that. It's not 01:28:00like it's wasted time when I, late afternoon, thinking and listening and watching. I love storytelling on television. Is that a genre that I can glean from to tell my own story? I like listening to how people present their narratives. I like news. I'm a policy news wonk. I get a certain amount of energy from knowing what's happening in our world and then dictating what that means to me in terms of, again, my advocacy. I think we have a lot of troubles right now and a lot of challenges, and not necessarily what I can a responsible way of responding. If I can contribute to it being a responsible response, I will do that. I feel like my life is probably 28 hours of the 24 a day and 10 01:29:00days of the 7 days a week. I'm busy all the time, involved all the time, connected with people all the time, talking all the time, challenging people to do more, even though they feel like they have less.

RK: Are you working full time now?

KT: Yes, I work full time.

RK: So, but its Thursday when we're having this interview.

KT: Yes.

RK: Is this, are you kind of including this as part of?

KT: I'm on vacation time. I'm on what we call paid leave time.

RK: So you took leave for us?

KT: Yes.

RK: Well, thank you.

KT: [Laughs] Well, thank you for the invitation, yeah.

RK: I saw on your paper with your education that you have an honorary doctorate. Can you tell us about that?

KT: Yes. I'm very proud of that. I am a graduate of the University of Portland and feel like it provided me with a superb education, excellent education, and I believe it is an extension of what my parents tried to do with them making sure 01:30:00that we were in a faith-based environment. University of Portland is Catholic and it is definitely faith-based. There are all the values that are important to who I am how I live my life were definitely there on a variety of levels. So, when it appeared like it was appropriate for them and for myself I was invited to join the Board of Regents and I am currently a member of the Board of Regents. I also support that university in whatever way I possibly can. I didn't do this this year but in the past I've had the Black students that are students at the University of Portland over for dinner for two reasons. It isn't a university that has a large population of Black students, so I want to know that they are having a really high-quality experience, and if they are not what could we do differently? But also it's a place that's not on campus. It's a place 01:31:00that's not in the dorm. They can come here. They can let their hair down. We have dinner and we're on this floor. I've had as many as 24 people here from the university and then after we've had dinner I let them go downstairs, play music, listen to music, have dessert. I don't go down there, just let them talk to each other. They seem to enjoy it. I definitely, I get a high level of excitement and enjoyment out of being able to do that.

Well, in other words, I've been connected to the university in one way or another for a very long time. So, about, I think about 5 years ago at this point, maybe 7 years ago, I was told that I was going to receive an honorary doctorate for the work in the community, primarily the work that I've done with people in general and then my ongoing support of the university. I felt that, and feel like that was a very, very high honor. You can't make that happen. 01:32:00Somebody has got to make that decision to do that and they have to look at their own reasons and criteria for doing it, so I thought it was a very high honor.

RK: Let's talk a little bit about your relationship to the church. So, you belong to the Catholic Church.

KT: No. I am not a Catholic. No. I'm not a Catholic.

RK: Oh, you're not. Okay, that's what-explain a little bit about that.

KT: No. I was raised a Baptist. My relationship now is with a Baptist church that's online out of Maryland. I am not a member of a local church here.

RK: Why aren't you a member of a local church?

KT: It's not why I'm not. It's why I am a member of the church that I am. A friend of mine who is in Vancouver, knows that I love to travel. That's my avocation. She is a member of this church, and she says they have planned a trip to Brazil. It's a Black church. They planned a trip to Brazil. Would you like to go? Well, I've always wanted to go to Brazil. I thought, well, let me explore this and see what it's about. I did. And I agreed, not agreed, but I paid to be 01:33:00a part of that tour group. I really was impressed with the pastor. He's a relatively young man. He is all about social justice and social change. It's another form of Kay Toran. I really like the fact that he's planning these adventures to predominantly Black countries. I did not know that Bahia, the southern part of Brazil, is predominantly Black, five million Black people in Bahia. That's more Blacks that any other part of our continent. That was all new to me. They've been able to maintain the African culture. It was such a rich, exciting experience that when I got back I thought I want more of that. That's the reason I'm connected to that church. It has nothing to do with being against anything here. It's just that it has a mission and agenda that really speaks to me.

RK: Have you been to Africa?

KT: No. I have not.

RK: That's your next?

KT: Ghana. That's my next trip. It's Ghana.

RK: Next trip. I just want to go back a little bit to something that's a little more, that's fun. You say you really like cooking and doing that, so what kind of food do you cook and what are your food interests and tastes?

KT: Yeah. Well, that's really a good question because I'm very eclectic. I have yet to find a cuisine that I don't like. I really focus on foods that are flavorful, that are spicy, that introduce new kinds of food choices. For example, I was able to go to Peru and I just fell in love with quinoa. It's 01:35:00tasty. It's food that I have never had before. It is as rich in protein as meat. I started cooking quinoa. I started cooking with the variety of potatoes that come out of Peru. When I was there, I was told that they have 510 varieties of potatoes. So, I'm always exploring new opportunities. I love soul food. I love creating soul food in different ways to present it. I don't think there's any food I haven't tried. I'm not very good at Middle Eastern cuisines. That's just because I haven't done it enough. I like all kinds of foods and I try to at least experiment with as many as I possibly can.

RK: I want to go back a little into depth about your participation in the Civil Rights Movement, just to be a little bit more specific, because in terms of 01:36:00exactly what you did do and did you participate in demonstrations. If you did, what was the experiences you had? Responses of people. Go into more detail of exactly the activities you did and how others around you...?

KT: I think probably most often it was a protest march. As I said, it wasn't just civil rights. It was also the march against the war in Vietnam. There were several in downtown Portland. March to city hall: do this, do this, do that. I was on campus getting my master's degree of social work and there were many organized protests that came out of Portland State that I participated in. I remember most often that I was involved in letter writing or petition signing. I 01:37:00wonder sometimes where are all those petitions? Are they filed away someplace with the FBI? There was a much more organized effort to collect our voices, to take a position on an issue back then. I wasn't able to participate in the march on Washington in 1963, but I was riveted to listening to that and then following that with letters that the president needed to act on those issues that had been identified. My own memory was that I made more, my voice was more heard in that process than it was in anything else was that actually agreeing to signing a petition or developing a petition, sending a letter, and they were letters. We didn't have email or anything like that at that point in time. Getting an organized group to talk about let's all sign this letter together.

RK: Did you participate in organizing those groups or were you organized by someone-how did that work?

KT: Yeah. I don't ever believe that I was the organizer. I participated in those groups that were organized, and you'd get the notice that on this Saturday we're going to be on this block in downtown Portland and we're going to be demonstrating in front of ABC & E. I remember being a part of that. I don't think I was ever the leader organizing it.

RK: How did you get the notice?

KT: A variety of ways. You'd get them in your box at school. Sometimes you would get them at church-outside of church. Not in church. Down at the beauty salon there would be flyers brought in. There just a variety of kind of, what you call, kitchen ways of communicating at that point of time because none of the current ways existed.

RK: Where were you living at that time?

KT: When I was a student at the graduate school of social work I was living, let's see that would have been on northeast Ainsworth. That was my first home when I came back from Germany.

RK: During the Civil Rights Movement, that was in the early '70s, or '68.

KT: No. It was in the '60s.

RK: '64, '65.

KT: No. Because I graduated from the University of Portland in '64, so I would have been in Germany '65, '66, so I was coming back from about '66 to about '72 that would have been the Civil Rights Movement. That's my phone. Just ignore it. I remember...

RK: Do we need to stop?

GREGORY BLACK: Okay, let's keep rolling. Let's just, can you answer that question again?

KT: Okay. Because you got the phone, right? The ringing.

GB: Yeah.

KT: Right.

GB: Uh-oh. Standby [phone noise in background].

KT: Ready?

GB: We're still rolling.

KT: Okay.

GB: Just answer that question again.

KT: Yeah. So, I returned to the United States in 1965, '66. The Civil Rights Movement was just getting underway in the United States of America, and it went all the way through 1972, which is when I got my master's, my actual degree, was in 1972. I'm pretty sure it was '72. During that period of time, I would call myself a student activist, even though I wasn't a student all of that time. My colleagues either were students. We all sort of thought the same way. We were involved on one level or another with SNCC, with CORE, the NAACP, less so with 01:41:00the Urban League for me at that point in time. There were just all these activist organizations that participated on some level or another organizing people to have their voice be heard, and that's what I was a part of.

RK: What do you think the movement accomplished in Oregon?

KT: In Oregon. I would probably say Oregon was impacted by what happened at the federal level. During that period of time, we had the Civil Rights Act, which actually was signed into law in 1964. The affirmative action equal opportunity policy in 1965. The voting right act 1965 as well. All of those federal policies affected what Oregon was doing and needed to do. So, it wasn't because of what the Oregon state legislature was doing on its own. It was impacted by all of those changes at the federal level. As a consequence, they did change some 01:42:00Oregon law. The director of affirmative action, for example, was directly related to the fact that Lyndon Johnson had signed the Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Law, public law 96272 I think the number is, passed that into law. It was applicable to all contractors. As a consequence Oregon passed some laws to implement that kind of legislation. It wasn't Oregon's initiative. It was what was happening at the federal level.

RK: How do you think this has affected your life through the years?

KT: Oh, more doors were open to me as a consequence of the Civil Rights action, the federal legislation and what happened in Oregon. I never would have even thought about working for the governor of the state as a child. I don't think anybody in my family would have talked about it. I don't think anybody in our church community would have said are you interested in working for the governor? I definitely know I would not have been the director of a state agency if it was 01:43:00not for all of the civil rights activity, both at the federal level and at the state level. So, many, many, many doors were opened to me as a consequence of the activity in civil rights in the United States of America. RK: I think in a way you've answered this question, but maybe you have something more to elaborate, is comparing the Civil Rights situation today to the past in your life. KT: Sure. I think the way to answer that is not from a civil rights perspective. I think it's from a human rights perspective. I think we're much more tolerant of behavior that is inexcusable in the United States of America. It definitely impacts people who are different, but I believe we are 01:44:00insensitive. I believe we're callous. I believe we allow language to be used that is mean spirited. We would not have allowed a veteran to be attacked by the president of the United States of America 10 years ago, but we allow it today. So, it's beyond our commitment to equal rights and civil rights. It is our lack of humanity towards each other that's really eating around the edges of us as a people. If we don't stand up, and I say we, I mean everyone stand up and say this is no longer acceptable. It has got to stop and we are going to hold people accountable. If we don't do that, we are going to have a sore that has festered out of control. My concern is when are we all going to stand up and say enough. 01:45:00Stop. But it's way beyond civil rights. It is our lack of humanity towards each other.

RK: Why do you think this has happened?

KT: I don't have a good answer to that. People say maybe it's always been there, and then once we had the successful election of an African American president it just all exploded. That may be. I don't know. I believe it's a lack of leadership. I believe when there was the cross burning in Milwaukie, Oregon, and Governor Atiyeh held a press conference the next morning and said this is unacceptable and I'm going to take some action. I don't think we see that today. I think it's going to require that.

RK: Well, I could ask you what else, what still has to be done [laughs]. I know 01:46:00you're kind of working on that.

KT: Yeah. Lots. I am an eternal optimist, which is why I'm a professional social worker. It's why I have committed my life, my life's journey to this work and to this population is because I believe there is a light at the end of a tunnel and it's not a train. I believe that we can do what needs to be done. I believe that we will be better. What's most concerning is that there will be a struggle for us to get where we are to where we need to be.

RK: As a very last question, as you look back on your life what stands out most in your memory?

KT: That's a big question. I'll answer it this way, that if I had a magic wand what I would wish for everybody is that they had the loving, caring, supportive 01:47:00parents that I did, because who I am, the core of who I am, is directly related to the upbringing, child rearing, and the love that I had from Ben and Mary Rose Steen, my parents.

RK: What were the best parts of your life, those that were, what were the best parts?

KT: My children and my grandchildren, without a doubt.

RK: Why is that?

KT: They're just the joy. Just watching this new life emerge that becomes someone that expresses experiences and shares the joy and pain of life. It's just a joy for me to see. It's just a high point. I'm watching that happen with my little 2-year-old right now, my 2-year-old grandson, just watching how he's a 01:48:00sponge and he enjoys the richness of life and how he shares the things that are troubling to him. I just said, every child should be like Harrison and every Harrison should have this wonderful support system around him that's a teacher, that loves him, that cares for him, that teases him, that plays with him, and watches him just evolve as a kid and eventually as a young person and a young man. There's just great joy in the natural things of life. I don't need the chocolate covered strawberry [laughs].

RK: What was not so good in your life?

KT: Oh, obviously when I got married. I was getting married for the long-term, wanted a long-term relationship, wanted my kids to have the joy and experience of both parents forever, and that didn't happen. Is it a disappointment? To some 01:49:00degree, but it definitely has been a life learning experience, that life doesn't always turn out quite the way you plan.

RK: What would you have done differently, if you could?

KT: I don't know that I would have done anything differently. The reason I say that is I have learned from those things that have not turned out well and I've learned from the things that have turned out well. To say I would have done something differently would have prevented me from a learning experience. So, I believe what has happened to me was supposed to happen to me. My challenge and the gift is how do you learn from it, Kay? How do you move on?

RK: One last question-what would you say are the, maybe you've said this already, I'm not sure, but highlights and disappointments? We look at the different times of your life, your early childhood, your adolescence, and your 01:50:00middle age, and I'm going to say older age, but as far as I'm concerned your kind of still in just very active age.

KT: [Laughs]. So, the question is?

RK: What are the highlights, your kind of highlights and disappointments of the various stages of your life? I see them as really 3, because you've not reached older age at all.

KT: Yes. I think for my early stage in life having the rich experience that I did in my schools, in my school experiences. The fact that very early in life I was challenged with having to be around young people who were different than I, moving from a predominantly Black community to a predominantly White community and having the skill, and some of that may be natural. I don't know, and knowing how to relate to that and maintaining some of those friends even today. In my 01:51:00adulthood it's a variety of things. One of my avocations, we really didn't talk about this a lot, you know travel. I have been able, I've been blessed, to travel to 17 countries. That has been just a rich, rich experience. To experience these different cultures, these different people, learning how to hear what people are saying who are different, listening to people ask my questions that could be a bit agitating, but they want to know. There's a quirkiness about me about, I love going to ancient civilizations, why were some of these ancient civilizations so advanced, in a lot of ways more so than we are today? What was that all about? What can we learn from that? That's been one of my joys, is to come back and reflect on wow, I met people in Central America that took me to this museum that had these sculpted stone heads, Black men, that 01:52:00are 20' tall and 18' wide. Wow. I've never heard of that before. The Olmecs. Who did it and why did they do it and where did they come from? I'm still struggling with trying to get an answer to those kinds of questions. So, that's one of my highlights is being able to travel to these different cultures and have this rich experience of seeing something that's totally different than anything I would have imagined. As I get older, being in good health. Being able to travel with my grandchildren. You know, my granddaughter and I we went to Europe together. My grandson, to Montreal. Just being blessed with the good health to be able to be a part of their lives and have them be a part of my life.

RK: Well, thank you very much. I know that there's way lots more things you could tell us, but for this interview, I think we can say we...

KT: It's a wrap [laughs].

RK: ...we've learned a lot, learned a lot. Is there anything else you want to add or ask us?

KT: No, just to thank you and the Oregon Black pioneers for taking it on. What this does for me is makes me reflect on many of the things that have happened to me in my lifetime that I think will make it a much, I don't want to say easy, but it will be a much more enriched experience as I put it to paper, as I write my own story. So, you've made me think about some of the ways to approach that, some of the ways to think about it, and some of the ways to go maybe a bit deeper and sharing this story that I might have thought. I don't want to be surface. I don't just want to tell a story. I want to talk about the meaning of the things that have happened to me that makes this story really important.

RK: Well, thank you very much.

KT: Thank you.