TIAH EDMUNSON-MORTON: So, go ahead and introduce yourself.
CONNIE KARR: Okay. So, I'm Connie Karr. I'm the certification director here at
Oregon Tilth. I've had the pleasure of working for Oregon Tilth. Last year was my 20th year-TEM: Congratulations.
CK: -here. And so yeah, now I work as a certification director. I really oversee
the aspects of certification, people, accreditation, finances, and all that fun stuff.TEM: So, we are in the Oregon Tilth offices in Corvallis, Oregon.
CK: Yeah. Beautiful offices.
TEM: It is January 11th, 2019. My name is Tiah Edmunson-Morton, and Melissa is
also here.MELISSA THIBEAU: Hello.
TEM: Where were you born?
CK: I've traveled so far. I was born in Salem, Oregon [chuckles] and- so far
away from Corvallis, where we are now [laughter], and then I was brought home to our family farm in Independence, Oregon.TEM: Oh, okay.
CK: And that's just - for people who may not know - that's just about 25, 30
minutes north of here- of Corvallis. So, I'm definitely born, raised local Oregonian. Did a little bit of traveling in my life-TEM: Oh goodness. Hold on, let me- Now we're going to have- sorry. I forgot to
start the audio recorder. Okay [laughter], we're starting the audio recorder. Connie Karr, Tiah Edmunson-Morton, Corvallis, Oregon.CK: Corvallis. Yeah, so you just want me to pick up my life story?
TEM: Yeah, go ahead and start now [laughter].
CK: Grew up on a family- Born in Salem, grew up on a family farm in
Independence, Oregon, and now working for Oregon Tilth in Corvallis. So, so far, I've traveled. There was travel events throughout college years or when I was a little bit younger, and it's actually an interesting story led to Oregon Tilth. When I was first hired, I actually left work in Tilth for six months and moved to Ireland, to follow my dreams of... a guy, and thought that was going to work out. Well, it didn't. And of course, when I came back, I was just like, I made a mistake. I need to get a job back there. That was a mistake. And so, I begged and pleaded for my job back [laughs]. Been here ever since.TEM: So, your family farmed grass seed. What else did they grow on the family farm?
CK: There was a little bit of corn. It was a conventional farm and grass seed
was primarily the staple. That's what we did. Ryegrass, fescue, orchard grass. There was a little bit of corn and other grains like wheat and barley, but it was primarily grass seed. I started working on the family farm when- I think my dad pulled me out of bed one morning when I was 11 and said, "You're going to come work in the seed cleaning plant." And started packing and carrying 50-pound bags, brushing screens, and the seed cleaning and all that kind of stuff throughout- until I could leave when I was 18. I would work out there every summer whenever my dad needed me on any of the equipment. Combines, swathers, tractors, plowing, raking, whatever it is.TEM: Was it a multigenerational farm?
CK: Mm-hmm.
TEM: Did your grandpa, grandma-
CK: Yep. My grandma and grandpa started it, and my dad expanded it. And at that
time when I was growing up it was about 3,000 acres in the valley here-TEM: Wow, that's a good size farm.
CK: -of different grass seeds.
TEM: Yeah.
CK: It was fairly a good size. And it was still real hard. You know, when I'm
growing up, I was always out in the country. I wanted to be in town with friends. It was so hard to get to them. It was the typical teenage girl, and it took- But what I did see is the family farm troubles, especially through the '80s, grass seed prices really dropping, and a lot of struggles. I remember my dad coming home and sitting at the dinner table smelling like chemicals. Just a very strong, potent smell, and him complaining about headaches. And I never really, at a young age, would make those correlations, but now I do, and have those memories as that might have had something to do with all of his headaches. But yeah, multigenerational farm. My sister actually now works on the farm helping him. It's not as many acres anymore. He's really downsized because of the grass seed prices. And now he's focusing on moving everything into hazelnuts.TEM: Oh, yes. Yes, again, I grew up in Eugene and I remember when the hazelnut
fields, the filbert fields - orchards - got smaller and smaller, and now it seems like they're... It's kind of exciting.CK: Yeah, it's a real good opportunity there for hazelnuts now.
TEM: Yeah.
CK: It's interesting to look back and think of the evolution of that family farm
and how it was really grown big and run by family and locals. Worked really hard on it, and then over the years, getting smaller and smaller and really changing the production style and the production system, and the impacts it's had on my family.TEM: Yeah. Will your sister take it over?
CK: I hope so [crosses fingers].
TEM: [Laughs] No pressure, sister [laughs].
CK: I would love to help her, and I've actually talked to her about this
[chuckles], urging her to- because she's really the one that knows how to run the farm, especially this production of hazelnuts. I don't, and I would love to help her, and I would love to see at least a portion of it transition to organic if possible, so we're scheming a little bit and talking about the future. But at the same time, it's kind of sad to even think about taking that over. It means loss of my parents. But...TEM: Yeah. What about- I mean is there a sense of that family farm-ness, that it
would be this kind of expectation, even for the generation coming after you? Do you see- You have a couple of kids who are still young-ish. They-CK: Teenage boys.
TEM: They're young-ish-ish [laughter]. I mean is that part of the family- I
don't want to say legacy because that sounds really sort of dramatic, but is that part of the family expectation?CK: We definitely want to keep that farm in our family throughout the next 10
generations, if we could, and if we can. And my children have no desire [laughs] to run that farm. And in fact, the last couple years I have made them go out and work on the family farm since my dad needed their help moving irrigation pipe, or planting the new trees, pruning the trees, or whatever, and they really don't like it. But I think it's a learned appreciation. I didn't like it when I was working out there either. I was a teenager. Who likes to work as a teenager? So, I hope that they maybe grow to aspire to that. If not, my sister's son is definitely destined to be a farmer. He's younger. He's into it. It's all he talks about, is tractors and John Deere. He works out there and loves every second of it. Tries every machine.TEM: When I first started doing interviews with hop farmers, I would ask them
what they did in their spare time, their extracurricular activities, and they loved to laugh about that because their-CK: Like "what?" [laughs]
TEM: -life was the farm [laughter]. So, I use this as my caveat, to say what
were some of your- Did you have extracurricular activities, things that you like to do in school, or when you were growing up when you were younger that maybe weren't farm related?CK: Yeah. I like to play sports. I'm a big sports enthusiast. And I was really
into school. Social, friends, cheerleader, and so really wanted to be involved with the social aspects of school, and those were kind of my hobbies. And it was kind of hard to be that social when I was six miles outside, in the country, no access to a vehicle. Kind of hard to ride your bike six miles [laughter] on gravel in the town. I learned that the hard way a couple times. Just got to get into town [laughter], my bike on the gravel fell over a few times, had a bunch of scrapes and bruises. But yeah, that's really- really wanted that social aspect.TEM: Yeah. What about- A farm that size, I imagine that neighbors are really far away?
CK: Mm-hmm.
TEM: Did you- Was there a kind of outside-of-town farm community of kids that
were your age?CK: Not many. I remember two, and they were about two miles up the gravel road.
And so, when I finally got old enough to where my dad would allow me to drive the four-wheelers, or the three-wheelers at the time, then we would drive. We would meet up in the fields with our three-wheelers to hang out. You know, cause trouble in the forest or whatever it is.TEM: Yeah. That sounds fun [laughs].
CK: Yeah.
TEM: It's like driving golf carts.
CK: Yeah, exactly [laughs]. It was really a move up from the bicycle, I'll tell
ya [laughter].TEM: Especially on the road.
CK: Yeah.
TEM: What was Independence like during that time? What are things that you
remember about Independence?CK: I remember a lot of businesses closing. I remember a lot of for lease signs
or for sale signs in the windows... Yeah, I remember there used to be this old fountain. It was called Taylor's Fountain, where they would have milkshakes and French fries, burgers, stuff like that. And that was sort of one of the foundational businesses on the corner in downtown Independence that closed when I was a kid.I remember- You know, Monmouth and Independence are kind of the same town.
They're right next to each other. There was a little mercantile called Criders that everybody went to. That's where you got your tools, like just around-the-house tools. You'd get clothes, shoes, socks. That was all in one little mercantile. And that closed down, and that was a big impact because now it's like well, where do you go? And we started having to drive to other towns to get access to those things.TEM: Which must have been Salem.
CK: Salem, Dallas, or- Monmouth/Independence is kind of right in the middle
between Salem and Corvallis, so we would go to either one. But now, actually, the towns are reinvigorating. Their stores are coming back, and a lot of the people that are developing in those towns are bringing back a lot of that history. So, you actually see the Taylor's Fountain was- been closed down for years and years and years, just a big empty building, and actually one of the gentlemen who worked at my dad's farms, was friends with us, worked to re-instill, re-update the building and resell it. And it's now a champagne and desserts place that just finally reopened, I think after 15 or 20 years.TEM: Yeah.
CK: Been a long time. So, it's really fun.
TEM: It's been really fast there. I mean I feel like in the past three or four
years, it's really changed a lot. That there's-CK: They've gotten a lot of new businesses in there and it's starting to become
kind of like the weekend destination stop for people for from out of town coming to Independence, which is just unheard of for me [laughter], like why would you want to come to Independence? But they come, and they travel because there's breweries and wineries and antique stores, a couple of really nice restaurants, and they're actually building a new hotel right down on the riverfront.My family goes back generations to Independence, and if you ever drive downtown
Independence and you look at some of the old buildings up on top, my maiden name is Sperling and there's actually the Sperling building. And I think it was my great-great... three greats or two greats, I can't remember, uncle who actually was one of the original people to arrive in Independence and start building out the downtown area. So, the family goes way back generations in the town.TEM: What about, to slightly put my other hat on, my hop hat, when you were
growing up, was there a sense of how important Independence was in the history of hops in Oregon? Like did you-CK: No.
TEM: [laughs]
CK: Oh, no.
TEM: [still laughing]
CK: No.
TEM: Nope, not at all [laughs].
CK: I'm very aware now, and I've actually learned a lot since, but growing up
there was never a Hop and Heritage Festival like there is now. It was never out there. And my grandparents never even really talked to me about it until I went off to college and school, and I was doing some family research and doing farming studies and I was talking to my grandpa and he was like, "Well, yeah. You realize me and your grandma were hop farmers, right?" [laughs]. No! Why would you grow hops? Who did you sell them to? And they were actually, some of the fields that my family still owns and runs, were hop fields a long, long time ago.He showed me pictures of them out working the hops and harvesting the hops with
their old 1957 Ford pickup or something. So, that kind of started me to understand and relate to Independence and its history and the important history that town has had in agriculture in the Pacific Northwest, or in this valley here. And it's really cool.TEM: Yeah. Well, and I'm excited that the Hop and Heritage Festival is back
because I think it is such a very unique place in that agricultural history. It's such a special commodity crop.CK: And now Rogue Farms has reinvigorated their fields out there, created this
space for people to come visit and learn. It's really cool.TEM: Interesting. Where did you go to college?
CK: OSU. Yeah, I thought- You know, of course, growing up on the family farm and
my social aspects, I wanted to get really far away [laughter]. I got to get out of here. Went all the way to Corvallis.TEM: Would have been hard on your bike.
CK: Yeah [laughter].
TEM: It would have been hard on your four-wheeler.
CK: And I was like, I'm not studying agriculture. I'm not going to become a
farmer. I don't want anything to do with agriculture. And I didn't really know what it was, but I started taking all these classes in public health, business, just anything that wasn't farming related. And about two years into the program, I was like what am I doing? What am I doing? Farming is in my blood. Actually, now that I've had a little bit of a break from it and I've grown up and matured a little bit, I have a lot of respect for it, and that is in my heart and that's what I need to go to. And so, the next term I went and met with a counselor and said this is what I want to switch to, and we determined just general ag sciences would be the way to go until I could determine my direct field of study.TEM: What year did you start at OSU?
CK: '93.
TEM: What are some of the things you remember about campus generally, during
your exploratory two years of going to different buildings?CK: I remember the smell of the dorm rooms.
TEM: [laughs]
CK: And it's really funny because I'll walk into those dorm rooms now; my nephew
was staying in the same dorms, and I walk, [sniffs], and it brings back the memories right away. It still smells the same.TEM: What dorm did you live in?
CK: I don't remember the name of it. It's right there on- right across from the
administrative building.TEM: Oh, so- What's it called?
MT: McNary?
TEM: McNary?
CK: Yeah, it sounds about right.
TEM: Yeah, that complex.
CK: Really old. I remember a lot of my friends that I took classes with. The
College of Ag Sciences, we created a little tight-knit group. I remember being one of very few females in that college, in that study. I remember some of my professors. God, that feels like it was so long ago. I remember floundering around a lot and trying to figure out what is the specific area of study I want to take, and I couldn't decide.I remember doing this lab for soil science and I was like oh, I'm thinking soil
science is going to be it. I did this lab, and I was like this is not what I want to do [laughter]. Because it was just so intricate and so much math and chemistry-based that it just- well, it was hard, for one, but there was just too laboratory, soil science-based for me. And so, what I finally decided on, you know, I just want to stick with this general. I really like this general agriculture experience where I can pick from rangeland resources and some ag business management, leadership, and I can sort of self-select the things that I really want to learn about, and interest me. And so, I stuck with that.TEM: I do want to ask you a question about what you said, that- one of the only
women in that program. What was that like?CK: Well, for me at the time, it was totally fine [laughter]. I loved it! [laughter].
TEM: Positive experience?
CK: All the people, like my study groups, it was great. But I couldn't- At the
time, it did not really occur to me why. I didn't understand. So, I grew up- My family farm I grew up on, it was me and I have three sisters. There's no boys. So, for me, I've always been around women in agriculture. In fact, the men were- There weren't as many men for my- in my growing up. So, it didn't really occur to me. I was just like why aren't there more women? This is awesome. What's the problem, ladies? Let's go!But afterwards, now, and maturing more and working in this industry, I am much
more aware of some of the inclusion issues with women in agriculture and the challenges that they face. So, now it makes more sense to me.TEM: Yeah.
CK: Not that I like it, but [laughs]-
TEM: Yeah. Well, no, I think it's-
CK: But I understand it better.
TEM: Yeah. And I think it's at that- certainly, the mid-'90s were a time of
change too, on the campus, certainly, these issues being brought up in the mid-'90s with much more frequency.CK: Yep.
TEM: What about social life on campus? Were you in a sorority? Clubs?
CK: I was.
TEM: I was going to say clubs, fraternities. That didn't- [laughs] any clubs?
CK: Yeah. Like I said, going back, I like- That was what I was missing as a
young kid. I wanted social, so [snaps fingers] first thing in college, I joined a sorority. I wanted to meet people. Loved every aspect of it. I actually became the social coordinator for my sorority. I was planning events and dinners and parties and stuff because I just wanted to have that really fun social experience. I think I might have had a little too much fun of a social experience until I finally got into my groove and focused on my studies.TEM: You were in your exploratory period.
CK: I really was. Yeah.
TEM: It was- That's what college is for [laughs], right?
CK: And growing up. You've got to figure out who you are and what you want to
do, and a lot of people think that you have to have that determined when you go or figure it out when you're there, but it may be two or three years into it before you figure it out.TEM: What about food? What- Was that something- Certainly, Oregon Tilth isn't
all about food, but you certainly have settled into a groove here that has a lot to do with food that is produced.CK: Mm-hmm.
TEM: So, I'm curious about things like the things that people ate, the things
that you made. What were some family food traditions, and then what carried on to when you had your first ability to make your meals as an adult?CK: There are definitely some of my mom's favorite family recipes that I
continue to make for my family now. Her enchilada casserole is the bomb [laughter] and it is super easy to make, and so it's great for me. When I get home from work, I can make it in 15 minutes, put it in the oven, and by 7:00 o'clock we're all eating for two days, and it's amazing. Her strawberry pizza pie, which is a family favorite, it is nothing but sugar, cream cheese, and whipped cream, and strawberries on top, with a pizza pie crust. So, it's a family favorite.When I was growing up, there wasn't a whole- There wasn't a focus on food like
healthy food, by any means. It was definitely we're going to eat what's in front of us, and we're going to eat what we get. And so, we would get a lot of our protein sources, like meat, from my uncle who had a beef ranch over in eastern Oregon. And we would eat a lot of ground hamburger, for example, because that's what we had. Or we would eat a lot of- When it was corn season, if we were growing corn that year, oh boy would you get so sick of corn on the cob, you could just [mimics gagging] [laughter], like somebody who's had to go from having to go pick it, harvest it, shuck it, eat it for like weeks, all the time. A lot of corn.So, it was just what was available to us. It wasn't a really rich farm by any
means, so we really conserved on the food that we were eating and stuff. We didn't eat out a lot. So yeah, so some of those recipes, some of those special events, what my mom would make, I'm not sure where she got the recipes. I call them my mom's recipes now, but I still make them, and my kids still love them. Not as often, because they're not quite so healthy [laughter] and I'm a little bit more aware of health and calories and any sort of other contamination that may come with the food. But we still- Yeah, we still indulge.TEM: When you were in college- Or maybe let me ask this a different way and not
imply that it started in college. When did you start being interested in environmentalism and the kind of- Where do you locate the kernel of what you're doing now?CK: I can really trace it back to sort of two kernels to what I'm doing now, and
there was - in college - there was a- I forget the title, I think Sustainable Agriculture in the New Age, or I don't even know what it was titled. But that course had a significant impact on me. I remember sitting in the... I remember sitting and taking the class and just saying this makes sense. This is very logical, talking about soil structure and maintaining the soil for- It all comes from the soil to grow the plants. It's not about treating the plants; about maintaining the soil. That just made so much sense to me. It's like "Duh," and it was so the opposite of what I was used to in agriculture.What I was used to growing up was you treat the plant. You work the soil, you
work the soil, you plow it just to get furthermore to the point where it's like dust. And if a windstorm comes in, there goes half of your field over there. The philosophy that I grew up with was treat the plant. Here it is. Okay, it's yellow, spray something on it. Okay, the yields aren't looking good. Spray something on it [laughter]. It was like put something on the plant. So, that class was just like, "Duh." If you really treated the soil well and you really grew your soil, you would end up with healthy plants, not have to use all the chemicals. That makes sense. So, that kind of started me on taking more classes in that area, learning a little bit more.When I left college, I- At that time, you looked for jobs in the newspaper.
There wasn't any online listings. There was no Craigslist or Indeed.com or anything. I was looking through the paper. I was like man, I need a job [laughter]. I don't even care, just give me something in agriculture, or heck, if it's in retail, I don't even care. I just need a job. And I remember reading through, I think it was the Statesman Journal, and the word "Tilth" stood out for me, and I was like Oregon Tilth, who's that? I don't even care. I was like "tilth," though, I remember my grandpa using that word.I mean most people here, most people don't know what the word "tilth" means, and
I didn't know what it meant at the time. But I just remember my grandpa using the word "tilth" in reference to when he was talking to me as a kid, in reference to the soil. He was like, [picks up drink coaster and rubs it like soil] "Oh, that's really good tilth, you know," and talk about it and be all excited. So, I thought well, maybe it has something to do with agriculture. I don't really care. I just need a job [laughs].I applied and I got a call, and I went up to Tualatin for an interview. And it
was the strangest interview I've ever been in. I walked into this office and there was like three ladies in there, and this lady called me in. She's like, "Come, sit down here." "Oh, okay." Sit down, and she just started talking to me. I was like well, this- I was all prepared [claps hands] [laughter]. I had my notebook, I had my resume, references, I had my list of questions. I was so prepared for this formal interview, and we just had a conversation. We just talked about- like we are now. "Are you on the farm? What are you doing? I want to get to know you." And she goes, "Okay, go talk to Patty." I was like okay, second interview? Like what am I doing? [laughter].I go over and talk to Patty, and Patty goes, "I have a computer problem. Do you
know how to create a folder?" I'm like "Uh, yeah. You just do that, folder." [Gasps theatrically] "Oh my god, that's brilliant!" [laughter]. And I walked out and they're like, "So, I think you're hired." I'm like "What?! For what? What am I doing?" [laughter].TEM: Making folders [laughs].
CK: And they're like "Well, we are moving our office to Salem in a few weeks. We
need somebody down in that area who can start as a Farm Program coordinator. You grew up on a farm, seem intelligent enough. We want you to start as our Farm Program coordinator. What's that look like? What does that mean? There was no job description for it, and they just said, "Show up this day, this time, and we'll tell you what to do." Okay, and that's how I got started.And the woman who I first interviewed with and was just having that
conversation, her name was Yvonne Frost, and she's the other major impact in my life and history of my- sort of my mentor who taught me, who got me engaged, and who really taught me the value of organic farming and organic food and inspired me to stay and do what I do now.TEM: What did you do on your first day?
CK: Oh my gosh, first day is the funniest story. First day, I walk in, and they
were still all moving in, like boxes everywhere. I think there was like three computers in the whole organization. There was one computer they kept for accounting, one that Yvonne had, but it was this super ancient, old Macintosh that was still black and white. And I don't think it ever really came on, but she had it [laughter]. And then there was one other one that was like sitting there in this box, and they're like, "Well, set that computer up." And I'm like okay. I know how to put in plugs. I'll plug 'em and start it up.They're like, "Okay, sit down. We're going to show you how to run our database
now." And so, I helped them set up the computer, did a little tutorial on the database while somebody else was plugging in the phones, and they said, "Well, now, can you go sit over there and answer the phone?" I'm like, what? I don't even know what I'm doing here. You want me to go answer the phone? And my attitude was just dive in, and I did. I started answering the phone. I don't remember the first call, but I remember it being a farmer who wanted to know what a certification was. He was very nice. So basically, after every phone call it was just like, "Hold, please" [laughter]. "Can somebody tell me?" Like I don't know, like I just [stammers], and I just learned by trial of fire. There was no real training.And then the very- I think it was the very next day or two days later, they all
left, and they all went and traveled to this big tradeshow in California called Expo West. And I remember coming in and they were all packed up, and it was very short like, "Here's the key" [laughter], "We're going to Expo West. Good luck." And I'm like, I got this. I so got this. And then I don't know if I did a very good job, but-TEM: You're still here [laughs].
CK: But the office didn't get robbed. No computers crashed, and nothing really
broken, and nobody died. So...TEM: Yeah.
CK: I managed.
TEM: What did you think organic certification was then? What did you-
CK: I had no idea.
TEM: How did you learn?
CK: By fire. Trial by fire. Yeah, it was- One of the first things I did after
they left was I actually broke out a copy of- at that time, it was Oregon Tilth's private standards. There was no government regulatory oversight, national standard. It was Oregon Tilth standards that Lynn Coody had wrote. So, I took that home every night and just read. Read it, read it again, read it again. And I would just read it until- I don't want to say I memorized it, but until I at least learned how to maneuver through it and learned some of the concepts of what's going on. But there was never any sit-down and somebody taught me how to do it. It was I read the standards or worked with farmers and tried to understand how that really related to what they were doing every day in the field.TEM: Did you- Were you doing site visits? That sounds like a weird phrase, but
were you going out to farms-CK: I wasn't. What I was doing as the Farm Program coordinator was really sort
of like an administrative role in the office assigning the inspections out to inspectors, providing the inspectors with their packets, getting their reports back in, and funneling those through a reviewer. Then the reviewer would tell me if it was okay to issue the certificate, so I would issue the certificate. So, I was kind of that administrative middle person, and I didn't really go out into the field.I finally went out into the field I think about six to eight months after I
started, just to see what an inspection even looked like or entailed. But I would work with the inspectors themselves by getting them the packets and seeing if they would go do these inspections. And they would tell me lots of stories, like, "Oh, so-and-so really liked talking to you on the phone," [laughter] or, "Hey, so-and-so, his 50 cows are doing good." You know, so I would hear how those things were going just through talking to the inspectors, and it was really nice to have that connection with the inspectors. You can really learn a lot. They are so critical in the certification process and what they're doing. They're just amazing people.TEM: I want to ask a question about what surprised you, but I feel like that is
a kind of amorphous question. But were there things, after having grown up with this very hands-on family experiential learning, were there things that working on an office side of it that were surprising to you, or maybe the opposite; that were confirming and that you understood why things happen the way that they happened? Even though your family was a conventional farm, I assume operations generally-CK: Yeah, you always-
TEM: Generally, stuff grows [laughs].
CK: Yeah. I can't really think of anything particularly. I think... I don't want
to say farming is farming. Whether you're a conventional or organic farmer, whatever type of farmer you are, you generally experience the same challenges. Mother Nature, weather, the cost of fuel, prices, tractors, inputs, whatever you're going to use, all those things are a major challenge no matter what style of farming you use. And so, I was very familiar with those, and I think one thing that really helped me to be successful was being so intimately familiar with that and going through those same challenges myself. And sitting and living with my parents who, you know, going through tears not knowing when are we going to have any money, that's- and I could relate. So, when I'm talking to farmers on the phone, I could really empathize and relate to any of the challenges that they have, and know if there's a storm coming, that's a really big deal to a farmer, depending on the time of year it is, but that's hard. That's scary.TEM: What about- how did your family react? What did they think-
CK: Ha.
TEM: -when you said this is my path, once you-
CK: This is what I'm doing?
TEM: Once you got back from Ireland and settled in.
CK: Oh my gosh. They thought I was nuts. I was known as the family hippie. I
would come home to family events and, man, my grandpa, he would come up right to me, say, [in deep mimicked voice] "How that's organic farming business going, you hippie?" [laughter]. [In normal voice] you know. And they would kind of make their little jabs at me. And what's really interesting was at first, when I started in 1998, here at Oregon Tilth, there were about three or four, maybe five years I would get those little jabs and the hippie, and they're like, "Oh, that's not going anywhere." It was just a fad, like small potatoes. To now, it is totally changed.Now I go home, it is serious business. My dad wants to know what's really going
on. And I'll go to neighborhood events and all the farmers come, and there's farmers that are certified organic now where before if I would have one to those events, the area picnics we had called the Parker Picnics, where everybody comes once a year, they would all be like, "Oh, that organic, yeah, no [mimics grumbling]" and just sort of downplay it and jab at it. But now, it's completely changed.TEM: What do you think the shift point was? And again, the answer can be there
was not a shift point, but it's a more slow evolution. But is there something that you kind of pinpoint, whether that's something like government regulation, the role of Oregon Tilth, the realization that people have that this is smart for the planet [laughs]?CK: I think the last is the key. It's at some point there was a perspective
shift that traditional, conventional farming, or whatever you want to call it, isn't working. It wasn't working for the people. And at some point, they shifted and said, I'm going to try out this other thing, and it's working, and it feels good, and it feels like I am managing my home, managing my field for my future. It feels better. There's also the government coming in, in 2002, and making it a federal standard. Did a lot to help grow the movement, if you ask me. I think it really created sort of a validation stamp, both on a national and international level. But I didn't really see that being the turning point as far as perspective. The national standards were really important.It's also the other key thing I see is, you know when you really look back to
1998, or prior to 2002, really the only place you could really find organic food in the marketplace was specialized stores; co-ops, farmers markets. It wasn't really that accessible to most people, and over the years, we've really seen that change, where now it's accessible pretty much everywhere, to all- in all stores. It's not accessible to every, all people, because there's still food insecurity issues, but it's really mainstream. In every store, you can find it. Just exposure to people, I think putting it in front of their faces and making them wonder and go research well, what does this organic mean? What's this going to do for me? They make their choices. They start purchasing, which just has created that demand more and more. But just getting it in front of people is key.TEM: I wonder too about the role of... easing certification, that having
organizations that can explain, that has staff to explain to farmers and growers what that means, and I know you have- that's become, certainly, your role now [laughs].CK: Certification accessibility, right? Yeah.
TEM: That's your title, so I guess I could say more than your role [laughter].
It is your title. I'm sort of curious how questions changed over time so that you were talking on the phone to people from the first day, and you certainly talk to people now. How have the questions changed, and the- I will leave it at that.CK: Well... [stammers] kind of the questions change within the growing market
areas, and a lot with the resources that are already out there. So now- When I first started, the resources, the training, the ability for a farmer to find out how to grow organically on their own wasn't there. They needed somebody to help them. So, we would get a lot more. I would spend a lot of time on the phone just trying to help them find a resource or somebody they could talk to that could support them. And now, the resources are so- they're just so widespread. Between OSU themselves, ATTRA, just online accessibility to thousands and thousands of resources in organic, farmers have more- a bit more ability at their fingertips to learn how to farm organically.Certification itself, how to get certified, what are the steps to certification,
are out there, but it's still that thing that we get a lot of questions on still. It's like can we make this easier? Is it really, I got to do all this paperwork and I've got to go through this inspec- yes, you really do [laughter]. Sucks.But yeah, accessibility has just completely changed in what's out there. OMRI
was not- When I first started at Oregon Tilth, there wasn't even- I think OMRI was just getting started and there was very few materials or tools that farmers could even use as inputs. Now their list is thousands and thousands.TEM: Well, and I think about the- As you were talking, I was thinking about the
real [stammers] the fact that people can be out in the fields and have this information on phones.CK: Yep.
TEM: That that, that level-
CK: You can just ask Siri, now.
TEM: Yeah. That that's a... so fundamentally different [laughs].
CK: So fundamentally different, yeah. That has definitely revolutionized, and I
think that's also helped grow the movement. That's why we're seeing so much growth in the area. It's not only demand, but just accessibility, ability for people to learn how to, the importance of, and why. It's out there. It's all over.TEM: How about the way that you've answered those questions, how has that
changed? What are some of your- the ways that your orientation, belief structure, how has that evolved as you learned more?CK: You know, it's really funny. We always get this, and I always have gotten
this, from day one even till today. "Do I really have to fill out all this paperwork?"TEM: [Chuckles]
CK: That's the number one question, and you always hear from producers; that's
so much paperwork. It used to be my answer was, "Yeah, it's kind of- this totally sucks, doesn't it? Like it's a lot. I understand it, but it's a lot. I totally- yes." To now, I really try to answer it in a way like, "It's not that much, and if you think about it, it's very similar to filling out tax forms."There's a lot of questions that may be applicable, but these are questions, and
these are things that are going to help you as a farmer. They're going to help you really think about and strategize what is my pest control prevention. What's my pest prevention plan? It's about preventing pests, not just controlling them. You think through- it helps you think through how to be- improve your farm system.TEM: So, the act of filling out the paperwork sort of requires you to have a
plan which makes things...CK: Which makes you think it through.
TEM: Yeah.
CK: So, now it's I've changed to- I guess it's more of an appreciation for the
paperwork and being able to explain to people the value of it, rather than just saying, "Yeah, it's a lot" [laughter].TEM: Paperwork everywhere.
CK: Yeah.
TEM: When you think about how Oregon Tilth has expanded in your 20 years, both
from a geographic standpoint, but also a people standpoint, what has it been like to work in both an industry that expanded but also an organization that expanded?CK: So exciting. It has been such an exciting ride. And I'm not going to say the
ride's been all flowers and rainbows. There's definitely been some tough times, but man, if you look at just the clientele alone, from working with primarily a couple hundred Oregon-based farmers to start work- I remember the day when we started really expanding in the Midwest, and I remember my boss saying, "Well, here's the 50 new livestock applications in Iowa you're going to review." I had no- Livestock in Iowa? I don't know what they- Where is Iowa? [Laughter]. And so, it was just amazing to start to be on the phone. I'm talking to Iowa livestock producers now, and I'm getting to know them, what are their challenges. Are they different? Not really. Similar.And then, further years down the road, to start to work with producers in Mexico
or Latin America, for example. What are their challenges? What are they growing? And looking at cocoa production or bananas. I had no exposure to that, so it was really exciting to learn about the production systems that I had no experience in. And then the people here that work coming from, when I started, five staff, to now we're up to 70. And being there for every minute of that growth and the people that have come and gone and grown and left here to go out into the industry to even do bigger and better things, and making those connections. There's wonderful people that really care about agriculture and the environment that are within this industry, and a lot of them are right here.TEM: Who would you point out as some of those? Because part of- I mean, I like
learning about people as far as stories, but part of our job here today is to look at the story of Oregon Tilth. Who are some of the people that, when you think about the ones that stand out to you? And that can be somebody who was just here for a month or a year. Who are some of the people that you credit as being really important to the history of this organization?CK: Yeah, Yvonne Frost, who I mentioned before, I really give her a lot of
credit. Of course, Lynn and Harry MacCormack, founders of Oregon Tilth. I wouldn't- I'll recognize what they've done here. Gwendolyn Wyard is another one, OSU graduate as well. She worked here more recently, as I think it was like in 2000 to 2009 or '10, maybe 2011. Lose track of all the years.TEM: [Laughs]
CK: And now she's working on a more national level with the Organic Trade
Association as their, I think, vice president of policy development. So, she really started out as inspector, worked for Oregon Tilth, and worked her way up to more of a national level. There's a lot of inspectors that have worked with us. Jim Fullmer comes to mind as somebody who I used to work with a lot. He's still- he's in the local biodynamic and organic farmer as well, and he does- he runs- I'm not sure if you guys have heard of biodynamic agriculture as well, but he recently was- started and ran Demeter USA, who's a biodynamic certification agency. So, there's a lot of people here in the valley that have touchpoints to Oregon Tilth, whether as an inspector or an employee or a client that I really see as true advocates, rooted the beginning of organic. And they're still- it's part of their life still today.TEM: Yeah, it's interesting how interconnected, that when you do research to
prepare for interviews, that it's like [laughs]-CK: Everybody's all connected.
TEM: [unintelligible] [laughs]
CK: They all know each other.
TEM: Wait, are they- Is this [mumbles], yeah.
CK: Yeah. Worked with each other somewhere, some past- everybody has a story.
TEM: What are some of the challenge points that you remember from your career
here? What are some times that you would label as the difficulties?CK: Some- a few of them. Usually, whenever there's a transition period like when
a leader left, if you- When Yvonne retired, that was difficult. Right after that, I think Pete Gonzalves is another one I would mention as a leader, somebody who I really think is a mentor as well, after he left. So, when there's changes within leadership as an organization, those are always challenging.[Chuckles] just outside of people, implementing new systems, our database. In
2011, when we implemented a new database system to manage our certification, it just sort of tipped us all over on our heads, and we had to find our way back upright. Those are always challenging, I think for any business. But we really struggled with that here because we aren't database experts. We're organic certification experts, so that's going to be kind of hard.TEM: How do you mentor the next generation? What are some things that you-
Certainly, we are roughly the same age, so we're-CK: It's true
TEM: We're some time away from retirement [laughter].
CK: Yeah.
TEM: But what do you think about imparting to the generation that comes after us
that continues this work?CK: What I like to do is always make sure I'm making an impact, that they
understand the history of where organic came from and how we, as in Tilth, have evolved into that. I think it's important to understand the history so that you can understand where you're really going with it.TEM: What are the pieces of the history that you share with them? What is the-
CK: I share a lot about Oregon Tilth's history. I also like to share about just
my own history and my own experience, like I'm sharing here today, like growing up on a conventional farm and what I realized, that this doesn't make sense. This organic stuff does, so let's do- This makes sense to me. Let's do that, and hope that they see the same... hope that they see the same things. I like to get them really excited about the people, whether it's the clients and the farmers or processors, our staff, or just other industry organizations that I work with.The people are just great. The knowledge is there. And to just really get- help
them to know who the people are. Who were all the players? Where have they been? What do they do? I think that's really important as well. Those are things I highlight a lot and really just hope that they inspire- that they want to stay in this field and they want to continue to do this kind of work, organic certification work. There's only a few of us that have been in it for a couple decades.TEM: [Laughs]
CK: It's not usually the place that most people like to stay because it can
be... It feels fairly- it's not as romantic, I always say, as being a farmer, being out in the field, being outside, touching the soil. It's kind of romanticized in our day and age. Sitting there looking at a computer screen and giving people noncompliances isn't really romantic [laughter] if you know what I mean. And so-TEM: I don't think I've seen that movie [laughs].
CK: Yeah. So, a lot of people, it's not a certification itself, isn't a 20-year
or a career, long-time career choice for most people.TEM: I am curious about that, the romanticization- I feel like that's not quite-
[stammers]- Is that a word?CK: Mm-hmm.
TEM: The romanticizing of farming. And I feel like that is something that on one
hand is wonderful because it is reinvigorating, or invigorating, or re... people-CK: But isn't really romantic?
TEM: Yeah. Yeah, and I do wonder about that, that there is something sort of
romantic and wonderful about going to the farmers market and having all the beautiful produce. But...CK: But man, running and managing a farm, I don't know that I would put that in
the romantic co...TEM: Yeah.
CK: Definitely not romantic comedy, right?
TEM: Yeah [laughter].
CK: It's hard. And I was a- It's funny, over the years I've been to a lot of
conferences and trade shows, and I get approached a lot by really young gen- "I am in school." And, "What do you want to do? What's your dreams?" "I want to own my own farm." And first thing I do: "You know what that takes, right?" And really set them down and like, "Do you have access to land? Because that's going to be one of your first challenges if you don't," and, "Here's some of the challenges." You know, the cost of production, what you can [stammers] sell for, dependent on the weather and their nature.It's a great, great lifestyle. It's wonderful. I would never, ever take back a
second of how I was born, raised, and grew up. But you have to be really aware of the challenges that you're going to be facing if you feel like it's- It's not always what it looks like in the pictures. You know, the baskets of fruit and the nonsense in the background, and the snow. It's not what it's like [laughs] for most people.TEM: Clean food. Clean, beautiful.
CK: It's just beautiful and everything's perfectly riped, perfectly shaped, and
it's packed perfectly in these boxes for presentation. It's not what it's always going to be like for people.TEM: So, I'm curious about the access to land. And I know, certainly within the
Willamette Valley, we are geographically restricted by mountains. Is it fair to say that it's easier to get a smaller farm and that smaller farms are more conducive to organic farming, and that there is some accessibility for organic farming from that land standpoint? That may be like a gross generalization.CK: I don't know that there is any easy access to land anymore anywhere. And
definitely not to good production land. It may be easy to find cheap, affordable land out in the desert. You know you may not be able to grow anything, but whether it's small or big, the land accessibility, the cost of land, availability, zoning restrictions, all that, are having big impact. And it's just not accessible, whether you're organic or conventional or small or big or anything.TEM: Yeah. What are some of the things that you see or appreciate the next
generation bringing in?CK: New ideas. Fresh perspectives. Hope. [Laughter] you know, just so much hope
in the younger generation that it gives me hope that we're going to be okay.TEM: Yeah.
CK: I, just here internally, and I tell this when new employee- I get the honor
of giving new employees introduction - introduction to certification - and I always tell them the best thing they can do for me, and the best thing they can do for themselves, is just giving new ideas. Brainstorm. Something fresh, something new. Those of us like myself who have been here in this space for 20 years, we get a little biased. [In mock stern voice while lightly pounding on the table] "This is the only way to do this."TEM: [Laughs]
CK: And we can't think about any other way of doing it, but man, the new
generation, the new folks that are coming in, they can see something and just think, and ask the why. [Stammers] "Why you do it that way? Couldn't it be better?" They're always wanting to improve things, and it's so refreshing, and that's something that I always want to encourage. And we get a lot of just new perspectives and excitement. Those new people out there, they're so excited to just be talking to every farmer in the entire world, and they just love it. And they want to help every farmer in the entire world, and they just go home every day and just love what they did.TEM: How many people work in this office? Do all 70 work here?
CK: No.
TEM: No? Okay.
CK: Most- we actually had to- This was a challenge point in Oregon Tilth's
history, was when we actually finally allowed telecommute, 100%. That was hard to get to. It must have been back in 2006 or 2007 when we finally made the- because we used to have paper. Everything was on paper, inspection reports, applications. And we had file cabinets just- can you imagine, from here [indicating her seat] outside the building, just file cabinets stuffed full of paper? And so, you couldn't have employees work telecommute because you had to have access to the paper.We said, well, first thing we got to do is- we realized we needed to grow, and
that- We were in Salem at the time, and Salem's not exactly the place where people move to. So, we were having a really hard time finding qualified staff, and people were- it's getting to that point when gas prices were going up. They didn't want to drive from Corvallis to Salem anymore. We had to make a change so that we could keep staff and recruit more staff. So, we moved everything electronic. Sat there and scanned those file cabinets for days in and days out, and more days in and more days out.TEM: [Laughs]
CK: Finally got everything in there, and then we had to work through all the
systems and processes to get people to work with those files and update them, because you can't just take a piece of paper anymore and say, "This one's no longer applicable. It's this one." You had different processes for that. So, moving people to telecommute was huge, and now we are almost more people that telecommute than actually physically sit here in this office.The majority of all staff telecommute at least some portion, whether it's a
couple days a week, and then about half of our staff are in other states, all the way from Wisconsin to Hawaii. And they are all over, even Portland, California, and they all- So, only about I'd say 15 on a daily basis are actually here, physically in this office. But we are working with 70 staff. We have systems in place now. We can really communicate. Every meeting we have is always remote-accessible. Technology is very heavy around here now, just to allow for that.TEM: Do you feel like that changed the culture of the organization?
CK: Yep. Sure does. It really does.
TEM: For positive and...
CK: [Shrugs and gestures with both hands, indicating a little of both]. I don't
know. Yeah, it's different. I don't know that it's better or worse. It's just different and you have- It takes a little bit more active energy to stay engaged with your coworkers. Phone call, or we have this thing, it's like an instant messaging chat really focusing on communicating and reaching out, because you don't just see them when you walk by. You don't just say, "Hey, good morning. How's it going?" Or you see them in the lunchroom and talk about what they did last night. You don't do that to somebody who lives in California because they're kind of out of sight, out of mind, unless you intentionally reach out. So, it's very different.TEM: Do you have annual meetings where everybody gets together physically?
CK: Mm-hmm.
TEM: Is that part of the-
CK: Yeah.
TEM: That kind of- I imagine that becomes really important for company culture.
CK: Really important, yeah. At least once a year for like a week, and we come
in, bring everybody here, or to a retreat in Portland or somewhere else. Or we'll stay in overnight, and we're bonding together and working on trainings and programming and stuff. Really important. Never enough. You always want more.TEM: Yeah.
CK: You always want more time together.
TEM: That's good [laughs].
CK: But it's really amazing. You get everybody into a room, after five days of
that, 70 people - when I work here all day, I'm not used to 70 people - this feels a bit exhausting [laughter]. You're like, "Bye, people," like, "I need a break" [laughs]. I need a vacation [unintelligible under laughter] because it's a lot.TEM: Yeah.
CK: You don't even realize all the energy that's out there until it's all in one room.
TEM: I imagine too that it's a- that the people who want to work for Oregon
Tilth are really engaged too, and that that-CK: Super passionate and really engaged.
TEM: There's an intensity to that.
CK: Love their job, love- want to have an impact. You know, it's nonprofit.
We're a nonprofit, so our mission attracts people. That's what they want to do. They want to support and promote biologically sound, socially equitable agriculture. They want to do that. They want to do it every day, and they're really excited and passionate about it. One of the things that's kept me here for 20 years is being able to be around that every day. It's awesome.TEM: What other ways are you involved in the industry? I have a list of your
boards if you'd like for me to remind you [laughter] of all of the things that you've done.CK: Well, things have changed over the last year. I have done, boy, over the
years, been very involved with forming and working with Organicology, which is a big event that we do every two years, along with Organically Grown Company and Sustainable Food Trade Association, and Organic Seed Alliance. I'm really involved with that. I've also been on the Accredited Certifiers Association board for six years. I finally termed out on that a couple years ago. That was really exciting. I really believe that certifiers working together can have a bigger impact. I don't see other certifiers as competitors. Not everybody shares that same philosophy.TEM: [Laughs]
CK: My philosophy is that if we all worked- We're all in this game together.
Certification is really important, and there's enough business out there for everybody and we need to work together to get things done. So, ACA is one. Cascade Pacific RC&D I'm on the board of currently, and they're a local nonprofit that works in the environmental sector as well. And I might be forgetting some, but I like to get out there and get involved in board work whenever I can, and whenever I have the capacity and the time for. This last year I had to kind of minimize my involvement externally and really focus here.TEM: What about bees?
CK: I love bees!
TEM: [Laughs]
CK: Save bees! I didn't talk about Bee Better, yeah. That's been really
exciting. I've been actually working this morning. A couple of years ago, Xerces Society for Invertebrate Pest Control approached us and said hey, we wrote this standard for bees - well, for invertebrates; it's not just for bees - and we called it Bee Better because everybody's about saving the bees right now, and we want you, Oregon Tilth, to help us launch it. And it was such an honor to be asked as the exclusive, only certifier to do this brand-new thing.You know, when we started getting into the standards and reading what the
requirements are and what we were going to be dealing with, it was mind-opening for all of us, and exciting because it wasn't just about the organic farmer. It was about any farm who wants to plant habitat and maintain that habitat to protect invertebrates. Or, you know, mostly bees. Most people are familiar with. That's awesome. I want to help all the farmers to do that. Without bees, we've got nothing. We're going to starve. So, it's really important.The program hasn't grown as fast as we'd like, but it's got so much potential.
And other staff that I have working on it have the same sort of perspective like this is so fun because it's different. I've been doing organic certification work for 10 years, and now I'm learning something different, applying Oregon Tilth's mission and my skills to something different, and it's really exciting.TEM: I imagine, too, that it brings different skill sets together, but...
CK: Mm-hmm, yeah.
TEM: That different perspective brings different skill sets.
CK: Yeah. We're looking at, for the first time ever, staff here are looking at
pesticide synergies, for example. I did a class on that in college and I didn't like it at all, and I left it. But now, applying it, at what time do you apply these different pesticides that may have a synergistic negative effect? That's not okay, and having to look into and research all that stuff, you- I mean to pronounce some of these things you never knew how to read before in organic certification and learn that whole farming aspect.Most people here like constant learning. They like to evolve. They like to grow.
And so, it's just one more way, something different that we can grow and evolve, and learn and help people. And, at the same time, give people access as a footstone to maybe moving into organic agriculture, or maybe some parcels moving to organic. We're right here to help you, you know.TEM: [Laughs] bees are like a gateway.
CK: Bees are a gateway, I like that [laughter].
TEM: [Laughs] invertebrate gateway.
CK: Invertebrate gateway, I like that. I'll let Xerces know. That's a new
tagline for them.TEM: Oh, yeah? That's right.
CK: [Laughs]
TEM: You don't give me credit. Way to give me credit, you don't need to give me...
CK: [Laughs]
TEM: You don't have to give me royalties. What still excites you about your work?
CK: You can't tell I'm totally excited? [Laughter]
TEM: I know, I mean like everything I just said to you.
CK: Everything. Yeah. The people, both internally and externally. There is just
such wonderful people in this- I call it an industry now. A movement. I'm not sure what to call it, but whatever. There's just wonderful people that care about each other, and I just love being a part of that. I love being able- It gets so exciting when I can see a farm or a processor, anything I can help them come to market. I contribute, like I helped do that.In my own little way, even though it's only the certification - I probably was
like this bureaucratic paper-pusher [inaudible under laughter] - in a way, I helped bring that product to market. I get really excited when I can go to the store, and I can show my kids. It's like, "See this? See these chips? You like these tortilla chips, don't you? See that? See that logo? I did that." I love it [laughter], and they're like shut up, Mom.TEM: "I put the stamp on that" [laughter]... I am also curious about- I'm one of
those passingly interested person in demographics. And I say passingly because I don't have formal training in demographic analysis, but I'm curious about how and whether you've seen a shift in demographics, in the people that you work with. When you think about- I mean it's not necessarily just the people that you work with in Oregon Tilth, but how have you seen the people change? Who's doing it, who's asking you for help?CK: They've changed a lot because it used to be, like when I first started, it's
primarily farmers, farm producers, livestock producers. We didn't have a lot of processors, and so really over- since 2002 and beyond, the number of processors and food handlers, like the diversity there, has really changed. You used to be talking to small, smaller food dehydrators or coffee packagers or people who are more local, and now we're working with national brands, national companies. So, that's really different.Farmers in the same aspect, right? It used to be more local, smaller, and now
we're working with farmers who have fields or parcels across multiple states, ten thousands of acres, or livestock producers that are hundreds of animals. That's really different... Some growth.TEM: Yeah. It is interesting. I know that organic- I mean I'm reminded of how
certainly not being an exclusively organic company, but certainly a company that thinks a lot about ingredients and everything that goes into that, and all of the steps along the way to make a beer that is good, [laughter] but also has this kind of larger impact thinking about sustainability of business and some processes, and...CK: Used to be more businesses that we would talk to on a daily basis, and now
we are talking to more business who have organic as an aspect of their profile. It may not be- We hope - I mean I have hope someday - that their one organic product turns into 100 across their profile. And the one, if I can help make it successful, will be. It'll continue to grow. It'll double; two. Then it'll grow to four. And that gets me excited too. I can play that part and help them bring that one product to market, so maybe they have 100. And the ingredient supply that needs to happen to support 100 would mean 200,000 more acres of organic agriculture. That is so awesome.TEM: Does it make it easier, do you think, if there's more? That the more
products and more ingredients, does that kind of [stammers] is there an economy of scale that goes in?CK: Does it make it easier for them to certify it or produce it?
TEM: I was thinking of producing it, that it becomes easier to make a product if you...
CK: I could see some areas where it becomes easier. You know, if you're a
processor and your employees are running organic more, they're more knowledgeable about their organic operating procedures and what they have to do, versus that one time a year that they run that one thing and they're like huh, what do we do for this? So, that could become easier. It definitely becomes a little bit more challenging in sourcing all those ingredients and making sure that your supply is stable enough that you can deliver on time, and consistently, to the retailers. That could be really challenging the more you go. And I think that's one of the major challenges for processors, is they do - for the large processors - that they do have to have a very stable, reliable supply chain because they have to deliver to the Costcos or to the Walmarts, or the whoever on a schedule, or they lose it.TEM: Yeah, very different from the farmers market.
CK: Totally different from the farmers market where you can go and say this is
what I have today.TEM: Yeah.
CK: Take it or leave it. Or when you're working directly with a retailer, like a
small- like First Alternative Co-op maybe, where you can call and say "Hey, yeah, the blackberries aren't going to be ripe this week," or whatever. You can have that conversation, where on the other side, you don't really have that conversation with the Costcos and the Walmarts. They just say, "You deliver or you die."TEM: Yeah. I wanted to ask both of you if you have questions [laughs]. Do you
have any questions, Melissa, that you wanted to ask that I didn't ask?MT: Towards the beginning, I was wondering if you might elaborate about the... I
can't remember the exact words you used, but the inaccessibilities of women in the agricultural field that you recognized further on.CK: Yeah, that's interesting. Let me think. So, the world of agriculture has
typically, historically been dominated by men. And... I think a lot of the history and a lot of what people see when they see agriculture is typically men. I remember once when we [stammers]- You know, actually look at our website, it's interesting. We purposefully put more women on our website. You'll see a lot more on our site than you would on any- Go to any conventional agriculture website and try to find a picture of a woman. It's hard. You can't find them.And so, and the media has told people this is what agriculture is. It's always
the picture of the man. And so, I think a lot of women find that that isn't an area for them. They don't want to go in that area. It is hard work. It's definitely labor intensive, and so I think historically that was the man's job, was to be the labor-intensive kind of person, and the woman, like my family farm for example, my dad did all the work; my mom did all the paperwork. She did all the office work. Ran and put the checks to the banks. And so, that was a separation historically. It has been.Now, what I see is women running their own farms or more media attention, more
stories about women working on farms. Getting that experience and just having more exposure to that seems to have changed and led more women into it. Right? Oh, it's okay now. That's politically correct or okay for women to go do that now. But I'm not sure exactly- I cannot pinpoint a bias or a structural thing that says this is what has held women back, other than just their exposure to... what they believe agriculture looks like.TEM: I think it's f- The idea of representation is fascinating to me. And I've
talked to a lot of women in the brewing industry, and many women now feel like they need to be seen; that it is really important to have more women on a website for Oregon Tilth. You know, I think that-CK: Because in the industries, if it's always men, the perception is that that's
a men-dominated thing, and it makes it intimidating.TEM: That deliberateness is interesting to me. But I always felt like well, if
it would just naturally happen, then it would just naturally be easier, and that there is such a deliberateness to it.CK: It's funny, my- So, my dad had four daughters and he - Growing up, I can't
even count how many times he would introduce his four daughters to his neighbor friends, farmer friends, or whatever. They would say, "Oh boy, it's too bad you didn't- You didn't have any boys? I'm sorry." I heard that as a child so many times. And as I got to be- started to work on the farm, I grew up and I would [laughs], I would start to twist that when they started to- when I would hear that. I was like, when they would say, "Oh, no boys to work the farm?" and I would say, [laughs] "He didn't want any boys working the farm. That's why he had four girls. We work it way better."You know, and I would always say girls are the best combine drivers ever because
we take it slow like it should be. We are careful when we hear noises, take care of the machine. These are really important things, versus the guys just come out, [in mock brash voice] "Get it done." [In normal voice] just get it done, you know. And of course, that's definitely a generalization, but I would always try to twist it with them, like "Yeah, my dad's lucky he had four girls. I don't know what you're talking about."TEM: [Laughs] did your other two sisters go into farming-related, ag-related-
CK: [Shaking her head] as far away as they could get. Yeah, the other two
didn't- Well, one of my sisters does live in my grandpa's old house on the farm, so she's kind of connected. She runs her own business, a gym in town. She doesn't like to put the boots on. If she has to, she will, but she doesn't like to. But she's still living physically there and exposed to it, which is nice, to have her there to take care of the family and help.TEM: Sort of movement in a gym [laughs], like-
CK: Yeah, totally!
TEM: [Laughs] there's a- tangentially connected, maybe [laughs].
CK: She's totally, I mean when something goes wrong, either her or her husband
need to go help fix it, so she's out there. And her kids are out there on the farm every day, helping my dad out too. So, they're there. That's nice since I don't live on the farm anymore.MT: Yeah, I'm sure I had more but I can't think of any more specific ones.
TEM: You can't, that's totally fine. The pressure from behind the camera.
CK: I know. Yeah, she's- [laughs].
TEM: What did you think that we would ask you that we didn't ask you?
CK: I didn't know what you were going to ask me.
TEM: [Laughs] I feel like I asked most of the questions that I said I would [laughs].
CK: I loved that conversation. That was great. Yeah, I can't think of any.
TEM: It's a great thing about you being down the street; we can come back [laughs].
CK: Come back if anything comes up, yeah. Or just video chat me. We can do it on
video [laughs].TEM: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Thank you for talking with us.
CK: Thank you.
MT: Thank you so much, Connie.
CK: Thanks.
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