Christine Jump Oral History Interview, December 8, 2018

TIAH EDMUNSON-MORTON: Alright, go ahead and introduce yourself.

CHRISTINE JUMP: I am Christine Jump. I'm a transplant from Kentucky living in 00:01:00Oregon these past some 30 years where I discovered craft beer, I should say I was introduced to craft beer. And now I'm director of Barley's Angels, which I took over in 2012. And it is an organization, it's a network of chapters around the world, we're in, oh gosh, eight or nine countries now, and our focus is providing a comfortable, safe environment for women to explore craft beer and learn about craft beer, and it's dual-fold. We always partner with retailers of craft beer, makers and retailers of craft beer because we also want to help support that industry. And I found that kind of a side effect of those two combined things has also led to servers and bartenders in the industry recognizing that women are viable and welcome and knowledgeable, and have sophisticated palates to try any beer that they may pour. And I can explain where that sentiment comes from later on if you want.

TEM: So did you join Pink Boots first?

CJ: Yes.

TEM: And what year did you join Pink Boots?

CJ: As soon as Teri - Teri Fahrendorf, who founded Pink Boots Society is a good friend of mine - as soon as she made that an official thing, I was in.

TEM: So you were working at Rogue then, is that right?

CJ: Yes, I was working at Rogue Ales then, and I was also a podcaster producing interviewers with brewers and covering craft beer events.

TEM: How did you get into it?

CJ: I did not like beer most of my life, at all. And every male that I would say "I don't like beer" to would say to me, "Oh, you just haven't tried the right beer!" and they'd give me some bitter hoppy liquid that I can't stand - I don't like bitter - so I never liked beer, I thought. And then I met a man who became my significant other, and made the mistake of saying to him "I don't like beer," and it turned out he was the brew master at the place I was at. So he took it upon himself to introduce me to all of these beers, and I saw up on the menu board that it said barley wine. And after suffering through the bitter beers, I said, "Hey, I like wine, can I try the barley wine?" And both he and the bartender laughed out loud at me.

TEM: [Laughs]

CJ: "Give her some barley wine [they said], ha ha ha ha!" And it was like an explosion of flavor in my mouth. That barley wine went on to win a gold medal some years later. I did not know that beer was anything but bitter and light 00:03:00yellow and watery textured...I had no idea until that beer. And he was one of the best teachers, I think without ever knowing it perhaps. He latched onto recognizing what I liked about that beer and then brought me more beers that had similar characteristics. And the whole world of beer opened up.

TEM: So I read something, was that at the Wild Duck in Eugene?

CJ: It was. Glen Falconer was my significant other, Glen Hay Falconer.

TEM: When I read that I thought it had to be him because I didn't think there were that many brew masters at the Wild Duck!

CJ: No, it was him, it was him. And, you know, I didn't get into the beer industry right away. It was some years later that I began. It was 2015 that I started working for Rogue and I opened their Eugene pub and then transferred up 00:04:00to Portland and was one of the management team for their Pearl Street Pub, and everything else is just history after that. So, still leading up to how I got involved with Barley's Angels - I guess the podcasting came first - Rogue sent me to the great American beer festival a few times, actually. But the first time they sent me there, it was all this incredible beer, this incredible community. Glen introduced me to the community of craft brewers. A more peaceful, loving, caring community I had yet to be a part of until I was 40 years old. I was 40 years old when I tasted barley wine for the first time. Being at the brew festival for the first time and just immersed in the culture and so many amazing 00:05:00beers. I thought, you know, I had missed out on all of this wonderful flavor, and the way it pairs with food, and just this culture, for most of my life. How can I share this with other women so they don't suffer the same loss, literally, that I did? And it just came to mind, well maybe I'll do a podcast. I knew nothing about recording or editing or pod...zip, zero, nada!

TEM: [Laughs.]

CJ: I had a Treo palm cell pho...it wasn't even a phone, a Treo palm organizer that had a recorder on it. And Jamie Floyd who is with Ninkasi, started Ninkasi, he and I walked to the festival from the hotel room and I turned on that recorder and I said, "Hey, I've decided to make a podcast, what do you think?" And he was my very first interview. So that's how I got started doing something to share beer with the industry. But my real impetus and push is that I don't 00:06:00want anyone who might enjoy this beverage and all of the cultural implication and applications that it has, [to miss out] like I did. Just, not all beer is bitter, man.

TEM: So, growing up in Kentucky, was alcohol something that was in your culture? So, I think about Kentucky and bourbon.

CJ: Yeah.

TEM: So was there beer consumed in your house?

CJ: I think beer was more prevalent than hard liquor was. My mom used to tell stories about being sent to the corner market with a bucket to buy beer for her parents and to bring home. They'd let her have a sip of it at dinner. She later disclosed that she would sip the foam on the way home too. And those are growlers, did you know that? They were buckets that had a tray that fit in them, 00:07:00where you could put your sandwiches and your lunch, and a lid. As the CO2 from the beer would be released up against the metal of the bucket and lid, it would make these growling noises.

TEM: Ooh!

CJ: They were 64-ounce containers, and that's where the term "growler" comes from for a vessel that holds beer of that size. Anyway, mom was carrying the growlers home.

TEM: [Laughs.] For some reason I had this image of her with the bucket, like, sloshing.

CJ: Well, you know it probably was if she was sippin' the foam on the way home!

TEM: [Laughs.]

CJ: And the glasses were small! You can't see this, but - what is that, about five inches? - the glasses that I remember my family drinking beer from were about five inches tall and maybe no more than two and a half inches wide. They were little tiny glasses, and I wish - and I've taken a poll, actually, when we 00:08:00were in seven countries, maybe six countries of the chapters - and there's quite the consensus that women would like smaller servings. But now you've got the flights so it's doable there. Yeah, because I want to taste a number of what you're serving at your establishment.

TEM: It's a commitment to have a pint of all of the things, or even a half pint.

CJ: It is, it is.

TEM: That's more than a taste.

CJ: When I started this, I could have, you know, several half pints, but I find the older that I get - and I am 59, so it's only been 19 years - I just can't taste as many beers as I used to and be in any condition that I'm comfortable with.

TEM: Yeah.

CJ: So yeah, I would really love the short [glasses]. Some places will even let me pay for a full pint, and give me the short glass, and I'll do that sometimes, because at festivals I'm just beggin' sips off everyone I know because I just 00:09:00wanna taste everything!

TEM: Yeah, yeah. So did you, did you have that kind of midwestern bigger brewery influence? I don't know how close to Ohio you were.

CJ: I was literally the other side of the river from Cincinnati. I was born and raised in Covington Kentucky.

TEM: I know exactly where that is.

CJ: Yeah, that's where I was raised. But I do want to share this one. My great grandfather: as a child it felt like we drove for hours to his place, and I can't [remember but] I believe he was in Independence, which isn't hours away from Covington. Wherever it was, we would drive for hours, and I remember my father would drive through a field, he'd get out, open this gate, drive through, shut the gate, and we'd drive through fields some more. He did that a number of times until we went up this very steep drive to my great grandparents' house. 00:10:00And they had very little electricity. They had one lightbulb in the house. They had a hand pump for water at the kitchen sink inside the little house, and they had a refrigerator on the front porch with a tap on the front that poured beer. So yes, beer is a part of my family culture on both sides of the family.

TEM: [Laughs.] Oh my gosh!

CJ: I will never forget. They had one lightbulb, no running water in the kitchen, but by God, they had draft beer on the front porch! They were tobacco farmers.

TEM: So, did anybody home-brew? Did they home-brew?

CJ: I don't know. I was so young. That's my memory of my great grandparent's place.

TEM: Yeah. So how did you end up in Oregon?

CJ: My stepfather - I loved him as much as I loved my father, he was good to me 00:11:00and helped raise me - went into business with a gentleman up here in Oregon, and packed us up and moved us up here. He came to Kentucky and packed up my mom and older sister and I and moved us out to southern California, and then from there we did bounce back and forth for a little bit, back to Kentucky. And then ultimately he moved up to Oregon in 1976. So I technically graduated from high school in Oregon. Can be unionized. Went there about six months before I graduated.

TEM: So close to Portland.

CJ: Yeah! Didn't feel like it though. Wilsonville only had the one main street on the north side of the Willamette river, there was one grocery store and a couple of bars and pubs and taverns. And in California they called 'em bars, but 00:12:00up here they called 'em taverns, so I could never figure how to call. Because my stepdad and mom would sometimes go out and leave me babysittin' and I'd have to call them to see if we could order pizza or somethin'.

TEM: [Laughs.]

CJ: But I couldn't figure out how to call, 'cause I didn't know it was called a tavern! It was just brutal.

TEM: [Laughs.] Right. That's like soda and pop.

CJ: Exactly.

TEM: The region will get you stuck.

CJ: And you used to get a live person on 411, so I would just try desperately to describe any kind of names I could think of. And there might have been three of them in Wilsonville, and that was it, that was all it had. Used to ride my horse across the train trestle, because we were on the south side of the Willamette. I shudder at how dangerous that was and how lucky I am to be alive. [Laughs.]

TEM: Yeah. So, did you settle in Portland then?

CJ: No. I went back to California to go to the college. It was free if you were a resident then. So I was a resident. And then I met my older children's father and then that fell apart and I ended up giving birth to my middle daughter at the hippie farm in Tennessee. And after that experience being there, I realized that southern California really wasn't the environment I wanted to raise my children in, so hooked up with some friends I had that lived in the Eugene area and moved up here. I lived in Eugene for like, 13 years, before I moved up to Portland with Rogue. And I just moved back to Eugene, December 2nd, 2015, 'cause my fifth grandson was being born. The two-hour drive is too far away. Just too 00:14:00far away. Now it's awesome. I'm five minutes away.

TEM: [Laughs.]

CJ: I got to see them all born. Well, no I didn't. I got to see three of 'em be born. [Short pause.] It's worth it.

TEM: What are some of the things that you remember about Eugene beer as you were discovering it? What are some of your memories of places that you would go?

CJ: Well, it was Glen Falconer that, you know, introduced me to both the brews in the community - Jamie Floyd was a keg-washer when I met him -

TEM: Was that at Steelback?

CJ: Yes, yes. He worked for Teri Fahrendorf, which is how I met Teri.

TEM: Oh! That is so funny!

CJ: There's the connection.

TEM: Oh right, because she was there.

CJ: Teri Fahrendorf gave Glen Falconer his very first professional brewing opportunity. He had been a home brewer and she was hiring, and God bless her. 00:15:00I'm gettin' chills!

TEM: [Laughs.] I had totally forgotten. I so closely associate her with Portland now, it just slipped out my ear.

CJ: Yeah. I don't know the circumstances because he was already a brewer when I met him, and then he went to brew at Rogue, and then Bob Jensen was opening the Wild Duck and called Rogue's master brewer John Maier and said, "Hey, I'm lookin' for a brewer, do you know anyone?" and he said, "Yeah, he's right here," and handed Glen the phone. And that's how that happened. But the thing that I remember and am to this day most struck by - the craft beer emergency in the Eugene area and on the whole western coast of Oregon, because a lot of those guys, Jimmie Mills at Caldera Brewing and, and anyway - was the open sharing and 00:16:00collaboration of information and recipes and technique that they applied. At one point, Glen Falconer took me to Boston, and we visited with...oh shit, I'm not going to draw a blank, am I? [Short pause.] I sure am!

TEM: [Laughs.]

CJ: We visited with the brew master at Cambridge Brewing Company. And one of the things that he had talked about when we were riding around in the car going to different places was that there was no open collaboration or sharing. No one wanted to say which hops they used, no one wanted to say how long they boiled or when they pitched the yeast or when they pitched the hops, or, or, any of it! They were very tight-lipped and close-lipped and, and... And, as a result, we 00:17:00saw the craft brewing industry on the west coast explode. And it took years for craft breweries on the east coast. I kept watching Kentucky 'cause I had some desires to move back home, and a brewery would open, and close. And open and close. And they'd open these big, elaborate beautiful places, and they'd close. While in Oregon it was just explosive growth. And I think it was that open, sharing collaborative...what the computer folks would call open source. I mean, sometimes a brewer would even call Glen and say, you know, "How long did you boil and what did you do?" And he'd say, "Hey, I'll come on over, and I'll help!" And it was just that kind of approach to what they were doing.

TEM: I've often wondered too if - and I don't know enough about non-west coast beer culture and the kind of crossover with home brewing - but I feel like there 00:18:00is this kind of basis in Oregon in home brew clubs and that kind of sharing ethos that comes from that club mentality, almost.

CJ: Oh sure, you're probably right about that. In fact, until fairly recently, like maybe 10 or 15 years, most of the master brewers were home brewers first. Glen was a home brewer first, John Maier was a home brewer first. He won home brewer of the year a year or so before he started up with Rogue. But now you're seeing more, you know, professionally trained brewers succeeding, being hired. It's just a more competitive market right now. But yeah, home brewing was where it started here on the west coast, absolutely.

TEM: Did you...?

CJ: It was illegal for a long time.

TEM: [Laughs.]

CJ: I know, well, he's passed away, but I knew a home brewer who was brewing 00:19:00when it was illegal. And even after it became legal, he was very conservative about sharing with anyone that the beer that he was sharing with you was something that he made.

TEM: Yeah. I remember being astonished that Fred Eckhardt could write books about home brewing before it was legal.

CJ: I've wondered about that! How did that happen?

TEM: How could you do that? Isn't there like a book police?

CJ: I guess not?

TEM: Oh my gosh.

CJ: He never looked his age.

TEM: I interviewed him maybe a year and half before he passed away, and I remember we were walking to Seravezza where we were going to do the interview, and I think because I assumed he never aged, I just walked at my same clip. And 00:20:00he was like, "You need to slow down." [Laughs.] "But, but, you don't look like you are your age."

CJ: No, he never aged. He never aged. I was at a little birthday gathering for him, he and his like, three friends, came into the Rogue on Pearl, where I had just gotten off, and so he's like, "Oh, join us, my birthday is just great." I was floored to learn that it was his eighty-something birthday. What? I thought he was in his sixties.

TEM: We have his collection of stuff, he just seems like he was a character who was kind of everywhere. It seems like his engagement with life really kept him young.

CJ: Oh, what stories he had! I saw your collection and you had the interview. And I know that it is something that I need to just sit down and spend a few hours diggin' in, because he shared some of his stories with me. Soldier, and 00:21:00beer in Europe, and his father brewing in the bathtub.

TEM: [Laughs.] I love the stories of people's parents when it was illegal too. So the question that I want to ask has to do with what you were offered and what drew you to be a part of an organization that advocated for kind of a higher level of acceptance of women drinking what they wanted to drink. So I guess the roundabout question that I want to ask is what were your experiences in Eugene in those early years of discovering? Did you feel like it was different in 00:22:00Eugene? Was it different because of who your partner was?

CJ: Absolutely. Absolutely. And when he was with me and when he was not.

TEM: Mm-Hm.

CJ: When he was with me, all the bartenders and the brewers, they all knew him, so that was fun because they would just have us try stuff that they knew they wanted to share. So that was exciting. And when he wasn't with me, I would actually be told that I didn't want that beer.

TEM: Hm!

CJ: And I'd order, I don't know, a quadruple Belgian or something. I found out very early on I like Belgians, I like sweet beers, I like especially high alcohol beers. I think that even imperial IPAs, the bitterness is underwhelmed because of the alcohol. I don't know if it's the alcohol that comes forward or what, but I don't find the bitterness in a double IPA. I love them! So, they 00:23:00would say to me, "Oh, you don't want that beer! Here, why don't you have this Hefeweizen. And I like Hefeweizens too, but that was annoying."

TEM: Mm-Hm.

CJ: So when Barley's Angels first said, when Teri first said, we're gonna do this thing called Barley's Angels, and you've gotta be a member of Pink Boots and start a chapter, I was like "Oh, yes!" A safe place where it's women only! You know, I don't have to sit in a place and listen to men - and I knew beer by then - but I didn't have to sit in a place and listen to a man sitting at the table next to me or at the bar next to me and sayin', "Oh honey, you're not gonna like that." Maybe I won't, but I'd like to feel comfortable asking for it without feeling like folks around me are gonna try to tell me no, which is not comfortable.

TEM: Mm-Hm.

CJ: So it was like, yes, this is great. All women? I mean, if we're all getting together and learning about it together and having someone in the industry 00:24:00professionally presenting it to us, win-win! We'll all learn more about it, I'll learn more about it. I have a million questions when I'm interested in something. My entire life, even before beer, I am an information junkie. I have a huge library at home, all reference books. So I sunk hook-line-and-sinker into beer. And watching Glen make it: I actually brewed with him one time. Takes all day. But I brewed once. I've never home brewed, but I've brewed on a couple of big systems. I've brewed at Ninkasi, or, you know, collaborated while brewers brewed at Ninkasi. Anyway, I think I've gotten off track. But I have a million questions, and I've always had a million questions. So I brought Megan Flynn, who was publishing a nice, slick Northwest beer magazine, I think at one point she called it NW Beer, but it had two names. So she was the publisher. Teri 00:25:00Fahrendorf also presented. This is the very first ever Barley's Angels event. We had it at, you guessed it, at the Flanders Pub, the Pearl Pub at Rogue. I kind of had an in there, I was managing there. No I guess not, by then I was Jack Joyce's personal assistant, and he's an icon in the industry and ran Rogue until he passed away. Who else spoke? I think that was it. Just Teri and Megan Flynn. Lisa Morrison may have come. I don't know, I have a group shot. I'll have to dig up the group.

TEM: Oh! I think I may have that, actually.

CJ: We're all in kind of a room they never really used. Yeah, that was amazing. And we had a little bite of food. The whole premise is to be able to explore and 00:26:00learn about beer from people who know about beer who are doing the presenting, and that is the premise. Every Barley's Angels event has food included. It's not a drunk fest. Every Barley's Angels event has someone who knows what they're doing presenting, be it a Cicerone, or a beer chef, who maybe made or prepared the food, or a beer journalist, or a brewer or a pub owner. Or someone who can share, impart some of their knowledge. So learning about beer, which I missed out on for 40 years. But it was so in alignment with what I did. So I loved it! And I immediately joined and did the first event. There were a bunch of us that started chapters right away - the chapter in Toronto, the chapter in London, the chapter in Australia, might have been two in Australia, and Argentina like you said.

TEM: So, how did people hear about Barley's Angels? Was it kind of a direct 00:27:00connection with Pink Boots?

CJ: Because it was a part of Pink Boots. So, the word went out to the membership of the Pink Boots that we were thinking about doing this consumer side, and if we did do this consumer side, and you know, the Pink Boots membership decided how it was going to work. Let's make it so a Pink Boots member has to be the person to found the chapter, and all of these rules. It's not a drunk-fest, it has to serve food, it has to be at a place that's licensed to serve alcohol, because that's the piece were we want to support the industry. So they're still there, and we get more beer because they're still there. And the side effect, like I said, the bartenders that might dissuade you from trying a stout [beer], gets to see...and...and...that was just an observation. Like, wow, look at this. The Chicago chapter was started by a woman bartender because it's more 00:28:00pronounced in other parts of the country, this, this, dissuading of women from trying different beers, or even any craft beers. West Coast we don't really see it, Portland you don't really see it. You don't see it at all anymore in Eugene, everybody knows everybody likes beer and we all have this great beer, so everybody try it. But not so at the time or even still in other parts of the country. So [in] Chicago, she got tired of bartenders and servers tellin' her she didn't want the beer she was tryin' to order, so she started a Barley's Angels chapter in Chicago. Man, that chapter is gangbusters huge. She was on the news at the very first event, she thought she would do four events a year, and at the very first event I suggested at the end of the event ask the ladies for suggestions of what to do next and when they'd like to do it next. Immediately 00:29:00it switched from quarterly to monthly, they've been on the news several times, but she was the one that came back and said, "My coworkers and other servers at this place are blown away that women like these beers." And that's when we said, "Oh, wow. We're also training people's staff."

TEM: Yeah! I haven't thought about that! That education component isn't just educating the women who are interested in trying different beers but it's educating the people who are present serving it. Yeah. What's one of your favorite event memories? You don't even have to pick one, you can have a second.

CJ: Have as many as I want?

TEM: [Laughs.] Well, what are some of them that really stand out?

CJ: One that jumps out at me - I'm getting chills now - is Lisa Morrison presenting (We didn't have a name for it, I came up with the name for it. Lisa, sorry I'm taking credit for this.) [She presented] the alchemy of beer and 00:30:00glassware. I mentioned to you, I think. Because she did this pairing with one kind of beer and several different glasswares and she had these gum drops. Words do not describe how differently a beer tastes just putting it in a different glass. She had us put the gum drop in our mouth and breath over it and drink with it, just to, kind of, prime us for recognizing the differences. I really don't have words. Suffice it to say that on a scale of zero to a hundred, there's that much difference in what flavors and notes you're going to pick up out of a beer just by putting it in a different glass. So, when you are at a place that serves everything in a pint glass, it could be better.

TEM: [Laughs.]

CJ: That's all I'm gonna say. In Portland there's a place called Higgins - they serve every beer in the proper glass and you really owe it to yourself to find a place that does that and try it. Or buy some glassware at home and do a tasting. It's astonishing.

TEM: Mm-Hm.

CJ: And she did that at our first women and beer conference that Barley's Angels did.

TEM: Was that in 2013 or 2014?

CJ: Twelve, I think. Yeah, I kind of did it as a kickoff for my having taken over the organization.

TEM: So the second one, was that in 2014?

CJ: It was August 22, 2012.

TEM: Ok.

CJ: It was that event. I think I billed it as "Barley's Angels Farm-to-Bottle Feast."

TEM: Did you do that one at the Chateau Rogue?

CJ: Yeah, that was the one. Yeah, I had this in because I was working with Jack. 00:32:00There was no fee. At the time they had the Bed 'n' Beer. Julia Herz - and she's the craft beer director person at the Brews Association - she came in and did a tasting. And hers is like the number two on my list of amazing things at that event. And because she was involved, the Brews Association PR firm promoted it. So we had journalists coming and Rogue decided to put up the journalists. Complementary accommodations for the journalists at the Bed 'n' Beer at the hop farm. And the Coleman family, who gave permission for women who bought tickets and attended the event to camp out on property that's like, right next to the Bed N Bed 'n' Beer.

TEM: Ah!

CJ: It was an incredible experience and Teri Fahrendorf presented on beer travels, which is where Pink Boots was born. Her beer adventures across the 00:33:00country. We had Wall Street Journal there, we had San Francisco Chronicle there, we had other beer journalist names in the national rags and in the local rags. It was pretty great. I shouldn't say rags.

TEM: [Laughs.]

CJ: Publications.

TEM: News outlets.

CJ: News outlets. Anyhow, so the second most wow-tasting I had - and I have stolen this from Julia - but the Brews Association has how to do this on their website anyway. But she took a plate of something salty (I think we had maybe blue cheese), something creamy (that might have been a brie), something spicy (that was a salami), something savory (I don't remember), something sweet (we 00:34:00had some gourmet chocolates.) So for all of the flavor centers of the tongue, there was a little bite of food on the plate what would ignite that center. And then several different styles of beer. I know there was a Berliner Weisse, I know there was a barley wine, I know there was a stout. Uh...I'm not sure about the other two. I'm sure there was an IPA. But different styles of beer. She guided us through tasting [different beers with different foods.] Oh, there was a pickle too. Dill pickle. Let's taste the Berliner Weisse with the pickle. Let's taste the Berliner Weisse with the blue cheese. Let's taste it with the sweet. And take a bite of the food and put the beer in your mouth and taste it properly. There's a proper way which Teri Fahrendorf actually explains. Swish the foods together and breathe over it and all that. And that was incredible! 00:35:00The pickle and - was it the Berliner Weisse? - when you put those two in your mouth together, everything became sweet. No, it was the IPA and the pickle. Put the IPA and the pickle in your mouth together and everything became sweet. So I mean, what's that?

TEM: [Laughs.]

CJ: [Laughs.] And that right there, when I did that with Julia Herz I become hooked on pairings. Now I'm a foodie.

TEM: That was 2014?

CJ: Twelve.

TEM: Twelve. So I'm curious. This is not uncommon now, that we would have these tasting experiences.

CJ: Mm-Hm.

TEM: Where was the point where you saw that entering into the consumer culture? Where there would be this kind of interest in what - not necessarily glassware, 00:36:00because I think that's...that's....

CJ: That's a little more geeky.

TEM: Uh...well, I mean...maybe.

CJ: [Laughs.]

TEM: [Laughs.]

CJ: At the time, for sure!

TEM: But I'm curious whether there's a point where it became more mainstream to be talking about food pairings or these, kind of like, tasting dinners. There's this menu that Fred Eckhardt, probably in the '90s, did which was a wine dinner pairing. And he crossed out all of the wines and made suggestions for beers.

CJ: Ah!

TEM: And it was clear though at that time that he was, like, "You can do this. We have wine tasting dinners, we can have beer tasting dinners." So I'm curious if there was a point where you felt like it became just part of the culture to 00:37:00talk about how food you eat can be paired with the beer you drink and how these different flavors mix together.

CJ: Yeah, it was because the foodie scene had become a scene. And that's when there were all these, you know...foodie became a word. Right around maybe 2011 - I'm probably off on the dates, but that was when I became more aware of it -

TEM: Yeah.

CJ: And in the job that I work with the, you know, CEO of the brewing company, small brewing company, relatively speaking (seriously) I became more exposed to that. So it was just a natural progression, food, foodie events, foodie events with beer. I didn't see so many foodie events with wine, probably because I just wasn't involved in that movement or that community. But it was consciously a 00:38:00logical progression for me. We've already got the foodies on board. Everybody already drinks beer, generally speaking, so it just makes sense to bring in the foodies with the food and throw in the beer and introduce them to this side of the fence.

TEM: Mm-Hm.

CJ: And I've always given the chefs creative license when they do events. You get the most spectacular stuff when you give a chef creative license within a price frame.

TEM: Mm-Hm.

CJ: So, that speaks to the foodie side. You know, the marketing person inside of me said, "Ha, this is obvious how to do this." But the beer-lover side of me said, "Well, or course. This is all the same thing, and why isn't this already happening?" What better way to learn about food than, after my experience with Julia's tasting, than do it with a great beer. Another pairing that was most 00:39:00remarkable was an IPA and a spicy fudge, cayenne pepper fudge.

TEM: Mmmm. It sounds really...

CJ: I don't like cayenne pepper at all, I don't like IPAs, but those two together...wonderful experience.

TEM: Yeah, that's what I think is so wonderful about being led in tastings. It's that you might not decide that that would ever be...

CJ: Never! Who puts cayenne in fudge to begin with?

TEM: [Laughs.] Oh my gosh! How did you end up at Rogue?

CJ: Well, Glen and John Maier, even though Glen left Rogue, he and John were best friends.

TEM: Oooh! Ok.

CJ: He and Jack Joyce were even roommates at one point.

TEM: Glen and Jack?

CJ: Glen Falconer and Jack Joyce were roommates at one point.

TEM: Ah!

CJ: So that's...that's how I ended up with Rogue. I heard that they were gonna open a place in Eugene and [at] the place I was employed I had just been told they were restructuring the company, which would mean the second pay reduction.

TEM: Mm.

CJ: Small company. And I just thought, "I won't survive." So I called John, left a message on his voicemail, I might have e-mailed him. I said "Hey, I hear you guys might be opening a pub in Eugene. I'm thinkin' I might apply. Got any, you know, tidbits I should include, should I send a resume to Jack." I didn't hear from John. A couple months later I got a call from Russ whom I was only barely acquainted with through Glen and he was regional manager and they had pubs in Washington and Oregon and California. And he asked me to lunch, and the next 00:41:00thing you know I got the keys to the Eugene pub!

TEM: [Laughs.]

CJ: I also had lunch with Jack in Portland subsequently, and the next thing I know I got the keys and we're opening a pub in Eugene! Brewery downstairs, the old West Brothers pub and brewery location. West Brothers Barbecue, it used to be.

TEM: Was that on Eighth?

CJ: Yup.

TEM: Yeah, ok. Yeah, I grew up in Eugene, but it's funny that a lot of alcohol landmarks weren't there when I was of age, so I don't know them.

CJ: [Laughs.] Henry's, Lucky's, Sixth Street.

TEM: Yup, I worked Sixth Street.

CJ: Did you?

TEM: Yep, I was a hostess and a waitress there.

CJ: [Laughs.]

TEM: I was not great at this job.

CJ: You're a pretty great interviewer.

TEM: Oh, thank you! [Laughs.] Yes, because I'm not taking your order. Or remembering. I think I was always great at taking the order, but then, like, if I didn't write it down immediately...

CJ: I have a terrible memory for details. I was a server and a bartender, and I used to keep a cheat-sheet behind the bar. I would keep a coaster and put all my patron's names. I would say, "Hey, I'm Christine, what's your name?" Write their name down. "What brings you here?"

TEM: Yeah, I want everyone to wear nametags.

CJ: I'd introduce them to each other too, that way they entertained each other and I could get my job done. And they all thought I just had this great memory for names! I did not. I had a cheat-sheet.

TEM: Yeah, yeah. So how long did you work at the Rogue in Eugene?

CJ: Not long. Got it cleaned up and opened between West Bros Bbq and us, there was a little place that opened up and closed in fairly short order. And I don't think they told the staff, because they locked the doors and walked away and all that food was prepped on the line, and huge (I'm gesturing like two feet) huge 00:44:00prime ribs in the freezers, just left there. For six months. So it was quite the clean-up job, let me say. I have video of Steph literally laying inside of the reach-in behind the bar with a toothbrush cleaning the tracks for the door. I mean, it was just awful. So, got it cleaned up, and staffed and opened. So I think I started in September of, oh, '14, and by Saint Patty's transferred and moved up to Portland. They put me up in a fifteen-story studio that overlooked the west and I could see the Flanders Pub. It was beautiful. Beautiful.

TEM: What was that transition like to living in Portland at that time?

CJ: My only experience with Portland had been getting lost every single time I'd ever been in that city, and so I thought that I hated the city. But when I moved up there, first of all it was the west side, and it was the Pearl.

TEM: Was the Pearl the Pearl then?

CJ: It had just become the Pearl. It really was. There were walks and, yeah, it was nice already. So I immediately set out to find a place of my own to live, and walked throughout northwest and fell in love with it. So I loved it. And then I decided I didn't like Eugene anymore. I don't know what made me say that. Maybe it was because it was better for my head and heart to decide that after thirteen years in Eugene, suddenly in a new city, than to pine for my home and 00:46:00my friends. But whatever. Teri was up there. I had Teri Fahrendorf.

TEM: What was it like to work for Rogue?

CJ: Pretty incredible, actually. And that pub in particular, plus I was a podcaster. So I had people who were subscribers and listeners to my podcasts show up in the pub from, you know, Kentucky and Florida and Boston and Hawaii. So that was fun. And just people from all over Europe would come, and that was a destination. It was great fun meeting people and it was a time period too when people didn't know a lot about craft beers, so they would come in [and ask], "What should I drink?" Rogue operated differently than most restaurants and pubs, most restaurants anyway, and bars. The point of the pubs, Jack had 00:47:00explained to me once, was marketing. Marketing the Rogue products so that those patrons go home and ask for Rogue beer from wholesalers. At the time, wholesale was the biggest market for Rogue. So the pubs were marketing places. So they wanted us to engage and have conversations with the customers, so it was so much fun when people would say, "What kind of beer do you drink at home? What kind of beer do you like? What kind of flavors do you like?" And I especially enjoyed doing that with women, because they'd come and go, "Well, I don't like beer." And I'd say, "Well, you know what, I didn't either."

TEM: [Laughs.]

CJ: And off to the races we'd go. And Rogue has always made such a range of beers at any given time, or at least all the time I've been with them, that there was something for everyone.

TEM: [Laughs.]

CJ: Yeah, it was great fun. And they were amazingly generous. I don't think they have a reputation for being high-paying, but a more generous company I don't 00:48:00think you could find. You know, a coworker got married, they sent them to Hawaii on their honeymoon. They sent me to the Great American Beer Festival, not once or twice, but like, three times. Come on? Who does that? I can't think of more things that they did. Well I can, but not appropriate to this conversation. They were just a very very generous company. And did profit sharing when they had profits to share, and I was happily a part of the company when all of that happened. I believe they still do that. I haven't been gone that long.

TEM: And we were talking off the recorder about the growth in Barley's Angels, this kind of exponential growth. And I do want to get back to that, but I'm curious about what it was like to work for Rogue during a time of exponential 00:49:00growth. You started in 2004, you left in 2016, so you were there during this.

CJ: I started in...yeah, it was 2004. A minute ago I said I left at 2015, left Eugene at 2015. That's totally wrong. Right, it was September, 2004 I started with them and we opened the pub in Eugene. And I left around March of 2005. Right, and that's how long I was up in Portland. So I'm sorry, what was the question?

TEM: I'm curious what it was like to be at a large company as far as brewing in Oregon goes, during a time when there's really this dynamic period for growth and attention pointed at beer. And attention pointed at Portland and beer.

CJ: And Rogue!

TEM: And Rogue and beer.

CJ: While I was there, I think my first year there, the local newspaper named Rogue Ales as Portland's brewery. And the brewery wasn't in Portland! Brewery's never been in Portland! Brewery's in Newport! But that year Rogue got named. And that's the other thing about Rogue - and I don't know if I'm qualified to be talking about Rogue on the interview - but I did learn how to do things differently while I was at Rogue. And even before I became Jack Joyce's personal assistant. And that came about because I broke my back, and I couldn't tend bar and drag around chairs and mops, or anything anymore. And so it became exponential when I started working side by side with him every day. And those years are...the most important in my life, I think. He was my mentor. One of 00:51:00things they did differently is instead of spending money on advertising in adds, they spent it on their community. You know, where any other company I would have been with, brewery or otherwise, would have spent, you know, 12,000 dollars this year on a thousand dollar full-page add, they would spend 12,000 dollars on, you know, cleaning up the street, or donating it to the aquarium in Newport, or hosting the group at the Pearl that cleans up the Pearl every year. 30 or 40 or 50 people go out with brooms and mops and we'd host them and have them come into our pub afterward, and just feed them all, and give them all drinks. So they, 00:52:00Rogue, put their advertising money back into the community in those ways. And that's what made them Portland's brewery in that year. And that's the kind of stuff that I learned. Who cares if a magazine got money for a picture of your product in the pages? But me, the person that lives in the loft down the street, I'm comin' to have a beer because I know that you gave me free food and drink and supported me when I went out in the cold and swept up cigarette buts after the first Saturday art walk, or something.

TEM: Yeah. What did you learn from Jack Joyce?

CJ: So much. So so much. I think in a nutshell...[long pause]...he used to say...[long pause]...this is gonna be X-rated.

TEM: [Laughs.] The next thing I thought you were gonna say was not that. Sorry.

CJ: No, he used to say, "Stop fiddle-fucking around, and do something." So I say that to myself all the time. When I start thinking maybe I want to do this, maybe I want to have a women and beer conference. But how am I going to invite people, and how am I going to sell tickets, and how am I going to decide how much food to prepare? And he'd say, "Don't fiddle-fuck around. Do something."

TEM: Mm-Hm.

CJ: Ok, I'm gonna invite Julia Herz to come speak at this event. And she said yes, it was like, "Oh shit. Now I gotta do an event! Because she said yes." Just go. Don't stop. And if doesn't work it doesn't work, try something different. So much. He really put me on the spot. But think that in a nutshell what I learned from Jack is no matter what keep going. And not to do things the way everybody 00:54:00else is doing it. If everybody else is doin' it, I don't want to do it. I want to do it different. But now we're all doing tastings. [Laughs.] And that's ok too. They were so supportive. Jack was so supportive. Jack bought something like ten tickets to one event once. And he said give them to the staff so that they go. Everybody should go to your event. Very nice. And think that was the international women's day tasting. He used to say to me, "You've no idea what you've got here." [Laughs.] I had just decided to make it my business, and I met with a consultant - that was later - I decided to make it a business, to take it to the next level.

TEM: We're talking about Barley's Angels?

CJ: Barley's Angels - decided to make it a business, to take it to the next level. Because it generates a modest amount of money that mostly pays for the web hosting and stuff like that. And was putting together a plan on paper and was going to consult with Jack about it, because he was always there for me. Because I consulted with him on lots of things over the years. We worked together. And he passed away. I missed out on that. And I made a vow to just keep going and doing all the things that he taught me. And I do do those things. They're not all channeled into one endeavor.

TEM: He passed away in 2015?

CJ: I would say '14. [Pause.] Sad day.

TEM: Yeah. What did you do with the company after he left? Where you still...?

CJ: His son had taken over as president by then, Jack was still on the board and 00:56:00still there every single day. I was still his assistant, but at that point, folks would come to him with company decisions. He would say, "Got to ask Brett, he's in charge."

TEM: [Laughs.] What did you think that making Barley's Angels yours would mean? What was your vision?

CJ: I just didn't want it to get lost. So here's the chain of events. So, we're in, I don't know, six countries, maybe, by 2012, and Pink Boots Society is applying to get their nonprofit status because they wanted to start offering scholarships.

TEM: Oh, oh.

CJ: So whatever entity that says, I think it's the IRS, that says you can be a 00:57:00nonprofit or you cannot be a nonprofit said the mission statements for Barley's Angels and for Pink Boots Society are conflicting, so you can't have both. So basically, they were going to get denied the 501-C3 rating or status or cut loose Barley's Angels.

TEM: Was that because of the tie with the business side that you were hosting events at businesses? Was that what the conflict within the mission was?

CJ: I don't think I've ever known really the meat and bones of either the mission statements that existed at the time. But for whatever reason they couldn't be a society of professionals in the industry and a consumer group at the same time. I don't know if that was what the definition problem was, but 00:58:00that's what, realistically, was going on. So Terri and the group heading the organization at the time said, "Well, we're just going to let go Barley's Angels." I said, "Whoa, whoa whoa. Hold on. First of all, we have a website." Actually, my background in college is in commercial art and marketing. So as a commercial artist I'd been building websites. So if we let go of this domain name, and any of the chapters that exist want to use it, it will cost hundreds of dollars to resurrect that name because it's been used once. I mean, to the tune of like, 600 bucks! If you let a domain name lapse, because it was a desired name once that someone bought, now it's worth hundreds. So let's not do that. And we've got chapters in six countries. Let's not abandon them and leave them high and dry. How about I take over. I'll take over, I volunteer to take it 00:59:00over, but they couldn't have someone just running it, they had to divest themselves of it. So, I expected to buy the domain name or whatever, and Teri took it to the group - and I think you have a copy of the letter -

TEM: Yeah!

CJ: - Teri took it to the group and they decided to give it to me. Lock stock and barrel.

TEM: Well this is that letter...

CJ: This is the actual signing over.

TEM: Oh, oh, oh, that longer one.

CJ: Yeah, the transfer of it. So she got ahold of me and said, "Yeah, we just decided to give it to you." And I'm like, "Whoa, oh, ok." So they sign it over to me and they give me all of the passwords and access and everything to the accounts, I mean the internet accounts. The webhosting and all of that. And for the first time I look at the website. So here is how you had to start a Barley's Angels chapter. Now suddenly you didn't have to be a member of the Pink Boots 01:00:00Society, but you do have to be a woman, because it's a woman's organization. You have to be female. So, and then, you had to go online and download an application, and print the application, and then you had to handwrite the application. Or you could type it, I suppose. And then you had to either upload it or mail it in, and then it had to get approved, and then you would be contacted again by mail or e-mail or letter, and say you're approved. And then you could mail in your 25-dollar fee. That's quite a lot! And then I go online and look at the website, and it was, like, a black background with dark pink lettering. You couldn't read it! You couldn't even the read the...anything, on the site. So the first thing I did was redesign the site. I just made it readable! I didn't change the copy or the type or the layout or anything, I just 01:01:00made it readable! I just changed the background color and the color of the fonts. And I put an online application on, and I put PayPal to pay for the dues. So now, instead of printing and filling out and filing and all that, now you go on and go "Oh, I like this," type your name and information in, hit the submit button, pay the fee, you've got a Barley's Angels chapter. I think that is why the exponential growth, because it suddenly became very, very easy to do and you could see what you were getting into because you could read the thing! I don't know if I'm selling it short, but I didn't do anything else==! I didn't have an event, I mean, I had an event after that, but it wasn't like I did promotions or went on Facebook. That's the one and only thing that I did.

TEM: Yeah, and it goes from 37 chapters in 2013 to 84 chapters in 2014, which 01:02:00is, I think by all accounts...

CJ: A lot.

TEM: A lot.

CJ: And now it's like over 168 or something like that.

TEM: Yeah! Which is again, in four years...

CJ: It runs itself, it has legs of its own. And I get that feedback from every person that starts a chapter. Usually they already have 30 people or 20 people that are committed to being involved if they do this thing, if they start a chapter. The Austin chapter, at one point they had 70 people on a waiting list to get into the events. Insane. Toronto chapter, they are the first ones really 01:03:00that started out with memberships. So they made card-carrying Barley's Angels members, and the card-carrying members would get discounts at events and they garnered discounts and deals at local establishments, at pubs and restaurants for card-carrying Barley's Angels. That was brilliant. So they did that. There was another one in, god I just looked this up, Lundy Dale started a chapter on the West Coast, on the west end of Canada, and she once said to me that the distributors paid her to be able to present to her chapter. Now there's a twist!

TEM: Was there a point where you were called on to be an advocate? That you felt like people wanted you to speak more broadly to gender equality and equity? Were 01:04:00you put in that position, where you felt like you were speaking for all women's experiences or were expected to speak for all women's experiences?

CJ: I don't know that I've ever been put in the position of being an advocate. I've had to defend it once or twice, not very often, and I'll admit that initially I was uncomfortable with the exclusive nature of Barley's Angels. But that's what it was - it was the nature of it, I couldn't change that without derailing everything. But I was, I was a little uncomfortable with the exclusivity of it, until I had a conversation with Irene Firmat who was CEO at the time of Wholesale Brewing. She may still be, I don't know. I'm a little out 01:05:00of the loop.

TEM: Yeah, I'm not sure. I think she's still in charge but I'm not sure how titles changed when they...

CJ: And I can't reiterate what it was that she said to me, but she had a very moving conversation with me about why it was a good thing for this women-only organization. Both Pink Boots and Barley's Angels. So I got over myself.

TEM: Yeah. I feel like gender has become something that we hear about and talk about a lot. And have for the past, certainly, couple of years...er...the aura around equality has...

CJ: [Laughs.] I'm chuckling because I had a cross-dressing, cross-gender person who is still technically a male but lives his life as a woman contact me about 01:06:00starting Barley's Angels chapters for him and his...his...culture. Gosh, you know, my first response was, "I'm gonna have to get back to you on this." I had to think about it a little while. I don't remember how I put it, I think I eventually put it back in his court. And he never did follow through with starting a chapter. But I wasn't sure how the network of chapters that we have would...would I have a revolt on my hand? What are you doing? But luckily he spared me that. [Pause.] She! I should say she. I'm sorry. She spared me.

TEM: What is the structure for feedback? We talked about how people can set up chapters and don't have to check in with you. You were talking about how 01:07:00sometimes you don't hear from them again.

CJ: Yeah, because they're runnin' with it! You know, they're puttin' on events and they don't need help anymore and they've got plenty of press because they're doing a lot of good things. I try to steer them all, at least for the first event, to make it a fundraiser for something near and dear for their local communities' hearts. And that makes it newsworthy and that's how they end up on the news.

TEM: Is there a board of directors?

CJ: Some chapters do have...

TEM: But not a whole...

CJ: No, I am the director! [Laughs.]

TEM: [Laughs.]

CJ: I am the web-designer, the marketer, the bill-payer, the pocket, the wallet. All the chapters operate autonomously and some of them operate like clubs, some of them operate like businesses. Our German chapters, they actually had to become registered as a business because one of our requirements is that you 01:08:00charge money to attend an event. Everything has more value if you're paying for it, so that's a requirement. And in order to be able to charge money for an event they had to do some sort of registration as a business. So there are a number of chapters in Germany and they all ultimately come through me, and I've got all the records and everything else, but they operate through the one person who set it up there. She took the time and the money to make it legal to do it in Germany.

TEM: The question I want to ask has to do with the changing role of the internet 01:09:00for connecting people and how you still feel like these, kind of, personal in-person community clubs and educational, social chapters are important when we think about the sort of untapped community. How do you feel like Barley's Angels is so relevant and important now? I mean it wasn't that long ago that you took over, so it's not like you took over in 1970 and we didn't have the internet.

CJ: Right?

TEM: I mean, it's not like it's been decades and decades. But how do you feel that Barley's Angels is still relevant or important for the women who are involved?

CJ: Through nothing that the internet has offered. The only thing that the internet has offered is their awareness that we exist. That the idea of sharing beer with women in kind of an organized way. The four rules: food, not a whole bunch of beer, a presenter, and pay money for the event. Those are really the only ru...oh, five. You have to be a woman to found it. And it is for women only. We occasionally have coed things. Man-becue and Chicago Barley's Angels do a Valentine's thing together. I don't know how barbecue works in February in Chicago.

TEM: Man-becue?

CJ: Yeah, men, barbecuing meat.

TEM: Oh, man-becue?

CJ: I guess. But some sort of men's organization that barbecues slabs of meat. I 01:11:00guess they barbecue in February, but I know they do a Valentine's thing together. I don't think the internet has anything to do at all with why it works on the ground and what kind of impact it has in the community. It's only really been for women to find it. In fact, a number of folks who start a chapter say, "I wanted to do something with women and beer and I Googled it and found you." Because I always ask how they find us. Or, you know, "I went to a Barley's Angels event in Austin or Las Vegas or Brazil." Or Hungary. It's crazy.

TEM: What do you imagine the future is? If you had your crystal ball, what do 01:12:00you want to happen? Something that I heard Teri, I think it was Teri, say is that she wants to work her way out of a job. She is no longer, obviously, the person who is in charge, but success would be just not being a thing. So what do you want for the future? Or what do you hope?

CJ: I really honestly want...I want beer and women to be kind of synonymous with Barley's Angels. I want anyone to go, "Barley's Angels? Oh yeah! Women and education and beer." I even stumble on the one-liner.

TEM: [Laughs.] It's a multi-liner, that's why.

CJ: It's a multi-liner, I guess. I want everyone to know who and what Barley's Angels is and that women love beer. Mostly it's about women and beer. I don't want anyone to ever go through half of their life, more than half of their life at this point for me, and think they don't like something because they've never tried any one of the thousands of the flavors that are available. Who would want to go through life thinking that they don't like salt? Or sugar?

TEM: [Laughs.] What do you think the larger impact is?

CJ: Narrowing that gap between men and women, in an industry that actually has its history in family. Somewhere along the centuries it became this man's world that men make it and men drink it and men market it with, with, scantily clad 01:14:00women in bikinis, and only men drink it, and you know, if you're a women, "Ha, ha, ha, ha. You wanna do what?" Yeah, I think I would like to narrow that gender gap, which has nothing to do with the mission statement for Barley's Angels, but that's where I'd like to see it going. It not being a man's world of beer or spirits. You know, one of the better micro-distilleries of Portland has a woman master distiller. I mean, there doesn't need to be this separation anymore. Beer has its roots in women making the beer for the household out of whatever material they had at hand including the herbs that are growing wild in the pasture. It was the women's job. And I don't know how it became different, but it did, and suddenly women are getting teased and harassed if they even want to try it and see what it's about. And it was suddenly 10 or 15 years ago. We had 01:15:00some folks that started a chapter in Brazil come up and visit. She said it's very, very hard for women to get jobs in the industry, for women to be taken seriously in the industry, for women to find places where it's comfortable and safe for them to experiment with it. And that's why she was starting a chapter there. The woman that started the chapter in Argentina, she had once said the same thing to me, "It's very hard here." But not as hard as it used to be.

TEM: Have you seen in your nearly twenty years since you had your first...[Short pause.]

CJ: Uh-Huh. My first beer that I liked.

TEM: Your first beer that you liked. Do you feel like it's different? Do you see 01:16:00more women tasting? Do you see more women making? Do you see a different kind of representation in marketing?

CJ: From the beginning, comparatively from when it started until now, absolutely. I see more women brewers. And I think Pink Boots Society had more to do with more women working in the industry than anything Barley's Angels has done. I absolutely see more women in all aspects of it. Used to be every sales guy that I saw for any brewery was exactly that, a sales guy.

TEM: Mm-Hm.

CJ: And now I see saleswomen too.Trick there is you have to be able to hold your liquor because I am telling you if you're an alcohol salesperson you're inviting with the people you're doing business with and yeah, these women hold their own.

TEM: I've often been curious about looking at gender across the industry, and where are women? We can often look to women as brewers, but there certainly are lots of other places where women are in companies and having influence over taste and product and management.

CJ: Irene Firmat! Teri Fahrendorf was in sales with Great Western. I mean, who better than a brewer to sell them malts to make the beer? Although I think she probably preferred brewing. I don't know, I haven't talked to her in a little while.

TEM: [Laughs.]

CJ: Women bartenders at the craft breweries and even the small breweries. 01:18:00Cambridge brewing had a woman brewer, assistant brewer there before I met anyone other than Teri Fahrendorf. But Teri had met women brewers when she traveled across the country that all said, "[Gasp], another woman brewer?" So that's how rare it was. But it's not really rare anymore.

TEM: What was it like to move back to Eugene - beyond your grand babies?

CJ: I will tell you that moving back to Eugene and walking into The Bier Stein was like a festival that's open every single day. And you know the folks that opened The Bier Stein are old friends of mine and I missed that. And it's a huge wonderful...it is, it is like a beer festival! I mean it's a great place, with better food than they have at the beer festivals. And better company. There's always people that even if you don't know you sit down and start having 01:19:00conversation. That's the West Coast beer scene. We live in a microcosm here. That's not what's happening in Tennessee. I was in Kentucky recently and got treated to going to a couple of breweries and they weren't very full, you know, it was a weekend. Like, where is everybody? But they were open and they were there and they were making some pretty damn good beers. And had great atmosphere and ambiance, and you could bring your dog inside the bar.

TEM: [Laughs.]

CJ: How good does that get? There were some pretty sweet dogs hangin' out in 01:20:00there. But yeah, I just get feedback from folks in other parts of the country, and they say, "that's not what it's like here."

TEM: Beer in Eugene is very very interesting in a way that beer in Bend is very interesting and beer in Portland is very interesting. And it's a very different kind of interesting. But one thing that's so fascinating to me about Eugene is that you have these really big companies make a big difference in neighborhoods. I mean I think about-

CJ: Ninkasi!

TEM: Ninkasi! I think about driving down through the Blair neighborhood, and I remembered as an adult driving and as a younger adult driving, and the roads were different. Like, it had become a neighborhood that had roads that people cared about.

CJ: You're right!

TEM: And that always sticks out to me. How Oakshire and Ninkasi became these places were people went. With your hat firmly on as somebody who is concerned about consumers more broadly - I'm sure that you're, you know, thinking about this as an industry - does it seem different?

CJ: Absolutely. Well, it still was always packed. Even when I first discovered beer back in 1999, always packed. But were they packed for the beer? Yes, Teri, they were packed for your beer.

TEM: [Laughs.]

CJ: But the food too. But other places too - the Wild Duck was also always packed. Again, high end food there. The smaller [ones], like Spencer's, which is 01:22:00right off of I-5, just floundered. One business after another, that location. But now it's flourishing so well that they have two locations. They've got the brewery around First or Second Street in Eugene, not far from Ninkasi, and then they've still got the Springfield location where they started. So, just, that's a sign right there that that place finally got to stand up on its own two feet and get enough support from people drinkin' beer. And then Plank Town opened up on Main Street in Springfield, and it's a beautiful place. Have you been there?

TEM: I have been there.

CJ: I love that place!

TEM: They have amazing historic photos on the walls. That was why I was there.

CJ: They have this big giant blade on the wall too. I make it a point not to sit 01:23:00at the tables underneath that blade. I'm convinced that it's anchored very securely, by Steve Ross and the brewer. Nonetheless, I sit elsewhere.

TEM: [Laughs.]

CJ: You know, the little breweries that were, that have made it and survived and grown, and are big and flourishing. That's the sign right there that it's different. But you're right about Ninkasi. I think Ninkasi changed the game as far as brewing in Eugene. Because there were all little brew pubs that were opening up. Even Oakshire's was a little brew pub that was opening up. And when Jamie and his partner Nikos decided to open a brewery, it was just a brewery. Their whole point was making the beer and wholesaling the beer, not trying to do the restaurant thing. And, you know, Nikos was an investment man, so they had 01:24:00the resources to realize their dream. I wonder if it's outgrown the dream. I should ask Jamie about that.

TEM: I have talked to people at Block 15, and certainly not that same kind of amazing level of growth in facilities.

CJ: But they're still open, they're still goin'.

TEM: Yeah! And I think they just built a new production facility down south of town and I think it's that same, like, how do you grow, how do you maintain that kind of core of why you started in the first place as you grow.

CJ: And consistency is first. You know, you've got the people that love your beer, and then you go from the small brew pub to all the numbers finally making 01:25:00sense and expanding all the costs, incredible costs. And keeping the beer tasting the same. You know, two different breweries can make the same recipe with the same ingredients, and the same amount of time. And just the yeast in the environment inside the brewery are different. And the beer can taste different. So keeping your customer base. The new costumers you're gonna get because now you're a production brewery and you're making a thousand gallons more beer than you were before. They're not gonna know the difference. But those poor people, you want to keep them too. And make everybody happy? Not possible. But good enough to flourish. Hop Valley did it. And then there's the breweries that are partnering or selling to InBev or Les Coeurs or, what's the Mexican one?

TEM: Well it's not Corona.

CJ: Anyway. I think I have an unpopular feeling about that. And the popular feeling about that is everyone thinks they're selling out. And my unpopular thinking is people like Lagunitas (Tony-something, I don't know, I've never met him.) But worked his whole life building this brewery and this business and this brand. Maybe he's ready to retire. Maybe the best option to keep Lagunitas in business so the people can continue to taste that, so that all of his employees and his brewers can continue to have the jobs that they have with the benefits that they have is to sell to a company that has the resources to keep it all going. The feedback I've gotten from breweries that have sold has been that - 01:27:00InBev in particular - I spoke at length with a brewery in the Midwest. And I asked him what changed. The recipe has changed? No. The ingredients you're able to use? No. What's different? Safety's improved. Really? And they're making more beer. And they're selling more beer. Because now they've got the distribution network behind them. And the fear, not the fear, the reality was, before this stuff started happening, the small brewer was getting squeezed out because at the time - it was not in InBev, it was Anheuser-Busch - their distributer ships 01:28:00would take on the microbreweries and their portfolio, and not promote them, and not move them, and not sell them. And maybe that's why a lot of the places were opening and closing. But now the small breweries that are being bought or partnered with or invested in, they are being promoted and moved. I mean, even big business recognize that craft beer is big business!

TEM: Yeah, it's fascinating. I've talked to a handful of people at Ten Barrel, they were some of my favorite interviews. To talk to them about what changed. And I interviewed Tonya Cornett in her little lab area. Not much bigger than this. It's longer. But I think that this feeling of having support and the funds 01:29:00to do creative stuff, and having access to ingredients that you wouldn't have.

CJ: Oh, that you couldn't get or couldn't afford.

TEM: And Tonya was an important reflection point for me as an interviewer to think about how important it is to talk to different people directly and not through the media. Yeah. It was a very big aha for me. "Oh, it is important to go to the original sources."

CJ: You know, Tonya Cornett is a recipient of the Glen Hay Falconer scholarship.

TEM: Oh, I didn't know that!

CJ: I think she was the first woman to receive the scholarship. When Glen passed away, we, people who loved him, established a foundation and started an annual 01:30:00festival with the goal of being able to give people scholarships. We partnered immediately with Seibel, and it's called the Glen Hay Falconer Memorial Scholarship. No, Foundation. The Glen Hay Falconer Memorial Foundation. In the first year there was enough money to put into the kind of a fund that grows.

TEM: Endowment?

CJ: I don't know. Seibel matched the foundational scholarship one, and now to date Siebel offers two a year and the American Brews Guild offers two, and this has been going on since 2002. Tonya was one of the recipients.

TEM: And they do a festival every year?

CJ: Every year. I think one year might not have happened due to licensing issues. No, no, they pulled it off. But yep: do a festival every year in Eugene. Lisa Morrison and Don Younger and Fred Eckhardt (I believe he was involved), the three of them got the BrewAm going, which happens at Edgefield every year. And it's this really fun golfing thing that's like, not serious golfing at all.

TEM: [Laughs.]

CJ: Edgefield lets them bring outside beer to sponsor the holes. So there's beer poured at the holes, and you get to play with your favorite brewer. And John Maier plays, so folks sign up to play golf with John, and with Jamie and with Sean O'Sullivan and it's just a blast.

TEM: Then that funds the scholarship too?

CJ: Yes, and then the scholarship recipient also brewed a beer that also raised funds for the organization. The hugest contribution to the fund was Hopunion. We had a person from Eugene start working for Hopunion, and he said he was in the warehouse looking around at all the hops and saying "If I wanted to make Glen's Sasquatch Ale, I would have to buy that hop and that hop and that hop and that hop and that hop and that hop and that hop, and man, that would be too expensive for me as a home brewer to do. Maybe we could blend. This was the first time a hop distributor blended, made a blend of hops - and they blended Falconer's Flight. I think that's the name of the hops. That or that was the first beer made with 'em. Anyway, they donated a dollar for every pound that was sold. They 01:33:00gave us 40,000 dollars that first year. And they continue to offer that blend of hops. We have gone off on a tangent but it's pretty marvelous. See, this is that brewing community that I talked about when we first started.

TEM: What was it about Glen was special and inspired this?

CJ: He delighted in delighting people. When I first met him, I was moved by that. His whole thing with beer was to see someone's face light up and go, "wow, that's great." And that made his day. And he loved people. And he was a teacher. He taught swimming.

TEM: Oh, I didn't know that!

CJ: He was a swim teacher in Indonesia. Spoke a bunch of languages and had hair and beard down to his, you know, rib cage. I don't know, he just was one of 01:34:00those very gregarious, likable giants. He was, you know, 6' 3'', or something crazy like that. I had a woman once say to me, "When I go places with my husband about beer they talk to him like I'm not there. But whenever I came to the Wild Duck with my husband, Glen would come out and talk to me too. He always made me feel welcome." He just was like that. He loved people and I don't think he ever forgot a single person that he ever met. When he passed away hundreds of people flew in from all over the country. I still have trouble wrapping my head around this - they would all say to me "I talked to Glen just two weeks ago," or "Glen called me every month," or "every two weeks Glen would call me from the bathtub."

TEM: [Laughs.]

CJ: That was his thing. On Sundays he would get in the bath and bring his whiskey and beer, and sit in the hot bath with the phone cord that had like a thirty foot cord on it. He'd drag it in there from the kitchen, and he'd make phone calls to people. So he stayed connected to everybody. And I don't think he had a mean bone in his body. Loved by everyone. A great brewer. Really gifted brewer. He got medals posthumously after he passed away.

TEM: And I think that's what it is. It has always been interesting to me to think about the impact he had. And it's clear that people adored him and respected him as a brewer. That it's not just like we do this little festival and then this thing happens, that there's this larger ripple impact.

CJ: And he was the person that I met, and learned that on the West Coast 01:36:00everybody shares what they're doing with everyone. He didn't have secrets about how to make this beer or that beer, or when to pitch the yeast, or what temperature to boil it at or how long to boil it. Maybe that's what endeared him in the brewing community. Maybe that wasn't unique to him. Like you were saying, I think that's the home brewer mentality. Sentiment. Share. Let's everybody make a better beer. Why not? But I don't know. He knew. He shared. He loved. He played hard. And everyone loves it.

TEM: What did you think that I would ask you about that I didn't ask you about? I feel like we've tendrilled out a lot. But I wanted to make sure that we followed any tendrils...there's got to be some metaphor that goes with pulling a tendril.

CJ: Well, Oregon Barley's Angels, since this is the Oregon museum and the Oregon thing, Heater Allen, uh...the daughter of the owner? I don't have my list open...

TEM: Lisa.

CJ: Lisa, thank you. She started a chapter, and I can't tell you how stoked I am when I walk into a grocery store and I see seven or eight Heater Allen beers in a line. I had to take a picture and share that. I'm just going to do a quick search here for Oregon. Oh, or I could go to our website. Instead of my spreadsheet. Barley's Angels.org. I also have Barley's Angels.beerwillgetyouthere. But it for some reason takes longer to load.

TEM: Barley's Angel's.beer?

CJ: Mm-hm. Yeah, I know I was saying, "Oh, I don't have internet here." Sad face. Ha. I guess I don't get a signal.

TEM: I'm not surprised. Signals are weird in here. I'm surprised that you got any buzzing.

CJ: You know, Barley's Angels is just not as big in Oregon as one might expect. You know, I was carrying it and did it in Portland and then we did a couple of conferences. That's an awful lot to do. And I don't work for a brewery anymore. So when I worked for a brewery, and Jack was my boss, he once asked me what I was doing with an upcoming event that I was doing for Barley's Angels. And I 01:39:00said, well, I'm gettin' there. I'm workin' on it after work and stuff. And he said, "Why are you doin' that?" I said, "Well, because I'm on the clock for you." And he said, "Do what you gotta do. Do this part of this Angels and make it happen." And I said, "Oh, well, oh, ok." So I was able to. But not where I'm at now. I don't work in the brewing industry. I'm not putting on an event that my boss loves. I mean, she probably would love it, but I'm doing something completely different now. So I don't have as much time to put on events. I have laid the groundwork to do an event at The Bier Stein (of course), and an event at - what's the place that was over at Whittakers and now is over on Mill Street- Sam Bond's.

TEM: Oh yeah, that was one of those weird Oregon or Eugene changes that my mind can't accept that it is there.

CJ: That little tiny, strange, weird venue that everyone loves. Standing room only with the cool patio out back. Have you been in the new place?

TEM: I've just been by. We went to coffee across the street.

CJ: It's a historic mill!

TEM: Yeah, it's very cool.

CJ: It's a very cool place.

TEM: Well, I think it would be fun to do something for 2020 for the women's suffrage anniversary.

CJ: Oh...yes. Agreed. Maybe we should do a conference. One of my goals has been to do a beer festival that focuses on breweries that have women brewers.

TEM: I've thought about this though. And the importance of Oregon as the birthplace of Pink Boots, or again as the birthplace of Barley's Angels. I think the Portland chapter of Pink Boots is growing now, but it almost - not that it wasn't needed - but I think that this region is different than different regions.

CJ: Absolutely.

TEM: So, in a way, it's sort of the grand irony of the birthplace being here but in being so important for Argentina or for Brazil to have this kind of infrastructure and maybe...

CJ: Maybe that's what allows these women-beer organizations to emerge. Because 01:42:00it's a place that's supportive of anybody that wants to try this beverage.

TEM: I haven't done an extensive study on that. [Laughs.]

CJ: Oh! Well, let me know when you do! I want to be on your mailing list. Seriously.

TEM: [Laughs.] My mailing list. I did realize at one point that I actually had a list. Like, oh I have talked to an amount of people. Oh, there is a list.

CJ: Oakshire is making a couple of stouts that I can't go without. And my 01:43:00favorite all-time stout really is from Hop Hub.

TEM: Oh yeah! Hop Works.

CJ: Hop Works Urban Brewery, Christian Ettinger's place. He does this - I think they call it a breakfast stout - but it's coffee and other things and it's the best stout in the world. [Laughs.] As far as I'm concerned! I've got stout on the brain now that it's winter.

TEM: Yeah, I know! It is that. I gave a talk for the home brew club in Eugene a year ago, two years ago, and I was delighted at the food carts at Oakshire. The food cart used to be a restaurant. And now I'm blanking on the name of the 01:44:00restaurant, but it was a restaurant that I was really, really sad had gone away. It was down by the post office. I didn't know that it had a food cart, so this is like fifteen years after they had closed. And I was at Oakshire and the person who was the owner was running the food cart at that time. And I thought, I just feel like crying, I'm so excited! And now I can't even remember who it is.

CJ: [Laughs.] I was there a couple weeks ago, and they had a barbecue food cart truck out there - big old truck. Man, is that some good barbecue.

TEM: We have a handful of them come to the farmer's market, but I think that kind of model of food carts pairing with breweries is really interesting. There 01:45:00was one in Astoria...

CJ: I think the first one to do that that I recall was here in Portland. Up in 01:46:00north Portland, northeast Portland. I remember when they were opening the place, they decided to go that route. It's like 10,000 to install a hood over an oven in a kitchen. So ridiculously expensive just to put the equipment in there. I mean, that piece probably cost more than all the other equipment in the kitchen combined. I know you can get a fryer for a lot less than that. So they decided to go that route. They're still in business, but they moved to Washington, Vancouver now. I did record the tasting Julia Herz did with all the different items. I think, yes I'm certain, it is available at Craft Brew Cast.

TEM: Yeah! I actually do want to ask you about that. I'm curious what it was like to start a podcast in 2007.

CJ: With no idea what a podcast was.

TEM: Well, and people not knowing what it was.

CJ: I used to say it's like radio on-demand. Especially in the brewing industry, none of these beer-drinkers, brewers, brew-makers, none of them knew what a podcast was either. [Laughs.] So I used to say it's like on-demand radio. And this was before you could subscribe to radio service - Sirius radio, this is 01:48:00before Sirius radio. Yeah, that's how I used to describe it. It was such a huge learning curve, but I broke my back, I had the audios that I had recorded of Jamie when I went, but I hadn't really done anything with them. So I was recuperating, I had time on my hands at home going stir-crazy, and decided to jump in and just do it. So it just was a lot of internet research. And what is editing audio, do I have to buy software? There were a lot of technical specifications on how many hertz the audio can be in order for it to stream. I would do this thing and upload it and then it wouldn't play, because it wasn't the right megahertz for streaming over the internet. And it was crazy. So what I 01:49:00would do is I would spend two weeks on getting a podcast done and edited and in the right format and all of that. And educating myself because it's not working, and figuring out how to make it work. I've thought about publishing a little white paper on how to get rolling. A lot of things that I wished had been easy to find in one place. How to host it. What is hosting, what does it mean, where does it live on the internet, every single aspect was all...I was completely ignorant. So I'd spend two weeks getting one up there that worked. And then I'd spend two weeks on the website. And then I'd spend two weeks getting another one done. And two weeks on the website. And that was kind of my rhythm for a while. I think I pod-faded, as they call it.

TEM: [Laughs.] I remember Storycorps came out, and I was working at Lane 01:50:00Community College, and I said to the archivist there (I was grant-funded on a project), and I said to the archivist, "this is amazing, you know, this Storycorps thing, this is absolutely fascinating that these interviews are coming out." It feels very different - these kind of personal stories are very different from what I'm used to hearing. I remember her saying that the editing of these is so intense that the interview itself is the easy part, it's the short part. That, you have the duration of the conversation that you'd have, but the editing and the seaming of this together. And I think that we in the library and archives world hear a lot of people saying, "you guys have a lot of audio and video content, you should have a podcast." [Laughs.] And we're, like, oh my 01:51:00gosh. I love that but it's...

CJ: I have hours and hours and hours of audio that I haven't done anything with. So, with all of my podcasts, this formula seemed to be about right: it takes two times the time to edit the duration of the podcast. So for a thirty minute podcast, that meant I spent an hour editing it, at least. And then I'm a perfectionist too. And anything I cut I try to cut in such a way that you couldn't hear it. I think I succeeded for the most part. Also, because of the culture of the beer community, I watched journalists come in to interview friends of mine who are professional brewers, and saw and heard and 01:52:00participated. Leading up to those interviews, they didn't want to do it, and they hated doing it, and their words always got twisted around, and no matter what you said you never knew what it was going to be when it came out. These were people I was acquainted with or friends with, and they talked to me willingly and openly. And so I recognized that I needed to make sure that what went out there was something that they would feel comfortable saying in public. So maybe someone's in a tiff with another brewery and they might say something. I edited it out. I never left anything in there that wasn't favorable coming out of their lips about one another. That's in keeping with the kind of culture that I saw when we were doing it. But I never wanted them to be reflected in a bad 01:53:00light. And I even occasionally, like in Julia's instance - she wanted to hear what I did before I put it out there - I didn't want to cause any issues. When Allen Sprint was opening the restaurant, I did an interview with him down at the Brewery. He had this little tiny brewery in this really obscure warehouse-y location. But when you say warehouse, you're thinkin' big. I mean small, like, the size of this office is bigger than his brewery was.

TEM: [Laughs.]

CJ: And he had mentioned to me before I turned on the recorder that he was opening a restaurant. And so when I turned on the recorder and we were doing the 01:54:00interview I asked him if we could talk about that and he said no. So we couldn't do it. Dang it! Jack Joyce did that to me too. You know, while I was doing the podcasts, the warehouse at Hopunion burned down. Do you remember that?

TEM: I know that it happened and that it was a very large deal.

CJ: Yeah! It was a huge hit. It meant a shortage of hops available. And the hop prices had plummeted, so farmers stopped growing hops. That was this huge backlog of hops. And they tore out their posts and their trellising, and quit growing hops altogether. And now there's a hop shortage, and no farmers growin' it. So Rogue, Rogue started the hop farm. But this was right before the hop farm, and I did an interview with Jack Joyce, and I was so excited that he was 01:55:00gonna' let me interview him on the podcast, and I was gonna get to break this 01:56:00news that Rogue Farms was startin' up, and he said no. Wouldn't talk about it yet. God damn it. That was the whole point! That was the only thing I wanted to talk with him about. [Laughs.]

TEM: [Laughs.]

CJ: And I said, "Oh! Ok. Let me think of something else I wanted to ask you about." But anyway.

TEM: I feel like this sometimes, that I'm in sort of a strange role as a documentarian. That I do know things and sometimes you sort of flirt with that line, like, can I ask this person recognizing that it's recorded. And we don't edit.

CJ: Interesting tidbit: Jimmie Mills' restaurant, his location in Ashland actually was Rogue Ales' first location. Yeah, that was Rogue's first location, and then the river and the creek flooded and ruined everything. And Jack used to 01:57:00tell the story that he was driving up the coast looking for another location, and he actually got snowed in in Newport. You know, the pass, I guess. So he got snowed in, of all places, in Newport, and he was sittin' at a bar and sitting next to him was Mo of Mo's Chowder, and they got to talking, and she said, I think I've got a place for you, if you promise to hang a picture of me over your bar. And that was the Newport pub on the bayfront there. And she lived in one of 01:58:00their suite apartments. So the picture that she gave him to hang above the bar is a large poster-sized photograph of her naked in a bathtub. And that was the deal. But he said when they came on hard times, she would give them slack on the rent. But when it came to when they were ready to start distributing, she'd let them use her truck. It was just a great relationship between those two. So that's why Rogue is in Newport.

TEM: Did she own a bunch of property?

CJ: I don't know. I don't know a lot of her history, only where it intersects with Rogue.

TEM: Well, anything you would like to add?

CJ: I just hope that our little microcosm kind of become infectious and contagious and I think that that's what Barley's Angels that are out there are spreading across the world and doing. I wish we had a bigger presence in Oregon, 01:59:00but what can I say?

TEM: A lot of beer drinkers.

CJ: A lot of beer drinkers. And I'm not in Portland anymore. I did have a gal I thought might be interested in starting a chapter because she just wanted to participate and come to some events. [She said,] "Who's doing it in Portland, I wanna go?" And I said, "Interesting you should ask, but I don't live there anymore." There was a gal in Colorado and she kind of spends half her time in Colorado and half her time in Portland, and she's in marketing too, and she technically took over the Portland chapter. But she was relocating, and it's been years now and she's still in Colorado, so I don't think she's doing 02:00:00anything. Apparently not.

TEM: Well, it seems like there is still a need, there is still this growth happening.

CJ: We're the new demographic. And that was something Julia Herz and I had 02:01:00talked about in 2012. She felt like Barley's Angels was a sign of its times and that the next demographic that really craft beer has to move into is, you know, women consumers. And here we are, how many years later. I like to think things are better in at least the towns where the Barley's Angels chapters are. I don't know, I'm not there. I keep threatening to travel and go to some, but...

TEM: [Laughs.]

CJ: I would love nothing more than to be able to travel and go to some. I have a VW bus. I could take it, but will it get me there? Thank heavens for Teri Fahrendorf and her vision and Lisa Morrison and her vision! They started it. Oh, 02:02:00Lisa started the chapter in Astoria.

TEM: Oh, I didn't know that!

CJ: Yep, yep. I mean, she probably registered the first chapter, but I had the event first.

TEM: [Laughs.] I imagine she would split the first.

CJ: Now she's got Belmont Station, which is an institution in Portland, I think.

TEM: Yeah, it's amazing. Just the variety is amazing.

CJ: Mm-Hm. Mm-Hm. Yeah, it's the small, quaint, comfortable, cozy, with the store attached, and the great outdoor seating and the fabulous cart, that Italian food cart. And then The Bier Stein is the stylish, dare I say it, yuppie...

TEM: [Laughs.]

CJ: But it's fun, it's comfortable, and it's comfortable because there's always 02:03:00people and they're going, "Hey!" Small town, ish. Great food, amazing beer. That whole - it's almost like a mile long - cooler with gazillions of bottles of beer and cider. I love it!

TEM: Well, thank you for talking.

CJ: Sure, thanks for having me!