Jeff Falen and Elanor O'Brien Oral History Interview, July 2, 2019

TIAH EDMUNSON-MORTON: Okay, we are rolling. So, why don't you two introduce yourselves and say where we are?

JEFF FALEN: That's Elanor.

TEM: [Laughs]

ELANOR O'BRIEN: I'm Elanor O'Brien. We're at Persephone Farm in Lebanon, Oregon.

JF: I'm Jeff Falen. I'm in the same place as her.

TEM: [Laughs] And I'm Tiah Edmunson-Morton, also here.

MELISSA THIBEAU: I am Melissa Thibeau, also here.

TEM: And it is July 2nd, 2019. So, why don't you start by telling us where you grew up and a little bit about how you ended up here?

JF: Do you want to go first?

EO: Sure. I grew up in Brooklyn, New York in a very urban environment and had nothing to do with farming. Farming was I guess a couple generations back in my family. Not very near. And, let's see, I went to Earlham College in Richmond, Indiana, and got some experience on a small homestead farm run by students there. Not very slick production methods, but good experience which convinced me that I should quit school and start learning to farm, which I did. And I started traveling around and working on various farms and this was one. I came here in 1990 to work and I never left.

TEM: What did you study when you were in school?

EO: Not much [laughter]. Really wasn't doing the school thing very effectively [laughs]. I studied some languages and some literature and some art, and not very assiduously.

JF: I grew up in Mount Prospect, Illinois, which is a suburb of Chicago. And I came to Oregon partly to escape the flatlands, but also to go to college in Portland at Reed College where I studied chemistry. And I didn't have any farming background at all. My dad had grown up on a farm in Kansas, which isn't anything like what we're doing here, but I don't... But we were a bit of an outdoors family. We went to Colorado pretty often to go hiking and such. But growing up in a Chicago suburb was not very conducive to an environmental ethic, I guess.

But after my first year at Reed, I was hitchhiking around the state and I got a job on a farm in Central Oregon near Madras, and I moved. Mostly I [stammers]- I mostly moved irrigation pipe. I worked 80 hours a week. I didn't have very much in the way of time off, and I still liked it [laughter]. And then I continued with college and after I had graduated, I started working on other people's farms like Cascadian Farm, which was at that time just a little farm in Northern Washington. And it became a huge processor and is now owned by Disney, I believe.

And I also worked at a farm in Pennsylvania. In fact, we just visited that farmer a week or so ago. And I worked at a rural community of retarded folks in Georgia where we did a fair- of really largescale gardening.

Then I went back to Cascadian, and then my parents had this- they had to move to Portland from the Chicago area, and they were interested in helping me realize my dreams, so they helped me by purchasing this land.

TEM: How did you find this land?

JF: My dad and I just traveled around the state going to realtors, and we had various specs in mind. And yeah, we actually almost bought a place up near Clatskanie, and that would have been a really big mistake. When I look back on it, I just got too anxious because you got to have a lot of patience when you're looking for land. But fortunately, we were able to pull out of that and got this place. And this place has its drawbacks, but it's worked pretty well for us.

TEM: I'm always curious about the role that food played in early upbringings. What was the role of food for you, Elanor?

EO: We loved food [laughter]. We were enthusiastic eaters in my household. I never understood the kid's menu when we went out as kids. I thought that's just bogus. I really need food. So [laughs]- no, we liked food a lot and that was important. In my senior year of high school, one of my friends convinced me to be a vegetarian for a while, and I think that was the first time when I gave thought specifically to what I was eating.

And I started to- Oh, that's right, everything starts with a PBS documentary. [Laughs] My dad was watching TV and saw a documentary on PBS that was about John Jeavons and the biointensive gardening method and he called me in and said, "Hey, take a look at this. This is interesting." And I sort of sat there looking at it and I sort of went- this was still I was in Brooklyn. I had graduated high school and was about to go to college and I was just looking at the program and going oh, growing food. Huh. You know, it was [laughs], it was a new idea. I kind of graduated from being the consumer eating the food to thinking about what I was purchasing and eating to thinking oh, it's possible to actually grow food. And then, when I moved to college, that was when I got to partake in some of that and got hooked on that. So yeah, food was important.

TEM: I think of that as being a place where there's access to lots of different kinds of food too. Did you feel like it- were you an experimental non-kid's-menu eater menu eater [laughter]?

EO: In New York, you mean?

TEM: Yeah.

EO: You know, you can get anything anytime but looking back on it later, it also- that part of the food system didn't make much sense. For example, when I started getting some experience growing food, you know, why was I buying summer squash in February? That makes no sense. You know, just because it's there doesn't mean it's right [chuckles].

TEM: Mm-hmm.

EO: And so, I started thinking about it a little differently, but it's true, you can get anything. Yeah, there's no limits. We also, my parents and I had done a little traveling in Italy, and that is a good place to eat. That was very exciting.

TEM: Do you have siblings?

EO: Nope. I don't.

TEM: What about you and food?

JF: I grew up on a pretty standard American diet. I mean we didn't go out to eat much, and Mom cooked meals for us. And I don't remember, I guess I liked food. I don't remember it being a real big deal to me. And I ate massive quantities of it. And I do remember that my mom did some vegetable gardening. Not a lot. And she tried to get me interested in it by saying it was my garden. So, I planted a lot of the vegetable garden and then I went off and did kid stuff while she weeded it and watered it [chuckles]. And then maybe I harvested it, or maybe she did, but she still paid me for the produce [laughter]. Wow, this is easy, being a farmer [laughter].

So, I probably don't have a real... close linkage to food because, by the time I was 20, I'd lost pretty much all of my sense of smell and a lot of my sense of taste, so since then I haven't really smelled or tasted food. I'm kind of a texture eater. So, I would say it's just played kind of a not real- not a real pronounced role in my life, except for the fact that I grow it.

TEM: And you have to maintain it. You don't just get paid for [laughs], for planting it [laughter].

EO: Darn.

JF: And the reality is, I have to admit I don't really care for a lot of vegetables. I mean I guess that's just part of not being able to taste. I can't really taste them, so I like broccoli a lot, but most other stuff doesn't really turn me on that much.

TEM: It's funny to think about. As you were saying that I was thinking about all of the things that kind of have the same texture, too. They may have different colors, but that they would have the same- like could you tell the difference between eggplant and squash, you know, that kind of...

JF: Yeah, yeah.

TEM: When did you know that this was the thing that you wanted to do? So, you found this piece of land. When did you-

JF: Well, it was before we found the land, and it was after college. So, it was probably a year or two after college. I can remember the first time I started really talking seriously about it was right after my brother died in 1981, and just spending some time with my dad. And I think by then it had become apparent that I wanted to be a farmer. I really liked school and I liked academics, but I just wanted to be outside, and I liked the various aspects of farming. So, that would have been in my early 20s that I realized that.

TEM: What did you think you wanted to grow? I'm always curious about people who... There are certainly people who specialize in one thing, and they grow one thing. Hops, mint. How did you decide the kind of orientation of the farm?

JF: In terms of what we were going to grow?

TEM: Yeah.

JF: I didn't come here set on vegetables. I kind of wanted to grow fruit. But every other farmer I worked for had grown vegetables, and so that was where my experience was. And it seemed like fruit was just pretty hard to grow in this climate because of the wetness. And then we later learned that a lot of the small fruits which do grow fairly well here, like blueberries and such, require a lot of labor to pick, and we just- we have always had problems getting enough people. But actually, as far as specific crops go, it's largely because I got involved with the Organically Grown Company early on and they would say to their growers, to a particular grower, these are crops that are available. What do you want to do? And so, that's how it started out, was trying to cater to that market.

MT: Do you know if the Organically Grown Company, when they offered those- when they suggested to you those crops, or offered you those crops, was that based on the demand of what people were asking for of them?

JF: Yeah. And within 10 or 20 years it became hard to get a particular crop, but at that time, everything was just wide open because it was really just starting. So, you could- I mean, at the very beginning, they might just make a suggestion. Well, we don't have anybody growing corn. You want to try corn? And so, you'd decide to do that, or they might suggest a couple other crops that they had openings for. So yeah, it was based on demand.

TEM: I feel like you've got a lot of farm-specific questions.

MT: I do [laughter]. I don't know if you want to ask more...

TEM: No, go for it.

MT: ...in general ones, but, well I have [inaudible].

TEM: I will chime in with my general ones. I will, while Melissa's getting hers out, I will ask about access. What is it like to be out here? Is that an issue with transporting produce? Is it an issue with getting supplies? What is that like?

EO: Yeah, it's really nice to live here but we are at a disadvantage in terms of labor because we're not near some of the city centers where more of the labor is available and/or where more folks want to live. And additionally, yes, we do drive a lot of produce up and down the highway. So yeah, there's not a good immediate- a good market in our immediate area. So, the choice in terms of the remoteness is, from a quality-of-life standpoint in one sense, very nice, but it does have its drawbacks, as Jeff said, for production and farming.

JF: I don't think it matters so much for supplies. It's mostly just marketing.

TEM: Has that changed? Within the time that you've been doing this, clearly the internet has changed the way that we interact with suppliers [laughs]. Has that made it easier? Do you feel like that- or do you get supplies from the same people and so the fact that they may have a website wouldn't matter a whole lot?

EO: Yeah, I mean a lot of our suppliers have been established for a long time, and when you do live at a distance from various centers, you plan an errand trip, and you pack as many stops on there as you can think of. And so, a trip down to the warehouse, the Eugene warehouse of OGC, inevitably there's a stop at Jerry's Home building center and maybe a Forest Products supplier right there, and all kinds of other things.

TEM: You're going to a major-enough metropolitan area that you can pick stuff up [laughs].

EO: Yeah.

JF: I would say the internet hasn't- as far as getting supplies, hasn't been a huge boon, but it does help sometimes, especially sometimes we need some kind of a part that's a little bit obscure and hard to find, and you know you're not going to find this tractor part very readily locally. So, it's definitely helped on the hardware side and repair side. But I mean when we started, there was no internet and we didn't really climb onboard- well, we didn't have access to it for a long time because of where we live. But we'd been slow to climb onboard, so maybe there's more opportunity there than we know of. But we just established a lot of suppliers early on and have generally stuck with them.

EO: The old tools, such as the phone book [chuckles], used to work very well. Now phone books aren't worth much because nobody's putting any time into them, and they're often incorrect because there's a new technology. But it used to be you look up fencing supplies and you call all the people, and you say do you have this size and gauge of T-post, and then you go them.

TEM: Yeah.

MT: Kind of talking about supplies and a consumer is looking for specialty products, I was reading that you have a relationship with HOTLIPS Pizza, a couple of places in Portland. Did you see that a big interest in restaurants and businesses like that looking for local organic produce at the beginning of when you were farming, or has that changed a lot?

JF: That's changed a lot. There wasn't much interest in local and organic at the beginning, so it's something that probably happened, really got its start in the '90s, maybe. I mean when we first started, there were hardly any farmers markets, and now they're everywhere. So, that's a sign of demand for local products.

EO: Yeah. And organics is in just about every store. Every retail outlet now too, and frequently on menus. Yeah, I would say late, late '90s maybe is when it really started shifting.

JF: I mean in the late '80s, OGC was selling some stuff to Fred Meyer, so there was the big- some of the big stores were starting to dabble in it.

MT: I think I remember one of our interviewees talking about that a little bit.

TEM: Mm-hmm, I do too.

MT: Can't remember which person, but...

TEM: We were laughing that we've done so many library interviews, or interviews in the library, and it's in the same room, and for me, it means that stories start to blend together, that if I am in a place with someone, then I remember the place and I remember the stories. So, I- yes, we are both in a lot [laughter] of them. Situational memory.

EO: Mm-hmm.

JF: But I would say that without that demand for local and organic produce, we wouldn't be here.

EO: It's true.

JF: It's been really important for our survival.

TEM: How did the relationship with HOTLIPS happen?

EO: They found us. I think- oh, they had a booth at the Portland Farmers Market for a while. They don't anymore, but they were selling slices and things there and, yeah, David came over and said, "Can we get some food going?" And that was I think 1999, and yeah, they've been great to work with all along. Really solid.

TEM: How have consumers at the farmers market changed? Have you noticed, if you looked out from a booth or in the conversations that you would have with people, has it changed?

EO: Everyone's on their phone [laughs], and everyone wants to use a credit card. So, two things that have changed. Perhaps some shoppers are a little more sort of savvy in what they're looking for, have a few more terms to throw around when they're asking- From a personal standpoint, some of our customers way back when started out as a pregnant mom, and now that child is in college or beyond, so that changes. You get to see the changes in people's lives, which is cool.

JF: I'm not sure how to answer that. I would say that there's a lot of families at the Hollywood Farmers Market. Less so at the PSU market. And there's a real strong interest on the part of the consumers to really know what's going on with their food, but unfortunately, it's such a fast-paced environment that you usually can't- there's not enough time to really talk and educate people. And that's a good question, about how it's changed, and I can't really add anything else to what Elanor said, I think.

TEM: Yeah, I was noticing- So, I go to the one in Corvallis, and I feel like there are just a lot more people there; that the quantity has changed somewhat. And part of it is me, that I age [laughs] and time passes. But it seems like there are younger people. It wasn't as much even families with children, but people who were mid-20s. That was surprising to me, but... which is a very Corvallis microcosm. [inaudible].

EO: It's true, all the different markets have special characters. And... yeah.

MT: Were you ever considering certifying your farm as biodynamic, or did you always just intend to have it organic?

EO: Yeah, I don't think that we have been especially interested in certifying as biodynamic. I mean we have friends who farm biodynamically. It seems interesting but I'm not sure that it was especially grabbing us as something that we felt we needed to do. I mean yeah, we know relatively little, I would say, about the theory and practice.

JF: We have some close farming friends who are biodynamic, and I think without them I would probably look at biodynamics as a little bit woo-woo. But these people are pretty down to earth, and so I would say it kind of interested me, but I felt like we just had enough on our plate to take that further step. And we did adopt some of the biodynamic principles, especially looking at the farm as an organism, and with its various parts working together.

Like for a long time we had- and most biodynamic farms have livestock for nutrient cycling and such, and for a long time, we had chickens here that were doing that until last year. And we've definitely looked at it as an- I think biodynamics looks at the farm as more of an ecosystem. I mean organics does too but I think there's a heavier emphasis in the biodynamics on that, and we've definitely tried to encourage that approach through encouraging beneficials. But anyhow, we never took that step. It never... largely because of time and energy.

MT: Yeah. Well, in my understanding, too, I'm only just really starting to learn about biodynamics through this job, and my understanding is that the end goal is that one's farm is entirely interdependent from its own resources, and that's a pretty hefty aim, too. I mean that can be quite demanding of ensuring that your farm is quite isolated.

JF: Well, that, it's also- I mean, that's an important element of sustainability. I mean organics has a really big problem in terms of fertility because most of us are dependent upon feather meal, for instance, and products that are going to run out someday. Or else, if you- I mean feather meal's not going to run out because there will always- probably always be people eating chickens. But if you scaled organics up to 10 times its current size, would there be enough feather meal to go around and other products that come from animals? So, that's where I think it's really important to try and create as much fertility on the farm as possible, which is what biodynamics is trying to do, and that's a part of biodynamics that I really admire.

TEM: What are some ways, or how do you do that without going into the fully classifying yourself as biodynamic? What are some of the principles that you've established on the farm that are kind of in line with that? Which I suppose is maybe more generally the sustainable farming practices, period.

JF: I would say mostly cover cropping. That's probably the most important thing we do. That's bringing nitrogen onto the farm from the air. We already have- Our soil is already pretty rich in other nutrients, so we haven't really had to apply much in the way of other nutrients. And we've- Our pH has been pretty stable for the last 15 years. I think we've only applied lime once in the last... 50 or 20 years, but I can't say that I know why that's the case, because it's not really common, I don't think. So, for us, it's largely been cover cropping. Don't you think?

EO: Yeah. I think that Jeff has been- Jeff's religion is cover cropping [laughs], and I feel like his vigilance in terms of the last 30 years, just putting in a cover at every opportunity has boosted fertility and also organic matter in the soil, which some people might say that rising levels of organic matter can help stabilize pH. It's just I don't know if it's proven. But I think that's commonly said. And we've definitely seen changes in how much fertilizer we need to apply, and we've seen that we can start backing off on some of that over the years, and we've seen changes in how the soil acts when we try to work it up and how it drains. So, that's been just key. Now, we're not growing the cover crop seed, so that's not a closed system. But somehow-

JF: I don't think it makes sense to go that far. I mean I don't think the biodynamics- I don't see why it all has to come from one farm. It seems like you could have a bunch of different farms that were all contributing to a biodynamic ecosystem so that one farm might be growing the cover crop seed and one farm might be specializing in cattle and moving them around on the different farms so that they would all be interacting.

EO: Well, I think Wali has talked about that kind of a system, sort of a guild of permaculture farms so that- because you can't have all the land to do all those things necessarily in one place.

JF: Well, I think it's too much for one or two farmers to balance all that too.

EO: Well, yeah. That also.

TEM: So, how- I feel like we're definitely tucked into a little valley here.

JF: That we are.

TEM: So, everything that we can see is this part. This is yours. And then- so are there farms on the other side of- I've lost my sense of direction of where, which is- and there's no sun to help me [chuckles].

JF: That's south.

TEM: So, are there farms on either, on any side?

EO: Yeah, there are some. I guess I should first qualify when you said is everything we see yours, the timber up there is not. But yes, otherwise, from the base of the butte down through here into the riverbank, and in a couple places actually in the river [laughter] a little bit is Persephone Farm. And it's a long, narrow piece. You went almost from one end to the other. And there is some farming around here. There's blueberries on that side and... you know, I would say otherwise kind of mostly ranching, a little bit. And there are people that grow seed crops and wheat and different things like that around, but not a lot of farming.

JF: Yeah, I mean there's really only one farmer besides us in the immediate area who does most of the farming. In other words, renting people's land and growing grass seed and other crops on a large scale. You don't really get into a lot of farming until you get out past Lebanon, like between Lebanon and Corvallis. And there's plenty going on out there, but a lot of people who live around here are working in town, so it's just a- it's a hobby for them. They may have a few cattle and a big garden, but there's... The farming is pretty limited.

TEM: Was that different when you moved here?

JF: No. It's always been that way.

EO: Well...

JF: I mean since I've been here.

EO: Yeah. Years ago.

JF: But the neighbor's farm to the south, I mean that wasn't being used for most- well, actually since I moved here. It's been 34 years and only in the last few years have any crops been grown there.

TEM: I'm trying to think of what I- you know, I know my area more, the history of the immediate Benton County. I'm trying to think of, historically, what I know about this area. It seems like it was... maybe that way. So, if you went left at Lebanon and kind of behind Lebanon, that's where I imagine that there was more agricultural production. But that would be larger farms, and that certainly, people didn't need large farms. They could be in these little tucked-away valleys, then.

JF: Yeah. But if you go much- there's really only one valley to the east of us that is suitable for farming, and once you go past that, you're definitely in the foothills of the mountains.

TEM: Yeah. Mm-hmm, tucked up [laughs].

JF: Yeah.

MT: Yeah, I have a question that was pretty similar to the one that you asked a while back, which was what techniques are part of your operation that are supplemental to the organic standards that you aren't required by Oregon Tilth or USDA standards, but that you do on principle, which we may or may not have covered completely.

TEM: We were talking about beneficial insects, and I think that [stammers] attracting those- I'd like to hear more about that.

JF: I'm not sure what the standards say. You probably would know more about what the organic standards have-

EO: Well, I mean they talk about methods of pest control, and that is one of the methods that's highlighted as a good thing. And...

JF: But it's not really required, right?

EO: No, I wouldn't say so. Although, there is a newish component of the organic standards that's about resource conservation and habitat, and so under that section, habitat for beneficial insects and animals is... Again, it's not exactly a requirement but it looks good if you can show that you're doing it to the inspector. But it just was a- it was driven by a production need, basically. We had a situation where an acre of summer squash got zucchini yellow mosaic virus and pretty much went under from it, and that was a wholesale crop.

It was a lot, and at the time, we weren't a very diverse farm in terms of market or crops, so we had maybe five crops for wholesale. And so, you lose one of those, that's a big, big hit. And we started looking into the problem there and one of the main problems was that the disease was vectored by aphids, and we had a lot of them on that planting. And so, we started looking into row cover for aphid exclusion. We did a little bit of that. We hated row cover; we stopped [laughs]. We also looked into releasing beneficial insects to contend with the aphids, and that was good although buying insects from a lab felt strange.

And we looked into root cause, which was a fertility problem. We had given the summer squash too much fertility. The plants got very lush and succulent and out of balance and were more vulnerable to an insect attack. So, we learned a lot from that experience, and it also led us down the path of how can we encourage populations of beneficial insects on the farm, and so we learned a lot more about what kind of plants we can grow to sustain those populations and encourage them, providing nectar and pollen and structure and safety in terms of a place to be.

You know, so much of the agriculture that we practice is about disturbance, and so you can't build up a population of something if- very well, if you're just constantly disturbing. So, areas that are set aside. I guess that's what kind of led us on that quest, and it just became something very important to us. We devote some space in the crop fields to planting some flowers that will help sustain the insects.

TEM: That's what I was going to ask, if you'd- so, do you do like a row of flowers? Do you have flowers along the edges? What's the method for determining where to put them?

EO: Yeah, there's some different methods that we use, depending on the scenario, and they all basically evolved to suit our... the way we plant. So basically, anything that was going to be easy to do in the context of our regular vegetable plantings, that's what survived all the trials. And so, for example, every time we do a seeding in the greenhouse, we also seed some flowers, and we transplant some of those with the crops, and how we use them kind of depends on a couple things, but the ends of the beds, and sometimes we use them as a living flag to mark variety differences or trials or something.

But we just try and make sure we get some out there. And then, we also do have whole beds devoted to various plants, in some cases. When we want to divide up the field and have kind of a pathway, it's an opportunity to have more- you know, put something in there that blooms so, before we start stepping on it, it has some beneficial activity. In some cases, rows of sunflowers where they're in a good position and not going to just shade everything [chuckles]. So...

TEM: I love that phrase, that they're row markers. That they're like living flags.

MT: Yeah, that was one of the things I noted reading from your blog, is how you have- I have quoted: "We also allow market crops to stand and bloom after harvest, providing more tasty treats for beneficial insects," and... What you wrote about observing that transition and accepting transition, that was a really lovely piece for me to read. I really enjoyed that, and I think I'll go back to that communication later. But I was curious about how long you allow the previous crop to sit before you rotate them out.

EO: Well, let's see. Two things: the scenario you're referring to there has to do with let's say we're growing cilantro or dill to cut for the leaf for market. Once we've cut it, it starts to grow back not in such a way that we can harvest more leaf, but just it's going to go to flower, and we let it do so in order to be a natural bed of insectary. And that stays there basically as long as it's not in the way and doing some good. So, once it starts to go to seed, it's not helping necessarily so much anymore, or it may be time to turn it under and seed a cover crop or something. But they stay as long as it's useful.

And then, in terms of crop rotation, maybe that's a separate question but we have essentially a four-year rotation. So, the same family of crops is not grown in any one place more than one year out of those four.

JF: I think your question about what we do beyond organics really goes to the heart of what this farm is about, which is- I mean I was always really interested in trying to create an agricultural system that could feed people for 1,000 generations or more, and when I look at the current agricultural situation, and including organics, it's not there. And so, I wouldn't- We haven't created that, but I think we've made progress in that, and especially- Well, we've already talked about the fertility that comes from cover cropping in a- Cover cropping is meant to be part of organics, but I think maybe we do it a little more extremely than a lot of other growers, and the same with crop rotation.

We just discovered when we were being studied as a case study by some people at OSU that I guess one difference between us and other farms is, while they may have a crop rotation, a lot of times they cheat on it. And we've made mistakes before on the crop rotation where we've put something in a field where it- like squash that had squash just recently. And in our case, it was by mistake, and we paid for it because there was [stammers]- there were problems in that second, that subsequent planting of squash.

But a lot of it has to do with resource use, too. And so, we've really focused on- I mean you can see the solar energy out there. Fortunately, the government was really helpful in helping us do that. And we have an electric tractor, and we pay attention to our... our energy use in terms of the trucks we buy and what kind of mileage they get. I mean, we made a mistake by being so far from town, so we have to use a lot of diesel to get our produce to town, but if we're going to do that, what least we can do is try to do it as efficiently as possible.

EO: We don't drive faster than 55 miles an hour, to conserve fuel. And it's a more fuel-efficient speed and fewer pollutants are released, so this is an industry standard here [laughs] at this farm. So, all of our employees, not in their own vehicles necessarily, but anyone driving a Persephone vehicle has to do that.

JF: And obviously, the really big one is that we don't use much plastic. And you know, when I started farming, hoop houses [stammers] weren't really being used, and so we just kind of watched- [stammers] neither one of us cared much for plastic use. I mean, she had spent a season on a farm tearing up plastic mulch and saw it being carted away in dumpsters, right?

EO: Yeah. I mean, one of my days of work there- it was a great farm, and I enjoyed the work. There was no problem with it, but we were ripping up the black plastic mulch from the previous season and just filling a dump truck. And I came from that experience to my interview here and I asked Jeff if he used that kind of plastic and he said, "No, I don't believe in that." And I made note, like I hope I get this job [laughter]. Yeah, so that's- I mean yeah, we've watched sort of all our friends' farms increasingly become covered in black plastic mulch, floating row cover, and hoop house tunnels.

And just as the farm wouldn't exist without the support from the restaurants and market customers and everyone who wants the local produce, our farm also wouldn't exist without our friends' farms. The community is very strong. There's a lot of interchange of information and- I mean, you asked about supplies. A lot of farmers cooperate and buy things together, so we've learned so much from everyone and there's no disrespect intended for all these farms, but we also made a choice to draw our line at a certain point and try to resist- You know, we certainly- we use petroleum. We use plastic products of various kinds, some reusable produce totes. We consume plenty of nonrenewable resources here, but we made some choices with the solar energy collection and other things to say this is how we'd like to operate for the farm and for future farmers. And it's a challenge financially and logistically, but it's important to us and it is something that I think is different about our farm.

TEM: Having the hoop houses, would that extend the growing season? Is that the- that's the financial difference, I guess, is that you would be able to grow something longer?

EO: Mm-hmm.

JF: Yeah. For instance, we've grown tomatoes here and they're not really ready till early August. You grow them in a hoop house and you're going to be harvesting it in May and April. I mean May and June. And it's not just the plastic. I mean plastic is bad enough because it's a nonrenewable resource and it's essentially not recyclable, currently. Maybe someday it will be recyclable. But it's also the folks who are doing these are starting the plants in December and January under grow lights in a heated greenhouse, so they're using massive amounts of resources to get these plants going.

And like Elanor says, it's something that we've tried- we've kind of avoided talking about because we have a lot of respect for our friends, and- but it's kind of, to me, it's an indication of the broader... the broader business community's regard for sustainability, which is really what counts is the bottom line. And so... For instance, if a piece of equipment breaks down, say a drill or something like that, you throw the drill out rather than try and repair it. And that makes sense financially, but I'll go into the drill and try and fix it. And that's really kind of foolish from a business standpoint because I'm spending a lot of time doing those kinds of things. And Elanor is a master of recycling, and most people would just get rid of this stuff, could take it to the dump, but she spends a lot of time making sure that everything gets - as much as possible - gets recycled.

And that was really discouraging for me when I first started farming, as I was visiting other farms and they weren't recycling at all. And a lot more of them do now, but I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it's- there's a heavy price to pay because farms that are using plastic or aren't paying any attention to where their energy comes from are being more efficient. I mean they're making more money because they're just not paying attentions to those issues, and that's a broader problem throughout the economy. That's why... that's why the world is having such a problem dealing with climate change and other things because it's the bottom line's always going to come first.

TEM: Well, and it seems like this is something we ask people as part of the Organic Tilth interviews is that concern about scalability and how do you maintain that... not faithfulness to the early principles, but you know what I mean. How do you maintain that we're doing this for the greater good as you scale, and that is there- is there a point where it's not feasible to... that you can't do it anymore?

JF: Well, I personally, I feel that scale doesn't really matter. I've seen farms that have scaled up here doing hundreds of acres, and they're doing a better job of creating an ecosystem than we are because they're bringing in more income and they can hire somebody whose job it is just to scout their fields and to encourage beneficial insects, whereas a small grower is just overwhelmed by everything that needs to happen. And so, they may ignore some things even though they're philosophically inclined in that direction.

TEM: That makes sense.

JF: So, I don't feel like scale has to matter. I think it's more just an attitude of the bottom line comes first.

EO: And I think it can be a matter of how you think about your farm and your philosophy and your practices when you start because I think that if you are thinking about it in a certain way when you start, it can be easier to direct yourself along those lines. Whereas if you're not really thinking about it much as you start and you just kind of are taking advice from others or copying what you've learned on another farm, and then maybe later you start to think well, gosh, I don't know about this; this concerns me a little bit, but it may be a little harder to extract the entire operation from that aspect once you've got going. So yeah, I think it can be... It's hard because we're all so overwhelmed when we first start, by so many obstacles and things to learn. But I think it can be pretty important to start with a really clear idea of what you want around your farm, and what you want your farm to do for the world.

JF: Otherwise, you just get sucked into the way it's being done, which [chuckles]-

EO: It's easy to do.

JF: It's not very viable over the long term.

EO: Yeah.

MT: Yeah, it's difficult to change your infrastructure, physically.

JF: Yeah [laughter].

EO: Mm-hmm, yeah.

MT: Yeah the- in terms of you have a better sense of the language of it than I do, but reading your- the examples of hot water piping through where you grow your starts, I think, and solar panels, and these minute details that you were so thorough in listing on your sustainability page, it's really fascinating for me. And I was curious about where- what were your sources in your research of learning how to implement these technologies? Where did you find how the...

JF: Well, the solar energy thing mostly came from a contractor, the contractor we chose. He provided a lot of education in how the system works. But also, the Oregon Department of Energy and Energy Trust of Oregon have been really good resources for that. So, there's been a fair amount of government assistance there. I mean the Oregon Department of Energy helped us to make the electric tractor. And in that case, where we found out how to do it was online. Somebody on the East Coast had converted the same cultivating tractor to electric and had put everything online. He'd gotten a grant to do it, and so it was very well done.

And things like- well, like the tubing, the hot water tubing you're talking about in the greenhouse, that came mostly from other growers because other people were doing it well before us. So, we got information from other growers on how to go about it. And you know, I've- we've had some... There's been communication with some other growers. Like we know one grower who is very interested in sustainability, and he and I did some calculations on how much energy is used hauling produce up from California versus taking it from a farm here and - like from us - and taking it to Portland, and it's actually about the same because the produce that's coming out from California is in a big truck, and so it- you know, the longer distance is offset by the efficiency of doing a lot of it in one load.

What other resources? Well, the university has been good in some ways. I mean, in terms of the cover crop that we've talked about, we've gotten some pretty good advice on cover cropping from them. They were pretty useless in their beginning years.

MT: [Stammers] I feel like that's a general...[laughter]

TEM: [inaudible]

EO: Come a long way.

MT: [inaudible] sentiment [laughter].

EO: Come a long way.

MT: We've heard from interviewees.

EO: It's interesting, though. I mean some things... turn out to be things that no one seems to have tried. For- the greenhouse heating, water heating system is an example. Instead of a tank heater, Jeff wanted to use a tankless heater because it's more efficient. Well, tankless heaters typically are used in homes, and nobody had much experience with it being used in a greenhouse. And there was not, in that case, much, if anyone, to turn to. As it turned out, it wasn't the greatest option for a greenhouse where the humidity is really high, and conditions are more variable than in a home.

But similarly, when we were burying the pipe to carry the hot water to the benches, burying it in the ground, Jeff wanted to know what type of insulative material to wrap the pipes in because insulation's very- you know, it makes more efficiency and saves energy. And it was a very specific application. These pipes were going to be full of hot water. What is the correct product to use? Nobody knew. Very interesting. Has no one ever done this before?

TEM: [Laughs]

EO: I mean of course somebody probably knew that we hadn't hooked up with, but it just wasn't- it wasn't a commonly known fact. So, sometimes we get to make some things up and try some things.

TEM: I think of the- I, ages ago, was talking to a scientist who said that scientists needed to have a journal of no results, too. Like that you have a journal where you publish the things that were successful and you- this- you have data to share on a positive improving side, but that we also needed to have the, "We did this stuff, and it didn't work." And so, these are the conditions under which, [laughs], it didn't work. So, it seems like the journal of "We tried this in this place and it didn't work; maybe you should try this different way," that that sounds like what you need, the journal of no results.

EO: Yeah.

JF: Yeah, definitely.

EO: Yeah. Our employees, unfortunately, get to hear all about that when they suggest a new idea and we get to say oh yeah, we tried that; it didn't work because X, Y, and Z.

TEM: I was actually curious about that, whether the- I know that you have at least two people that we- [laughs]

EO: That you've seen?

TEM: That we've seen [laughter], that very nicely said, "You passed it."

EO: [Laughs]

TEM: "...This is not it." But how have the- how has the next generation been a resource? Are they coming with a different perspective that you don't have, regardless of experience? Have you felt that, not generational split, but are they coming with new ideas?

JF: Hmm...

MT: [In low voice] Oh, no. [Laughter]

EO: It's okay. You can stump us.

JF: Well, I would say- yeah, I would say one thing, in particular, is the scale issue. When I started, it was generally considered that you've got to have a fair amount of land or work a fair amount of land to make a living. And we know a lot of growers, couples usually, who are like no, we can do it on one or two acres. And you know, some people that used to work here are trying that out in Louis- [stammers]- no, in Mississippi I guess. And so, that idea has kind of taken the youth by storm. There was a book written about it a few years ago and a lot of people are- a lot of growers are familiar with it.

And so, what appeals to them is I think several things. One is that it's- maybe it's a little easier to deal with a small piece of land than with a large piece of land, and they don't have the money to buy a large piece of land anyhow. But the other really big issue is labor. They don't want to hire people, and this is a real important aspect of what I would regard as a non-sustainable part of organic agriculture, is that it's more dependent upon labor than conventional ag. I mean, conventional vegetables and fruits, you got to still take a lot of people to harvest it, but less people for weeding and for planting. And if you can't find the people to do the work, it's not going to happen. It's not sustainable.

And, of course, a lot of the people who've been doing the work for many decades are being booted out of the country, so it comes from that and from the American generation that just- most of which don't want to have anything to do with agriculture. I mean, there's still plenty of people out there who do. So, I would say that's a pretty pronounced change that I've seen. Maybe that's just been my perspective, based on who I worked with, but I think it's real, that people go for smaller pieces of ground.

TEM: And so, how do other farmers who maybe have larger pieces of ground, what is the relationship like? I know- so, I think I was saying earlier when you weren't in the room that I've done a lot of interviews with hop farmers and they're- hop farming is a very- it's large now. It used to be lots of small family farms, and there are very few families now, with lots more land. And there are some farms that are starting, and they want to not grow as much, and so they want to only have 10 acres because it's more sustainable for lots of reasons: equipment, harvesting.

And there's a real tension between the larger growers and these smaller growers, of we're doing two different things even though we're growing the same thing. Do you feel like there's a tension between larger farms? Do you feel like there's a kind of community that doesn't matter necessarily how large your farm is? Is this not even an issue [laughs]?

JF: I don't think it's an issue. Do you? [No audible answer]. I mean, there aren't really- isn't much in the way of really large farms in Oregon. I guess maybe sometimes I hear growers denigrating the huge California farms and saying they can't be doing that good of a job. And from reports I've gotten from people who visited, some of them, they aren't. But I'm also aware that some of them are doing a good job, so... I don't feel like that tension- I'm not aware of that tension.

EO: Yeah.

TEM: Fair enough.

JF: I mean I- [chuckles] We have a friend who's a conventional grower and he says the tension around him is that the neighbors, they're not really community-minded. The neighbors are thinking I hope that guy over there goes out of business so I can get his land. I'd never hear anything like that in the organic community, which is really nice.

TEM: Yeah.

EO: Yeah, it's very cooperative approach generally, and even if it's not directly cooperative, it's at least friendly.

TEM: Yeah.

MT: How many employees about do you have year-round, and how many during harvest?

EO: So, we're at the cusp of a big change for this farm in that respect. I can tell you what it was.

MT: Yeah, sure.

EO: For about a 14-acre vegetable farm, we had generally- at our peak, there were 11 of us in the summer, and-

JF: Including you and I.

EO: Yes, including the two of us. And then, in the winter it would shrink down to about four part-time. And then there's a whole- there was a whole fleet of very part-time employees who work the markets in the cities, who live in the cities. So, they count legally as our employees but they're not pushing all the produce, necessarily, out of the ground. Now, this year we're growing just over five acres and have also simplified the number of crops in market outlets. This is, in part, the plan this year was to begin transitioning the management of the farm to some younger folks. And additionally, we've experienced some personal changes which kind of have accelerated our wish to transition.

JF: She's being diplomatic. I got really sick last winter so it was kind of like oh, we got to make this change faster.

EO: Yeah. So, that process is on the fast track. And what that basically meant was that Theo and his partner, Erin, are the main people working on the farm this season, and it's mostly his farm design with some consultation from us. And one of the ways that he wanted to approach it was to try to simplify and make it a lot smaller moving forward, to at least get a year of experience with that and see how it would go and where he wanted to go with it. So now, [chuckles] there's Erin and Theo are full-time, and then we have two part-time folks who commute to work from town, and I'm part-time. Jeff is also still involved and-

JF: In the accounting, mostly.

EO: Accounting, research.

JF: And repairs.

EO: Repairs [chuckles].

JF: Anything that doesn't require a lot of physical effort.

EO: So anyway, it's very new for us, this size. It's very intimate [laughs]. We're finding out what it's like, and who knows what it will be in the future, but this is at least what's happening this season, and we're finding out how it goes.

TEM: Do Erin and Theo live close, or live-

EO: They live right here.

TEM: Here?

EO: Mm-hmm. Right there [laughter].

JF: We've always had some people living on the farm in what we called an apprenticeship program. So, we have other housing. They live in one place. There's a couple other places people can live.

TEM: It seems like if you're working full time on a farm, it would be really difficult to drive every day. That would be tiring.

JF: I would think so.

EO: I would think so.

TEM: [Laughs]

EO: Yeah, people do it, but I've never had to do it, and that's good.

TEM: And I've been curious about how roles get decided in businesses that are family businesses. How did you decide what each of you did? And I mean that certainly has changed, but before our last winter, how did you decide what people did?

EO: Well, I came here as an employee in 1990 and Jeff had been here for five years, operating by him- I mean, he was the operator and there were employees, but he was handling pretty much everything. So, I think there was a process first of me gradually taking a few things off his plate, and I guess we just sort of went for things that it seemed like we could handle [chuckles]. So... who would you-

JF: Yeah, I would agree. I mean Elanor is- You know, for a couple years maybe she wasn't very much involved in management stuff, but I wasn't doing a very good job with the greenhouse, so she took it over. And I didn't really want to keep doing the certification, so she did that. And so, we've gravitated towards the things we like to do or the things that we might be better, more adapted to. I mean I'm no mechanic, but I can generally do the repairs and the equipment stuff. So, it was an evolution.

EO: There are some things that neither of us are good at [laughs], and sort of nobody did those things.

JF: Yeah.

EO: Like marketing [laughs].

JF: Yeah, exactly.

TEM: But you write this wonderful blog, though. I mean, I think that's- it's a very thoughtful way of sharing what's going on if we think more generally about marketing as sharing [chuckles].

EO: Yeah, I mean that's- that in and of itself hasn't been going on for very long. But we didn't have a website. That started with the website, and that started in 2013. So, we're fairly behind the curve, and you know I don't do- have a Facebook page or any- I'm not a very devoted blogger. But yeah, so we're- I guess we've...

JF: That's been a drawback because when we're both averse to something like marketing, it doesn't happen. And that can really hurt.

EO & TEM: Yeah.

MT: Yeah, I mean I know... My mom works as an Extension agent for the UC system, so every once in a while I have these conversations with her about, you know, this larger question that everybody's talking about in terms of scientists being more communicative with the public, and she [chuckles], she always brings up the understandable point that communication, that takes time, and learning how to be communicative, and even if you are doing that, so I was having such a wonderful time exploring your website.

I just felt that it was very thorough, and I felt very moved by- with pieces that you had written. But at the same time, absolutely it's hard to keep it going. And I guess I kind of- And especially, too, considering how limited I think young people who are interested in being farmers have access to experiences from farmers, and so I was curious about whether you think that this kind of communication and relaying your experiences, how critical it is for farming being passed on and younger people taking initiative in it, even though it's really difficult to keep up.

EO: Mm-hmm. Well, I guess I can only really relate to the situation when people come here to work and have access really to an unlimited [laughs] fund of stories.

TEM: [Laughs]

EO: And curmudgeonly advice and things like that. I think that's important. I think it's a good thing. I don't know who reads that [laughs], aside from the two of you [laughter], which is nice. I don't know. Yeah, I don't really participate in any of the social media kinds of things where you know exa- you get all this feedback and you know exactly, and there's a loop of communication around it because I'm [stammers]- it's a little more high maintenance than I want. So, I'm not really sure... I'm curious how these interviews might be used in the future, or really how useful it is. I mean, we can talk now, but yeah, I don't know.

JF: I'm not sure if this is what you're asking, but it seems like there's two elements here, maybe, that you're thinking of how do we get the next generation interested, and then secondly, how we educate them about farming, which is...

MT: Yeah, sure. That's all part of it. It's a pretty broad question [chuckles].

JF: Yeah. And... I mean, as far as the educating, we've thought a lot about educating the next generation. I feel like I was very ill-prepared to start this farm. I had worked in other people's farms, and I was arrogant enough to think that I knew what I was doing, and then I got here and the first year was just an utter disaster. And I had the opportunity to basically stay on a farm that I respected and learn a lot more and I, for various reasons, I didn't do that. And I think that that's- I think young people really need to look at this as what you- You go to college to study chemistry, so you're going to get a job in chemistry. You got to have some kind of education around farming, too.

And it may take years for you to be able to come up to speed enough that you can do farming, and I think the best way is for people to find a farmer that is good and can take the time to teach you, and that you estab- which is difficult in the first place. And in order to establish- I guess I've always liked the kind of- the image that's been projected of mentors in Japan, how you go work for somebody and you sweep the floors for five years before you actually get to do anything with the pottery.

Now, I wouldn't go that far here, but I think the people who come here are, a lot of times, are hoping for pretty advanced skills early on, and really, they need to learn the basics. And they need to stick around long enough to start learning the more advanced stuff, but they're a little too anxious to move on. Or they find that farming's not for them. But the flip side is that most growers don't have the time to do any of that kind of education and you can't pay people less for internships because the state doesn't allow it, basically. So, you're kind of stuck.

But as far as getting people interested, is that part of your question in the first place?

MT: Yeah. I mean, I guess my question could be rephrased, but you can answer whatever question you think is relevant or however way you want to. But I guess my question could be rephrased as do you think that [stammers]- that possible future farmers will be interested, will become interested in farming even if current farmers, or very experienced farmers, don't actively communicate through blogs or social media or books or what have you. But they don't hold any-

TEM: Because it's not handed down?

MT: Right.

TEM: It's sort of like if you grow up on a family farm and you've had a family farm for five generations, there's a certain level of education, but also expectation. Is that kind of the-

MT: Yeah. Yeah, or just kind of an inherent- but I guess just based on your story of living in the city and kind of seeing a documentary and- well, even that's a form of communication, right?

TEM: Mm-hmm.

MT: But I mean I think there is always that inherent drive there, and I'm just curious about how much communication by current farmers affects the number of people that would become interested in farming in comparison to if we're kind of just basing it on inherent drive that people discover.

EO: It's a really good question. I think I would think of it in terms of for each person who comes to agriculture who wasn't born into it, what is the hook that sort of gets that initial inspiration that gets them started on the path? And I feel like that hook more often than not is not necessarily a communication but is a sensory visceral experience.

For instance, Theo related the experience of strolling through a garden and picking a snap pea and eating it and enjoying it [laughs] so much that something clicked and felt like this would be a really fun thing to do. And I think for a lot of us there- It could have been something read, or I guess these days it would be a podcast [laughs], or something of this nature. But I feel like often it's a sensory, like a physical experience of experiencing the visual beauty of a crop growing or the taste of it or the scent or the feel of the soil. I feel like often that's the thing that hooks people into it, and then the next step is really important as far as, okay, there's the inspiration; now where does the knowledge and practice and experience come from?

MT: And perseverance.

EO: Yeah.

MT: Like you're saying.

EO: Yeah.

JF: I don't think farmers are very good at reaching out to people and showing them and communicating what they get out of farming to people like in the city, say. Because we're just so busy usually, and you know there's some famous farmers like Joel Salatin or something like that who go around the country lecturing and gives people a taste of that, but a lot of those farmers are- It creates a little bit of a very much, I guess, a romanticized vision of farming. And so, when people come to us who want to farm, they kind of need to have a reality check.

But I feel like what we really need I think is farmer-poets like Wendell Berry, for instance. You know, I think he does a really good job of portraying agriculture, at least as how it used to be, and there's some folks that Elanor worked for who write poetry, and I think - not just poetry, but prose - I think that's really useful in giving people a first taste of what it could be like, but it doesn't seem like it's happening on a very large scale. Does that kind of respond to what you're thinking?

MT: Yeah, absolutely.

JF: All right. So, I-

TEM: I think you said too that then people- it's also important for them to leave if they don't want to do it or can't do it, and that this kind of reality check of you have this sensory experience, this visceral connection, but then it may be that it's not for you [laughs].

JF: Yeah.

TEM: But it's having the opportunity maybe to try.

JF: Yeah, I was at a- I was eating dinner with some folks at an event a couple days ago and everybody at the table was involved in either education or high tech, and so I was the only farmer there because there's not many farmers in the world. And it just- it was really clear to me that they really had no inkling of what farming is about, and they didn't even show any interest in it, which was fine. I mean I didn't take it personally, but I think most people are really swept up in the culture as it is, and the culture doesn't really include much of farming.

Now, this particular - I should point this out - this particular place that I was at is called GeerCrest Farm & Historical Society, and part of their mission is to give kids an exposure to homestead skills because this farm was started like in 1850. And so, they have kids come in for summer camps and they work in the gardens, and I think that's got to be inspiring for kids, as well as just the- You know, a couple years ago, the state, we voted on a referendum that gave- provided funding for outdoor schools, and that works in that direction too. It may not be farming, but it's giving kids an outdoor experience and maybe realizing that this is where I want to be.

TEM: I've often wondered, too, if an increase in the popularity of farmers markets- understanding that farmers markets are not farming [laughs], but that that awareness of where food comes from, that- I mean my parents gardened. We ate vegetables. I had no real connection, though, to the fact that- I think I understood that broccoli grew. It wasn't that I didn't understand that it was a plant, but I think that seeing seasonality, whether it's pushed by hoop houses or not, that seeing that a farmers market only happens certain times of the year because food grows in this area certain times of the year, I wonder whether they're- what the impact of that is, and that they're- if it seems that kind of identification of food coming from a place...

JF: It's got to be a lot more positive than the supermarket, so I think that's a good point.

TEM: Yeah. I mean, I would hope [laughs]. I still don't grow broccoli [laughs].

MT: Yeah, I think it's interesting because there's- I think it works both ways because having that, at least that, some level of awareness of seeing the food environment around you, even if you're not seeing farming directly, provides that certain connection. But then, also... but then also kind of coming to realize that consumer aware- [stammers] that consumer awareness is not always the exact same thing as farming awareness. And sometimes it can outpace what the actual realities of farmers and finding, from a consumer perspective, finding that balance. Yeah. It's interesting.

JF: You know, you mentioned farmers markets. I think they could be instrumental in getting people interested in farming because- and some of them do promote their farmers, and they could, for instance, sponsor trips to farms. And I think a lot of city people like that kind of thing. And there's these farm-to-table events where you go out and pay a lot of money to have a dinner on a farm, but at least it gets you exposed to a farm.

So, unfortunately, you know it's not coming from farmers, but I think we need help from our urban consumers to try and establish that connection. And it would be really good politically too because we hear a lot about the divide between urban and rural in this state and other states, and a lot of rural people feel like they're really disrespected by urban folks and not supported. And it would really help if there was a lot more communication between those two geographic cultures.

TEM: I saw a booth at our farmers market. This is the first year I've seen it, the sign-up to go on a farm trip for [inaudible]. And it was one of those things that I saw it as I was walking by and then my brain continued to process, like oh, that- you were signing up to go be one for a week [laughs], then it was...

MT: Oh, wow.

TEM: Yeah.

MT: That's a commitment.

EO: Yeah.

JF: They were sponsoring a whole week on a farm?

TEM: Well, I'm not sure. No, I think it was that they- that you would sign up. I think you would pay, so you would be paying for like a farm vacation.

JF: Yeah.

TEM: I think they may have been calling it a farm vacation.

JF: Okay.

TEM: That was your vacation. I'll stop by the booth next week [laughs].

MT: Yeah, check it out.

TEM: Check it out.

JF: That would give you a very romanticized notion.

TEM: I know, that's what I- that was, again, not even living on a farm, but I thought oh, this sounds like that's not... Sounds like it would be like you would write a memoir about it [laughs].

JF: Yeah.

TEM: Have very beautiful pictures for your memoir [chuckles].

EO: Yep.

MT: Instagram.

TEM: Yeah, you would Instagram the entire thing [laughter].

MT: Yeah. I don't know if that- that was such a great conversation to end on. I don't know how I would go on to the next question.

TEM: [Laughs]

MT: I don't know, should I ask about the Oregon Tilth? I guess I was kind of curious about this- you mentioned the kind of partitioning of paperwork. Actually, this was a question we asked of our last interviewee because- oh, I think we both kind of took an interest in the role of paperwork in organic farming. So, I was just kind of curious if your general experience of the certification with Oregon Tilth, and maybe- or even just to be more specific of... I mean, do you think that... Okay, well I guess your experience with you yourselves having your own farm and also working on the paperwork, or do you see farms dedicate a person specifically for keeping up with the certification? How do you see that working with-

EO: I don't really know how other farms do it. Did you want to start by talking about the early days? This farm has been certified organic since its first year, which was 1985, and there were not- That was pretty new then, the whole system, and not quite what it is today. Did you have-

JF: It wasn't as complicated. I don't...

EO: I think I'm trying to get at- I think I asked you what the process was like then and you said there wasn't a whole lot to it.

JF: Yeah. I mean I remember the inspection because Harry MacCormack did it, and he's pretty memorable.

EO: [Laughs]

JF: And I don't remember the application being very complicated. But it was so long ago, I'm afraid I don't really have a clear idea [laughter].

EO: Yeah. So, I actually saw the certification process from before the National Organic Program, through that transition to now. So, I have seen it take several steps up in involved [chuckles]... degree of involvement and detail. And we tend to be a record-keeping farm for our own purposes because there's no other way to remember everything that happened [laughs] and how it played out. What were the no results? What were the good things? What were the, you know, what did we- How can we not repeat this mistake by writing it down? So, we tend to keep a lot of records. And I would say, by and large, most of the records I keep for Tilth I would want to know anyway. They're sales, they're yields, what practices we used, and so they're important. Most-

JF: Yeah, like how do we know how much fertilizer to apply on a crop if we didn't keep track of what we did a year or two before?

EO: Mm-hmm. Yeah. How do I know where to find organic seed in all the different varieties if I- you know, I can look in every catalog, and I do because I'm always looking for organic seeds, but knowing where I got it last time is helpful. So yeah, so many of those things are just important. Really, there's very few things I think that I keep track of for Tilth that don't benefit us in some way, for the most part.

TEM: As you were saying that I was wondering too if it has become maybe more complicated in increments, and so you have also adjusted [laughs]-

EO: Oh, yeah.

TEM: -that...

EO: Yeah, for sure. You know certain requirements obviously changed when the National Organic Program really- I mean the law passed in 1990, I think. Right?

JF: Yeah.

EO: When I was first here, Peter DeFazio came here to visit the farm in conjunction with all that hoopla. And so- but it took I think till 2002 really till the standards- The National Organic Standards Board had been working on it and, boom, some new things changed right then. And we adjusted [chuckles]. Yeah, and since then, now for the Tilth inspections we have to do trace-back audits where we can show all the information about every crop from where it was sold back to where it was harvested, how that field was treated, how- where did we get the seeds, how are they grown, all the way back. And we can show every step of the way. So, do I use that information all the time? No [chuckles]. But if I needed it, I could find it. So, it's good those systems are in place. The inspections take a long time. For us, about six hours.

TEM: What happens?

EO: What happens [Laughs]?

TEM: Yeah.

EO: So...

TEM: They know to open the gate [laughter].

JF: Did you not [chuckles]?

TEM: I'm pleading the Fifth [laughter]. We made it through [laughter].

EO: I- you know, yeah, a gate is a natural stopping point, and I've had people-

TEM: We did wave a little first, to see if it would automatically- I was like, "What if this is electric?" And then it didn't appear. And then we read-

MT: Yeah, that was on me because I- [laughter], I was holding the directions and I did not read it thoroughly enough to see when you reach and have to stop to open the gate, that [inaudible] [laughter].

TEM: So, we made it. So, they open the gate [laughs]...

EO: They open the gate, there's a large part of the interview that takes place right here with just folders and files and catalogs and papers stacked all over the place. Some people probably have a lot of this digitized. I still do it on paper. And we go through several- well, we go through a lot of sections where they ask us questions about resource use, about pest control, about inputs, about all sorts of things like that. And basically, they go off last year's report and say, "Is this still accurate? Are you doing anything new? Are there any changes? Is there anything you want to take off?"

And they do a couple audits, as I mentioned, where they trace back and you have to show every step of the way. They also look at a couple crops from start to finish in terms of how much seed and land made how many plants and what volume of food that was sold, and they're looking to see if it all makes sense. You know, does it look like you snuck in some non-organic seed from somewhere, or does this yield look like a typical organic yield? Does it look like you're misreporting your income? You know, all sorts of things like that. If you're feeding chickens, does it look like you bought the right amount of feed for this amount of chickens over this amount of time, or are you sneaking some feed in from somewhere else, kind of thing?

And then there's a short portion of touring and looking at the fields and the irrigation and the animals, if there are, and your supplies, where they're kept, and just seeing that everything seems to make sense. Again, that it seems like it's compliant with the standards and there aren't any red flags like an unacceptable material or... you know, if it looked like there was a big food safety hazard, or you had animals grazing right on the riverbank, or some no-nos like that. We're also Salmon-Safe certified, so the Tilth inspector usually does both. They have several people who are trained for both.

TEM: That's nice, I imagine.

EO: Yeah.

TEM: How have, or have Theo and Erin- is that right?

EO: That's right.

TEM: Have they been a part of those inspections? How does that kind of trickle-down of knowledge happen? Is that something that has been worked into their apprenticeship? The paperwork apprenticeship [laughs]?

EO: Not yet, for that part. And that's an interesting bigger question of the information transfer and the transition of responsibilities. And basically, there are so many pieces, and we're just kind of working on it over time, and gradually passing on more and more. Erin has been my greenhouse apprentice and - the propagation greenhouse - and so I've just been working with her steadily on all the aspects of that. There's so many detail- we haven't even covered everything. We've been working for months on this, but she's gotten the most complete sort of transference of information to date.

So, they have specialties that they're taking on. Again, I think mostly responsive to their natural proclivities and things they're interested in and are good at. But in this transition year, there are certain things that it's like they already have quite enough to do on their plate in terms of the areas they've already taken on, just delving into those really deeply, getting very thorough. And so, there are some things that I can still do without- more or less on automatic pilot. I don't- it's okay. I can still do the Tilth inspection and the certification. I can still do the seed orders. They don't have to be involved in every single aspect in their first year of this grand experiment.

TEM: Mm-hmm.

EO: But, you know, the longer they stay, the more of that they're going to get, and we'll just keep working on it.

JF: Well, I think they have- they do some crop records, right?

EO: True.

JF: And I think that's kind of a good way to work in that direction because they transplant a crop, then they need to record it with the date and how much was planted, etc. So, that's a beginning point towards that goal of having them take over more of the paperwork.

EO: That's absolutely true. In that way, everyone here is- the work they do is feeding into that process, whether they know it or not. Everyone who looks at the numbers on a pick list and writes a note about the field they picked in or how much they actually got, that's all information. So yeah, it's true. You can't separate it all out exactly, so everybody's having an impact in that way.

TEM: As you describe it, it just seems like if you're doing the things to track the production of your land, then you're doing the things that you would need to have the certification. That it seems like you are [stammers]- you're tracking, and that if... maybe, but you weren't naturally inclined towards paperwork [laughter].

EB: Well, I can't remember things that I don't write down, in general, so that's one thing.

TEM: Yeah.

JF: I'm naturally inclined towards numbers. I've always liked numbers. But it's fallen by the wayside in the last four or five years. We used to have a guy here who was really good at math sort of stuff, and so at the end of the season, he would spend a week just going through, figuring out how much we sold of everything, and the acreage so that he could come up with their yields. And it's very time consuming and most people probably don't want to do it, so it hasn't been happening.

MT: Yeah, I did an internship. I was like an accountant for my internship last year, and I wasn't even really doing any real work with numbers. I was just checking to make sure all the receipts were there. And so, looking at all of these tiny det- it takes a certain...

JF: Otherwise, it's mind numbing.

MT: ...person to really- [laughter]. It's [stammers]. Yeah, still.

EO: Yeah, so much of this work is very detail-oriented, whether it's scouting in the field and looking at how things are growing, looking at what insects are visiting, looking at things like that, or keeping track of the irrigation schedule and what's been watered when and how to make all those things get along, it's really very, very detail-oriented. And so, yeah, you start on the surface and you just gradually kind of get deeper and deeper and deeper into it.

JF: But you know, when they were- When OSU was doing a case study of us and several other farms, we learned that they really like our records. And that made me realize I had no idea before this that most farms don't really keep much in the way of records. So, that was kind of surprising, and that must be really hard for the Tilth inspections of those farms if there's not much on- reported.

EO: Yeah.

MT: I wonder if people who grumble a bit more about the paperwork also... if people who are running less experimental operations than maybe you both are. I mean, that could be just one factor out of many, but if you're not doing as much experimentation with growing crops and seeing how things work, then you don't- [stammers] there are things you don't necessarily have to remember the same way because you just do it the same way all the time.

JF: Or if you're just growing a few crops instead of 40 like we were, that would make it a lot simpler.

MT: Yeah, that's a lot. That's a lot of crops.

TEM: Yeah [laughs].

EO: This year we're around 15, which is- I'm liking that.

TEM: [Laughs]

EO: But yeah, 40 was too many.

TEM: Seems like a lot.

EO: It was a lot. Mm-hmm.

MT: [Inaudible] questions. I think that was the most that I've had so far for an interview, [laughter] so thank you for your being game and sticking through it.

EO: Oh, sure.

TEM: Our last question is always what did you think we were going to ask, or something that you wanted to say as part of the interview that you didn't have a chance to say? We always like to give people a chance to say, thought you were going to ask this. I prepared my response [laughter]. So, do you have any prepared remarks [laughs]?

JF: I don't have any prepared remarks, but I think a good question to ask farmers is what were the biggest challenges they faced. And for us, or at least for me, it was not having access to health insurance. So, for 12 years I had no health insurance because of a preexisting condition, and nobody would insure me, and so I was sick a lot and that makes it really hard to farm. And maybe that's in the past now. Let's hope so, with... you know, if we get Medicare for All, or the Affordable Care Act is improved. I guess that's my speech.

EO: Yeah, that's a good one. I don't have a prepared speech [laughs] from an anticipated question. I do think that... farming is a very thoughtful profession, as much as it has to do with action. I feel like it's important to be thoughtful and I'm concerned... that thoughtfulness as a thing, as a quality is- that we continue to value it, whereas in terms of some of the technology and the pacing of life these days, I'm not sure if as much value is placed on it.

And I think some- A part of this experience which has been meaningful for Erin and Theo... I mean, I think we refer to ourselves basically as sticks in the mud or fuddy-duddies essentially because there are many traditions that we have stuck with simply for the fact that they work and we're not ready to abandon them in favor of something new. And I think it's been useful. A useful part of the experience of living and working here, for a lot of people, has been the exposure to that insistence on thoughtfulness, and not necessarily rushing.

And as Jeff mentioned, that can be at odds with the overall culture and with economic pressures. I mean, the bottom line should require thoughtfulness, and I think does to a certain extent because you have to think about what you're going to do that's going to be most efficient and most profitable and things in that way. But just the kind of thought that's necessary to delve into really complex questions of what can be most helpful for farmers in the future and for people who want to eat in the future, that takes time.

And we don't get paid for that time, and that shouldn't be the issue, really. I'm not trying to say that it's not important, you know, a wage, a living. That's certainly important, but it can't be the most important thing if this life is going to survive, I think.

TEM: And working in a university, I actually- I think about this a lot. What do we report as being impactful activities as part of the reports that we all have to produce because we work at a university? And that it feels like pondering and thinking are not always at the top of that list, and that there has to be space for thoughts to evolve, too [laughs]. You know, that you have to have that time and that breathing space in between the activities.

EO: Mm-hmm.

TEM: A time for breathing in between the pauses.

EO: Mm-hmm.

TEM: Do you think it's easier to be thoughtful here?

EO: Yes.

JF: Also, well, it's not during the growing season [laughter] because you're kind of [inaudible] up.

EO: Right. Maybe we should qualify that [laughter].

JF: But it is during the winter.

EO: Yeah, it is, and it isn't. I mean sometimes you have to go on a train trip or go see the ocean or...

TEM: [Chuckles]

JF: But I don't think either one of us could be thoughtful in a cubicle.

EO: Nope. Or in... in an urban situation where there's-

JF: Where there's a lot of noise in the background.

EO: A lot of noise and stimulus and...

JF: Maybe we would get used to it.

EO: Yeah.

JF: All right, if we're done with that [laughs] [stammers]-

EO: Did you think of another speech?

JF: Well, I have one thing. I mean we've touched on this a number of times, and I just want to point out that our greatest resource in learning how to farm has been other growers. I mean, certainly, there is a lot of written materials, and OSU's become more helpful in the last 15 years, but like OGC, I got involved with them right at the very beginning, and in the winter we would have meetings that had to do with business. But they would always develop into farming meetings because all these grow- we were all in the same boat. We were all bumbling around, and we could share our successes and failures, and we learned a huge amount from each other. And it's still like that. We go to a conference in the winter where people really share a lot of information, and there's a listserv where we can put out questions. So, that's been extremely helpful.

EO: Oh, that's really important for new farmers. I feel like sometimes people kind of think they can just do it with what they already know, and I think we're really shameless about asking other people what they're doing and-

JF: You are. I have too much pride [laughs].

MT: Well, it just needs to be one of you, right [laughter]?

EO: Division of labor [laughter].

TEM: Roles that work [laughter].

EO: Yeah, so... Yeah, you have to ask for help and really want to rely on and take advantage of the expertise that already exists. That's, you know- Yeah, we can try to offer and reach out, but really people have to reach for us as well. That has to be a part of the process, I feel like.

JF: What do you mean have to reach for us?

EO: People have to ask us about our experiences.

JF: Oh.

EO: You know, we can initiate some of the sharing about that, but really people have to ask us the questions that matter to them. You know, what rate do you use for seeding clover and just anything like that? How, what kind of insulation do you put on those hot water pipes [laughter] underground? I wish somebody would ask that, but [laughter].

MT: I was telling Tiah I saw the photo of your cat, [stammers] natural heat source sitting in your...

EO: [Laughs] In the greenhouse.

MT: I really loved that.

EO: Yeah.

TEM: I think we saw your cat helping out with the rodent population out there too.

EO: Also. [Laughter] Mm-hmm.

TEM: The cat seemed very interested in whatever was... it was munching on.

MT: It was eating. Yeah.

EO: Yeah, yeah.

JF: We just lost our main cat. He was 19 years old, and he was really struggling to get by, and he went out in the field and died just a couple weeks ago. I mean, we all knew it was going to come, so it- but it was- we've had a long life with him and that was kind of sad.

EO: Yeah, he was a champ [chuckles].

TEM: That's a long life for a cat, too.

EO: It is, yeah. We were all actually kind of amazed he lasted that long, especially because he used to get into trouble too [laughter]. So, okay, why did we end there [laughter]with a dead cat [laughter]?

TEM: Ah... flowers.

MT: That's seeing the realities of farmers. A reality check.

TEM: Yeah, that's...

EO: Yeah, yeah.

JF: I don't really- you asked what we expected you to ask us. I mean, I saw this that Melissa I guess sent us. That was you?

MT: Yeah, that was me.

JF: It was coming from you. So, I had some ideas of what you were after.

EO: And that was helpful, just to have the field narrowed a bit.

JF: Otherwise, I don't think I had any expectations.

MT: Yeah, because you guys have a lot of experience to draw from, so there would be a lot [laughter] to talk about.

JF: And I mean if you come up with more questions or if we have- you know, you can always check back with us. And sometimes we might have more to say too, so we might want to email you some other thoughts.

MT: Mm-hmm, of course.

TEM: Absolutely. Archives never stop. Thank you for taking the time to talk with us.

EO: Yeah, thanks for-

JF: Are you going to interview some other farm-

[Tape ends]