Lilith Wiksten Oral History Interview, March 10, 2024

JOZIE BILLINGS: Okay. Today is March 10th, 2024. I'm here with Lilith. Lilith Wikstein? Wiksten?

LILITH WIKSTEN: Yeah.

JB: Wiksten. Over Zoom. And we are both- well, I'm in Corvallis, Oregon. Where are you at today?

LW: Yep, Corvallis.

JB: Corvallis, cool. My name is Jozie Billings, and we are doing this interview as a part of my honors thesis project, Beyond the Binary. Welcome to the interview. Thank you for coming. All right, so just, start with the basics. Can you reiterate for the interview how you identify what your pronouns are?

LW: I Identify with she/her. I don't know if that's proper, proper grammar, I don't know. But, yeah, I consider myself a girl. She/her.

JB: Okay. So do you want to start? Let's start it. Okay. Let's start at the beginning. Can you talk to me a bit about your childhood, maybe, like, some of the activities you're involved in, any, like, formative experiences you remember for your gender? Anything like that?

LW: Oh, yeah. I mean, when I was younger, I. Well, I presume, and I'm totally fine with it, but, like. I assume you're okay with me going, kind of, like, deep and dark, you know, like.

JB: Whatever you're comfortable with, I think.

LW: Okay. Just making sure I don't want to, like, catch you off guard or anything. But. Yeah. So when I was a little kid I was pretty feminine, you know, I liked a lot of girly things and that sort of stuff. But my father, well, actually, it was my step grandfather, but that's like a weird, complicated, you know, term. So we'll just say father, you know, because he was, for all intents and purposes. I mean, he, like, was very abusive. And he'd hit me and stuff. He'd call me, like, the f-slur and that sort of thing. Really despised the idea of me being feminine in anyway, so that was, you know, an existential terror for me. It really was. There's no other way to put it. And growing up, I started to repress my femininity, as you could probably guess. You know, even when they got divorced by the time I was, like, ten-ish, he was completely out of my life, you know, for the most part. And I lived with my grandmother. Well, Mom, I'll just call her Mom, out in the middle of nowhere. Moved the country in north Idaho, actually. Yeah. And, it was nice for a while, but that still lasted with me.

So, I kept suppressing my femininity. And as puberty started to roll around, I was sort of horrified with, you know, the changes I was going through. But at the same time, I, I was really hoping that, like, eventually, eventually, I would enjoy it. Eventually I'd like it. The problem isn't that I'm feminine. The problem is that I'm not masculine enough, and once I get to that point, I'm going to be happy, you know? And that was not, that was not true. But I actually, ironically, I really wanted to grow a beard. I really wanted to get a deeper voice. You know, I really wanted all these things because I just thought, like, once I got there, I would feel happy. And I was trying to be a, like, tough, masculine guy, but, you know, I was called, like, in middle of nowhere, like redneck North Idaho, like, again, like I was, call it like the f-slur and stuff, you know, I was just like, this is really, really rough when I was younger, like elementary school and then, like, it was really, really bad in elementary school. Middle school, I actually went to one school, and then I had to leave because I got bullied so bad. And someone like, even, like, knocked me out. I like, they like bashed my head up against a wall. Yeah no, that wasn't a very good place, for, for queer folks.

Yeah. And then, yeah, middle school. I sort of started to retreat into myself a bit, and I wasn't really an outcast for most of middle school. Once I moved to this new school, I was just more of, like, an outsider, you know, it was more by choice. But I got, like, tough. And then. Here. You're going to this, I always like, this is a fun party trick. This is my, like, biological or, well, I know, yeah, this is how I sound. The like before I've done any, like, voice training or anything. It actually sounds kind of weird because I haven't talked this way in a while. But I have a really deep voice, you know? And anyway, my voice dropped. Right. And with that. And with me, like, developing this sort of, like, tough guy, like outsider persona. By high school, I had become very tough, and I had become like, you know, dark and edgy and shit, you know, and I thought I was like, cool. Or, you know, well, I wouldn't say I thought I was. I just wanted to. Give the illusion. And I started to play that character very well, to the point where people were becoming intimidated by me. And there was a short period there, like freshman year, because I had been so used to defending my self against bullies that I, like, overcorrected, and I was a bully for a tiny bit, you know? But, yeah, I always had lots and lots of female friends, you know, they were all girls, right? But, I always, like, told myself I was like, no, I don't need to, like, it's okay. Like, I'm not gay or anything, you know? You know, I'm definitely a guy, for sure. Guy... Yeah, and it was, yeah, it was just it was very goofy. And I remember doing, like, things, and I did this for quite a while where, like, I would feel the need to hit on them. You know, I wouldn't need to, like, be, accepted. Right? That wasn't the point. I just had to do it so I could, like, prove that I was a dude, right. And yeah, like, all my, but like, 99% of all my friends were girls, right? But eventually people started to think that they were like "Oh, he just does get all the chicks, man," you know? Because I'm always, like, hanging out with these girls. And, I sort of like, I let people sort of think that.

But then, yeah, I got, like, popular-y by the end of high school. At least among, like, certain circles, right? And just in general, everybody thought of me as this, like, extremely like tough, like masculine, like hyper-masculine dude. And at that point, I was having, you know, like, while I was having, like, lots of sex with, like, girls and stuff, or at least like, dating them. And then I just, you know, do it a few times, that kind of thing. Just to, like, prove that I was like, yes, I, I enjoy this. I want to do this. I'm a red-blooded American male, you know? But then, like my freshman year, when I came here last year at OSU, like, well like the end of senior year, I'd say throughout that summer. And then the beginning of freshman year, I was playing this character and been playing this character so well for so long that, like, I realized I still wasn't happy. And like, even though everybody thinks that I am this person that I've been trying to be for so long. I've made it right, but I'm not happy. And that's when I started to sort of cave. Especially when I met my boyfriend. Who, he's a trans guy, and I met him here at OSU freshman year, and. Yeah. Yeah, I can go more in depth on anything you want. You can ask more questions if you'd like.

JB: I don't know. Let me think for a second.

LW: Okay. Yeah.

JB: I'm also from Idaho, but I'm from southern Idaho. Oh, I can't say my experience was the same, but for different reasons. Yeah. So, I mean, you talked about wanting to fit this, like, masculine stereotype, right? But did you have any, like, role models, I guess. Not like, I don't know, just in general because, like, it's not like you really wanted to be masculine. But if you had any like feminine role models or anything like that.

LW: Well, I was for the most part raised by women. You know, after my horrible, abusive dad, you know, and I was, like, beaten and stuff, you know? I mean, worse than that. After, like, he was out of my life. I was mostly raised by women. But my mother, parentheses grandmother. You know, she had, she, like, met some guys. And she's with one now, Sid Clark. And they've been together for years, and he's a wonderful guy. But I always rejected, like, masculine figures, you know, like, I always just, like, never really, really took to them. I never really took to any sort of parental, role model in general, but like, I outright rejected masculine ones and not even in, like, a harsh way. You know, I never once was like, "you're not my dad," you know, like, that never happened. Like, we both really like each other, you know? But I don't think of him as my dad in any way. And there was actually quite a few, like, male role model figures who tried to be something like, you know, well, like, potential male role model figures, who, like, tried to be that for me. Very good ones, you know, cool, wonderful people. But, like yeah, it's, I just never took to it. When it comes to just sort of, like, broader role models, not necessarily something that's, like, more parental. No. Just not really. I don't really, I've never really had any. Yeah. No.

JB: Well, you mentioned that your boyfriend, like, I don't know, you mentioned meeting him was an important experience. Can you talk about that?

LW: Oh, yeah. So, yeah, freshman year. I meet him, and. Yeah, he was just, he was really, really sweet. He's a trans guy. And, yeah, I remember that kind of like, that little shit, like, messed with my head, you know? Because at the point- at that point, I not only like, didn't, like, admit I was a girl, I thought I was straight, you know, like, I was like. I'm into girls. [Laughter from Lilith's background] He's actually he's, he's, he's, yeah, we live together. But. Yeah, I thought I was, I thought I was straight. Or at least I wanted to be, you know, and, where was I? Sorry. We met. Yeah. And we started talking and stuff, and as, like, horrible as it is, sort of like what subconsciously I told myself was, like, well, you know, like, he uses he/they pronouns, you know, and I was like, well, he, he's like a little bit not a guy. So like, you know, and also like, he doesn't have a, you know, down there. So like, you know, like, I'm not, I'm not really gay or anything. And like, again, like, as horrible as that is - and I feel bad about it - I think if it wasn't like that precise combination, I wouldn't have allowed myself to sort of, like, slip into this and, like, start, like trying little things. But then eventually we start talking, and I just like, I mean, I fell, like, head over heels for him. I mean, I just went like crazy for him. And, yeah. So, I guess in terms of, like a role model, like later in life, you know, more recently. A role model is kind of a weird word to use for him. But. He has genuinely-I mean, I couldn't have transitioned without him. He's been incredibly supportive. He's, like, held my hand. And also, just like the bravery of seeing, like a trans person that has, like, overcome stuff that he has and that kind of stuff and, like, realizing it's okay and that sort of thing is wild because I don't, I was never like consciously homophobic or transphobic or anything. Which, coming from where I come from is impressive in its own right. But like, I clearly was, you know, and even now, as strange as it is, because I'm doing the exact same thing, like, I have so much internalized transphobia that, like walking around Corvallis or something, when I see someone that is like a biological male, like me in a dress just for a split second, something in the back of my head is like, whoa! You know? And then I'm like, look down, and I'm like, oh, you know, doing the same thing. But yeah, it's really deeply ingrained. And seeing how he was able to, yeah, like getting to know him and getting to like, understand him and everything. Was just, it was really, really cool. And that helped me a lot.

JB: Yeah. And, so you mentioned how you're, like, playing this role throughout your childhood and like, into, like, high school, but then senior year, you kind of like, realized that. And, so then you moved to Corvallis. And is that when your gender exploration process kind of began?

LW: Yeah, I would say it just. Just a hair began, when I met him, you know, and we sort of talking and that kind of thing and...yeah, it's. Yeah, it's just like very, very, very slowly, you know, slipped into it started like being okay with doing some feminine things. And I mean, I'm talking about, like, at this point it was feminine things, but only to what, like, a red-blooded American male like, rural American would think it's a feminine thing. Like, you know, self-care in any way, like moisturizing your face, you know, like that kind of thing, like that, to me, was like very valid. And I remember when my boyfriend was like, you want to do face masks? And I was like [makes a questioning face], you know, on the inside I'm like, yes! Please, God, you know, like, that sounds amazing! Yeah. And also, just a side note, something I've, I've learned and this is, again, never something that I like, consciously thought, but I clearly believed, at least on some level, is that, you know, like, just because I'm feminine, right? Just because I love this doesn't mean that I'm like, you know, like, doesn't mean I can't, like, split wood. It doesn't mean that I can't change a tire. Like, it doesn't mean that I'm like, suddenly, like, weaker or less than. Which is like a very, like, just sort of like sexist. And, you know, all these -ists thing that, like, really informs our thinking and that sort of thing, again, especially if you're from somewhere like I am. So, yeah. Sorry, did I answer your question, I forgot, I kind of forgot what it was.

JB: I mean, kind of. I asked when you started it, but, like, you could talk a little bit more about, like, some of the types of things you did as you started to explore your gender.

LW: Yeah, okay. Yeah, I think that's what I was. Yeah. So the big one and this is my object or objects. I thought I might, come up with something that was more... At first I was like, oh, I'll come up with something more like symbolic and clever or whatever, but. Yeah, the biggest thing, the thing that was like, probably the tipping point, is that, I, he offered because I was, like, cold or something, and I was over at his place. This is before we had an apartment, you know, and I didn't have, like, enough clothes. He was like, you can wear some of my old leggings. You know, because, again, like, he's trans, he has some old leggings and stuff. And I was like, yeah, you know? And I was like, oh. Okay. Yeah, sure. I, I guess I can, and to me I was like rationalizing. I was like, yeah, basically like, you know, long john thermals that I wear in the winter time, you know, there's nothing, it's not weird. It's fine, you know, I can wear leggings. And yeah, they're they're not really. But yeah. I have they're, they're the leggings. They're the OG leggings that I wore of his are my object slash objects. And yeah, like once I started to wear those and I started to feel like feminine and stuff, just like a tiny bit, I was like, okay. Shit. All right. You know, and like freaked me out. And I was kind of like, whatever. Right. But then I like very, very, very slowly started trying more and more things, but it became sort of like exponential. So, it would go from like trying on leggings and then in like three months I might like shave my legs maybe, something like that to it being like, oh my God, I'm terrified to wear women's jeans, you know, but I'm going to do it today. And then I do it. And I feel like crazy for just wearing women's jeans in public. Like, not even very tight ones. Right? To, like, right after the first day I do that, I'll be like. It's terrifying, but maybe I'll wear a tiny bit of mascara. Maybe I'll be brave enough to wear that out of the house in like two weeks. To me, doing it in like two days after and then like, I just couldn't help myself and I, like, threw myself into it. And it was, it was really fun. And it was a, it was the discovery of gender euphoria, which I'd heard about dysphoria. Like I knew, I don't know if I knew all about it, but, like, I knew plenty about it, you know? But I didn't realize, like, euphoria. Like, I never really heard people talk about that. And it really is addicting. And when I first did shave my legs, and I, like, got a shower and then I put some lotion on, then that felt really incredible. As silly as it is, that was like one of the, that was legitimately one of the best feelings of my life because I'd been thinking about this for so long. Yeah. I was like, well, I've done it. I've actually done it. And I, you know, I couldn't help myself anymore. Yeah.

JB: Yeah. That's nice. So, you mentioned your leggings was one of your objects. You want to talk about the other ones right now?

LW: The other ones?

JB: Oh. You just said "object/objects," I don't know.

LW: Oh, yeah. By "objects" I meant just because there was more than one leggings.

JB: Oh, okay. Oh, no no, no, I mean, some people did bring more, but I'm sorry, I just I just misinterpreted what you said. Oh, no, you're fine you're fine.

LW: Yeah. You're good.

JB: Okay, so, you mentioned that the shaving legs was pretty euphoric to you. I have been asking people what is euphoric but also dysphoric to you. So can you talk about that a little bit?

LW: Oh, yeah. So we can talk about, like, makeup. Like I just, frantically did this morning. You know. Every day I have to wake up, and, like, shave as quick as I can. I mean, if I have more time, of course I'm going to use more time. But because I've been, like, I haven't been sleeping very well recently, I tend to wake up when my alarm goes off, and then I realize it would be better that I just, like, sleep for another half hour or so. Because, like, I'm going to feel better for the rest of the day with more sleep in me, obviously. So, yeah. I have to shave. And then I got to put on, like, all my makeup, and I have to time this right alongside doing all the other normal getting ready things, like brushing my teeth, etc. Making sure I have everything in my backpack ready to go for the day, making sure everything's charged, and then I have to, like, you know, get dressed. And that can be a really, like, euphoric or dysphoric thing, too. Because, like, I can wear this thing and I'm like, oh, can I wear this? Do I feel like, confident enough to wear this? Is this too feminine? Is this not feminine enough? Will this, like, hide my lack of breasts very well? Is this going to, like, really, really emphasize something? You know, that kind of stuff. So in the mornings, it is sadly usually dysphoric. But it can still be really euphoric. And I would say like it's very intense, like 50-50 when I put on makeup and when I shave if it's euphoric or dysphoric, because sometimes it feels like really wonderful, sometimes not so much. And it really just kind of depends on my mindset on and like, you know, how stressed I am, like how quickly I'm trying to get out of the door. Yeah. But I will say, you know, like, I think just on the sort of like day to day level, what haunts me like more than anything with dysphoria, has got to be shaving. Like, my stubble drives me insane. It is like, it is. It's absolutely the worst. Yeah, I, I despise it. Yeah. Another thing is also my voice. I've done a lot of voice training, and hopefully I'm in sort of like an androgynous zone right now. Just like using, like, YouTube videos and stuff. I mean, I like a lot, like, hours and hours and hours and hours and hours of training. These, you know, going from, like, down here. Yeah. Like, it's, it's very hard. So that's something that can haunt me. Another thing is that means I have or, like, had such a distinctive voice. And when I talk for, talk with this a bit, it sounds a little less like, awkward, you know, and it's a very, like, sort of smooth radio voice. And people love it, like, it's very, very, very, unique. And it's something that, like, distinguished me. It was almost like a trademark. I mean, people constantly would tell me, like, you got to go into radio. You got to, like, do this. You got to do that. In high school, even though I wasn't good, at it at all, they begged me to do, like, the football announcements. Yeah, even. But I didn't like football, so. Like. And they never taught me. They said that they kept telling me they would teach me. But they never did. They never taught me, like, how the game really worked. So I was just up there and I was basically rambling, I'd be like: and they're going.. and they're like uh... they stopped again...okay. And that was that. Yeah. It was. Anyway, I'm getting off track.

But yeah, so when people talk about my voice and how cool it was, that's not such a consistent day to day thing. But when that does happen, it really, really, really hurts. You know, when people are like, man, you had such a cool voice. That, that stings. Yeah. And then, of course, just like clothes not fitting right or something. I really like wearing, like the, like, high waisted pants, which something I've noticed, about women's clothes, which I think is hilarious, is they never seem to be the right size, like women's sizings are like everything but the right size. They're all, like, too big or too small, like, compared to men's clothes. They're like, oh, this is oversize and baggy or like, these are tight. And also the pants go up to like here, you know, on your like knee. It's, it's so, so weird and awkward. I love it, but, I'm not used to it. So, like, I wear these high waisted pants. And just the other day we were hiking and, like, I remember just thinking after this really, these really, this, like, sweet lesbian couple. I think there are lesbians, they might've been friends. It's not important. But. Yeah, they, they took a picture of us and then, like, my boyfriend-with our phone, you know-my boyfriend, like, showed me. And I remember, just like, as we kept walking, I kept thinking, like, do I just look like some, like, weird dude who just has, like, his pants, like, hiked up, like, weirdly high, you know? And yeah, it's that that bothers me. I feel like there's, like, little things where people will be like, "Ooh. What's that?" It's interesting because a big fear of mine, a way bigger than what guys think is girls rejecting me. Is girls being like, oh, you're not really one of us. Which is, I mean, the complete opposite of what has happened way before I transitioned, like, a lot of my friends were like lesbians, for some reason, like, I don't know what. And they were like, "you're an honorary lesbian." So they tell me, you know, you know, I'd be like, "I don't know why you're saying that, you know, we're friends, but, yeah." But, yeah, like, that's a big fear of mine is being, like, rejected by girls, that sort of thing. I don't care too much what guys think for the most part. Because the only thing that, like, I would like, although it would be, like, extremely euphoric, you know, is to have, like, some guy, like, hit on me or something and like, ooh, you know, but ultimately, I don't care too much what guys think because, like, I already got a guy, he's pretty great. So.

JB: Yeah. That was. That was a lot of dysphoric things, I-. Do you have any other euphoric things to like...I don't know, it's okay! I mean, it's okay if you don't, but just to-

LW: Yeah, yeah. Euphoric things. Yeah. I think just, like hanging out with, like, girls, and, like, talking about girl things and, like, really like here it is again, most of my friends are girls or just hung out with girls and stuff, but there's always, like, a barrier that I put up even when they would like to ask me because, you know, like once, once people got to know me, like, they could kind of sense, even if I wasn't self-aware of it. And they'd be like, you want to go shopping with us? Do you want to do this? Or like they would like, sometimes, like once a year, a friend of mine she'd be like, "do you want to try on make up?" And then I'd be like. "What? No. What the f-. What do you, what? What? No." And yeah, I would, like, freak out. But yeah, just. Like, actually allowing myself to do all those things feels really wonderful. So, I think, like, connecting with other girls and certain stuff, feels really nice. A friend of mine, possibly today, if we have enough time. But we're going to do other stuff is going to take me bra shopping, which is something she wants to do, because I've been on HRT and I have enough where like, you know, I start to feel them, like, when I go downstairs and stuff. Yeah. And that's, it's, it's really nuts.

JB: And, sort of related to this. When have you felt most at home in your body?

LW: I think pretty much every day I feel like slightly more at home, with, you know, like, you know, just like you developing like breasts, right? And that's a big thing. My skin is already softer. Which something that a lot of, I think cis people aren't really, at least like guys aren't really, like, aware of. They don't think about. But a huge, like, gender marker is like skin texture, you know, like men just have, like, much rougher skin. Even like my boyfriend, like, as he's, like, on testosterone. I notice his skin is, like, roughening. And, yeah, like, my skin is softer. That feels really good. And then, like, I'm already noticing, like, some redistribution of fat. Which is nice. I actually have very, like, feminine legs, I'd say from, like, the waist down. You know, when I'm wearing, like, a gaff and stuff, I actually look pretty passing. You know, that's a very limited area, I realize, but yeah. So that's nice. And. Yeah, just every day with HRT, like, it really does make a difference and it really is making me feel better. Also, my hair is getting slightly longer. Today, I still wear this, like, all the time because, not only is my hair, like, still pretty short, but, like, I have a horrible hairline. It's the worst. It's like, far back, you know? So I've got to get, like, bangs.

But, yeah. I'm, it's, it's, it's very nice. Definitely-my boyfriend's being goofy-definitely something that - I don't think this is TMI because we're like, talking about, like, you know, deep and dark stuff - but something that's like, just isn't, like, dark, but like, being able to, like, see myself, you know, naked, without any makeup on or anything is a really, really wonderful thing. To be able to see myself that way and not feel like immediate shock and horror. Because my entire life, I've always felt very strange in my body. Every time I've walked past a mirror, like I always, I never recognized it as myself. I never recognize my voice as myself. It's all been very surreal, and I realize, you know, it's gender dysphoria. But, yeah, like, without any without, like, clothes without make up or anything. Just, naked like that, that's a really wonderful feeling. Yeah. Whatchamacallit, l there's one more thing I was going to quick say. Oh, yeah. With seeing myself in the mirror and that kind of thing kind of going off of that. An interesting detail is I have a very strong, internal monologue, you know, I think in, like, full sentences, I am a psych major, and this is something I'm really fascinated with. You know, you know, I'm simplifying this stuff a bit, but, you know, like, internal monologue, like the idea that, like, some of us think more in terms of, like, full sentences, you have kind of like an ongoing monologue versus others don't really have, like, as concrete, of, you know, they don't thinking in like, you know, like, yeah, you get the point. Mine has always been like the voice I've heard in my head has always been a feminine voice. Which I think is interesting. I don't think I've met any other trans person, who's said that, but, yeah, it's always been, like, very distinctly a woman's voice. Which kind of freaked me out for a while. I even tried to, as bizarre as it is for a while, like, listen to recordings of my voice and that kind of thing and tried to, like, force myself to think in the voice of my, you know, this voice. Which is I don't know how to explain it, but like, I just tried to, I was like, no, I can. And then I would like, think something. And then I would hear like the voice of my head, of my thoughts. And then I'd be like, no, don't think that way. Make it sound that way. It's it's hard to explain. It's weird, but, yeah.

JB: Yeah, that is-we're going to, okay, we're going to get to OSU stuff in a second. But before we got over there, I wanted to like loop back around and ask you, because like you, you lived in northern Idaho and that wasn't really like a safe space for trans people. Did you ever, like, turn to, like, online spaces to try to find community like that?

LW: No? I never I was never really a very online person. I mean, like, even video games, right? Like, I never really played those online, but. Well, that's because I didn't have internet. Like, I didn't really have proper internet because I lived in the middle of nowhere. Like, I lived in, like, the sticks, you know, way out in the mountains, deep in the woods. Yeah. So, yeah, there wasn't really, trans community out there, of course. And, yeah, I can't say I've really ever turned to online stuff. My mother has always been like, left wing for the most part. You know, she's like a Democrat. You know, she's not, like, leftist or anything. So, she's not super extreme. She's like a, "I like Biden" type person. You know, she's always been very supportive of trans people. And actually, I'm, good family friends with, I believe one of the first people to have gender reassignment surgery in the world. Johanna Clarke, who's a really, really cool and wonderful person, close family friends, known her for a long time. She was the closest thing I ever had to like community. Of course, it's one person that's a family friend, so it's not really like community-community. But, yeah, sorry, I'm getting off topic. Long story short, no, I didn't really spend too long on online spaces.

JB: It's fine if you go off topic, you know, it's just meant to, like, prompt you to talk about stuff. That's cool that you knew her. It's really interesting. All right, so then you moved to, Corvallis for school, right? And so, what has your experience been like at OSU as a whole?

LW: For the most part. Really wonderful. Yeah, I'll. I'll start with that. I mean, like coming here, in such a way, just like, for me, at least, incredibly diverse place. And everything is wonderful. Really wonderful. It was sort of overwhelming now because a bunch of, like, weird biases and stuff that I didn't realize I had, like, started to make themselves known. I started to realize that, or not even necessarily biases like, it wasn't just like, it wasn't like, like a deep seeded, like hatred of, you know, it was just like fear and not understanding and like, stereotypes. I remember getting to know some dudes, and I was like, yeah. Do you like, I'm a tough guy. And everybody's like, oh, you are a tough guy, man. Lots of people thought that, I was even in a frat for-briefly. But that's another story. But yeah, like. I got to know some. And then they mentioned, like, that they were gay, you know, and these are like, some, like, the most manly dudes. And I think it's very funny when conservatives, you know, they think that, like, all gay men, are like, [in a nasally voice] "hello sailor." You know, like, it's very funny. A lot of them are like, the most, like, hyper-masculine dudes you've ever met. And yeah, like, I was talking with them, and I was like, "you're gay? My God, you know, I didn't realize. That's-you can be like that, you can be?" And like, I never like, I knew that they were like that. I knew that there were bears, right. And I knew that that was a thing you could be and everything, logically. But, like, I didn't, I didn't believe it. I wasn't like, I didn't consciously. I clearly didn't, like, actually believe that. Yeah. So that's just to give you, like, a taste. Oh, another thing that I always tell people because it's wild. I mean, people talk about how, like, white Corvallis is, and Oregon is, I'm like, what are you talking about? Where in Idaho? You said you're like, from southern Idaho or are you?

JB: Yeah, Southeastern.

LW: Okay. Yeah.

JB: Idaho Falls.

LW: Was your town whiter?

JB: Yeah, oh, yeah, I know I hear people talk about how white it is here, and I'm like, it's like nothing compared to where I'm from. Yeah, yeah.

LW: Yeah. Actually, Kootenai County, my home county, is where the modern-day Aryan Nations were started. The modern American neo-Nazi movement. Yeah. We're Jewish too. Which is crazy. Yeah. But no, like, I came here. And I was like, wow. You know, there's people like speaking Spanish and, like, Chinese and, like, all these languages and stuff, and it's really cool. Like, I don't remember talking to a black person until I was 15. And I remember when it happened, like, it's weird that I remember my age, you know? Yeah. And it was. Just a pretty wonderful, accepting place for the most part. Yeah. So, I guess, do you have any questions or anything with that before I get to, like, the other side of it?

JB: What is the other side?

LW: The other side is just, like my not so good experiences here.

JB: I'm curious about the frat. I don't know if that's a good side or a bad side.

LW: You could ask about the frat. You're all good. So. Well, do you know what, like, the griddy dance move is?

JB: Yeah.

LW: Yeah. So I'm in. EOP, educational opportunities program. There's, like, a bunch of stuff, like, you know, underprivileged, like, whatever, you know, etc., etc.. I'm, I'm also autistic. I think that's probably the main reason why I was able to get in there. Really wonderful group. We came a week early, and we were in room 100, I think it was of the LINC, which is like, you know, that giant circle or room, stage in the center, right? Yeah. And we were with, like, LSAMP and TRIO and like a bunch of these groups. And the room was completely packed, like to the gills. And, yeah, this was like freshman year again, a week early. And this guy was like, "who wants to do a room wide like icebreaker?" We were going to do, like, a huge icebreaker. And like, the first one was this guy was like. "Who wants to do the griddy for a $20 gift certificate to the Beaver store?" And I didn't care. I had I did not care at all. But nobody would do it. Everybody was too scared. And I've always like, I've never really had like, a fear, at least for a long time of public speaking or anything. So, it just sort of pissed me off that nobody else would do it. And I went up there and I didn't know how to griddy-I still don't know how to griddy-and I did the worst griddy ever. But, like, everybody knew it was a joke. I was being silly. I even won, even though other people did it, like, objectively good, just because I was the most entertaining. And I got extremely famous on Snapchat. Like my, my class story on Snapchat and just in general among my class. And I got known as "The Griddy Kid." And, yeah, like, it was crazy. People, like, I was walking around and girls were coming up to me and they were like, "oh my God, oh my God, it's the Griddy Kid! Oh my God, would you take a picture with me?" And I'm like. "Uh, yeah." And they'd like, give me a kiss. And then they take a picture. And then there was like, yeah. And that would happen. Like I couldn't walk like 15ft somewhere on campus without that happening. And I didn't even have, like, the OSU story on Snapchat, and I had barely used Snapchat. I got it to communicate with, like, one friend, but then I got it, and I, like, I got sucked into it because this really appealed to my, like, masculine ego. Right? And then my buddy is like, we got to go to this frat, bro. We got to go to this frat, and I, I don't I've never really liked groups, you know, like too much of a history of getting rejected from them. Right. So, I didn't really want to join a frat, but this one frat, Sigma Nu, was like, oh, you're so cool. Like. "We're not like the other girls of frats," you know. That's how they kind of, like, billed themselves. And I went, you know, and they kept inviting me back, and I was like, they're kind of, they're kind of neat. They're smaller, kind of more selective frat. And like, they gave me lots of alcohol and stuff and I'm like, oh, yeah, you know, lots of parties. And they were like, "oh, you got to post this stuff, Griddy Kid. You got to do this for us, Griddy Kid." And I'm like, okay, you know, like, then they like, we're like, do you want to join the frat? And I was like, I don't know if I do. And they were like, we will even pay for your dues. This one guy said that he would use a scholarship. Yeah. And he even showed me, like, the email, that he wrote to the people he was getting the scholarship from saying that, like he was going. He, like, asked them if he could use it. I don't know. That might have even been, like, faked, as you'll see with this story. I, I can see your expression. It's, it's a wild story.

So, anyway. And this is just the SparkNotes version, right? But yeah, they start like. Yeah, they're like, you got to do this, you know, you like, keep posting this Griddy Kid. Griddy Kid. And eventually I'm like, you know, I'll trust them. I'll trust this. And I like, I've talked to you about already, you know, I've never really had, like, a male role model. I've never really had, like, a big, like, male space. Like, I've never been truly accepted into that. Even when, like, I got cool and popular, and a bunch of guys, like, invited me in, you know, I rejected it. I just was too suspicious. But I was also worried going into college, I had been such a, like, sort of, like, edgy, like, outsider kind of dude, you know, that I wanted to be more social, and I thought that it would be. I at least told myself that, like, this is the healthy thing to join this frat and, like, be social and like, create like, have a group, right? You know, and that, that didn't work out. So then like, we were talking, right. And then, yeah, they like, say, join. I hesitantly join, but after I like, signed the thing saying I would join, I like really started to try and commit and I started to actually care a bit about the frat. And then after, the initiation ceremony, like, literally right after the initiation ceremony, they kicked me out of the frat, which I have no idea why they. Yeah. Right. Right. Like, why would they do it before? So, I have a bunch of stuff, on them, like, you know, I can talk about, like, their initiation ceremony and stuff. But the reason why was, quote, because I made them uncomfortable. And by uncomfortable, when I was drinking, which I did drink heavily. And that is like an issue. I, I understand that, but it's a frat, so, like, I don't it's not that wild that I did that. I talked about my mental health, basically, and I talked about trauma and stuff. And I wasn't supposed to do that because that [air quotes] brought down the vibe, you know? Yeah. And that really, I really hurt me and really and really screwed me up. So that's basically that's the story of the frat.

JB: Yeah. Wow. That's that's really crazy that they-

LW: Yeah, it is, it is wild.

JB: What year was this?

LW: This is freshman year. This is the first term of freshman year. All of these things happened like, within like a very short period of time. Like meeting my boyfriend, the Griddy Kid thing, you know, becoming famous and then, like, joining the frat, because it was like, just after Thanksgiving. It was like. I mean, just before Thanksgiving break that me and him met and, like, pretty quickly got together. Yeah.

JB: But like, what year was it, like 2021 or?

LW: And what was like, 2022? I think. Yeah, I think 2022

JB: Interesting. I've. I mean, I'm not on the Snapchat class story or anything. So, I didn't see anything about it, but I've been here since 2020, so I was like that Griddy Kid thing is crazy. Yeah. Okay. So, you mentioned that there was a bad side to all this. Do you want to talk about that now?

LW: Yeah. So "bad side" to be clear, we're talking about like, like how I felt, accepted/rejected by, okay.

JB: Like, at OSU or is this just in general?

LW: Yeah. At OSU. So here at OSU. Oh hold on, I'm going to quickly plug in my computer, it's losing battery kind of fast. Okay. So, and this is a very recent thing. I tried to set up a Trans-support group thing. I elaborate on that more in a second here at OSU, for trans and non-binary folks. And, well, that, that didn't really go so well. Yeah. I was talking with people at the Pride Center and that kind of stuff about it. Well, I'll start from the beginning. I was talking with my therapist, Ed. He's at the Pride Center a lot. Wonderful. He really helped me figure out myself. Really, really great, dude. And he was talking about, like, some stuff that, like, maybe the trans support groups like that could be set up. Would be set up soon. And I mentioned it to him, and he was just like, you could set one up. And I was like, I can do that! Look at me, you know? So I just went over to the people at the front desk and I asked, hey, like, do I, can I, what would I have to do to set one of these up? As he said I should. And they were like, oh, you should talk to Cindy, the director. And I was like, okay, so I did that. And then I started talking with Cindy, the director, and some of the counselors there and stuff. And very quickly they were sort of like, oh. Oh, yeah, you got to do this. Okay. You should do this. And then they sort of suggested, the therapist theAnd then they sort of suggested the therapists there, Ed and Laena-I love them, they're great people, but it was just kind of confusing and everything. They were like, oh, well, you know, maybe it should be more of a student organization. It should probably be more student led. And I was trying to be, as I've transitioned and stuff be more like, in my mind, humble, and not want to do what I do so much but sort of follow other people's lead. Because I felt I always had to be in charge. That was part of my masculine ego to be in control, to be in charge. But, I thought I should trust them, but that meant I was kind of going in a bunch of different directions because a bunch of different people were telling me, to do, I should do different things. Basically, what we came up with is we would use the upcoming trans resource fair, which was supposed to happen, Friday, a week or two ago, you know, but it was canceled. We were going to use that in order to get a bunch of members together, so that we could vote on what specifically this would look like, if it would be something that would model more like, Lesbi-social, or if it would, look more like a traditional support group, that kind of thing. And we would talk about it and we would create this. The logic behind it is very good. Some of the logic that like Ed gave, that it should be, that because, one of the very hard fast is that this is a support group, right, that would need a lot of support from CAPS, that would need a lot of outside stuff from the college, it would be too reliant on the college and as a result, kind of unstable and unpredictable; so, it should be like led by and for like trans and non-binary students at OSU, which I think is a wonderful idea and I know a lot of other trans people and non-binary people and stuff, and like everybody said, I should do this. Everybody said it's a good idea. And I've been overwhelmed, like, a family member that's dying, they have this like rapid form of brain cancer, there's just a lot of stressors in my life in general. But I put time and effort into this. And I was like, okay I'll do what I can. But then they canceled it. They said that I couldn't table at the last moment week-of. And I was just about to have fliers printed, I was working on the sign, I had created an Instagram, done all this stuff. The reason why is because we talked, we talked, there's this conversation that we had had-we as in me and a few of the staff at the Pride Center-weeks before. Where, I mentioned, just sort of offhand, in a conversation where we were talking about transphobia, and we had been talking for awhile, I mentioned- so what I said was, and I'm paraphrasing but I didn't really share any more than this, and it was genuinely about this short, and I just told them I struggle with internalized transphobia, which is why I view sort of transphobia, racism, homophobia, that sort of thing, I view it, more as like a disease in a lot of ways. And that's just something that we need to reckon with as treating it as something that we need to heal. And that's why we need to still like talk to conservatives and that sort of thing. And because there's a lot of conservatives that don't know they're trans, right? And there's a lot of people who are on the right and they might not be trans, but the only way that they'll be softened and they'll be less hateful is if they're exposed to us and they see that we're human and that kind of thing.

And first off, that, this first thing, I don't know for sure, but I strongly suspect that the folks at the Pride Center just didn't like that. They don't seem to even like the suggestion that we should talk to people who are remotely right wing. They really... yeah. I've heard them talk before, and I just get the sense that they don't really agree with me on that. But the thing that they did say for sure, particularly, is that they thought it was inappropriate I had shared, I forget the word that they used, it was something like, but they just didn't like that I had shared that I struggle with internalized transphobia. They said that bothered one of the members there-not one of the members-one of the staff, and I mean, we had had a really good conversation. There was even this one girl, she was apparently one of the two people that were bothered by it, who earlier in the conversation had thanked me for being so genuine, she said, which I thought was very sweet, because you know, like, it's hard for me to feel genuine these days. I feel more genuine being out, but for the first time ever-sorry this is just a quick tangent-but for the first time ever, well not quite ever but for a very long time, I felt social anxiety and stuff, because I was never anxious. Like for so long, I was never anxious as this "tough guy," I was never worried about what other people thought because it was a mask, right? I was worried about what other people thought for myself, if that makes sense? I wanted to make sure that I could prove to myself, right, that I didn't have to be liked, that didn't really matter, I didn't have to be accepted as long as I was seen as this dude, right? That was all that mattered. So I wasn't really anxious. That's why I was okay with getting up on stage and doing the griddy, you know? But now that I am authentic, it's spooky. So anyway, so that was a really nice compliment. And in my mind, that sort of gave me permission to share just a tiny bit more, you know? I don't know, I don't think it was such a bad thing, but they ended up, like, a week later, this one, sort of like, basically like the PR representative for the Pride Center-he's a good guy, but, you know, I disagree with him on a lot of things-he met with me, in private with Cindy. So they met with me to talk about the resource fair, and everything and preparing for it. And then they also talked about this, and they were very, very nice, at least outwardly. I love Cindy, yeah, and I like him, but I just got the sense that some of the people at the Pride Center don't really like me. And because of that, at least to my mind, that's ultimately the reason why they just didn't want me to create a support group. They at the last moment-I put all this work into it-said no. And I think that, I don't know, the Pride Center has a very sort of corporate vibe to me, like a very sort of like corporate America very like polite, but hollow. It just feels very superficial and that sort of thing. I can go more in depth, but I feel like I kind of lost, I don't feel really accepted by a lot of the queer community here, which is a very big deal for me because I'm afraid of losing community, afraid of losing that sort of stuff. I've always been hesitant of it, and it sort of reminds me of the frat, actually, when I was like, I can trust these people, you know, I can join this group. But there's a lot of people I know who are trans and non-binary, who have, who were pissed when they heard that. And they also don't really feel comfortable in the Pride Center. They don't really like it.

JB: Yeah. I'm, I'm so sorry that happened. Like putting all that work into it and just having it canceled. And I don't think it's uncommon for trans people to have internalized transphobia, so I don't know. Yeah, definitely a situation happening there. Yeah, I've kind of asked most of the questions, but I was kind of curious about your psych degree and whether that has anything? I don't know, like what you were planning on doing with that, maybe?

LW: Oh, yeah. Definitely. So, well, so, just kind of, I think is interesting is I always had this sort of. Like, blind spot, with gender stuff because I've loved psychology. I'm, I'm quite autistic, and I love, I have, like, a few things that I really, really, really love. Researching and understanding. Like philosophy, literature, sociology, that sort of stuff. And then psychology. Right. But like, I always just sort of like my mind blanked when it came to gender and sexuality. I always just like, for some reason, I have no interest in learning anything about that. I don't know why. You know? Of course, it's just because I was afraid and I was avoiding it. I realize that now. But now that I've indulged that, I've become really, really fascinated with those things. I'm not sure what specifically I want to do with it. I'm not too worried because I know I have such an intense passion and interest for psychology that I'm not really worried about, like, you know, becoming lost. Like, I'm sure I'll find something. And, you know, I'd be okay with going into research or, or, like, clinical practice, whatever. But, yeah, something I am very fascinated by is, have you ever heard of the - probably not, because he's pretty, he's fairly obscure - But the French psychoanalyst Jacques Lacan, before? Okay. Fascinating. Love him. He's. He's pretty bleak. He's pretty dark. And talks about, like, you know, they call him, like, the French Freud, which I think is sort of an insult, even though he liked that. He talks about like, repression, and all that typical psychoanalysis stuff, but it has a very deep existential basis, and I agree with it just really, really, strongly when I read his stuff. It was it was something where I had, he was one of the handful of thinkers where, like, I didn't just agree with them. I had already thought some of these things.

For example, a really famous, teaching of his, theory of his, is the mirror stage of development, which is where you see yourself in a mirror as a child and for the rest of your life, you are essentially chasing this image of yourself in the eyes of other people, seeing yourself the way you see yourself in a mirror, right? You know, which, it's a fundamental misrecognition, right, though, because we're not really our bodies like we are in a physical sense, but it doesn't truly represent the essence of who we are, you know? But we keep chasing that so that we can, in our mind, become like an object alongside other objects, I think, is how the Lacan puts it. Which is why when, you know, like Kurt Cobain scratches an itch on the back of his head with a shotgun, we're all surprised because he has everything that he could possibly have to see himself as an object alongside other objects, to see himself as his ideal self. You know, he has the fame, the fortune, everything you could possibly want. Why would you do that? You know, he's finally got it. And just the idea that we keep chasing these things to make ourselves happy. This next part of our identity. Once I get that, I'll be happy. You know, we keep offloading it, like, you know, I work hard in school so I can go to college. And once I get in college, I'll be okay. But once you're in college, you're like, oh, I gotta work hard in college so I can get that good job. But once I get that good job, I'll be okay, right? You get that good job. Oh, now you got to get promotion, retirement, etc. You know, it can be like that new car can like, you get, like, a date with a cute boy or whatever, you know, it's just something, but once you get that, once you get to that point, your desire has to go in another direction because it's not really filling that void. It's not filling that existential void of "who am I?", everything like that. And I think that everything, I wrote a big paper on this arguing that, everything with a psychological or every like disorder with a psychological, cause, right. Everything that is like a psychological disorder, under a very, very, very strict definition of psychological that is as separated from any kind of, like, neurological, biochemical stuff as possible. You know, so just purely like thoughts and that kind of thing as much as you can, that all has an existential basis, you know, even like OCD, right? You know, it's about control. You know, it's about like feeling like we have some sort of effect of the world when really we don't. Basically, philosophically, I have a pretty like, honestly, like at least I think most people would describe it as, bleak. Sort of existentially absurdist outlook on the world. It's pretty specific. But, yeah. I guess with psychology, I'm definitely more on the sort of theoretical-philosophical side of it. Yeah.

JB: Yeah, that mirror theory is really interesting. I've never heard about that. But I feel like it kinda-

LW: You gotta you gotta look into him. Are you a psych major?

JB: I'm an anthropology major.

LW: Oh, okay. I love anthropology, too. So.

JB: Yeah, it's a good one. Yeah, my partner is a psych major, and so, you know, I'm exposed to it. It feels that way. Yeah, that's very interesting. I, I'm out of questions now. So, did you have anything else you wanted to share?

LW: Well, I'll just ask, your thesis. What exactly is the rundown of your thesis? I'm curious.

JB: Yes, so, I'm collecting oral histories from ten different people. You know, you're one of them, all across the gender spectrum, if you will, you know, whatever. Just like to, like, because I want to go into archiving. And so, it's to cement the experiences of queer students at OSU. And I'm going to donate them all to the to the archives, to the OSU Queer Archives.

LW: That's so cool.

JB: Yeah. It's fun. And I'm also going to do, like, an anthropological analysis of it.

LW: I really like that. Yeah, that's I'm in the honors college too, and I'm. Yeah, I, yeah, for me, like, I'm kind of combining like, psychology and writing, and, for mine, through my writing, I'm sort of using, like, sort of like Jungian, sort of like active imagination, that sort of thing. Where you like, explore yourself basically through creativity. And it's particularly focused on, like, gender and trauma and whatnot. Yeah, so with that, I guess just one question. I have is, my boyfriend actually thought, this is really cool. Do you need anyone else? Because you could interview him.

JB: I don't actually. You were my last interview, actually.

LW: Oh, okay. Oh, cool. Yeah.

JB: Yeah. Well, I am actually going to have, like, I have to - I'm also a queer studies minor, so I'm doing like a - we have to do a practicum to, like, fulfill the minor. So I'm going to host like an open mic of this essentially. Where it's like anyone can come and share their story. And then that's also going to be donated to the archives.

LW: You got to tell me about that.

JB: I will, well I was I was going to let all my interviewees know. So yes, you will hear about it.

LW: Okay. Yeah. That that sounds, I genuinely think that your thesis and that, like, it sounds really cool.

JB: Cool. Thank you. Okay.

LW: I think I'm probably good to go.

JB: Anything else before in the recording? [Lilith shakes her head no] No? Okay. Thank you for this.

LW: Nope, I think I'm good to go.

JB: All right, good.