Veronica Vega Oral History Interview, June 27, 2018

VERONICA VEGA: I'm Veronica Vega. We are sitting in my office here at Deschutes Brewery or production facility. And you might have to help me with the date...it is June 27, 2018.

ANNA DVORAK: I am Anna Dvorak.

TIAH EDMUNSON-MORTON: And I am Tiah Edmunson-Morton.

AD: So, Tiah interviewed you and talked with you about a year ago now at this point I think?

VV: Mm-hm.

AD: What has changed in the last year for you?

VV: I mean, as part of the business, I was invited to senior management. That was a huge opportunity and I guess responsibility that I had to think over on. 00:01:00You know, I think easily we think we're not ready for something, and it again feels like a neck-stretch for me. But also evaluating, well, if I'm being asked, then others see something that I might not see. And I think as a woman in leadership, I think we need to take more of those risks even though we're not there in our own centers. We'll get there, and so I thought it was important for me as a person, but also in the future I want to be a part of mentoring women in their careers and hopefully in leadership. And those leaps are super important in learning how to be comfortable in those next steps.

AD: How has that changed your job or your responsibilities at Deschutes?

VV: Logistically, sure, it adds more meetings. I think, just, the responsibility of the people we are responsible for. I definitely feel part of our 550 families, and now I feel a lot more responsibility to them and to continue to make good decisions to make this a fantastic place of employment. I have had a really great conversation with Paul Arney at a bar a while ago, and we talked about the responsibility of business compared to leaning on government. So almost like business having just a very important role. I definitely feel that right now in our country, where it might feel like it's so hard to reach something like healthcare on a grand scale. But what I can do in this company 00:03:00for 500 families in terms of health care is massively impactful and I think I feel like I am doing more by being a leader in this type of company as opposed to, like, politically. [Laughs.] You know what I mean? So, I feel very blessed to be able to make an impact through my work as opposed to having to additionally work very hard. And just where I am in my life, with my family, my kids, I just feel great that I can do that within my work.

AD: You mentioned mentoring. Do you think of that as a future thing or is that something that you still do now?

VV: Right now I'm in the learning phase, and I almost feel like just starting to reach out to groups locally that mentor in STEAM/STEM, and I have this desire to 00:04:00do so. But at the same time, again, I wonder, maybe I should take on a mentor and see what that role is like and just immerse myself in those groups. As opposed to really not knowing what a young lady would like. I only have my own experience in my own career, but I am definitely becoming a lot more passionate about seeing women in the workplace. I think in STEM disciplines, in education, academia, the split is quite even, but then in the workforce is where the split shifts towards male dominant. And so it's just super important for us to continue to show women in those roles, so that young ladies know that those are 00:05:00possibilities for them. And also to shift the society responsibilities between the home life [and the work life] - I mean there's so much that has to change for us to make that a little bit more equal in the future.

AD: Yeah, it's interesting that you mention STEM. Because I was thinking just mentoring women or people in the brewing world.

VV: Yeah, that has definitely shifted in the past year or two. A mentality of not just, how do we get more women in beer? In my experience, I get a lot of interviews on "What's your experience as a woman in the brewing field?" that sort of thing. I have valued journalists that have mentioned, let's not talk about your personal experiences as a woman in the brewing industry, let's just ensure we're bringing your voice to our publications and what we write about so 00:06:00that we also just have diversity in outlooks and in opinions. That, to me, is way more interesting than just talking about my personal experience. Then I looked around, I'm working with Val Cunningham, our PR in communications, and we're both Latina women. And I have seen that it's not just in the brewing. In the production facility we have the maintenance staff, engineering staff. We have brewery operations technology, of course we have our lab. And in most of those we do not have equal representation, and so it just seems like there's a bigger solve and it would be really cool to get more women not just in the brewing department, but in all these other disciplines out there.

AD: And that this is a career that you can go into.

VV: Exactly! Yes, someone with an IT background might not know this possibility 00:07:00of operations technology in a brewery. What a fascinating job that could be for someone. And without knowing the opportunity, and providing internships, providing just a glimpse into that, yeah, you would not know. And so, I think of course the people who get bit by the charm of being a brewer, that's limited, and then there's a broader scope. I think that has become a lot more interesting to me in the past year.

AD: And only so many people can be brewers. There's so much that goes beyond.

VV: Right, exactly. And not everybody wants to. [Laughs.] And not everybody wants to.

TEM: [Laughs.]

VV: And that's how it should be, because it takes a really unique individual to be able to deal with the challenges and the grunt work of brewing.

AD: What do you think makes a good brewer? It takes a certain person.

VV: I think it takes a certain level of spunk and fire, and energy and drive. It 00:08:00takes a certain work ethic to be able to be willing to clean and to do everything it takes to make things sanitary and clean. There's, you know, some orderliness to it. A person who's very comfortable multitasking constantly. And then there's just a certain fire that needs to be lit internally to be able to do it, because it's really challenging. [Laughs.] As a career to walk into something that will always be challenging. I think of an analogy like a ski slope or whatever, like, if you put a person who's not skilled and willing and happy to go down a black diamond, they're gonna be miserable. Equally, you know, if you throw a person into this very challenging job, they're gonna be 00:09:00miserable. Someone will have to want to be challenged constantly.

TEM: I have a question before we move on, for mentoring. Did you feel like you had a mentor?

VV: Yeah, I've had several. I still do. They're mostly male. That's where I think it would be great to reach out to women in leadership outside of this discipline just to see their perspective. But absolutely, I think of my training being a part of Deschutes Brewery. Of course there's education in there, it has taken mentors for me to be comfortable in taking different roles in this company. I'm very grateful to them.

TEM: What did you take from them? What was helpful for you, recognizing that at 00:10:00different points in your career you needed different things. [Laughs.]

VV: Yep.

TEM: But what were the things that you found valuable, just to have that person to guide you? And maybe how has that changed over your career?

VV: Yeah. I'd be happy to speak specifically about people.

TEM: Sure.

VV: The first mentor, I would say, was Paul Arney through my pub brewing time. He really brought a level of craft in that you're, like, honing something, and you have a responsibility, and there's a love for the history and the story. But also to take the risk of using ingredients, things that are important to you, to your history, and kind of sow that into your recipes. I mean, he obviously showed me just how to calculate recipes - that was, like, step one - but then 00:11:00what was really enriching was bring your soul into it. And he allowed a space for that. Extremely valuable. I work alongside Brian Faivre, and Brian is extremely inventive and always wants to zag where the industry...if all breweries do it this way, Brian wants to figure out a very inventive way. I don't consider myself to be, even though I'm in innovation and new product development, I don't consider myself to be mind-blowingly innovative. I would consider myself creative, but he is innovative. And so I really respect and value that. He also takes a lot of steps in working on his own leadership skills. And Andy Tysler, our VP of sales, when I see him, he's the one I look to 00:12:00when it comes to leadership. I see how he runs a meeting, how he appreciates people. Just those kind of logistical things that I'm always tuning into, like wow, that was - some of it might be cheesy, and some of it - there's really good nuggets on what I might even that same day take to my team, take to a meeting. He has a level of poise there I really admire.

TEM: Sounds like good modelling in a way.

VV: Exactly!

TEM: [Laughs.] It's like modelling behavior!

VV: Mm-hm.

AD: So let's shift, because this is anniversary week, and today is the thirtieth birthday of the opening of the pub, what does it mean to work for a company that's thirty years old, that has this history?

VV: Yeah. It's funny because it's colored by this year of, like, the first time 00:13:00we have been down in the thirty years of growth. I think it's easy for us to forget that we had 29 years of not making enough beer, and then all of a sudden we had room. So, it's different challenges. You know, I read back at what the challenges are for some of the small local breweries that are growing They have CapEx issues, they have growing pains, they can't make enough beer. We were there, so sometimes I think there's almost a feeling of jealousy that, oh my gosh, they can't make enough beer, and here we are, with extra capacity. But, we were there. It's almost like, you think of a lifetime. The teenager might be jealous that the kindergartner doesn't have any homework.

AD, TEM: [Laughs.]

VV: But they have that time in their life, and so we had that time in our life, in our evolution that things were hard. And I certainly wouldn't want the challenges that we had then, that those brewers are facing, but we have new challenges. And so I think it's coming at a really interesting time because things are turning around, so it's a lot of reflection on...we have so much to be proud of to get here. And we're so energized for the future with seeing things turn around in a positive way.

TEM: In the industry or in the company? What feels like it's changing and turning right now?

VV: Well, our numbers are changing. We've been, like I said, because this past year was the first year we didn't sell more beer than the year prior, and I'm very numbers focused so it feels bad. It's just a morale type of thing, where, 00:15:00oh no, for 29 years we've been making more beer every single year and this is the first year we haven't, and now finally the numbers are coming around.

TEM: Ok, that makes sense.

AD: And Iost my train of thought.

TEM: Man, that's why it's challenging to have me in the room. [Laughs]

AD: I know! This is kind of switching gears, but you had more opportunities the past year to experiment, because you have the pilot plant now.

VV: Yeah, yeah. The pilot plant has been, oh my gosh, it's been awesome. An example is we have a pilsner that we're going to put out on the market. We're able in a month to do twelve recipes, all single hopped, and answer all those questions that would have taken us at least a year through the pubs to do all that. So, that speed is fantastic. The list of everything we want to test is 00:16:00massive. We're extremely curious. And so I think that that's a new challenge for me in my job, is just prioritizing, and what do we really want to know, and what can we shelve, and that sort of thing. So that's kind of the hardest thing. The resources now are just people to run it, because we have the tanks, the brewing set-up, it's making great beer. But as we shift with the personnel in the brewing department, to put resources there we really have to make sure we're making good decisions on what to brew over there.

TEM: Do you know what's up next on the brew system?

VV: Yeah, we're brewing a line extension of the Fresh Squeezed family. So we're fine-tuning Lil' Squeezy this week.

TEM: That's such a cute - Lil' Squeezy!

All: Laughter

VV: Yeah, so we want that impact of the IPA aroma and the citrus and juiciness of Fresh Squeezed. Take that inspiration but bringing it down to a 5% beer. Someone who doesn't want something as full-bodied, satiating and with the alcohol can still enjoy that type of flavor impact.

TEM: Can you say why having a pilot plant brewery is a big deal? Or why is it something that Anna would ask about?

VV: Well, first off, product development, but speed to market is a true challenge that for a business to be competitive we must have. On the research side, it kind of tickles me a bit more and I wish we had a little bit more time to focus on research. It's exciting to me to think that a large regional craft brewer like ours can contribute to research for future. In the past that has 00:18:00really been owned by large macrobreweries because they have the resources to do so. So to have a senior management team that is willing to put the capital to invest in that and to not just say, no, we're only gonna do stuff for us. You know, we are allocating a certain percentage of the brews over there to do research for research's sake. To partner with OSU and to kind of pick what questions we want to answer this year.

AD: What is your partnership with OSU like? Do you bring, cause they have a Fermentation program, do you bring their students over?

VV: It's multifaceted. When it comes to interns, we definitely turn to them to get interns. So they are feeding our future workforce for sure. When it comes to their research projects, we are partnering with Pat Hayes and his barley breeding research. It's great to have opportunities to say yes. You know, he's 00:19:00breeding different barleys, growing them in different areas in Oregon, and malting them at the OSU mini-malter, and then we have a small enough pilot system where we can actually brew. And his questions are, does the variety of barley contribute to beer flavor? So, very complicated project, but I'm proud to say that we're a part of contributing to research.

AD: We kind of got off on a little bit of a tangent there from the 30 years. And the pilot plant. Do you have a favorite Deschutes memory? Because you've been here for twelve years? Longer? You've been in Bend for longer.

VV: Yes, about twelve, I've been in Bend. I think I probably mentioned it in the past interview, but Deschutes before I worked here was such an integral part of my social life. That Monday night just to come there was so important. So I 00:20:00remember those days and now how different they are. I mean, now all my friends have families and we have to do this big coordination effort, like, to get to the pub at the same time! [Laughs.] Then our kids are fed and not driving the servers crazy. I mean, I miss brewing at the pub. I miss putting on my grains and having my soundtrack for the day and just blasting my music and being kind of in the flow. Because I think that's really different from what I do now. Now it's like multitasking in a different form and you're moving from one subject in one meeting, to the next hour you're talking about something else and planning for the future and all that. Where, back then, it just felt good: today I am brewing this beer. There's a stop and a start. [Laughs.] A start and stop and 00:21:00you get a product at the end, and you very readily see the value in people's feedback and people's happiness in drinking it. I miss that for sure.

AD: There's definitely a more concrete product. You can touch it.

VV: Exactly, exactly.

TEM: One of my favorite stories that you told was that I have chuckled to myself about - not because it was funny to you at the time - but you having morning sickness.

VV: Oh yeah, oh my gosh. I can't remember how in-depth I went on that one, but that's one of my sillier Deschutes memories of walking in with my husband, having to, like, hose down.

TEM: That smell, the power of smell.

VV: Exactly.

AD: Do you have a favorite Deschutes beer?

VV: It's always in the moment. Right now I'm really excited about the Ages. It's 00:22:00out in a package. It's our first beer in our 500 ml bottle. A blend of four, some barrels are four years old, some are three, some are one. And then I'm just really excited about our small batch reserve series and how that's evolving. We're getting more fruit and sours into that bottle, so I'm extremely excited about that. These collaborations this year have been really cool, to learn the stories of how Deschutes impacted a lot of these past brewers. So I feel like we bring a little soul to the beer. [Laughs.] And so I've been drinking a lot of Oh Be Joyful, our collaboration with John Harris. That was a beer I loved personally we brewed at the pub. I'd love the clamoring I'd get from the customers seeing Oh Be Joyful written on the brew board, and them asking "Is it 00:23:00ready yet? Is it ready yet?" and all of us enjoying it for a couple of months. So to later on meet John, hear his history of how he brewed the beer, and how he came to it, how it evolved through Paul. Then when I was brewing it, how we modernized it even further when we put it out recently, has been a really cool story and a really fun beer to drink.

AD: It's interesting to see the evolution of the beer itself. That it has changed.

VV: Oh, yeah. That beer, we learned, was a Northern Brewer hop, and John would say it was because that was one of the cheaper hops that Gary would let him buy! [Laughs.] He didn't have a lot of money! And then when Paul took over the pub, he kind of turned that recipe into an all Amarillo beer. And people started getting to know it as an Amarillo Pale Ale. And he experimented with different 00:24:00forms of Amarillo, whether it's pellets, whole-leaf, T-35, that sort of thing. So I maintained that, changing how we used Amarillo, but maintained it as an Amarillo Pale Ale. And so in this version we just massively hopped Amarillo in the fermenter, so it's a really big hoppy pale ale. Yeah. It's fun.

TEM: Can you talk more about the collaboration and other favorite ones that you have right now?

VV: Yeah. Well, there's folks that I haven't met yet that I'm very excited to meet this week. Frank Appleton, he was a consultant that Gary brought in to help open the pub. So he worked with John Harris, and so Frank Appleton formulated original Black Butte Porter, which is, you know, our bedrock. So, to be able to 00:25:00meet him this week will be great. He worked with Robin at the pub, and he made a sweet stout. It's called Origin Story Stout. So that will be fun to drink. And I've met Tim Gossack, got to meet him through this. He was another past brew master; he now runs the packaging department at Bell's Brewing. So, just to see his career, and see him at another large regional brewery in a leadership role and hearing his stories...just seeing those guys together, you know seeing him and Mark Vickery, I can't wait to see them in the same room. It totally feels like a family reunion. And to some folks - like Paul is part of the collaboration - he's very tied to him as a friend. But to others, these are like uncles I've never met or something like that. [Laughs.] So it's gonna be just 00:26:00fun to be in the room. A lot more fun than an actual family reunion, because, you know, it's a beer family. [Laughs.]

TEM: [Laughs.]

VV: So, to hear their challenges and their memories and all those stories that will bubble up, I really can't wait. With Bell's Brewing we did a Schwarzbier, so a dark lager that we'll put in a can. So, any time we get to put a dark beer out I'm excited. And then with Paul Arney we did a beer that won't be released yet. We want to be true to everybody's...where they've landed. So, you know, with Paul's model, it's slow and the process takes time, and we let the beer tell us, and it's a very small volume, and it's locally sourced ingredients. So, I love that, and so to be able to be true to his business model and the beer 00:27:00we're making with, like, locally sourced heirloom apples and a sour beer. So that will be exciting.

TEM: I talked to him yesterday afternoon and just that time perspective is so interesting.

VV: Right.

TEM: It feels emotional in a way. In a good way, but the patience required.

VV: It does. Right, right. I mean any excuse - we're all so busy, and he's just right down the street - so this has just been an excuse to be able to see each other! [Laughs.]

TEM: [Laughs.]

VV: Every couple months and talk. Yeah.

AD: Were you able to help brew? How did the collaboration process work?

VV: Yeah. So, we in the R&D group, we separated out who's gonna run point on these collaborations. Collaborations are a lot of cat herding. All breweries are 00:28:00busy at all times, and so to get all the details sorted out, you just needed folks to run point on what's the recipe look like, what are we naming it, that sort of thing. So, Ranch McGee ran point on the Bell's collaboration, the Oh Be Joyful. And then we were able to utilize the pilot system, and so Kyle Matthias would formulate toward the pilot system with running it, and we were able to test the beers and then send them to these brewers and say, "What do you think?" So there's a conversation there, and we could do this, we could do the other. And I think that's really where the collaboration part comes in, on, we're going to be stewards of this, but we want your input. And then we want a party. [Laughs.]

AD: [Laughs.] That's the most important part anyway.

VV: Exactly, exactly. And then with Paul's [model], there's a lot more blending 00:29:00and tasting and that sort of thing. Ryan and I would walk over to Paul's, and taste. Robin worked with Frank, really over the phone, on the recipe. And so he'll be tasting it for the first time this week.

TEM: Are you going to switch from collaborations? Because I have another question about collaborations.

AD: You can go.

TE: What was surprising to you about this scale of collaboration? You were talking about the organizational need, but what was surprising? And you can see surprising as like a "Wow, I didn't think that would happen!" or "Wow, that happened."

VV: Yeah. I feel silly saying this, but knowing our thirtieth was happening (we started talking about this like two years ago), we know we're gonna be doing collaborations. The list of people that were potentials, when we first talked to 00:30:00Gary, was like a list of twelve. So my anxiety just started building in my throat. [Laughs.]

TEM: [Laughs.]

VV: Just, this was going to be impossible! And I think when we whittled it down to this is A, what we can do, maybe this number, and these are folks that we still have a great relationship with that are doing good work in independent craft beer, and that sort of thing. Even having five collaborations in a year can be an overwhelming amount of work, because of all the small details. What was surprising was just how fulfilling it was, honestly. And that's the part I feel silly saying. You'd think, of course, it's gonna be fulfilling, but they truly have not felt like a burden because they're all rift with stories. I mean, I haven't mentioned our collaborating with Crux. What was great there, both 00:31:00Larry and Cam spent a lot of time here, a lot of their careers here, and contributed a lot to Deschutes. But then we're very much...they want to do their own thing. So I think there was a level of...I don't know if like a separation space, where they're doing their own thing. We really weren't, for as close in proximity we were, sure we'd help each other out with a bag of malt, that sort of thing, but there wasn't a lot of just natural back and forth, and this was a real opportunity to get them back. And to talk about where we are the same, and where those conversations always ended up on, "We're independent craft beer." So, we are within that family, we need to be supportive of each other, and there are challenges out there that both companies even at different sizes are facing that are the same. And so, those are really cool conversations to have with them.

TEM: I'm curious - say as much or as little as you want to about this - but I'm curious, these are people who have left the company for various reasons. Did it feel - now I will sound cheesy - did it feel healing?

VV: Oh! I would say for sure. Yeah! Yeah, it's funny because I'll bring Paul's joke. They are gonna call their collaboration, just internally, they've been calling it "No Hard Feelings." [Laughs.] Because there's always this knowledge that when you part ways there might be a little bit of a wound. And they're all for different reasons. And so with some people time has healed that, and then they think back on "No, my time there was pretty special," and that sort of thing. And that's why maybe collaboration with Crux is [significant, because] 00:33:00both those guys left fairly recently compared to everyone else we've worked with. And so where we might have felt a little - I don't want to say, you know, a huge wound (that's probably not appropriate) - but just maybe a chafe. [Laughs.] It felt really great to work on something that was meaningful to both Larry and Cam. I mean, Red Chair was something that Larry worked on here. And Fresh Squeezed was something that Cam did. So to make Fresh Chair and to have their input and kind of be reminded of how we used to sit in a room and taste beer, and the same little questions and interactions were...it was almost like we just picked up where we left off. You know we did our, "everyone point to the same beer at the same time," which is how we used to make decisions. [Laughs.] 00:34:00And it was pretty fun. And again, those conversations of where we are the same as opposed to where we are different. Because I think that might have been like a little chafe, like on, we're big, the small local brewery, and that sort of thing. I would say for me, knowing that they understand that we're facing the same challenges as they are and that we should be helping each other.

TEM: Paul said that it was meaningful for him to be asked. It felt good to be asked, it felt good to be included.

VV: Good.

AD: It is, it's about this legacy. That, no matter how you left or when you left, you still are a part of these thirty years. You can't just wipe that.

VV: Yeah. And it's funny, I go back to that list, I felt since I only knew maybe three or four people on the list, I thought, "How are we going to make this 00:35:00choice?" Because a lot of people have contributed, and then with where we landed, it felt like these were obvious. Like, how did the light not part and just show? [Laughs.]

TEM: [Laughs.]

VV: We just ended up there organically, but it totally makes sense on why we collaborated with all these guys.

AD: You had mentioned the influence Paul had on you with how you look at ingredients. In our conversation with him yesterday, he emphasizes the local. And his local is his brewery and this one plot of land. Do you try to source local or look towards central Oregon when you are thinking about beers?

VV: Absolutely. I think what I was trying to get at was he created a space on what triggers you positively, and what you're interested in, your history, your 00:36:00ethnicity, and all of that in your beer. And it just so happens that botany is a love of mine, will always be. And so I naturally...I know what our native plants are, I know mostly what's edible what's not. I feel a tie to the land because of that. I just consider myself a naturalist. And so that just comes from my own interest. And so it's really fun to be able to feel that's not just an interest of mine, but when we put it in our beers, that the consumer is interested in it too. I think when I was at the pub, my first go-to was to reach to my Mexican culture and bring in not local ingredients but the ingredients that were...like tamarind and piloncillo sugar and those types of things that I wasn't seeing at the time in a lot of beers. Now you see everything. [Laughs.] But I felt like 00:37:00that was a way to bring myself authentically to my recipes. Yeah.

AD: So you see the ingredients as being very important. I'm trying to think how to ask this question - do you find an ingredient, you find the sagebrush, do you want to make a beer for that, or do you see, I guess, the beer, and then want to go find the ingredients to make that?

VV: Mm-hm. I think with beer we're so lucky to have this foundation of all these styles. And so in order to make something unique - everything's been made before - so if you think of something that in a traditional style, like a Vienna lager, how do you make it unique? How do you bring interest to it? You might take that historical recipe and then bring a unique ingredient that you think will pair 00:38:00well with whatever other malts and hops you're working with. How to modernize it, how to bring interest to it - that's how I've thought about it. I kind of think of, oh, if we're gonna make a beer kind of driven by flavor, so flavor first maybe with style makes sense, and then how to bring interest to it.

TEM: How do you, how do you balance - now I need to think of how to ask this question. So, I'm thinking about the sagebrush that I brought in for you to identify, which seems funny now if I think about the sagebrush, classic "it's everywhere", but there are these, resources are limited, and some of the really special things, there is only so much of that plant or that flower. And so, as someone who works at a larger company, how do you balance that kind of creative 00:39:00curiosity with the limits of your responsibility as a naturalist? Does that make sense?

VV: Yeah, it does, it does. Sagebrush is a perfect example. When it was made at the pub, it was hand foraged. And, that's possible at a ten-barrel batch. When we started to scale it, not only did we start to think of just federal regulations of where that plant lies, in usage. And it's not an approved plant to be using if you're going to be going across state lines, that sort of thing. And there's the sustainability aspect. Are we going to be having people just tromping around in the woods, like, collecting pounds and pounds of sage for us to be making a large volume of beer? [Laughs.] So when we went to scale, we then 00:40:00took culinary sage and then worked to match the flavor that we were getting from the local sage. So to me, I just think of all of our different outlets and our opportunities for different outlets. And the pubs are where we have lots of opportunity to use local honey. You know, I have a bunch of bees at my property that feed on my lavender and the grass and all that. And then Robin used that honey to make a honey cream ale at the pub. Probably couldn't scale that, but important for someone to come to the pub to look at what unique beers we're making, that we have these outlets to do so. Our small batch reserve is where we can bring locally sourced peaches and those sorts of smaller volumes. But there is opportunity at scale to still think of local farmers and think of supporting them when it comes to fruit in Oregon. We have lots of, not even just farmers, 00:41:00but packers, processors of fruit, that are Oregon grown. And they put 'em in nice pumpable packages that we can buy. So we're still supporting local farms, we just have to be mindful of our scale and the outlet that we are going for. Same with barley. Locally grown barley is becoming very popular and, again, I feel a responsibility to help support local farmers. We can't do that at scale, but I think it's important for us to continue to think about it on the pub scale, on the small batch scale.

TEM: Yeah, it seems like in a way that's kind of the best of both worlds.

VV: Mm-hm. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

AD: So what is still exciting to you about your job? You've been here for twelve years.

VV: Yeah.

AD: And you've had many different jobs.

VV: I thought about this walking in, that certainly what's changed of interest 00:42:00is I still love the creative side. But I get to involve some of our younger brewers, our newer brewers, and to hear their ideas is really motivating to me. And to be able to hopefully direct it into a project that will actually get into beer is really exciting. Once in a while, you know, I might throw an idea out there. [Laughs.] But at this point I'm begging the pub brewers and the pilot brewers. "What do you think? Do you wanna brew this? Do you mind? Do you think this is cool?" But I think that responsibility piece is certainly motivating. It's also really challenging. Sometimes I wonder, "Gosh, is this really what I want to be doing? This is a lot of pressure." But I think of our 550 families 00:43:00and I think of what positive impact I can be making through beer. Not just by making it, but how our income in beer is providing a good life for people is motivating in the times where I'm...struggling. [Laughs.] Yeah.

TEM: I'm, I don't know of this is a segue, it's sort of a return to something. When you were talking, you saying the families thing reminded me, can you talk about why diversity - and define that however you would define that, that can be socioeconomic, that can be gender, that can be race, class - why is that important in a larger [company]? And why is that important in industry? Why is 00:44:00diversity of perspective important?

VV: I mean, the answer I come to immediately is because your consumer is diverse. And wouldn't you want it to be even more diverse? So, what I have found to be really beneficial is when it comes to product development and just the meetings where we're tasting beers, thinking of the customer. In the past it's been really brewer focused, so maybe your CEO, maybe Gary, and then all brewers are tasting these beers. However, that's not the consumer. It's shifting a little bit more closer to 50-50, we're not there yet male-female. Certainly, there's definitely different demographics in race and socioeconomics as you mentioned, so just to bring people to the table that are actually helping to give input that will sway my decision on how sour to make a beer, or how hoppy 00:45:00to make a beer. I think looking out and having a diverse set of people at the table helps me understand, potentially, our consumer base, or what we want our consumer base [to be like], how they'll be experiencing our beers.

TEM: Mm-hm. Well in the last year, something that the Brewer's Association, as an organization, has been talking about more concretely, talking a lot about diversity and what that means. Has that industry discussion changed the way that you think? And I guess the other question that I had is culturally, politically, we are in a different space than we were a couple of years ago.

VV: Right, right. I don't know if the BA conversation - I'm happy it's been had 00:46:00- but I don't know if it's personally swayed the way I have thought differently. I think I'm influenced by reading what's going on in tech or in other industries and seeing problems that we could solve within the brewery. And that's why that interest in STEM started formulating. So it really didn't come from the BA, but just, there are larger problems to solve I think. We in Oregon, we're just not a diverse state. [Laughs.] So we have a lot of work to do. But, I mean, I certainly see the value of different perspectives and what they bring to the table. You're just going to get better decisions when you hear different 00:47:00perspectives. Personally, it's important to me. My daughter goes to a dual-immersion school and that brings for Bend, Oregon diversity in socioeconomics, which is very hard to get here, and also just racial. Because I think it's important for her to see different people and to interact and to see that people have different challenges and that sort of thing. If she only saw our life, she's not getting a good indication of what is out there. So, I don't know if I answered your question.

TEM: You did. Well, but the other thing that I have been thinking about, and we talked last time and what I've talked to lots of women about is what it's like to be a woman in brewing. And I'm curious how the past year has shaped the way that people have talked to you. Or has it changed the way people have talked to 00:48:00you about being a woman in the brewing industry?

VV: Yeah. I mean, I still have had those asks too, to interview and talk about that, but - I'm pausing because I cannot remember his name - he's a journalist in Portland.

TE: Jeff Alworth

VV: Yes.

TE: [Laughs.]

VV: Thank you. I very much valued an article he wrote, and then I had a follow up conversation with him. He was really the first person that has said, "Let's just bring diversity to the conversation, let's not talk about your experience." And that was like a hallelujah, yes. You know? Like, let's normalize this, let's not continue to make it unique. "You're experience is different, tell us about it." Let's normalize and bring different voices to the table. Yeah.

TEM: I met him not long after it [the article] came out, and I said it made me cry. It was really, really powerful.

VV: It was fantastic. That shift is what I really hope we do in the future. And that might come from my own choices on if you have that, that ask to talk about your experience, either say no or to try to shift their questions on, let's ask a broader question and invite my voice. You know?

TEM: Well, and I think something that he and I talked about is in our social, cultural world right now as Americans, it feels like in the last year the Me Too and Time's Up movements, the hashtag movements, have given us a vocabulary or a 00:50:00structure within which to talk about this maybe at a more general level. So it's not just talking to individual women but thinking outside of the industry about STEM, thinking about within the industry for lots of different questions and perspectives.

VV: Right. And it makes me think of another thing that Val brought up which I thought was so cool, is that there are other problems to solve, and trying to get diversity into our doors. For example, she mentioned that childcare is a true issue for people in Bend. So we might be able to help other broader scope challenges to getting women in the workforce if we also as a business look to in some way at least consider what's going on in childcare out there in order to allow for women for to work. Yeah.

TEM: Somebody suggested a kid bus at OSU. That there would be a bus that would 00:51:00drive to all the schools and pick up all the children and then drop them off. Somebody do that.

VV: Yes! [Laughs.] I'm surprised that when we do have that conversation at the table on taste this beer, tell me what you think, everyone who is not a brewer is always apologetic and nervous at first to tell us. Because they're like, "I don't know what I'm getting, I'm not a brewer," and it's almost like a coaxing. If we'd only have brewers in the room, you would only have that thought in what brewers want. Our customers are not brewers. I want you to tell me, is it too bitter? Even if it's like the broadest paint strokes. Do you like it? Yes or no. What do you like about it? What do you not like about it? Is it too this, is it too that? That's highly valuable to get that. People who are not that diverse 00:52:00set of voices.

TEM: I think it's interesting just to think about diversity in broader brushstrokes.

AD: So, obviously you have a life outside of the brewery. And you've been in Bend and chosen to be in Bend for 15 years? Almost?

VV: Thirteen years?

AD: I'm trying to do quick math! [laughs]

TEM: Let me look at my notes from last year!

AD: What do you love about Bend?

VV: The smell. I honestly love the sagebrush and juniper smell. I love the crispness of the air, I love the water. It is, oh, when I come back from a trip, the first thing I do is drink water. I live on a well, but even if you go just 00:53:00to a hotel in Bend and you're drinking at the hotel, it's delicious water. It's silly to think that that's what I value the most in Bend, but when you do travel you realize how special that is. That everything here just feels very clean natural resource wise. I like that there's a lot of bustle, there's a lot of great food, there's a great community, but then you can escape very easily. The older I get...now I live on the edge of town, and sometimes on the weekends I don't like to come into town, and I tend to sit out there with our pastures and animals. Might go on a hike. Make a choice of where I go hike on where I am not going to run into anyone. And so it allows for both those things. But at the same time I could also jump on my bike here and meet a friend for delicious lunch a couple blocks away. So, the art, the music, the things that the bustle 00:54:00brings, are positives.

TEM: How has, you know the OSU campus isn't that big yet, but has that, has having a kind of another college - higher education, has that changed the level of bustle? I don't know if there's a real impact yet because I think it's still relatively small.

VV: Yeah, it's almost shocking to me how quickly. You know it's happening, but you might not go to that side of town for three months, and then you go there and it's like, "Oh, this is happening." [Laughs.] And I certainly find myself doing that. Because I head in that direction when I go home, and I just do not see what is happening. So, just the speed of it has been kind of a shock to me. But I love having a higher education facility here. I love even just the thought 00:55:00of having people who are in that time of their life. It's such a cool time of your life just to be on your own and putting the time into yourself to learn. I think that makes better citizens. So we have now people going back to school and getting their masters. I mean, education is definitely a value that was given to me through my family and upbringing, so I love that culture that it brings. So, I might be less on, sure, it's gonna add more traffic and all that, but I think of it I guess more positively. I want to see our interaction evolve. It's really baby-stepping right now on how we can help each other. We still work with OSU in Corvallis a lot more. So, to see how that transitions, and how, potentially, we 00:56:00work with folks just down the street is gonna be great.

TEM: Well, I think it'll be interesting. Corvallis is a really long way from a place like Baker City or Enterprise, and, obviously, Bend is closer. So it'll be interesting to see how it draws, how it connects the valley to the eastern part of the state.

VV: Right. And I've been thinking more recently - I mean, our tie to Corvallis is obviously the fermentation program - but to think of what disciplines they are focusing on here. Something like sustainability, that could be very helpful to us to partner with us in the future for some of our sustainability efforts. And just looking at, what do you have here that we could think about. Internships, other work experience, that sort of thing.

AD: It's new, fresher faces in town too. It's young people. It's a vibrancy.

VV: Exactly.

AD: It complements Bend and what it is. I think it's interesting with what you said you love about Bend, you know, of course, I asked what you love and not what you hate about it, but I think you picked the things that make Bend, Bend. That despite how many people here you still have the water, and you have nature and you can get outside. It might take longer to get there, or harder to think about what trail you're gonna walk.

VV: It really isn't - you know. I find myself complaining about how long it takes to get from one side of town to the other. We don't have a good cross-system infrastructure wise. Bend is this case-study of growth that happened very quickly, and perhaps the infrastructure and the city planning not up to speed with what was coming. But, you know, twenty minutes. And we're out 00:58:00in the middle of the desert. [Laughs.]

AD: [Laughs.]

VV: It's pretty special.

AD: Well, and it sounds like you have a place to escape to.

VV: We called our little ranch Lucky Six because we feel very lucky to be there. That's six acres. We feel lucky for the time we slipped in where it was actually affordable for us, but we also just feel lucky to be able to live where I see cows out my window. Just this morning I was putting water out to the pastures and just smelling the sagebrush. It's a great way to start your day.

AD: Are the cows yours?

VV: No! That's the best part! [Laughs.]

AD: [Laughs.]

TEM: [Laughs.]

VV: Yeah! I have goats, which are a little bit more manageable. But I do love that there's pastures around us, and so other people's horses, other people's cows, I get to experience. "Oh, the cows are coming out!" Or, like, "They're moving the horses to another pasture." But I don't have to feed them and care 00:59:00for them. [Laughs.]

TEM: Sounds like other people's kids. Like "oh baby!" and it's now back with you.

VV: I tend to my wildflower garden and my goats. That's what I do.

AD: And this ties back, I mean, you grew up on a farm, right?

VV: Yeah, I definitely thank my parents were...it takes a lot of effort to make that choice because then you become a commuter and you have kids and you're taxiing them all over town. It's definite effort, but it is still that gratitude for that peace you feel out there. Sure, it adds a lot more chores to your list, but they're very fulfilling chores. I hope to give that to my kids. It's not just how I want to live my life, it's how I want to show my kids, "Well, if we want a woodburning stove, then wood needs to be stacked." [Laughs.] If you want 01:00:00to be cozy, then there's other things that need to be done.

TEM: I remember asking you about that last year, about vacations or travel that you did. And you were like, we didn't do that. There was a level of responsibility for your family, your family's life.

VV: And that's kind of made my choices on how many animals to take on, because I just know what a horse brings to you. And so, for example, last week I went camping with my family for a week, another experience I feel is equally important to give to your kids. But I did not experience that growing up. So I feel very blessed to be able to give them both: living outside of town, but still being able to go on trips together.

TEM: [Laughs.] To leave that space outside of town.

VV: Exactly.

AD: So they help take care of the goats?

VV: You know, goats are very self-manageable. [Laughs.] We have a pasture, so 01:01:00you make sure they're watered and move them from time to time. Which is hysterical.

TEM: How many goats do you have?

VV: Four.

TEM: Small herd.

AD: Shows how much I know about agriculture, growing up in metro Detroit. There were no goats. Now maybe there might be more goats and farms.

TEM: They're using the land, filling the big old car lots with goats.

AD: Yep, you gotta do something

VV: [Laughs.]

TEM: I have a question, another change over the last year question. What has it been like for Gary to retire? As a company there have been a lot of shifts 01:02:00administratively, managerially, in leadership.

VV: Mm-hm.

TEM: What has it been like to have that kind of shift, just people shift?

VV: Yeah. It's been interesting. When Michael took over as CEO, Gary took some time off. And I think that was to allow Michael to really take the helm, as it were. I think, no matter what Gary's role or title is, when he's here we are extremely tied to his directives and his opinions and we want him to be happy with the direction we're going, the decisions we're making. So, now that he's back it's kind of a new navigation point to me on knowing our business 01:03:00challenges, knowing our financial challenges, knowing our CapEx, all those business type things. How to continue to chip away at being more efficient and being better, while still taking the inspiration that Gary brings in terms of craftsmanship, nurturing artistry and continuing to ensure we don't lose our soul in trying to be more efficient and grow. I kind of see that as his role, sometimes I can't take his questions too literal because he might say, "We must do this," when then I have to go to a different team of people to actually get funding approval and they say no. So there's a little bit of a tug and pull there, but the way I've been able to balance it is just to then take inspiration 01:04:00from Gary. He has that vision, whether you have to go back and explain why we can't be putting a cork and cage in right now or that sort of thing. I also want that, and so as opposed to feeling down that I can't do what both he and I would aspire to do, just use that as a motivator as opposed to feeling too tugged between the two forces. And some days are better than others. [Laughs.]

TEM: Well, I imagine that we are at this time where the people who really had to do everything themselves and grow these companies, they are now at the age where they might not like to retire and literally leave the company. But that they are in this kind of transitioning away from being the pinnacle of the triangle. So I 01:05:00feel lucky to be talking to people at Deschutes over time because I think it's really interesting how companies and the people who started them negotiate that natural evolution of life. It can't always be that person. Thirty years ago, Deschutes was one of the first, but that means that Gary's been working here for thirty years.

VV: Exactly. So it's been good to hear the stories of when John said that Gary said he couldn't buy this hop. Because his nose was in the books, he was in it. So he knew that we couldn't do that. And now while he is very aware of where we are financially, certainly a little more detached on the day to day numbers, 01:06:00it's a little easier for him to say, "Why don't we do this? Why don't we do that?" Why don't we do it all, basically, is kind of the feeling. And then we kind of have to tell him why, and that sometimes can be disheartening, because you can see disappointment in his face, which I equally share. So, I've been trying to think of our different outlets as almost their own micro-companies in a sense. Like, if you think of our barrel program, think of the resources that we have in terms of the lab and all that. But in terms of how many barrels we've produced, it's quite small. So to get my team and myself in the mindset of how a brewery of that size, a thousand barrel brewery, how would they put a cork and cage in? They wouldn't go to CapEx and put huge proposals in and try to put a 01:07:00one million dollar one in. They wouldn't. So, we're gonna have to think like them, and think of them as our competitors in that part of our business. Same with the pubs. But it's really easy for us to - it's all the same pocket - so it's easy for us to think like the large brewery. So I'm trying a lot harder, production wise, we need to think that way. Our other outlets had to get back to a lot more grassroots type thinking.

TEM: I imagine that can be complicated with the expansion too. There's the pub, there's Portland and then there will be - I don't even know which direction I'm pointing, I'm pointing in the Roanoke direction! [laughs]

VV: Exactly. And the challenge there is to get to Roanoke. We need scaled 01:08:00products. So our smaller niche, in some way more interesting to me creatively, will not get us there. However, they will be a part of the halo effect of Deschutes being a very multifaceted important craft brewery that is able to do a hundred thousand barrel brand across 28 states and it can also do a 25 barrel, all locally sourced, barrel-aged beer. And equally of quality and craftsmanship, right? But we have to grow to do that. And it also goes back to we have to grow in order to provide the type of employment that we want to provide. And so, I wonder how many of our employees realize that it's not like growth for growth's 01:09:00sake, that we just want to be big because being big puts a crown on our head and we want to be in the top ten list and that sort of thing. We cannot provide the benefits we want to provide to more people if we really value what we're bringing as an employer and we want to do more good, then we have to grow. Yeah.

TEM: I imagine that's a top tension.

VV: Definitely.

TEM: Especially if we think about industry news. I feel like in the five years that I've been documenting, it's always in the news. This kind of tension of how big is too big, who is big, who is not big. Who is surviving, who is growing. You know, it feels like this constant...

VV: Right.

AD: It seems to kind of go in shifts too, that you hit a point where you kind of have to grow or you stop.

VV: Exactly.

AD: And then you're fine and then it's kind of slow, then all of a sudden, now 01:10:00there's a big decision to make. And you need to get everyone on board to accept that we do need to grow.

VV: Exactly. And kind of get behind your why.

TEM: Do you see ingredients and the local environment in Roanoke influencing what happens here?

VV: Mmm. I think it's just - I don't know. Where I was going is, I think it will definitely influence how we brew beer there. And I'm very excited about that, because it's just a new place to explore. And just going back to that naturalist thing, I feel more at home in getting to know a place and not just the people but what grows there, what's the economy like, what are farmers growing? And to be able to get to know another place on another side of the country is really 01:11:00exciting. So I'm sure it's going to inform the beers that we make there for them, for that community. I mean, I think that's the part of our community-focused brewery is we want to make beers that not only benefit the community financially but also just add to the pleasure of being a part of a community.

AD: That fit.

VV: That fit within there. Yeah! So that those folks feel the sense of place even in the beers they drink.

TEM: Pawpaws!

VV: Pawpaws! Yeah! What an interesting story.

TEM: [Laughs.]

AD: Do you have any more questions?

TEM: Boy, I always have lots of questions. One question that you didn't ask that was on our list was your dream brew. What's something that you really want to experiment with? I mean, now I've brought up pawpaws.

VV: I mean, pawpaws would be so cool. Just the idea of having something so tropical and in our country. That's been on my list because that brings that story of history that people might not know about. But you caught me off guard.

TEM: [Laughs.]

VV: I mean our sour beers have been an opportunity to do a lot of weird cool things. So what I've been really excited about is the hop breeding, and the hop programs have been very geared to making aroma hops, and brewers have tended to put them in IPAs, pale ales. And so in tasting some of these beers, you're tasting hops, like, "Oh, this is really unique, it has coconut it has wood-y." 01:13:00Might not put that in an IPA, let's put that in dark beer, let's get hops as a much bigger flavor component in dark beers. So that's been kind of a fire that's been lit under me. And hopefully the consumer sees that there could be more than just a black IPA in that type of beer. We have a whole spectrum of dark beer styles and strengths and all that to play with, and really as a brewery we've been very focused on just using tekenings, EKGs, like very traditional hops in our darker beers, that are not Cascadian Dark Ales or black IPAs. So I'm really curious to bring 'em into other styles.

TEM: How do you feel like the consumers have changed? Do you feel like people 01:14:00are still willing and wanting to try something different, new, different, new?

VV: Yeah, yeah. I see that I'm very culinary inspired and going out to local bakeries and seeing a madeleine that's like an earl grey dipped in a frosting of lavender or something like that. So I think if the same consumer is willing to try that cookie, it's the same consumer that's going to try your dill pickle sour or whatever. Especially if it's an intriguing enough story, like our dill pickle sour that Robin made is all Sorachi hops. So, all the dill is coming from the hop, and so it's such a cool story. Like, I am smelling dill. There is dill in here.

TEM: [Laughs.]

VV: It's not. It's Sorachis. And the sour, briny, saltiness coming from that Lactobacillus fermentation and stuff. And I seem that same interest, that same 01:15:00type of person. The ice cream shops that are coming out with green tea and matcha and all these interesting flavors that you just wouldn't consider in an ice cream or whatever - that willingness allows us to be as weird as we want in our pub brews and our small batch brews. Some of our large beers - we're considering an earl grey IPA for a rotating series. And sometimes I get, like, internally, "Really, earl grey?"

TEM: [Laughs.]

VV: Do people think that's Grandma's tea? Why would anyone young want this? And it's like, well, I don't know. I see it in food, and what we've made I think is delicious and so I think people will reach for it. I hope.

AD: They both sound weird but...delicious.

VV: Intriguing!

AD: Yeah! Maybe I'm willing to...

VV: You might be that adventurous...

AD: A dill sour! That sounds like something I need to try.

TEM: [Laughs.]

VV: Yeah, yeah. I think we value adventurous spirits.

TEM: What did you feel like we didn't cover last time or what do feel like you want about talk today?

VV: I don't know, we covered so much. I think the industry is changing but I think we all are just aware of it. I just saw a presentation this morning where they gave a number. There are 20,000 items of craft beer out there. When it comes to the total US and all the outlets that are available in craft beer, 20,000 items. So our challenges is naming beers, and being first to market, if 01:17:00that's what we want to be. There's certainly that tug there, as a leader in this company and a desire for us to remain a leader. But I also don't want that tug to pull us in a direction where we don't take the care that we have always taken. So I'm just cognizant of taking where we've been. In the past we were allowed to be slow and meticulous and overthink things. I think we'll continue to do that, but luckily now we have the pilot brewery. We could still do twenty batches there and overthink it, and it's not going to take us two years. It's just going to be putting effort into different places. It's gonna be an 01:18:00interesting couple years.

TEM: Yeah, so crystal ball, if you have the eight-ball crystal ball. What do you think is coming? And I don't just think for the company. Obviously there's lots of the changes that are happening right now. But as an industry what do you see as far as trends or concerns or excitements?

VV: It just feels like such a rat race, honestly. Not just in beer but if you look at all other categories, like beverages. You go to just like where you'd get an iced tea in the past, and it's just so cluttered. And with so many things, it can't just be because now I'm an adult consumer and so much more aware of it. I do feel like it's just a rat race of innovation, and that worries me. Everybody needs to be innovative, and if everyone thinks they are, then no 01:19:00one really is.

TEM: [Laughs.]

VV: Because we're all in the same rat race together. So I don't know. I guess I hope I can be a part of ensuring that we stay true to ourselves and that we don't turn away from the things that are harder for us to do. Like, being focused on dark beer. It's very seasonal at this point because people are in the mood only in winter and the cold part of spring.

TE: [Laughs.] So most of it.

VV: Yeah, exactly! And other shiny lights might seem like an easy win. So I hope that we can balance doing some easy wins. I mean, that's the fun part of being a craft brewer, is what's an exciting puzzle to solve as a brewing team, and 01:20:00equally what's exciting to the consumer. When you get those to kind of match, that magic happens. Hazy IPAs are a great example of that. Our brewers got excited to solve that puzzle, and then when you make the beer and the tank is empty in two weeks, it's very motivating. So how do we play, and then how do we do the hard work and stay true to who we are? Yeah.

TEM: Do you think that you will and can do more regular collaborations? Five at one time is probably a lot.

VV: I mean, in hindsight they were so personal, and I think that's what brought that value. Even before this, I have been feeling like the value of brewer to brewer collaborations...I wonder how much is just marketing the story. And I see more interest in brewer to ex-collaborations, whether it's food, food pairing, 01:21:00whether it's experiences. And I think you might get more insight on learning other industries, on how they do their work. It just might be a richer experience, as opposed to two very busy breweries said yes to something and then we have to fit it in. And it can sometimes be sloppy, honestly, because it feels kind of rushed and not as focused. But our thirtieth felt very personal and focused, and I think that's why good beers came out of it.

TEM: Yeah, I was reminded of beers made by walking in Pitchering Oregon, which we were both at.

VV: Yes, so those collaborations really inspire me. And so I think I come back 01:22:00to work a lot more refreshed. It's almost like the introvert/extrovert thing, right? [Laughs.] I come back refreshed from those and I feel a little drained on the brewer to brewer collaborations. Sometimes.

TEM: Yeah! Because I was looking at your board I was reminded of that event, and I think that was such an interesting way to engage brewing with art.

VV: And people who are interested in art might not have been interested in beer. The hook is the story and the brewer's interest to go back and learn about these people and bring their story to life. And then you get them to try your beer.

TEM: And I think it was cool because it brought so many different brewers from around the state. I imagine that as a brewer or a brewing company, that would be 01:23:00a difficult thing to organize. To have that kind of geographic representation.

VV: Right. Oh, absolutely.

TEM: That was at the same time really focused on a thing. You could make whatever you wanted or be inspired however you wanted. But I think that model, the Eric Steen things that he's involved in.

VV: Yeah, so good.

TEM: Yeah, it's a very interesting way to engage with, like you said, a different type of consumer too.

VV: Right, right. And inspiration comes from not only, like, the process of going to see this painting, learning about this person, and I'm going to infuse that into how I think about this beer. But then you get to see whatever everybody else did, and what their thought process was. In that way, that brewer to brewer thought process was super magical, but we didn't have to put together 01:24:00something together, a recipe together. It was like, "What was your thought process?" and that sort of thing.

TEM: Well and as an observer, what was so interesting was that some people really did the research. They were object and creator focused. And other people were..."this reminded me of."

VV: Exactly!

TEM: Or this is just the thing that we do. I was thinking about the Hop Springs.

VV: Right. [Laughs.] So great. It allows for more storytelling.

TEM: I feel like now we're having a conversation that people on the video are like, "What are they talking about?" Pitchering Oregon, October 2017. I don't know how many brewers. Twenty, eighteen? Then everybody talked about in the center...

VV: In the Portland Art Museum.

TEM: And there were food pairings too.

AD: I remember you talking about that when that happened.

TEM: Yeah, it was very cool.

AD: Anything else you'd like to add?

VV: No, I think that covers it.

TEM: Excellent.