Geraldine Hammond Oral History Interview, April 12, 2018

GERALDINE HAMMOND: There's a neutral area in front of Hammond School, and, I'm so proud of this because they announce my birthday and the kids, some of them having fun counting. Oh! We did the math today! And I said, you did what? "We found out how old you are!" And, I said, shame on you. But, they do that. Sometimes the newspaper comes out and takes pictures of the birthday party. Now, that's it. You're into my life. You know all about me. Ed-this is the love of my life [holds up 8"x11" photo]. It's my husband, Wilber Hammond. Wilber was in the 00:01:00Army. Military's really in our lives. Dwayne was in the Navy. Dwayne's first son was in the Navy. Dwayne's wife was in the Navy. I was not in the Navy.

RUTH KORNBERG: You became an educator-a valuable educator.

GH: No. I just handle pictures. Okay, you had some questions. You can ask me.

RK: Okay, well, I understand from what you've told me before that you're basically, you grew up in New Orleans. Is that right?

GH: Yes.

RK: So, when-

GH: I didn't just grow up. I was born in New Orleans.

RK: So, when did you come to Oregon?

GH: A good question. I came to Oregon many, many years ago. I came to Oregon first to go attend school at Portland, University of Portland. I came to get a graduate degree at University of Portland. That was, oh, I'd say about 1950s. A long time ago.

RK: So, what made you choose the University of Oregon?

GH: The University of Portland.

RK: And University of Portland. What made you think of coming all the way to Oregon from Louisiana?

GH: At Loyola we were looking at schools that had the best psychology program. I was interested in psychology at the time. University of Portland had the best program. So, I had an aunt, an uncle, Velma and Ed, who had moved here during World War II. So, I thought, hey. I could live with them and attend school here. So, that's why I came here to attend school first at the University of Portland.

RK: How was that? Was there-did it turn out as well as you wanted it to?

GH: It was wonderful. I had a chance to intern at Fairview and it was great. 00:04:00But, I, Geraldine, was not excited about being with that level of people, because there were so many folks that had such great needs. I thought all day with people with disabilities was really not my cup of tea. So, I thought, no. I think I'd rather have classes for school administrators or some organization where there was the possibility of improving. I thought, oh some of these folks were in their 50s and 60s and probably would not improve. In schools, based on 00:05:00your skills, you can certainly see improvement in children.

RK: So, when you came here to Oregon. So, you'd already been at university in New Orleans, and then you came here for higher university education... how would you compare your experiences living in New Orleans to coming and living in Portland?

GH: I had to compare it in many ways. Alright, if you look at schools it's quite different. In New Orleans, when I first went to LSU-Louisiana State University-it was very difficult because the group of us that was chosen, the 00:06:00schools, for that school had been not graduate students but they chose only the students who were going to graduate with honors. So, the whole list of us was sent-that was terrible, because we sat in a roped-off area and we attended class in that same area. We were not allowed to go into the main population. But, at Dillard, where I did my undergrad work, Dillard University in New Orleans was all African Americans. It was a private Methodist school and it was wonderful. I 00:07:00thought the classes were great, as great as they could be. Yes, that's where I got my undergrad work.

RK: Then, you came to University of Portland.

GH: University of Portland.

RK: What about the race relations there? What was that like?

GH: It was different, because I think I was the only person who was of African American descent at University of Portland. And-are you waiting to tell me something, are you, mister photographer?

GREGORY BLACK: We're just going to take a quick pause. I want to make one correction on my microphone, please. We're getting great audio on you, but-

GH: How can you? I have a quake-y voice.

GB: We got you covered.

GH: Really?

GB: Yeah. Electronics are really good now.

GH: Well, you know of course it's off now.

GB: Hmm?

GH: Are you recording?

GB: Oh yeah, I just made one slight adjustment. Okay, so let's continue. We're good. We'll fix it in the mix.

GH: You'll fix it? Okay, because I have to share, I had a stroke in '94. My voice was really traumatized, I guess. So, I still have a lot of speaking engagements, and my voice, I thought, sounds terrible. So, they used botox. I 00:09:00get a botox in my vocal cords, and my voice is clear as a bell.

GB: Nice.

GH: But, expecting you today, I did not because it hurts, hurts, hurts! It's not that I didn't want to sound clear and beautiful, but I didn't want to hurt.

RK: This is fine, because this is you. This is natural you, and that's what's important.

GB: And, it's engaging, too. It's very engaging.

RK: Yes.

GH: Okay.

RK: So, we were talking about your experience at the University of Portland.

GH: Ok. I hope you didn't see that. Okay, m experience at University of Portland was different from UCLA. It was different from Gilbert Academy. It was different from Dillard, in that the ratio of African Americans to Whites, Caucasians, was 00:10:00always different. Dillard was an all African American school. UCLA, Loyola, was an all-White, all-Caucasian school. With University of Portland, there was mixture, like an eighth of "others," and maybe 1 or 2 African Americans. What I discovered in my 85 years is that if there is a small number of African 00:11:00Americans or "others," it's not as threatening. You're treated as someone special. Oh, there goes Geraldine. Make sure if you do a picture, she's included. But, the relationship it's wonderful in some places and it's on a day-to-day basis at others. Sometimes many people anticipate something negative might happen, and others are delighted to meet you.

RK: Can you give some examples?

GH: Okay, for example, there are persons who want to have the "Black 00:12:00experience," so they want to have lunch with you. They want to have dinner with you. They want to sit next to you in class. To me, that's different. Whereas, with an all one race group, one ethnicity, you just are a part of the mix.

RK: For the ones that want to have the "Black experience," what do you think about that?

GH: What do I think about that?

RK: Yeah, is that a positive? Negative?

GH: I really can't tell you, because it's up to the individual whether they want to be inclusive, collective, or isolated. For me? It's fine. I've been each one. 00:13:00I have met wonderful people who wanted to have the "Black experience," who want to touch my hair, feel my skin, and I have relatives that say, no, no. I say, yes, yes. Why not? They want to know what it's like. I've had many experiences with that. I had one lady who said, oh, you have such beautiful skin! I said, thank you! She said, well, you know African Americans don't have pores. I said, oh, thank you for telling me that! I did not know that. Then, a couple of days later, you know how we get those blemishes at certain times of the month? I 00:14:00couldn't wait to tell her, you know? I now have a blemish! It went right over her head. I said, it's because of integration, you know? [Laughs] I said, somehow I have a blemish. I have a pimple in my perfect skin, and it's clogged. What does that say for integration? I felt terrible. She didn't-I could have saved my breath for a dying day because she didn't even get the joke. She didn't get the hint. It just, she just didn't get it, that it was biologically 00:15:00impossible for me to be existing without pores.

RK: What other examples do you have?

GH: Of?

RK: Some of the negative things. Then we'll have examples of the positive things.

GH: I'd appreciate that. I'm really a positive person. I try to be. At one school, I had a lady who thought we should name the mascot "coon." I never quite got that, because coons had the white hand or something. But since they had a Black principal, then our mascot should be.... anyway, I didn't have to deal with that. Staff took care of her. They just-oh, you are joking! I'm embarrassed 00:16:00that you said that! I just walked out of the room. I just didn't, I didn't feel her and at that time I didn't want to.

RK: Yeah. What were some of the positive?

GH: Positive? I have positives every day, because I wake up expecting them. I could not start to tell you what the positives were, are, and will be, because it depends on the person. I meet great persons. I meet not so great persons. Life has been just wonderful for me.

RK: When you first came-you went and you were living with your, you had an aunt and uncle here.

GH: Yes.

RK: Tell us where did they live in Portland?

GH: They lived in Portland. They lived in northeast Portland. My uncle was in the service, in the military and my aunt worked for the VA hospital.

RK: What neighborhood, what street, where did they live? Do you remember?

GH: I think-that was a long time ago, 1948, '49? My aunt and uncle lived in northeast Portland.

RK: What kind of a house was it, or apartment?

GH: House.

RK: Uh-huh. Then, so you lived with them until when?

GH: I did. Okay, now, I would have to start with a chronology and start saying-I came here [laughs].

RK: Good. That's what I want.

GH: I can't do that, because I'm getting old and forgetful. But, I know I came here in, that's a good question-1953, I think.

RK: You came here. You moved in with your aunt and uncle, and you were going to school. How long did you stay with them?

GH: Oh my God, for several years. I enjoyed it, because I came from a family of 00:19:007, and moved to a family of my aunt and uncle, who had no children [laughs]. I enjoyed it. It was fantastic. I had aunt and uncle to myself. I had access to the car. You go from being one of seven children, to the only child. That was wonderful.

RK: In the neighborhood where they lived, were there a lot of African Americans at the time?

GH: There were. About 7th, where we lived, was mixed. I spent so much time in school. I guess, when I think about it, the neighborhood was okay. It was a 00:20:00mixed neighborhood, and, let's see-most of the folks were pleasant. I was young. Aunt Velma and Uncle Phil were a light in the neighborhood. We attended Mt. Olivet Church. That was wonderful.

RK: Tell me about that church. What was that church like?

GH: Oh, it was a great church because the minister there had been an Episcopalian minister. He had a very quiet church, and he had a church that was 00:21:00strictly-his sermons were based on scripture. The music were hymns and the people liked my aunt and uncle. They liked me. I would say it was kind of what you'd classify as maybe economically above-average, if you can call it above-average. I think that's what it was.

RK: Was that church mixed or just mainly Whites or African Americans?

GH: It was mainly African Americans. There were a few other races. There were a 00:22:00few Africans at the time. That's all I can remember.

RK: When-I know you got married eventually.

GH: Oh yes.

RK: If we keep going along with your life-so, you went through your, you had your university education.

GH: While I was getting my education I also met my husband and married and really enjoyed Portland even more [laughs], because I met my Aunt Velma's family, and plus I had the new family of Hammonds and Parkers and it was great.

RK: When did you get married?

GH: In, hmm, that's why I said I almost need a chronology, a written chronology, so I can think. I got married in, I said, before '50, but it was married in '60, 1960.

RK: In 1960.

GH: Mm-hmm.

RK: Then, you and your husband then looked for a place to live?

GH: We did. We did. We found a very nice place in Portland, of course. Couldn't too far from my aunt and uncle [laughs]. Let's see, our first house was on 14th street, kind of in the Grant School area. That was nice. Now, that area was all 00:24:00of one ethnicity, now it's a primarily White neighborhood. It was interesting because to the east, west, north, and south they knew that we were coming [laughs]. We walked down the block, and "Hi, Mrs. Hammond." In my heart, I would think, strange. I don't know you. It was the time when people, realtors, got permission for African Americans to move into certain neighborhoods. So, I discovered that they knew who we were and it was great.

RK: So, the realtors had notified, I guess before the people before you sold the house-

GH: That's right!

RK:-the realtors had notified the other neighbors?

GH: Had "gotten permission" [scare quote gesture] for us to move into that neighborhood.

RK: Then, tell me about how your relations with the neighbors were?

GH: Just great. Next door to me lived a lady who had been the first land-owner of huge land. She owned, let's see, farms, just lots of farms. She had been the first banker in Oregon. She was one of the first persons to invite, what do you 00:26:00call the people who ride horses? Hmm, gee, I've lost it. I can't remember. He was a jockey.

RK: A jockey?

GH: I got it! Ah! Don't lock me up, yet! Okay, he was a jockey. She had sponsored him. That proved to be our asset. She sponsored him and when he was not grooming horses, training horses, riding horses and needed some additional things to do, she would send him-go help the Hammonds. I found in those years here in Oregon [break in recording].

RK: Okay, so you were talking about the jockey who would come over and help.

GH: Yes.

RK: What kind of things did he do?

GH: Oh, he would-oh, this was. Oh, about 2, 3 years after we moved there. He'd come over. He would walk Dwayne. Back then, let's see, he might take Dwayne out in his stroller and go around the block. Those were the days when you could have faith that people were being okay, were good people. He was wonderful. Dwayne would go with Mrs. Cooper's friend, and take Dwayne for a walk. My husband had a joke, because Mrs. Cooper liked to talk even more than me, and Wil said, okay, 00:28:00it's your turn to go outside and talk with Mrs. Cooper. She was waiting for us to come out the door so she could have a conversation. She was a wonderful person: Marie Bernette Cooper, was one of the first bankers in Oregon.

RK: What about other neighbors? Was there any negative things?

GH: Really, when I think about it, that's why I'm so often shocked when someone says they want to interview me, because I was like, I had the most enjoyable 00:29:00time. I did. I didn't anticipate that, I guess coming from New Orleans we "knew our place" [scare quotes gesture], I didn't go into situations where problems were. I was very comfortable in my neighborhood. I love gardening. My husband and I worked in our yard and enjoyed our yard and we were enjoyed by people.

RK: That's wonderful. Now, let's go and talk about when you started getting your first job.

GH: Oh. Okay.

RK: Let's go through your whole career, from the beginning when you got your, 00:30:00was your first job when you were an MA or did you have jobs when you were younger?

GH: When I came to Oregon I sent my resume. I applied for a teaching position. I do recall personnel lost my application. I was offered a position, and I said, well, my application is here. I found out what-I'm stuttering, uh. Must be a not-so-pleasant topic, because when I heard of an opening at Highland School, I 00:31:00applied for it, but none of my papers were at the personnel. I said, oh, all my papers were sent from Dillard and from LSU. It's, no. Couldn't find them. I said, well, it was identified that I needed to take Oregon history. I had to take Oregon history, because, of course, coming from Louisiana, I didn't have Oregon history, and geography. I had to take those. I went to Portland State and 00:32:00took those. Anyway, district couldn't find it. At first, I got hired without all of my papers. I will not say what happened, but they were lost.

RK: But they hired you.

GH: They hired me, and I completed another set.

RK: What was that work experience like?

GH: Work experience was at Highland School teaching second grade. I was, it was great. I was the youngest one on the staff. It was good, a great experience, for me anyway. For them, I don't know. The principal was pleasant. The staff was 00:33:00ready to help me, you know, get acquainted, get adjusted. I guess, I'd have to say some were not.

RK: What were, again, some kinds of examples of some of the kind of positive relations? Some of the examples of-

GH: Negative.

RK:-some of the negatives.

GH: Negative was a first grade teacher stating that I had beautiful skin but no pores [laughs].

RK: That was that person?

GH: I thought that was a bit negative. A couple like that, you know. Each day there was always someone who wanted to touch my hair or my face or my skin 00:34:00because they had never, they claimed they just had not been afforded that opportunity by the other members of the staff or neighborhood who were ethnically different. It didn't bother me. I said, this is, can I charge you? I said, on Thursdays I'll allow folks to touch my hair. I found that making jokes, and I passed this to a lot of folks who come into an ethnically different area, if you can find something to laugh about you probably will make a happier entry 00:35:00if you can. If you can laugh about it, or, then I think it becomes negative, saddening, you can't approach it. Some of these things when I go back and think about them, I think my brain dismisses them because I find it just not pleasant and I find if I retain them, they make me older and uglier and frown and so, I'm a deeply spiritual person. I pray to God to give me strength to go through, to maintain, to sustain during all of these things. I ask God to walk with me and 00:36:00be with me. That's it, really. Sometimes I have to go into corners and cry and put on my helmet and come to face it [laughs]. Or, if I don't want to do that, then I remove myself from the situation, because, yes, when I really, intensely think about it, there were many that I thought unkind. I called them ignorant responses. Most times, you hate because you haven't allowed yourself to find out 00:37:00about that person, and we tend to hate things we don't know. I may not want to interact with you, sit by, if I don't know you. But if I take time to get to know you, who knows? I may find out that we have something in common. I may find out there's something you know and I need to learn. That's, I guess, is kind of the epistle of Gerry-if you want to get along, then learn more about the person and don't condemn them until you've gotten to know them. Then, I have a real reason for not liking you [laughs]. Or loving you, whatever. That's my 00:38:00philosophy. I call it the Epistle of Gerry.

RK: Continue, then, you were an elementary school teacher, and then-

GH: Second grade.

RK: Second grade. I know you advanced and advanced.

GH: I did.

RK: Tell us more.

GH: I told someone, you know, I've always been, God puts me in the right place holding the right credential [laughs]. That sounds funny, but it's almost been that way. Many jobs I didn't even-one, second grade, yes. I wanted it, but someone asked me if I would take it. I took it. While I was teaching second 00:39:00grade, someone wrote a television program about Bucky Beaver, and I thought. Oh, yeah, I would like to do that. That's one I was asked to apply for. I applied for Bucky Beaver, and I didn't get it because I was too primary. I appealed to younger children, and this was intermediate, upper. It said, but, we'll write one. We like your charisma. We like your style. We like-you're a great storyteller. We're going to write a program where we can utilize all these 00:40:00traits and characteristics. So, they wrote Mrs. Gerry and Friends. They hired puppeteers. They built Happy House, designed some puppets. For two years, I was Mrs. Gerry.

RK: Tell us more about that.

GH: Just quickly, Mrs. Gerry went on walks around the community, went on walks at the beach. The part of it that I liked, and apparently people liked also, I showed parents and children how to appreciate their community, their world, and after I walked and modeled how to do this, modeled how to look at a tree and 00:41:00there's more to know about it than the fact that it's standing there. Why is it standing there? It has roots, etc. I could do that, and then after the children were finished listening, I could tell the parents how to take that experience and turn it into a teaching tool.

RK: This was a regular public TV show?

GH: Unfortunately, it was parallel to Batman [laughs]. My son would say, I'm not watching you tonight. I'm watching Batman. That was punishment to me, I guess. Anyway, it came on Channel 7, and we taped it at KOPB. That was by Benson High 00:42:00School in Portland. I visited schools. That was a part of my responsibility and told them about the program. I also brought my photographer with me and we would visit different schools, take pictures of the kids, Mrs. Gerry talking to them, use bits and pieces on the show.

RK: How did the people accept you at the schools when you went into those different schools?

GH: They, anything associated with films and photography and TV is welcomed. So, 00:43:00here again, Mrs. Gerry was welcomed. The show was welcomed and folks like to be photographed, so they were glad. Ah! She's coming.

RK: You went to all different kinds of schools.

GH: I went to different schools. We photographed children. We photographed Mrs. Gerry talking to the principal, the cook, the custodian, different things.

RK: After that, what did you do?

GH: Well, after I did television someone offered an administrative credential at University of Oregon, so I went to University of Oregon because our contract was 00:44:00over with Mrs. Gerry. We sold Mrs. Gerry to Hawaii [laughs]. Mrs. Gerry was sold to Hawaii schools and to Samoa, because Samoa didn't have schools. They had a district, and so Mrs. Gerry could teach reading and it would be shown to all of the islands. They didn't need Mrs. Gerry. They just needed Mrs. Gerry's film. That was one thing. Then I went to the University of Oregon and was there, I 00:45:00think, 1 or 2 years, a couple of years, and got administrative credential, came back, ready to be a principal.

RK: Now, you're at the University of Oregon. Let's compare that to the other schools you were in. At that time were there other African Americans? What was the scene like there?

GH: The timing was perfect.

RK: What years was that?

GH: Ah-that's a good question. I'll have to think about that. But, the timing was good. There was a lady at the University of Portland, not, University of Oregon, Ducks, sorry. There were a lot of opportunities for green berets, all of 00:46:00them. Lots of opportunities for ethnic groups to be educated. Title I, Chapter I-the government was offering educational opportunities for people of color, for Hispanics, for Indians. So, the University of Oregon campus had all of these groups. It just so happened that Dr. Pearl was associated with psychology, and so I kind of aligned with him and got some programs started.

RK: What programs?

GH: History of American Education as an inclusive program showing that many 00:47:00groups contributed to education and all of it was not negative. It was positive. We did this, what was happening in the northwest, what were our contributions to northwest history, all of them weren't negative. There were the Stokely Carmichaels, yes, but there were also the first pioneers who came across and who settled. There was George Washington Carver in Washington. There's a library that he and his family started. There were many things. Nobody just took time to 00:48:00search them.

RK: That program, was that integrated into the history curriculum?

GH: It was.

RK: For the schools?

GH: Then, lots of persons were taking courses in Black history, Indian history, Spanish, Mexican American history. That was the time. It was good to be an administrator to head some of these programs. It was a good time to be alive, I thought.

RK: Then you became-then you got your degree at the University of Oregon that prepared you to be able to be a principal.

GH: Got a master's degree in administration. Came back and was principal of 00:49:00Wilcox School in Portland.

RK: How as the process of getting that job? Was it difficult?

GH: No [laughs]. It was not, because that was a time when districts were wanting to "integrate" [scare quote gesture] their schools, their district, the token, trying to have African Americans be a part of their staffs.

RK: How did you feel about being the token?

GH: The token? [Said simultaneously] Well, I'll tell you a joke, actually. Let me tell you this one. Portland was sending teachers to all-sending African 00:50:00American teachers to all White schools so they could "integrate" [scare quotes gesture] the staff. I was at this school. I was the only Black in a community on the staff, and one family lived in area. This was a way to show you how things differed. This one boy was about second, third grade, I recall. He loved his teacher. The family was accepted. I was the newcomer. I had to crawl and make my way. There was a little boy who was bussed in. He did not like being there. no one played with him. When I'd go out on the playground he would find me and hold 00:51:00my hand, walk with me. He'd say, Mrs. Gerry, he said, we've got to leave this place. I said, why? Do you like your teacher? She's okay. He'd say, but ain't nobody here but you and me [laughs]. I'd say, well, please. He said, I'm going back to my school. He didn't think it was his school. I said, oh please don't. I said, if you leave I'll be here all by myself [laughs]. Eventually, though, he did stop coming. I called his parents and asked why he was not at school. She said, he was unhappy. He liked the program, the curriculum, but no one played 00:52:00with him when he was on the playground. He just walked with Mrs. Gerry.

I guess that gives you kind of a feel for what it was like when there was just one. I think anywhere, when there are not persons that you have something in common with, maybe that's it. I'll tell you another story. At the same time, remember we had moved to, we moved from Portland to Salem. We moved to Salem. It was interesting. It was the year that my oldest was a senior at Benson High 00:53:00School. The youngest was a sixth grader. When I went around, my husband and I, looking for schools the principal here where Dwayne was going to attend school, he said, what school is he attending? I said, Benson. He said, oh, no he's not going to want to leave Benson High School to attend any school anywhere.

RK: Tell us something about that.

GH: Benson Polytechnic School was then one of the well-rated schools in Oregon. They called it Benson Polytechnic because you could take academically advanced classes or you could take technical training: math, science, mechanics. It was a 00:54:00well-you had to get permission to attend Benson. It was an all-boys school. So, Dwayne didn't want to change from Benson, so we let him stay at Benson. Lenny attended Morningside. We purchased this house and we thought we'll buy a house. We had good resale value if we get sick of this place. Anyway, Lionel went to Morningside Elementary.

RK: That's in Salem.

GH: That's in Salem, about 2 blocks from here. He liked it because-we've talked about this now that he's all grown-because he had friends that wanted him to come when school starts, come one this is where we're going to attend school. Everybody awaited him. The principal said, I love Lenny. I wish I could clone him. We thought it was a great idea. Nobody had ever said they wanted to clone Dwayne. Both of my kids were academically good, but Lenny had one other factor. He was musically gifted. I had two gifted kids, but they wanted Lenny as a part 00:56:00of their chorus. They wanted Lenny as a part of their foursquare ball game [laughs]. One day, I'm told, that the counselor said, hey Lenny I have a young man who's coming to our school, a young man Colin. I wish you could come and talk to him. He doesn't like it here. He said, Lenny told him, oh. I wish I could help you but I'm not a counselor [laughs]. Plus, I don't know him. Plus, what does he like to do? Find out what he likes to do. We tried him on our 00:57:00foursquare team. He can't kick the ball. So, he didn't make it.

RK: The school here. Describe that school. Was it mainly all White? or Mixed?

GH: Here?

RK: Yeah.

GH: The school was-yes. You look at pictures. There's Lenny. You'd say, which one is Lenny? I would say, really? You are joking. Anyway, you can tell where Lenny is and he was a part of jazz, etc. You could tell where Lenny was located when he was in middle school and high school, but he was always in some music group or he was a fast runner. So, he excelled in chasing relays. School was 00:58:00okay for him, but if you talk to Lenny he says, mother, they liked me because you were principal in the district and they wanted to associate with me because there was a swimming pool and we had a hot tub. I don't' think it was me. It was the things we had. I found that out when I got older.

RK: Now let's continue, so you were principal and I know you developed further things in your career that were very important.

GH: Yes, and no, yes. I belonged, I'm a talker, here, there, but I became a part 00:59:00of the Human Rights and Relations Committee at the district level.

RK: At the school district?

GH: School district, Salem, Kaiser. We had some problems. There was one family that had problems at the time. The lady came to the schoolboard and complained. Then she went to the, well, she complained there because her son was having, was 01:00:00dating a young girl, white girl, and folks from the Aryan Nations attacked him. Just beat him to a pulp. The lady was very concerned about that because she had attended school in Salem and she said things were not getting better. They were just as bad. She was talking about race relations. She said, they're just as bad. People do not respect people. People do not want to be associated with anyone except someone who looks like them. She said, it's bad. What's going to happen? It was one of those nights that I had come to attend the meeting, city 01:01:00council meeting, and I think the mayor said, is there anyone in here who represents the schools? I looked around, just as he was looking around, because I knew I was the only one there representing. I was not representing schools. I was a member of the community who was a part of Human Rights and Relations Committee who happened to be in the audience.

Anyway, while taping was going on someone pointed to me and said, oh, there's somebody from the school district. What do you have to say about this? I 01:02:00thought, me? And some other things that I care not to repeat. I walked down to the mic, and I said, well we're aware that there are problems. I said, it's a community problem. Folks have difficulty getting along, wanting to meet with people who are not like themselves. I said, and the school district, Salem Kaiser School District, our superintendent, Dr. Kerr, we're aware of that. We are planning curriculum that will bring people together that will value diversity. I don't know what-that's one of things that God puts in your mind 01:03:00quickly because you're on camera. It was unfortunate that our superintendent was listening to the city council meeting. He called my house that night and said, oh, bravo. I'm so happy to know that we're doing all of those things [laughs]. I'm laughing because he also said 7:00 tomorrow morning I'd like to see you in my office so we can put this curriculum together that values diversity and wants inclusion. What a great idea. I said, look. I was trying to save your hide 01:04:00[laughs]. We laugh about that a lot. Well, next thing I know, I became the coordinator of multicultural education, and I was planning a curriculum of inclusion.

RK: Tell us something about that curriculum.

GH: We met the whole weekend and designed it. It was years and years and years ago. The curriculum was good. One of the things that, let me stoop down here for a minute. I just have some [reaches down beside chair], let's open up these books. Maybe I gave it to you. A little green book? Red, purple, I don't know. But, I guess I'll tell you about it. What we did was to identify activities for 01:05:00different grade levels for different groups. We decided if we're going to do something we're going to do it in a big way. It was a curriculum of inclusion so that people would begin to know your neighbor, identify pros and cons. Are there good things about you your neighbor needs to know? Not so good? Whatever. I developed some booklets for kids at every grade level to have activities about all groups.

RK: Do you remember what some of those activities were?

GH: No. Of course I do. We had kids, every day, somewhere, somebody is 01:06:00celebrating something in some country. I would identify that. Like, Indians are celebrating. An Asian person is celebrating, and we need to know that. Ah! I have to find that book. But, I had artwork. I had stories, and kids from grades 1 through 6, high school was given book lists, every group was given a packet of 01:07:00books to put in their libraries on other groups, and I did workshops for the policemen. I did workshops for the state department. That's how we tried to educate everyone.

RK: Did you see any changes as that developed?

GH: At that time. I'm not sure. We did not test to see how well it continued to grow, like yeast. But, like yeast, it affected the whole dough, the whole bread. Everybody starting having inclusive parties. I even spoke at churches, and I 01:08:00remember one minister said, yeah. We had a Hispanic family in our congregation. I don't know what happened to them. I said, that's what we're trying to bring to your attention. You need to know what happened to them. Why did they leave your congregation? I guess that's it.

RK: When thinking about what's going on now, and thinking about that curriculum, do you think that that's still the kind of curriculum that's needed?

GH: I do.

RK: Or, there's some new things that need to be added that you have ideas for?

GH: I do. You know, so much of everything is dependent on money. It cost us beaucoups of money to prep those books. It cost beaucoups of money to hold those workshops. Districts are trying to get money to buy reading books and math books and English books, and so unless the teacher has that X factor that makes her want to teach her kids how to value diversity, it just doesn't happen. It saddens me, really, because it like an X factor, unless I feel inside of me my 01:10:00God-given X factor is to love everyone, it won't happen. You cannot say the law says you must get along. It just doesn't happen. That's the Epistle of Gerry. I don't think it's going to happen until people-you can't legislate, King said, not King, but someone who worked width King, said this, and he was speaking at Willamette, he said, you can't legislate people to get along. That's true. We have to desire, because if I want to get along with you, maybe your boss doesn't 01:11:00want that. You know? It's just a worldwide inner feeling that you have to learn to love, get along, or we all die.

RK: Going from there, you worked with a lot of different people-

GH: Hmm?

RK: You have worked with many different people.

GH: Ethnicities. I've enjoyed that.

RK: Mm-hmm. In terms of your friendships, did you become friends with some of the people that you worked with and do social things with them outside of work?

GH: I find that you teach kindergarten kids to come into the classroom and they 01:12:00all play together. You don't have to say, go play with Johnny. Don't play with Sue. They all just come in and play and hug and get along. I read the paper one day a little boy in kindergarten kissed, kissed, a little girl, in kindergarten and they suspended him. I'm going, what? That's a form of love. You watch that. You let him know how far are we going with this? That's nice. There's nothing wrong with that. I hug you, too.

RK: As an adult now, do you have friends that you do social things with that are both White and African Americans?

GH: Well, I live in Salem [laughs]. That's kind of a joke. Yes. I do. I belong 01:13:00to a church. If you ever come to visit Morningside, it's, oh there's Gerry! I'm there.

RK: Tell me, then, we want to kind of tie up here your career, so then you became principal.

GH: I became principal, years later the school district, the school board, decided they were going to build new schools, and they wanted to build schools for persons who had contributed to the welfare of the district. They put a 01:14:00ballot in the paper and said can you think of someone? Remember, I was training police and school district and university, so the name that they could recall-oh, Geraldine! Then this name came up and the board says, oh we can't name a school for Geraldine because she's still alive [laughs]. That information was given, oh Geraldine you were honored. Folks wanted to name a school after you but we can't because you're still alive. I said, I told the newspaper, don't print it, but yes I am! I'm honored that they wanted to do that, but I'm not 01:15:00dying for that honor [laughs]. Sorry, if you can't change it. I just won't receive that honor. Then, [laughs] people start saying why not? Why can't we name a school for someone who's still alive. Somehow they changed that. So, Hammond Elementary exists in north Salem. Beautiful. I shoveled the first scoop of dirt.

RK: That's where they celebrate your birthdays.

GH: Yes! [laughs] Yes, yes, yes. I'm so pleased.

RK: Tell us about those birthday celebrations.

GH: [Laughs] You'd have to get a tape. I'll share a tape with you. It depends. It depends on the principal. It depends on the staff. I'll tell you about the-the kids sing songs. The music teacher writes acrostic that says "G is for, and E is for..." and the kids sing it. The music department claps and they twist, and everything. I sit there crying, laughing, and twisting. It's wonderful. The kids read little things. The PTA, the parent teachers association, the parents bring food and the staff room they all have a spread. I 01:17:00wouldn't want to miss it. I stay alive so I can eat all this. That's it.

RK: That's wonderful.

GH: It is. Yes. The first year CCTV taped it. I have a copy of that. It's just great. One year, the kids, you look on my piano, someone, I like flamingos, so someone drew a picture of this huge flamingo, and every kid got to put thread around and then they outlined it with nails and every kid did a nail and a 01:18:00thumbprint to fill in this whole flamingo. That's what I'm telling you. You get what you look for. I look for positive things in people. I find them. I enjoy them. I try to love most people. I have a few that I have to really look hard, but most of them, if I keep looking I find it. I wish more people would look for something good. My grandma told me something once. She said, there's so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us that it doesn't 01:19:00behoove any of us to talk about the rest of us. That's it. We're good. We're bad. I'm like the little girl. I have a little curl. When I'm good, I'm very, very good. When I'm bad, I'm horrid.

RK: Tell us something about your social life. What are your interests outside of work? What do you like to do for fun?

GH: I was hoping you wouldn't ask me that [laughs]. Let me see how I can put it. I love church. I try to say that. I pray. I pray. I pray. But, I also like to go to casino [laughs]. That's my negative. I'm sorry, but I do. So, I go to church, 01:20:00and when I get a chance I go to casino, but I praise God all of the time, every day.

RK: Church-the two Cs: church and casino.

GH: [Gasps] Shame on you! But that is correct [laughs]. I never thought of it that way.

RK: Sorry. Sorry.

GH: I hope no one else thinks, hears you. Geraldine Hammond loves the two C's [laughs].

RK: Besides that? Besides that for what you-

GH: I love people. I do. I truly love people. I love canasta, because I don't 01:21:00know. I love canasta versus bridge. In bridge, you play-bridge is a card game. I remember my mom and dad played bridge and you had to be quiet because someone's thinking. With canasta, I can forget what I played last and someone will say, oh, hey it's your turn. It is? Who led? Who played? You know? I enjoy any situation-I love cooking. I love gardening. You look outside, right now, I've got some hyacinth that I really love. My tulips-I love my plants. I'll have roses everywhere. I love gardening. Cooking, I make the best gumbo.

RK: Ah-ha, because you're from Louisiana.

GH: From Louisiana. I can make gumbo and jambalaya. Those are my greatest. I love God. Because I love God, I love the people he made.

RK: Do you have many friends now?

GH: I have friends. I do. Not as many as I want, because, like me, they're either dying or they're not driving anymore, or they're sick or they're weak, or they have husbands and nobody wants you tagging along if they have their husband with them and you don't have one. That's what's happening to me now.

RK: I think that's-we all get older, that's one of the-

GH: You said a bad word.

RK: You're right.

GH: Yes. Older. I like that.

RK: We actually get younger.

GH: I think we get more experienced.

RK: Yes.

GH: I accept that.

RK: Tell us more about your family. We really haven't talked about that.

GH: Oh! I have two sons. One worked at, lives in Kent, Washington, and worked as assistant to a neurology department and my other son lives in Portland, my 01:24:00youngest. He worked at Freightliner, but unfortunately both of them now are not working because both of them have a form of depression. But they're beautiful kids and they're mine. I'm a widow as I told you, so I just have my boys. I have my sisters and brothers. Only two of them have passed away, and we get together for cookouts and we still have lots of fun.

RK: Do they come here? Where do they live?

GH: I have one brother who lives in Georgia. One brother lives in New Orleans. Highlight-one brother played with Fats Domino. Brother Ricky wrote music for DeBarge Jazz Band. Maddie sang, even with Portland Symphony. Another sister, Mary Etta's still singing. Who did I leave out? Two passed: Gwendolyn, Maddie, told you about Ricky. Ronald is in a care center. He's not well. He was the drummer and singer of our family. I have a nephew who went to University of 01:26:00Oregon and I told one guy, he said, who's your nephew? I said, his name was Michael Callier. He said, oh. I said, he passed his law exam the first time he took it. He said, Michael Callier. He said, that's not why we know Michael Callier. He made the winning tackle when we played Arizona and we hadn't beat Arizona in years and Michael gave us the winning [laughs]. He said, that's why we know Michael Callier. Oh yeah, we accepted him to pass the exam. We expected 01:27:00him. Michael was smart. He had two scholarships: one in sports. So, he did that and got his undergrad degree. Then when he graduated he came back and got his law degree with his academic scholarship. That's a highlight of our, I just had to sneak that one in because I'm very proud of Michael. Go, Michael! Let's see, I told you about my boys. I told you about my sisters and brothers. I have one nephew, Dr. Ofhanson von Spears [?]. Another brag-A.C. Green went to my school. 01:28:00He played basketball. When I was principal at Willamette-no, principal, principal, principal...at a school in Portland, he attended that school. Yeah. So, I'm proud of that. He played basketball.

RK: Do you have reunions of the family?

GH: Do you know? We don't. We don't. We have celebrations.

RK: Tell us about some of the celebrations and how you celebrate.

GH: If you, when's your birthday?

RK: March. March 25th.

GH: My husband's birthday was, say, March 13th, and so we would say, ah! Ruth! Let's celebrate Ruth's birthday. We'd all get together. We have a piano here. We 01:29:00have an organ. We just drink and talk and laugh and lie and enjoy. That's what we all-

RK: Do you have food? What kind of food do you have?

GH: Oh, we have food. We might decide if the, let's see-food.

RK: Give me an example of one of the last birthdays-

GH: Dishes?

RK: or celebrations.

GH: Okay. Last birthday.

RK: Describe the whole thing.

GH: Oh, with Lionel. Lionel's birthday is May 11th. He hates that, because that's also Mother's Day. A lot of years, let's say we'll have his birthday. Or, say, my birthday, October 13th. Then, it's celebrated at school and then the 01:30:00other day we'll go to my timeshare at Lincoln City and we'll go there. Or, he'll come here to my house. I'd rather celebrate at my house. We'll have gumbo. We'll have jambalaya. Everybody else will bring dishes.

RK: What kind of dishes?

GH: You bring whatever dish. We'll say, Ruth, come on to the party. You bring something that represents your ethnicity. You bring it. So, we might have-one lady, I saw in the grocery store, and my folks laugh at me. She said, aren't you Mrs. Gerry? I said, yes. She said, I used to watch you when I was a little girl. I said, you did?! I said, oh, how wonderful. I'd say, well, I'm having a party 01:31:00at my house. We invited her to the party, and she was Filipino. You bring a dish that represents your culture. We may have rolls. We may have whatever represents. We may have rice, wraps, Thai food. Oh, I love Thai barbecue. We may have that. Somebody may bring a cake, whatever. One lady brought sugar cookies. Oh, that is so good, because my mother used to bake sugar cookies when she was little. We never know. This table on my dining room is just filled with stuff.

RK: When was the last-so, there was your birthday, but besides your birthday what was the last celebration that you've had?

GH: Here at my house?

RK: Yeah.

GH: Hmm, I had a canasta party not that long ago. I did, had a canasta. The folks just brought stuff.

RK: When you have a canasta party, you play canasta, then you stop and eat? Or you eat while you're playing?

GH: Depends on what you want to do. But, yes, that's what we do.

RK: As you grew up-let's talk about, let's pick a particular holiday, like Christmas. So, when you had Christmas when you were a child and you were growing up in New Orleans, and then when you have Christmas here? Were there 01:33:00differences? What was the celebration like there? What was the celebration like here?

GH: Christmas in New Orleans. Christmas at the Callier's house. It's interesting that you would pick Christmas, because my father's mother had passed. [phone rings]. I'll just let it ring. We would have Christmas, Christmas, Christmas-Christmas was a big thing. We had roast, turkey, we had yams. We had, at our house, we had ham, we had roast. We had rice. We had rice in New Orleans. 01:34:00You eat rice with everything. Rice in gravy, dressing. Yams, greens-you always have to have some kind of greens or several kinds of greens. You had-oh my mother would make frappe punch, that's a big punch bowl with-what did Mom put in there. Oh, a gallon of ice cream, raspberry sherbet, and you pour strawberry punch on top of it. It's good. On the stove there's a big pot of... huh. What? 01:35:00Eggnog. Christmas, you said, so it's winter. There's this cold drink of frappe punch, but then for others there's this eggnog. I guess that's enough. All tables and several cakes. That's about it. We exchange gifts.

RK: Then the whole different members of the family brought food?

GH: Maybe.

RK: How was it organized?

GH: You came whether you brought some or not.

RK: I was thinking-whose home it was? Was that person responsible for everything?

GH: At Christmas in New Orleans it was at my mom and dad's house. Here in Oregon, it was first at Aunt Velma and Uncle Phil's house. Then, we had a large house, so it was our house.

RK: Tell us about the Christmas first at your aunt and uncle's and then the one here.

GH: Christmas, Christmas, Christmas. I know one year Christmas was funny I had learned to make rolls, so I made rolls for everyone. I thought I was so good at making rising yeast rolls. Then I give them half-baked rolls for Christmas. It started with Aunt Velma and Uncle Phil coming and I gave them their half-baked rolls. All you had to do was take it home and stick it in the oven. Uncle Phil said, hey, why not put on a pot of coffee and finish baking my rolls? We can eat them. So, we did. We ate Uncle Phil's rolls. Then Mom and Dad came, and I was 01:37:00going to give them their half-baked rolls, but Uncle Phil said that's not fair. You all ate my rolls! I think we should cool Olivia and Ed's rolls, so we can eat those. Velma had cooked a ham, I mean from scratch. So, she said, it's been great if we had some meat to go with this bread. So, Velma went home. She didn't live far, brought the ham, and we at that. Our Christmases were just comfortable. The next day, food was all like half gone [laughs]. The only thing that was happening at our house, the kids were playing with their toys and the adults were sleeping [laughs]. That's a kind of Christmas that was different.

RK: That's nice. I'm going to change the subject a little bit. Of course, you were here during all the Civil Rights Movement. Did you participate in the Civil Rights activities and how did you participate? Can you tell us something about that?

GH: A couple of different ways. I remember going to Woolworth when I first came here. The Civil Rights Movement was going on. Woolworth was segregated. I recall 01:39:00sitting at the end of the counter-that's where you had to sit. So, we sat there and had hot dogs or something because we couldn't go to the other end. I recall that. That's here in Oregon. I remember in New Orleans during the Civil Rights Movement-it depends on what year we're talking about. There's different years.

RK: Why don't you specify the year and tell us?

GH: Being at Dillard-I was attending Dillard '49 to '53. Go back a little. When we rode the St. Charles Street car, there was a wooden placket that you had to 01:40:00place in a hole in the back of the seats. If you got it. St. Charles Street car. Many, many seats. On the back of the seat, here [gestures to headrest area of recliner] two holds and a placard that said "for colored only." You stuck that [gestures behind head] and you sat in the seats beyond it, even if they had many vacancies. You couldn't sit in them. You had to sit beyond this placard. I can recall as a youngster we would take that placard and drop it out the window. 01:41:00That was not nice. That's a negative, because the law said you had this and you sit.

RK: What happened as a result of doing that?

GH: The conductor reported it to our principal and she reprimanded, don't do that. And we stopped doing it for a while. Then we started dropping them out the window again. That was not nice. I remember Gilbert Academy was located-that's the private high school I attended. It was supported by the Methodist Black Americans. I attended that school. The city always wanted to get rid of it, but 01:42:00couldn't because it had been there, established during right after the Civil War. It had been there all these years.

My class of 1948... was the last class to graduate from that school and they closed it and made it a White boys school. Now there's a big placard that says, Gilbert Academy, first school for colored students. Yeah. Talking about the 01:43:00Civil Rights Movement, hm. There were many things, but specifically I remember two things that would be interesting. My mother was born in Gonzales during this time which was, I'd say, '48, '50. I helped sign up people to vote. I remember that. Many folks in Gonzales could not read, but we taught them how to read their names, spell their names, sign their names, and get ready for voting. My 01:44:00grandpa on my mother's side was one of such persons. I recall spending lots of time with him teaching him how to do basic reading so he could vote. Hm. I remember being in Oregon during some parts of it when kids were bussed to integrate schools. I remember being a part of Highland School after the death of Martin Luther King. We introduced a proclamation to make it, change the name to 01:45:00Martin Luther King School. We worked hard on that. I remember living in, I remember lots of different things. I remember living here in Salem when we were plagued with Aryan Nation that came in and were doing several persons told me not to move here because this was the home of Klansmen.

RK: Tell us a lot more about that.

GH: Alright. Some of it I read, some of it I was told. When you'd come to Salem there were folks designated to give you a ticket and asked you to get back on 01:46:00the bus, back on the train, go to the next town like Eugene. That's why you'd find more African Americans in those places than Salem.

RK: When was that happening?

GH: Huh. Let me think, because it was you could go to the capitol and see that Oregon was not a place they had decided not to have Blacks, slave, nor free in the capital city of Salem. Hm.

RK: Was that particularly in Salem at a time when in Portland they had Blacks and Blacks had come in to work on the railroad and the boats in the shipyards?

GH: In Portland, Portland, Portland, Portland-I'm trying to specifically think of the name of the town that was flooded.

RK: Vanport.

GH: Vanport. Yes.

RK: What I was wondering is, was Salem, say, less welcoming to African Americans 01:48:00than Portland? Was there a difference?

GH: Yes.

RK: So, yeah, that's what, we don't know very much about Salem.

GH: Salem, Salem was the capital of Oregon. They attempted to keep it. Salem, there was an attempt to keep it all White. The way they did that was to meet folks at the various entry places and they knew, like mister so-and-so lived on the corner. There was one black family. I think he was a shoe repair person. Everybody knew who he was, where he lived. There were pictures in Mission Mill 01:49:00of this one little boy who attended school. They did not have a separate but equal place for him to attend school, so you'll see a picture of him sitting with a group of not Hispanic, all Caucasians, because there was no school for him.

RK: By the time you came to Salem, then there was how much difference?

GH: I came to Salem. First I went to Portland. When I came to Salem, I would say that maybe there was 1% of African Americans. The story was told. I did not get a ticket to move on to the next town. I had attended a workshop at Seaside and 01:50:00someone at the school, a certain school here, had problems. The superintendent was in one of my workshops, and he said-I was saying to the group of folks in my workshop that education is a commodity. We have to sell it. He said, I have a school that you could not tell them that education is a commodity. They feel that whatever they want it's okay. So, you had schools that had lots of new curriculum, ideas, innovations, books, because the community had lots of money. 01:51:00Then you had people who had little money, poor curriculum, etc., because that's all they could afford. This particular school had people on one side of the street who were pig farmers and on the other side you had people, beautiful houses, $350,000, etc. It was a divide. People didn't get along very well. So the superintendent wondered if I could come and teach folks how to get along in 01:52:00this particular school. Jokingly, I said, I could teach crippled crabs how to walk with crutches. That was a joke. I said I'd come here. It was 1958. I was coming here to work for one year. That school who didn't have a racial problem, they had an economic problem. My purpose was to come and help them get along, accept the instructions of the board, and not try to control the school. After one year, I made some changes. I've been here ever since.

RK: What were the changes?

GH: Changes were that the school would not be run by the community, but the whole district made rules. If we set them on a library and you could use the money allocated to you to build a community, a playground, so that the community would have. It took us a year, but what we did was put maps out and say, what would you like to have? How would you like your school to look? We had fundraisers, and only one thing I didn't approve of. Somebody suggested that the fundraiser would be to have the principal as part of a dunk, I said no way 01:54:00[laughs]. That was not a good idea.

RK: I could understand that.

GH: Which it was some kind of apparatus where the person sat on a board or something and you could hit a certain.

RK: Would they be dunked in the water?

GH: They'd be dunked in the water. That was not my idea of fun. So, I got the custodian to do that for me. Instead, I washed cars. You could get your car washed by the principal [laughs] for such and such an amount.

RK: So, the theory was getting the people of two different economic groups doing things together.

GH: Exactly. Those pig farmers cooked their heads off and they were selling pies. One guy had, oh, I forgot about-this guy was raising fighting cocks. You 01:55:00weren't supposed to raise those. It was illegal. So, they made chicken soup, and they sold bowls. He killed his fighting cocks and they made chicken soup. That was good. That raised money. Those kinds of things happened but it brought groups together, working together, and raising money together. it worked for a while.

RK: Is there any more things that you were doing in the Civil Rights Movement?

GH: Civil Rights Movement. I did work with signing people up so that they could vote. That was one of the big things I remember. Hm. Getting votes. That was the biggest thing. I was not a part of any lines where you marched. I did see Martin Luther King who came to speak to the churches and tell us about some of these movements, but all the places I stayed. I had left New Orleans, so I was not a part of that movement. My biggest contribution was getting folks to vote.

RK: You mentioned for the work for the NAACP. What have you been doing with them?

GH: Now I'm not doing hardly anything for anyone. I'm too old.

RK: But before?

GH: I carried my same skill-getting folks signed up. Getting money into organizations. Fundraisers. Contributed things for auctions.

RK: From the time you arrived in Oregon to now, do you think that there have been any positive changes in race relations? Negative changes? How would you-what's your vision?

GH: It's not my vision.

RK: Your perception?

GH: My perception, almost miniscule. Yes. It kind of depends on... hmm. Let me 01:58:00tell you the Epistle of Gerry. What I see is that there's so many ways to maintain segregation, okay? If I decide that I'm going to change the housing situation. I want Portland, take Portland, to be White, a White area, White neighborhood around 40th where my mother used to live. So what did they do? They put commercial stores all on Martin Luther King, all on Alberta. What can you 01:59:00do, because the Blacks who lived in those areas had to go somewhere else. Years and years ago, they went to the place that got flooded. Now, they're moving out of the Alberta back to the St. John areas. Those areas that you could end up with more ghettos. I don't know. It seems that integration seems to be so much based on economics until if you've got money, you can integrate my neighborhood. 02:00:00You may not have the voting rights. You may not have the economic power, but you can live here. Maybe a poor person to ask. But that's what I've observed. I have observed if you-where's the big money? It's in sports now. Let's think about that. If all of our billionaires, millionaires are not academic, are not part of academia. They're not at University of Oregon, what kind of kids are they going to produce? Little kids with fast running legs and big hands? [Laughs] to manage basketballs? Big shoulders for football? What's going to happen to the brainiacs 02:01:00that we need? The scientists? The mathematicians? I have no answer. I'm glad that death will take me away soon, you know? Because I'm not seeing that somebody's coming forth that's going to be the drum major of academics. I worry about that. I don't know. I'm sad. I'm sad for you younger persons, because there's so many ways to keep you out of academia, to keep you out of the money 02:02:00making epsilon to keep from buying. You can buy the big houses, but who's going to clean them? Who's going to... I don't know.

I worry about my nation. I worry about somebody who's not going to have this insight, the power, the power, the power is not shared. What's happening to the young people? They're not seeing the need. In my day, be a part of green beret, red beret, fight to get your name up there. We're not having that group. I don't 02:03:00know. I wish I could tell you that you've got to get education as mantle, as the top thing, as what we should all aspire for. With education comes power. I think.

RK: I agree.

GH: [Laughs].