Sophia Williams Oral History Interview

JOZIE BILLINGS: Okay. Today is February 11th, 2024. I'm here with Sophia over zoom and I'm in Corvallis, Oregon. Where are you at today?

SOPHIA WILLIAMS: I'm in Corvallis, Oregon, as well.

JB: Cool. Okay. My name is Jozie Billings, and we are doing this interview as a part of my honors thesis project, Beyond the Binary. Welcome to the interview. Do you just want to reiterate for the interview how you identify and what your pronouns are.

SW: Yes. My name is Sophia Williams. I identify as a cis-woman, so she/her pronouns. And I think that, should I introduce- I don't know.

JB: Yeah that works. That works. All right. So we're going to start with the beginning, with your childhood. Can you just talk a little bit about, maybe experiences you had in your childhood that you think were formative for your gender? What kind of activities were involved in, stuff like that?

SW: Yeah. Honestly, sometimes I think my childhood was pretty interesting in comparison to other peoples. So my mom was actually like the breadwinner, I guess you would say. Like she was the one working all the time. My dad was a stay at home dad. Like, it was kind of interesting because the roles were reversed. So when I was with my friends, oftentimes their moms would always be the ones around, like we would be hanging out and like, my dad would become friends with their moms and like, my mom would be the one who'd have to, like, come meet everybody. So it was kind of interesting seeing how that formed a lot of different ways, I think now, or the way I act now, seeing my mom being the one who was always kind of like the head of the house, I guess, in a way, working a lot. To me, it was normal for my dad to be a stay at home dad. I was just, like, chillin' with that. For my hobbies, I really have always loved, fashion and, like, fashion design. I, like, can remember just having these booklets of, like. I don't know if you've seen them before, but they would be like croquis, kind of like just like bodies, but like, you could draw on outfits. And I had like stacks of those books just because they were fun to like draw little outfits in all the time. And, my parents always had us do one sport at all times, kind of. But I'm not I'm not really a sporty person. So I had to, like, find my way in that like, tried ballet. Was not, not a ballet girl. There was like, I did soccer for indoor soccer for a little while, just when I was like, kind of in elementary school. That was okay. I did swimming in, which I liked swimming, but then they started to introduce, like, really hard, like conditioning. And I was not a fan of that either. So, I was like, no, I did this for fun. I'm not going to do that anymore. Then I found volleyball in like, fifth or sixth grade, and that's when I really, really liked, I ended up really liking that sport and pursued that until high school, when I ultimately end up stopping. Another thing I did that I felt like really changed the way I was as a person was I was in a band and not like-I did do other music like orchestra, but I was in like a band, like a guitar, like drums, singer, stuff. We would play at like, like little pub things like, and stuff. And that was great. I was scared, really. I was so, I was really, really shy before that. But my parents made me do it because they were like, if you don't like it, you can stop, but just try it out. And I ended up loving it. And I feel like that personally made me become a lot more outgoing because I had to be on stages and like, just pretend that I wasn't really afraid of everybody in the room at first. But as soon as I kind of got the hang of it, I realized it wasn't really that scary anymore. And I actually like people. And so, like, talking to people was a lot easier and doing stuff like that. Would you like me to go into detail about any certain thing? I haven't talked [indistinguishable] it could go on.

JB: The band thing-what instrument do you play in the band?

SW: I sang, and then I played the keyboard. So, like piano-type stuff? Yeah.

JB: Do you still do that?

SW: I do, I'm sad because I don't have a piano or like a keyboard here in Corvallis, but when I go home, I play a lot like on the piano that we have even I'm working on getting a keyboard down here, but it's kind of hard with travel, like the size of it. And just like I always, I'm missing pieces. But I do like playing and singing still. Like I'll sing in my room and stuff, but.

JB: Cool. Yeah. So, you mentioned your mom was the breadwinner. I was wondering if, like, she was a type of role model of you for femininity? Or maybe anyone else, if not your mother?

SW: Yeah, I would say two really strong, like, feminine role models for me is my mom and my grandma. My grandma on my dad's side. Very different, very different archetypes. But, my mom is a very, like, worker, always working. She can. Yeah. If I'm thinking of, like, femininity versus masculinity and where those intersect, like, I feel like she's kind of in the middle, like feminine, but not, like, super outwardly feminine. Not very, not very romantic type. Not very, like, that type of way. But I really admired her work ethic and her ability to always get things done. And her ability of knowledge, she's a very intelligent woman. And then I have my grandma-and my mother's a very motherly person. Like, she's always caring and stuff, but it's just she is a little bit more, especially when I was younger, a little more kind of just a very working person. But my grandma, we were we were with my grandma a lot as well. After my dad had to go back to work for financial purposes and stuff, he would just kind of work part time. He was a teacher, so he kind of worked at, like, different, colleges, like the community colleges and then high schools, too. But that was later, like at first it was just a few classes at like college. So, we would stay with my grandma a lot. She would take care of us a lot. We lived in the same town. She would always take care of us, and she was more of the stay-at-home mom type. Like, she had, like, five children, mostly took care of them. And then she was working, too. She worked at, a fabric store. She's a seamstress, so she would always be making clothes. And that's where I got a lot of my, I feel like, creativity. I mean, my mom is an artist. Like, she makes beautiful, beautiful paintings, but she is not very-she doesn't do that anymore. And she doesn't like to do that. So, like, when I went to creativity, like doing things with my grandma, she would always do every single project with me. Whatever I wanted to do, she just would get the projects for me and my sisters work on them. She's very, very kind. Very like nurturing in a way. I mean, it's kind of, I feel like my mom has both, like, I feel like they both have certain qualities of each. But I think those two people really impacted, like who I am and how I carry myself as a person. I guess I would say.

JB: Do you think your, dad impacted you at all, being the one that would stayed at home the most?

SW: I definitely am a daddy's girl, slash was a daddy's girl. Yeah, I was with my dad, like, so, so much like, me and my dad were just, like, best friends all the time. And, I definitely got a lot of qualities from him. Especially just because he was a very, very, like, caring, nurturing person. Like, he would always put his, like, daughters before everybody. He would always just. He did ballet with us. Yeah. He got invited to do The Nutcracker with my sister, and he was like, okay, sure, I'll do it. So, he was in The Nutcracker with her. He was never afraid to do any type of anything with us. He would do whatever he, we wanted to do, and he would, but he was still a very like, he was a very masculine person. So seeing how he can be feminine in that, like you're still a masculine presenting and like, you know, he was a wrestler, strong, worked out a lot like, but he made us strong like that. So, like we wrestled with him. Like he made sure that we could take care of ourselves. And he always made sure that we knew that we could take care of ourselves, and we don't need to rely on anybody. And both my parents, that was a very strong value that they instilled in me is my independence and my ability to take care of myself and handle myself while still being kind and understanding. And, I don't know, I guess that's the best phrasing I could put it, but yeah, I don't know. I feel like those are the three main people that impacted me the most out of, like, everyone in my life for sure. And like authority or like, like, you know, not like at the same level as you like, you know.

JB: A parental guardian type of role.

SW: Yeah.

JB: Was there anyone, like, your age, I guess, that influenced you.

SW: I mean, I had a lot of different friends, friend experiences, friend groups. Like my sister. I have a little sister. She definitely impacted how I am as a person. And, well, when you grow up as someone, it's just very, very, just a unique bonding experience with that person. At least for me it was, we did pretty much everything together. My dad always was like, never leave anybody out. Everybody, include everybody and all that stuff. So, we did everything together. She is much, she was a much more-I was a, like, a shy talk-to-nobody, like, just kind of in my own-and that's not who I am now at all. But it's like the complete opposite. But when I was kid, like, I was like, super hide-from-people-at-my-own-birthday party, like, and stuff. And she was very like the opposite of that. Very outgoing, so cute, very charismatic, very diva-ish sometimes, but in, like, a good way, I guess there were some moments, but, but then I feel like I, like I said, I was like, really, really shy. I did barely talk to anybody. My friends that I had were like, my friends I like, and that's it. And like, and I was fine with that. I did not mind being alone at all. I honestly felt like I was really ignorant to the fact that people cared about having friends. Like, I just was kind of like, okay, well, if you want to hang out, cool. If not, I'm still gonna hang out here. Like, yeah, I don't know, but I met my best friend from one of my previous best friends, but she's now my best friend. Like family. She's like my sister. And I feel like when I became friends with her in our old friend group, is when I began to really find myself and find who I wanted to be. I became a lot more outgoing. I came out more confident and surer of myself and knowing that, oh, I don't, I know that I have my friends like, these are my friends. I don't care about anybody else. Like they think I'm funny. We like, we have a good time. Nobody else really matters. And then that's when I really started being more outgoing, talking to more people, really establishing my own uniqueness and being okay if people don't like me or if people don't like certain things I did. And that's, and then that's kind of got me here, I guess.

JB: Yeah. You've talked about all these people that were like, influences on you, like, where do you see yourself in, within the spectrum of femininity?

SW: It's kind of interesting because sometimes I feel like I'm a pretty feminine person. I wouldn't say I'm super masculine, but I think that I do have certain masculine qualities. I think that sometimes I can be more masculine and, like, instead of, like, hyper feminism. But I think I definitely lean more towards a little bit more of the stereotypical feminism that you see then versus like more masc. But I think I have certain qualities where I would say I'm pretty, like, assertive. I would say I'm pretty gonna, you know, say my opinion. I'm not going to back down, really, on a lot of, like, I'm not going to easily back down in a way of like just getting, I don't know. I definitely think that I'm trying to, like, I'm trying I don't know, it's kind of hard to put into words, but I think it's at a point where it's like certain times I'll be a little bit more masculine or have masculine traits, or even dress a little bit more, even though I really typically am pretty high, like feminism, feminine, like feminine. That's what I meant.

JB: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. You said something that I wanted to circle back on, but I forgot it. So we're just gonna keep on moving. Yeah, so, you mentioned something about stereotype, like stereotypes of femininity. Do you ever feel like constrained by those stereotypes or even just as a woman in this society?

SW: Yes, sometimes. Okay...yes. I guess I feel like, I don't know, I feel-not necessarily constrained because I know at the end of the day that personally, I believe I can do whatever I want or I am able or capable to. I know that might not be the case for everybody, but for me, I personally don't feel constrained in certain, like, I'm constraining myself in any way. But I definitely do see some constraints in terms of like just being a woman in society. Just with like, I don't know. I've had a lot of experiences where, you know, people don't really take you seriously because you're a woman, I guess, in certain areas or, yeah, I don't know. I feel like certain times people will believe like, I don't know, maybe you couldn't do it or maybe you-I can't, like, pinpoint a specific moment, really. I'm trying to, like, think about a specific time, but I definitely think that there are some restrictions in a certain sense of just patriarchal. Being, how we've lived that long and it being such embedded into the societal culture and everything, that there's going to be restrictions because of your gender. I just personally think that being as I've seen that and lived that, especially in terms of like non-binary people or something like that, I feel like they face those issues as well because of the fact that there are restrictions, in a sense, of people like to put things into a binary. So, it gets, I feel like it kind of constrains a lot of people, in a way.

JB: That makes sense. Were there any other significant influences on your gender that weren't people? Like, I don't know if you're religious, but maybe your religion, if your family was religious, maybe a job you had, where you grew up.

SW: Okay. I grew up, in Tacoma, Washington, so the Pacific Northwest, which I felt, well, I love the Pacific Northwest just because I personally feel it's very much more welcoming than other environments I've heard about from across the states. I felt like for the majority of the time, like it felt like, like for me, in my experience, I felt like everyone was equal in my brain and like how I was seeing things. But like, you know, as you grow up, you see, like that's not necessarily the case or hearing certain people talk about certain things. I know my family was religious. They were Catho-like, well, my grandparents are still religious, but my personal nuclear family was not super religious. It was kind of just like bringing you... We were like spiritual, but then we would go to like Catholic school and like or like Sunday school or something. And it's like bringing you the ability to choose what you wanted to do, I guess, in a way, like my parents kind of framed it like, there's a lot out there so you can, like, explore these different things and choose these different things. My grandparents, however, did want us to be like baptized, in Catholic school, communion, all that kind of stuff. I, personally, didn't feel like that impacted me that much, just because I think a lot of the times when I was doing the church stuff, I don't think I was really thinking much about anything. I just kind of doing it, because I felt like I had to do that. So I was just like in here. And plus I was like ten. So I really didn't grasp anything that was going on. I was kind of at a school doing something. But, spirituality is something that I've grown to be more comfortable in and understand a little bit more. I felt like my parents really like, took those, like, beliefs and like. Yeah, I felt like that was more important to my childhood. Like certain saging practices we did a lot. And, ever since I can remember, we would talk about crystals and stuff like that. We just talked about the different things that are out there that could possibly be the case, I guess. I feel like that's been interesting to navigate as I get older and kind of straying away from like religion, especially with the constructs that religion-specifically like Catholic and Christianity, personally, from my experience-would have brought to the table. I really struggle with, when people, well, a lot of people, well not a lot of people, but I know some people who believe that men are head of the household or should be the provider, and I just don't align with that belief. So I just feel like that doesn't really make sense for me, what I grew up with, like everything that I've experienced, just doesn't really make sense to me. I personally feel like I should be more of an equal, just like partnership thing going on. But, so I've definitely had some experiences where people I know are like that or like try to instill beliefs like that or question people how I believe, I guess, in a way of like those beliefs. So that has been interesting as I've grown up to see certain people believe that and certain people like drift from that, I guess. Yeah.

JB: Yeah. You mentioned that "providing" is kind of associated with masculine people and masculinity. And I've heard people say like, being a protector is also associated with masculinity. Do you think that all those traits should be equal, like between the two? Or do you think there's any that kind of like lend one to the other?

SW: I definitely can understand, like, there being more, like, I don't know if I'm thinking about like the yin yang type vibe or pieces of a whole, like it makes sense to have more traits than the other. I don't think you should. I personally don't think it necessarily needs to align to who's more masculine, who's more feminine. I think that in my, like, I'm trying to think about, especially my relationship. Like we definitely like are a partnership. But I think that sometimes, you know, he can be more of a protector in maybe an emotional sense or even in a physical sense. But also there's going to be times where I'm being the protector a little bit more. I feel like it depends on the certain scenario that we're being put in. I think that. Because of biological differences. A lot of times the male is seen as, or masculine people are seen as more of the protector just because of their innate ability to do that. But I don't think that the protector necessarily needs to be physical. It could be emotional. I think that both can take those parts, but I think it's about finding the balance between both, I guess. Like, in especially in femininity, like being the nurturer, being like, a comfort person, I guess. I think that the masculine person can have those traits as well. I don't think that should be one or the other. I think it's something that kind of maybe should alter in like a wave pattern depending on the situation, like just kind of like parts of a whole, like there's going to be light in the dark, there's going to be dark in light, but in a sense there's going to be masculinity in femininity, but there's also going to be femininity in masculinity with you at some point. It's like it's just finding what fits to that person's, personality identity or just like their relationships function in my opinion.

JB: Yeah. That makes sense. Okay a little pre-question for the next, do you use social media?

SW: Yes. I do often.

JB: Yes. Do you, do you think that has influenced your gender in any way?

SW: I don't know. I, I don't know, I feel like I've been on social media for a long time, but I also don't feel like I have someone who's ever struggled to find their like, gender or feel like correct in that gender. I've always felt pretty comfortable in my gender and who I am as a person. I've noticed that, you know, sometimes I'm in more of a masculine vibe, especially in terms of the way I dress or like some, but most of the time I feel pretty feminine and I don't think, like I said, I honestly feel like I'm pretty oblivious or was really oblivious when I was younger, I don't think and I don't really think that's a bad thing, because I feel like a lot of times that stopped me from getting hurt from like social media or bullying instances, like I truly did not care about anybody else's, like impact on me. It was mostly just how I felt about doing something which worked out great because I was just felt. I feel like that helped me at least. And when I started using social media, I think more of the impact was maybe how people were interacting with my social media or how people would, view it. I have noticed, of course, I feel like this is good to note that when presenting very feminine or very, I don't know, there's certain point where I, I would have posted a little bit more, just like showy, I guess in a way those would get more interactions or something like that, which is like interesting when it's like, okay, you're kind of comparing what these are, but I don't think it really constricted or impacted how I presented or how I felt about myself very much, in terms of gender.

JB: Well, that makes sense with what you've told me so far. So you don't really get. You don't really get any influence from outside sources. So how do you choose how to, like, present yourself or like, express your gender like day to day?

SW: I, I don't even know. It's like, I don't know, it's always hard for me. I'm an apparel design major, but I always struggle to, like, I don't. I'm not one of those people who, like hyper focuses on certain like. Like, I know a lot of people be like, oh, this designer did this, like, isn't that amazing? I'm like, I don't even know who that is. Honestly. Like, if I see something, I'm like, oh, that's cool. Like, if I see a TikTok, I'm like, wow, I really like can make that girl dresses, or I really like the way that they dress or I really like the way that he dress. I'm like, I'm gonna try that. And I just start picking things from my closet. I kind of just, I am really big into fashion person. Not you cannot tell right now, but, I do love fashion, and, I like to piece those things together. I take a lot, like, I am a Pinterest girl. I love Pinterest, so I surf that a lot. So mostly I think I just take in a lot of information, I take a lot of visual information. And then like, I kind of use either the patterns that I see or things that I like. I try to utilize that into my what I wear. And how I present myself, that's kind of how I go about creating my look or like my persona, I guess.

JB: Yeah. So would you say you dress more for style than for comfort, or is it kind of like a mix of both?

SW: Mostly style, less comfort. As much as, like, comfort is amazing. And I utilize, on days like this, I just feel a lot better about myself when I'm wearing something cute, I like to. I just like the way I like things to look aesthetically nice in my, like the way I'm viewing it. And if I wear a nice outfit, I feel better about myself and I feel happy for the day because it's just something I like to do. It brings me joy to piece all the pieces together and then to wear it for the day. And just like, know that I'm looking the way that I want to look, I guess.

JB: This might be a difficult question, but how do you know when something is like aesthetically pleasing to you?

SW: To me, it's just like, whatever I like is gonna, is gonna happen. I don't know, I guess it's like so I'm right now especially I've been I look, I actually always I love color, I actually the item I brought is like a million colors and I love it but I like colors. So sometimes I don't love to wear like black and white or like dull like neutrals. Honestly, a lot of days when I'm not feeling like ready to do the day, I will just grab one of my favorites wraparound skirts that's like the brightest colors, and then pair it with either just a regular plain top and I'll just wear it. And then I know that I'm fine for the day. Like I did't need to put too much effort in, but I still feel like I'm doing okay. Like then other things. I do a lot of trend watching, I guess. Not in the sense of like, I need to know what's up, but it's my job to do a lot of those things. I work in marketing and I work, you know, I'm working on be in the apparel design industry. So it's kind of something that I try to work on, just, being that I deal with media and things that are trend like, but I don't like to just follow what trend because it's trending. I like to like the trend. So, trying to think I really like how right now I've been really taken with the idea of stars. I seen star shapes being the likes a lot more recently in the last like year or two. And now I'm just starting to be like, okay, now I like it. Now I'm going to start using it. It's kind of like it's been popular, it's coming back down. Maybe it'll go back up, I don't know, but I like it now. So now I'm like, okay, I'm going to start incorporating that into certain things I design or certain articles I try to piece together, I guess.

JB: Where-what do you want to do with your degree?

SW: That's a great question. Well, okay, I'm kind of trying to figure that out still, because there's just so many different ways you can go about it. You can be a tech designer. I don't love that idea, but it's what a lot of people do. But personally, I want to be kind of like, in the creative side and less the technical side of things like brainstorming these like apparel ideas or even styling certain individuals or something like that. It's more my speed than doing the technical path, sort of like, how does this piece together, how does it do that? I mean, those are great things to understand when designing, but I like the design part, the design part where it's mostly like you're creatively thinking about it and not the technical aspect of how does this piece together, how are you going to make this piece? How does it go? I like to visually piece it together, and eventually I would like to have my own brand of just my own line. I guess in a way, that's much more in the future. But, you know, that'd be great. Mostly I'm trying to look into like a design, like ten years in the future design director, where it's like running the design process and what goes out to what offices and how that and then the technical people take it and run. But right after college, we're going to see what happens when I apply. But that's kind of the direction I'm trying to go in.

JB: This is a bit of a tangent, but since you're going into this industry, what are your thoughts on like fast fashion and like how you're going to work with that?

SW: I don't really like fast fashion in the sense of I just, I don't know, like I get mass market, like ready to wear stuff. I mean, that's what a lot of most people are going to be wearing stuff from like, I don't even know, I don't shop at, I mostly thrift shop. So it's hard like, Target or something have ready to wear your stuff. And I don't think that you can escape that. But things like Shein, it's like where it really irks me just because of the fact that A, they're ripping off designers who already made that product, but B, there's so much clothing in landfill that I don't understand why we can't utilize that material more. I don't understand why I, we're over, like we're, I feel like people are promoting overconsumption by being like, each thing is like $2. Yeah, it's $2 because A, it's made shit-ily, B, they're not like morally great companies that are making these. There's a lot just there's a lot of production for like, it's just it's not a good thing. I'm not as well versed and I just don't like it. And I just try to avoid things like I can't avoid certain things, like Amazon. I mean, you have to order certain things on Amazon, especially just in our day and age. But like, I won't shop on Shein, like I will avoid that place, like Temu or something like that, just because, like, I don't feel like it's right. But to each your own. They're, that's an individual decision. But I do think the apparel company, like I think the apparel industry is to accept the fact that they need to start being more sustainable and more transparent about their business practices, and from a moral standards, from a sustainability standard of the fact that, like our Earth is being affected and we don't really need to be using certain harmful techniques, especially like people don't have drinking water in the towns near factories because of the fact that their dyes are running into the water. And that's not acceptable because they should have access to drinking water. They should have access to live in a town that they grew up in and they are living in. There's ways to go about that. It might be more expensive, it might be longer. But in the long run of humanity, it's more likely better, for humans, and Earth.

JB: Yeah. Okay. Cool. Thanks for sharing. To get back on track, you mentioned you mentioned your object. So, do you want to go ahead and share that now?

SW: Yes, I only have one, but I have like a million things around my room that I could grab if you want more.

JB: But one is fine.

SW: This is the main one that I. It's kind of big. This is just the dress that I grabbed because I wanted to choose something that was clothing because I love clothing. But this is, I'm pretty sure it's vintage. I'm pretty sure it's like a vintage, little dress. I don't know, I thought it was vintage, so I was like, yes, I got it at the Goodwill and, like, three-oh, gosh. I think three years ago. Wow. That's crazy. I wore this for my graduation pictures in high school. I wear it a lot now, especially in the spring and the summer, just because the fabric is very breathable. It's very sheer. It feels like you're wearing nothing. I like skirts because then I can, like, spread my legs out all over the place. And also, I just like not wearing pants. So, I like to wear things that are breathable and fun. But I really like the low neck cut because I like the way that my chest looks in a top like this and, I feel like it accentuates my body shape more then. And yeah, the material and mainly the color in the pattern is why I love this so much, just because it's really bright and it has a bunch of colors and I just love that, I guess. It gives a 70s look. I'm a big vintage look kind of person.

JB: So yeah, I was gonna say that looks very 70s. And you mentioned you thrift shop a lot. Like why do you find yourself drawn to, like, vintage clothes, I guess?

SW: I don't really know. I've never I've never really understood ever since I was little. I've always liked vintage things. I like old things is probably because my mom is a massive thrifter. I referred to as "the thrift god" because she is like, she could own a thrift store honestly, at this point. But she's-oh, I mean, at first, I really hated thrift shopping because I didn't like the fact that I couldn't get the clothes that other people were getting at school. But then I realized that there's so many better options at thrift store, I hit an age and I was like, wow, wait, I was wrong. This is cool. And now I'm obsessed with this. And so, that was like maybe like 14, 15 maybe, I don't know. But yeah, I don't know. Ever since I was little, I've loved, like, old telephones, just like old cameras. I just like the way they look. I like just the. I don't know what it is. I just like it. I really don't know where that started. It was. I've always been that way since I can remember, when I started liking vintage clothes, though, is like, I think I was around eighth grade going into ninth grade. And at that point I had been very, I had been very hard on myself on the fact of I was really weird in middle school, and so I felt like I need to overcompensate and be like, really normal dressing wise. And so those clothes were really not cute at all. But I would wear certain, like whatever was trendy or popular, I would try to wear those clothing because I knew that I was like, well, I've made it to a spot now where I've left this weird kid look, I can be a normal. And then I was just like, wait, I actually hate all of you people at my school, and I don't really want to dress like this anymore. And then one day I was like, oh wait, I could just actually dress the way I want to. And then I started and people did not really-it was kind of funny because actually there were some people who love the way I dress because I'm dressed really 80s for a while, because I just liked the 80s and the 70s and all that stuff. And then some people really did not like it, which I kind of found funny because I was like, okay, you don't have to like it, but that it's good to know that you don't like it, actually, because I feel like I'm doing something right. If somebody doesn't dislike it, then maybe it's not good enough. I don't know, but like, it's not it's not unique enough. I don't know, I feel I feel a lot of times I've done unique things in the past and people didn't like it, but it was unique enough for them to recognize that it was me and that's what I wanted. So, I welcome the haters. But that eighth grade is really when I started to, like, incorporate into my style because I realized I could do this and where I'm going to shop can utilize that. And it's unique. I didn't want to look like everybody else. I didn't enjoy a lot of the people there. So, I was like, you know, just going to do my own thing and it works. So, that's my, little bit into why I like the vintage. I think it's probably because my mom probably likes vintage stuff and brings it around all the time, too.

JB: Yeah, that's that's cool. You mentioned that you don't really care what people say about you. I really respect you for that. But kind of like, along those lines, when have you felt most at home in your body?

SW: Yeah, I felt like it. Okay. When I was in, I mean, this was just such a rough time for people like. And that was, like, not a good time for me to feel comfortable in my body and everything just because of the fact that I was kind of weird and, and in societal standards here. I mean, that's okay. I actually, I am a weird kid and I'm okay with that, but it's okay, like to be weird. It's cooler to be weird. So I will accept that I am weird and that's fine. But at the time I was not accepting of that. So I was like, no, I have to be normal. Like, I have to abide by these things. And once I started being like, oh, I guess people really don't care, I don't know. I was like, in my mind when, I don't know what happened when I hit 8th - 9th grade, but all of a sudden I was like, why do I care about any of these people's opinions? I think it was my friend group, because at the time, I had such a supportive friend group that I really did not care about anybody at school because I wasn't hanging out with them. I wasn't like having a good time with them. And my parents, especially my father, always instilled, I've always had this sense of, I just always had the sense of like. I don't know. I don't care, I guess, in a way, and especially once I hit like a teenage years, I was like, really couldn't care less about anyone that was there just because I--If you don't like it, that's okay. You can just not say it or just mind your business or like you don't have to like not everybody's going to like everything. And at the same time, it's I just realized that more people care about themselves than they are caring about you. So why are you trying to alter the way that you look when ultimately they're still thinking about how they look for the day? They're not thinking about your outfit the next day. I can promise most people, and if they are they seriously have something going on down, and they need to get that figured out because that's definitely an issue that they should figure out. But, I don't know what I don't like. I think having those friendships and just like having the like, security of like my family loves and cares about me, my friends love and care about me. I really couldn't give a-...care about, anybody who has to say anything. And a lot of times, if people are going to be negative about something, they're more likely insecure. If someone just doesn't like something that's different, but if they're going to bully you or like demean you, then they've got issues they need to work out. So that's not to do with me. That's their thing, I guess. I don't know how to put it. I just like, that's, I don't know.

JB: So when you felt most at home in your body... always?

SW: Oh yes! No, I honestly have been really, really comfortable in my body. I think the most comfortable I felt was, okay, I'm gonna say just out of, like, how happy I was at the time and how free I was, was like my junior year of high school just because I had found this, like this new group of friends. I had gotten a partner, my new, my partner. And like, I had been really just gotten into-really went coasting into my fashion thing and, like, so I was like, really feel myself at that one. And I have started dyeing my bangs every month. So I had like this fun thing that I could change every month. I was like, okay, this month my bangs are going to be pink, or my bangs are going to be purple this month. And I just felt like an it-girl, at that time, I think, I don't know, I just felt like so comfortable and I, I'm very comfortable now. I just think that that was such like a great little period of time that was just so I didn't care about anything at all.

JB: Nice. Yeah. So high school is a good time for you. But I'm wondering it, like, how your college experience has, like, how have you felt with it?

SW: I have loved college a thousand times more than high school, actually. I hated the high school that I went to. I liked the friends that I had in high school, but that came to an end too. So there's always there's always a give and take. I didn't like the actual people at my high school. I actually stopped. I went to community college halfway through, so I really only went to my high school for like two years and like, then I went to community college and mostly was just doing my own stuff for those last two years. Got my associates when I graduated and I came here, and I have had a great time in college is stressful and really fucking hard. So it has its moments where I'm like, why? Why is this this way? But that's more outside circumstances and mostly financial issues like less so personal issues. I felt I felt like in high school, there were a lot of times where you would, at least for me, I would deal with a lot of mean girl behavior, clique behavior, a lot of judgment people. So working through that and then finally getting out of high school and being like, finally, people don't actually care anymore. Like nobody can really. There's no cliques, at least for me, I don't know, I don't think there's cliques. I don't think that I mean, I think that it's possible. There's possibility, but like, it's so big, at least for me, it's big, big at OSU. I feel like there's so many people that, like, really, nobody could care less about the other person and they actually get their education. They're there for them, like I that's what I liked about, college. There has been some people that I know where I'm like, okay, you're bringing back that high school mentality that I don't like, and then I just never talk to them again. And I just leave and I'm like, we're just not good. I'll talk to you if I see you in public and we're-I will be cordial. But I, not surrounding myself with people who just put that energy into judgment and stereotypical beliefs of like. I don't even. I can't even go into that anymore. It's like, just like I've found that I really have loved my roommate here. I've loved the friends that I make here. I've had a lot of great opportunities at OSU that I don't think I would have had otherwise. And I like finding people that have the same passion as me for certain things, like passionate about women in business, passionate about apparel design, things like that. So, I personally have loved college a lot. But I don't know, maybe I'm just a positive person or something, but.

JB: No, I feel like a lot of people do like college. That's why I ask about it. Just because, I know don't, wanna get everyone's opinion. But you told me that you were in a sorority, right? Can you talk about that a little bit?

SW: Yes, yeah, I will specify that I'm in an academic sorority, but it's still a sorority. It's just not the main one to think about, I guess, in a sense. And I chose that for a reason because I personally didn't vibe with the energy of the people who I just don't personally want to be in, like the philanthropic, I don't even know what they're called. The regular sororities that you see, I guess I would say. But the academic one, I'm in a design sorority, so I'm Chi Theta Phi, and I really liked them because it just felt really, really inclusive. I didn't feel like anybody was getting left out. I didn't feel like there was this pressure to be like that type, like that archetype that they're looking for, I guess for a regular sorority. I just felt like there was kind of like an archetype that they were looking for. I felt like this one harnessed creativity, harnessed the passions that you like. In the, I'm in the Collective Greek Council, which is the academic one. So there's like a science one, there's an engineering one, there's a design one, and then there's another one that I, I can't remember right now, but I think it's my math or something. But I liked how those center around your interests kind of. And you could connect with people who have similar interests as you instead of just like. I also did not want to live with a group of girls. I was a big thing that was never, ever, ever going to do because that sounds awful and it just didn't sound like you would be for me. 30 girls in one room. Just, that's too much, for me. And then, yeah, I just felt like, it's really there's a lot of fashion girls in there, so I just, I everyone was really nice when I started my sorority, and I was really, really excited to start it and be with people who have, like, interested in similar things they want to do. And it's been pretty good since then, I guess, for me.

JB: Yeah, I don't know much about the academic sororities. So you say they don't have houses? What is it mostly that you guys do in there?

SW: No, we have our regular- every week we have chapter and, we do a lot of, like, we'll have sisterhood events where we'll get together. Whoever can come will. Well, I know they had a sisterhood where we went to the farmer's market. I, unfortunately, was not able to go that day, but I think they did. I think they went to, like, this market, like by the ocean or something. They did like an ocean day. So we do, like, fun things like that. We are, we had, we have like movie night. We, it's nice because a lot of girls will support each other a lot where it's like, oh, we're having, like, the fashion show this week. Anybody, if you guys want to come, just come. It's going to be fun. And then like, a handful of girls will come and be like, hey, like, we saw you, loved it. All that stuff. Oh my gosh. So sorry. My phone is ringing for some weird reason, it's from Corvallis. And then I feel like we just we have certain things, like philanthropic things. I also think we still do philanthropies and stuff like that. We're currently working on a specific philanthropy for next year, and then. For next term, not next year. We partner, we go to like other sororities, like philanthropies and stuff. There was just, dino trivia for the science sorority. But we do interact a lot with the main sororities. Like we'll have we have Greek Week coming up. We're all. Every Greek life person is doing that like it's a big thing, but in like, so everybody does the it's a week long thing where you raise money and there's a bunch of events that you can do, and it's just kind of to be the most active and just try your best. And you know, when you're on a team of three different frats or sororities and stuff, there's Sing in the spring where, we do like the dancing-singing thing. I don't partake in that, but that's out of my personal choice. But I'm not a good dancer. But, we do lots of fun stuff. But also, there's certain career things that we do, in terms of just, like, supporting each other a lot of, like, because we have such like, interests, it's like, oh, do you want to do the art club? Okay, cool will support you. Go to this. Things like, I found a lot of models for my, like, runway looks from my sorority because they just are so willing and so supportive of, like, my work. And it's just really nice to have that support system in college when you're doing that kind of stuff, I guess.

JB: Yes. You mentioned the like archetype I guess for like the sororities that everyone thinks of when someone says you're in a sorority. How do you think that, like, the expectations differ in the type of sorority that you're in?

SW: I don't-it's very interesting. I feel like from my personal perspective. The main, I don't know, I'm trying to remember what they're called, but, just like the main, like I'm just going to call it, like the philanthropic one. Yeah. I don't think that's the right term, but the, the I just felt like I've met a lot of girls in there that were very judgmental in, like, in a way you could just, while some though, I've met some that are great, really amazing people. Some that's good. You're going to have bad apples though. There's going to be some. And I just personally didn't feel the most comfortable being around thirty of those, like thir- I don't know, just personally, I felt like they're a little more uptight, a little more stereotypical when it comes to like, society's like thin-white-blond-girl, I guess you would say that's just the. But I'm not saying they're all like that. I'm not saying that everybody thinks that. I just think that historically speaking and, societally speaking, those are typically the ones that stand out the most in the ones that, I feel like when you're an outsider especially, definitely just carry myself differently than a lot of the girls that I've seen in the sororities do carry themselves sometimes that I just couldn't really. I didn't think I would fit in very well, and I didn't really want to live with 30 girls. Never sounds great. I've heard horrible stories about that, and I just, doesn't sound like a fun time. Don't want to do it. But the girls that I know from that type of, sorority, they're all really, really nice. But they do have their stories of, like, certain judgy girls. And I think that that's just the case when you put a lot of. I find that people that are going straight into that especially, like right after graduating, are looking for something that's more high school-ish or like something they can kind of grasp on to a little bit. Whereas, like, I found a lot of people in my sorority or sororities like that are a little bit more like, okay, well, I didn't want to join the main sorority because of like, just like, I don't know, a personal reason. I didn't feel like I would fit in there, and come in later being like, okay, I like this hobby. I just kind of appreciate that it's like interest based instead of just like random 30 girls. Like, you don't know how that's going to go. You don't know if they even like anything about each other. And I just there's going to be mean girls to every single thing. But I just, I think that I personally didn't vibe the most with, that those groups just because I don't feel like I fit in the best there, I guess.

JB: I think that makes sense. And I, I do agree with the high school thing, and it's a very, it seems like a very specific type of femininity that they're looking for in those sororities.

SW: So yeah, I definitely can see that. I can definitely see that. Sometimes, I definitely, when you're looking at all of them or like, I know we did this event, it's like the Greek tunnel for like freshmen and like it's really interesting being like because I don't know, I always feel like a little bit of an outsider. I mean were working, I know my sorority, like, leadership, is working really hard on trying to partner more with other sororities and other frats to try not be as much of outsiders, because I know sometimes I think that's how they think of us, even though we are an established sorority. Like, I just think that because we're not the stereotypical like one that's been around for like 100 years, which has its own complications, that I think that they kind of think of us as outsiders sometimes, even though we're are actively working on that. But I think it's just evident when your kind of like in a group. But I've had, I have had good experiences with anyone, like, from. I've had good experiences with someone from most sororities, just I've also had some bad times with some people. That's just how life is, I guess.

JB: I'd agree. Alright. Well, I think we've gone through all my questions. Is there anything else you wanted to add or anything you felt we didn't cover?

SW: I don't know. I'm not exactly sure, honestly, I think that it's I, I really liked the topic of conversation today. I thought it was very fun and interesting. So, thank you for letting me be here and do that. I think that one thing that's really, I think that I really liked noting on was just having that difference of like mother, father, like kind of like parental role switch up. Just because I feel like that has impacted me so much in comparison to how I see a lot of people who are raised in the opposite way, like how they've grown up to think. It's very, I think that is really an interesting topic of conversation for me, just because I can see it's so opposite from the other side, which is so abnormal for a lot of people. But yeah, other than that it was just fun talking, so.

JB: Yeah, it was fun. Well, thank you for doing this for me.