Brian Parks Oral History Interview, March 4, 2020

STUDENT 1: Today's date is March 4th, 2020. Our names are Emelia and Stephanie. We're doing an oral history with Brian Parks for the OSU History 368: Gay and Lesbian Movements in Modern America. So, what is your name, and can you please spell it out loud?

BRIAN PARKS: Brian Parks. B-R-I-A-N P-A-R-K-S

STUDENT 1: And when were you born?

BP: I was born [in] 1975.

STUDENT 1: Where did you grow up?

BP: I grew up as an air force brat but mostly in Dallas, Texas.

STUDENT 1: How would you describe your childhood?

BP: I would say that I had a really idyllic childhood. My nickname was "Beaver" as in Leave It to Beaver. I have an older brother, two happily married parents, very comfortable middle-class suburban lifestyle. I had a great childhood.

STUDENT 1: What political views did your family hold when you were being raised.

BP: I would say my parents were both kind of classically conservative, but conservative by definition 30 years ago, not conservative in the way that that holds meaning now. I wouldn't call them socially progressive at that time, because that wasn't really a thing necessarily, but they were both more or less West Coast people living in Texas. My parents actually met at OSU and got married here in the late '60s. And after dad was drafted, moved to South Dakota-where I was born-at an air force base. And then moved around a little bit after that. But settled, essentially, in Dallas, Texas.

STUDENT 1: Did you stay in Dallas, Texas, all your life?

BP: Until high school. Until I graduated. I had, in some nerdy fashion, already decided-even when I was really little-that I would come to OSU. We would come here on family vacations and go to the coast. Oregon was still our heart state, in a way. We were in Texas because my dad worked for American Airlines. It was really just a job. Essentially, after I walked across the stage and got my diploma from graduating, we all got in our cars and drove out here. My parents moved to Seattle. And I came to OSU that fall. So, it was kind of predetermined.

STUDENT 1: In high school, were you involved in athletics, clubs, anything of the sort?

BP: No, I was in band. In Texas, that's a pretty big deal because it's marching band; football in Texas is everything. I did it essentially, as a way to get out P.E. because I was the typically male paranoid young closeted gay kid, I didn't 00:03:00want to take showers with all the other guys. So, I went into band. It suited me because it was all sort of the misfit kids. I ran with-I think we called it-the black t-shirt crowd. We always had Cure t-shirts and messed up hair and makeup, and nose piercings. It was sort of a way of buffering ourselves from the popular kids who would pick on you because you were different. But if you were extra different, they would kind of leave you alone. So, I went with that as sort of a classics '80s New Waver kid.

STUDENT 1: Were you ever bullied?

BP: For sure. Yes, much more in a way of being intimated. It's hard to explain. It was just a given that we were the misfits. So I went through one school 00:04:00system until I switched to another school system my senior year of high school because I hated the school that I had been basically brought up in. It was very, very wealthy. It was very white. It was very socially, classically aggressive male, sportsy kind of thing. And I had some friends through my church group at other high school. And it was much more mellow and much more easy-going. So I switched my senior year to a different high school.

Bullying, for me, was more so just implied. You just live with a lot of stress of not belonging, a lot of mutterings of "faggot". Just little bits and pieces. I never got beat up. I remember one moment being in P.E. class in junior high, and some guy was throwing a basketball at me. I was sitting at the bleachers, 00:05:00just trying to disappear and avoid everybody. And this basketball kept slamming from side of my head to this side of the head, to this side of head, to this side of the head. I just tried to ignore it. And then the coach came in and saw what was going on, and made me go down to do push-ups in front of everybody. And that was pretty typical Texas machismo sort of thing. That to me was bullying. It was basically more implied, not necessarily physical but menacing.

STUDENT 1: Were your parents aware of this happening?

BP: I don't think so. Not really. I was a pretty quiet kid. I had a lot of friends. I had a great social life. But I spent the majority of my time as a nature geek. I'd ride my bike out to the woods and fish and catch snakes and do insect collections. I was perfectly happy and content on my own in the woods. 00:06:00There were armadillos. For me, Texas was a really place to grow up as a nature geek because it's a confluence of tropical and northern, and I can go on and on. I was happily entertained with just playing in the woods.

STUDENT 1: And how did you discover your sexuality?

BP: I don't remember not knowing that I was gay. Earliest memories are of really innocent crushes on my father's pilot friends. [Laughs] Really truly. But as a little kid, I thought it was something that I actually could outgrow. I planned on going west. I was gonna go west, and then I would meet a woman that I would somehow find attractive, because be out on the West Coast, and be rugged and be whatever. When you're really little, you think your orientation is more malleable than it really is. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But for me, it wasn't.

But I remember being very cognitively aware, as a second grader, that I was 00:07:00madly in love with a few of the fifth-grade guys. It was something that I knew I would never share with anybody, and is kind of one of the biggest aspects of my life that shaped me as who I am now. You learn, as a little gay kid, to get to know yourself intimately. You're in with your own thoughts, I think, to a different degree or in a different manner than most kids are, because you know that you're something different. You're a different animal. Maybe there's guilt and shame involved with that, maybe there's not. For me, there was, because it was Texas, we went to a pretty conservative church. My youth pastor, I remember him saying something about how he would never allow a gay person around his kids. It was outspoken and pretty much understood across the populace that gay people weren't very cool and couldn't be trusted with your kids, and with this dark, evil force and sad and miserable, and never going to be happy, and 00:08:00probably going to die of AIDS.

There was no gay figure in the public eye that was healthy individual by social standards. The only gay people that I was aware of were musicians like Boy George or this sort of more fantastical characters. So, there was no average Joe gay person on TV, buying a hamburger at McDonald's. It was, just didn't exist in the populace. I knew I was something different. And I knew it wasn't something I can share, really.

STUDENT 1: You mentioned being part of the conservative church with your parents. Did they ever speak about homosexuality? Or were they ever aware of you being gay?

BP: They weren't aware of me. They weren't worried about me, but they were pretty convinced that my brother was gay. We didn't talk about this as a family 00:09:00at all. This really just came out much later in life. I came out before my brother. My brother is also gay and currently happily married. So they weren't expecting me. Then when I came out before him, it was kinda like, "Oh, crap. We got two gay kids."

I think they were pretty much "Live and let live." But my dad had said a few things on occasion which he deeply regrets now. I had an out, gay friend who my parents kind of didn't want me to hang out with, sort of marginalized in a way, and he was really my best friend at the time. I remember trying to have a conversation once, because I had been really angry with my parents and my mom asked me how he was doing. And I said "Oh, he's doing really great. He's lost a lot of weight these days," because he had a weight problem. And my dad was like, "From what? AIDS?" And I remember just "Ah..." It was this devastating thing to me. I was very angry at my dad for years about that. But they weren't any more 00:10:00or less homophobic that anyone else. They were just average white people who're unaware of what it was to be gay. Just white, middle-class. Didn't really have any gay people in their life that they knew, so it was obviously this other thing.

STUDENT 1: Did you ever have relationships with girls or guys throughout high school?

BP: Not really. I had had one girlfriend who sort of forced me into it. [Laughs] We were friends. And I thought she was a lot of fun hanging out with. Then she started telling my friends that she was worried I was gay, so I ended up counting to five one night and kissed her, just to prove to her that I wasn't. Then, all of a sudden, everyone was like "Oh you're dating." And all of sudden, I was dating somebody. But I knew it was wrong. It didn't feel good to me at all. It was terrible. We weren't ever intimate. It was horrible. And she was kind of an awful person in the end, so it was easy enough for me to call it off. 00:11:00For a while though, it felt really good to be normal and to lose that fear that I had that I would be found out. Or to thumb my nose at all the cool kids in school, because I was dating somebody, "turns out I'm not gay." I remember even my close friends, their nickname for me was "Tink" or "Tinker Bell." And it was affectionate, but still somewhat hurtful.

STUDENT 1: When did you graduate high school?

BP: I graduated in 1993.

STUDENT 1: And when you moved to Oregon, were you nervous, scared? Did you have any friends who also were going to OSU?

BP: No, I didn't know anyone who was here. By luck of the draw, I ended up on an all-guys floor of Finley Hall. At that time, I was kind of intimidated by the general straight, male population. Although I had a lot of straight guy friends 00:12:00in Texas, somehow I felt moving out here was gonna be different and intimidating. But by the first month of my living on that floor, we were fast friends and we adored each other, and we got in all kinds of trouble. And most of my friends by the end of my freshman year were typical straight male guys.

STUDENT 1: And when did you join the Lesbian Avengers?

BP: That's such a funny question to hear. So, I'm really a Lesbian Avenger just honorarily. At the time, I wasn't considered one. I eventually came to terms with my sexuality towards the end of my freshman year of college. Realized nothing was gonna change. I came out to a couple close friends who were very supportive and encouraged me to go and meet other gay people. So essentially, I 00:13:00came out to my parents, I came out to everyone in my life in one fell swoop. And I didn't want to control that information anymore. I didn't want somebody to know and somebody to not know. So, all across, I told everybody. And all of my guy friends were like "Whatever, awesome. I don't care. You'll probably help me get girlfriends." It was a nonissue for me.

I went to-at the time, it was call-the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual Alliance. It was a small group on campus. We met in the Women's Building. On my first meeting, first time I went-and of course, I'm just nervous as hell-Derek, who was Amy at the time, said "We need another co-director." Derek, who was Amy, was female at the time, she said she was the female co-director of the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual 00:14:00Alliance. And the charter really didn't allow for the group to exist without a male counterpart. It was written so that there would be a guy and a girl to balance things. And there wasn't a guy, so they were worried about losing funding and losing the group if there wasn't a male who would do it. And somehow, I raised my hand and I said "Sure, I'll do it."

So really, right out of closet as a little baby gay, I all of a sudden was a co-director of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual Alliance. Then from there, everything just happened really quickly, actually. It was surreal. I came out really fast. Within a couple of weeks, I ended up on the front page of the Barometer for coming out day. And the entire campus knew. All of a sudden, bam, I was out. 00:15:00There was no baby stepping into this. It was just bam, I was out as I could be. While I was still growing into my own shoes as a gay person and learning what it was to be openly gay, I was all of a sudden a public figure in one fell thing.

Back to Lesbian Avengers, Derek and Julie had started the chapter here. About two years, we became very close friends, very, very good friends. So I'll flop back and forth. I'll say "Amy" because when I think back to there-it's Amy but it's Derek. If that's all confusing, I apologize. But, Amy and I would hold hands and skip through campus. And she was this very, very attractive lesbian woman who was very gender-ambiguous, very classically masculine in some ways, very classically feminine in others, and was attractive to everybody. Amy was hot. Amy was really, really attractive. And to most people, they thought she was 00:16:00a young man. So, we would hold hands and skip through campus, and people would be like "faggots" and we would just laugh. It was hilarious to us. I ended up moving in with them. And our house was essentially the gay seed of Corvallis. In any one moment, we would joke a well-placed bomb could destroy all the gays in Corvallis because we'd all be at this one house.

So, I'm honored to be called a Lesbian Avenger. I think it's the most kickass thing ever. But at the time, I wasn't really an avenger, although I was with them and we did things together. I would have never inserted myself into that definition because I respected them as lesbian women and I was a gay man. I mean, we would joke that I was towel boy for the Lesbian Avengers. But it's sweet now to be considered one. I'm incredibly proud of it. They essentially 00:17:00raised me, when I came out. I didn't really identify with any particular political stands or way of being as an out, proactive gay individual. There were no other men present, essentially, at the time. They were sort of figures that would come and go. And they were secretive and very much wanted to be anonymous. They did not want anyone to know that they were gay. So, they would come into meetings but then watch the door when they left. And for me, that was too much. I just couldn't control my life that way. I'm way too open, way too out. It was just "Ok, I'm out." Like I said, I didn't want to control that kind of information, so I was out. And the only other people that were out at the time was Derek and Julie. The three of us, probably with another core of 11 other 00:18:00people, were the only folks who would be visibly present, at one event or another, and not run when the cameras came. So, essentially, it was me and a pack of really awesome lesbian women. And so I was an avenger by default.

STUDENT 1: What were the first meetings like?

BP: Avenger meetings were always at our house. And I would be there, I wouldn't be there. Like I said, I wasn't really necessarily an avenger. I was more so co-director with Derek for the Queer Alliance. Their meetings were fun. I honestly don't really remember. I was only at a few of them. I don't remember exactly what all it was. But it was really damn cool.

They would do tattoo nights and hair cutting nights. They mixed a lot of play 00:19:00time with some really radical activism. I was especially taken with them because of how articulate they were. We would do panels for human sexuality classes. There'd be like 300 people in this auditorium and it would be three or four of us sitting on stage. We'd try to get a lesbian woman and a gay man, maybe somebody-trans wasn't exiting at the time as a definition necessarily-but maybe someone who was gender-fluid. And then all these kids would be throwing questions at us. A lot of them were filled with snickers, they weren't sincere questions. They were like "What do you do when you take a shower," that kind of thing. Derek would always answer with the most articulate, calm response. And I 00:20:00was so crushed out on him for that. It was remarkable. He would always it into something really educational and sort of smack it back in a polite way that was like "You look like a stupid person for asking that."

"Showers aren't sexual things for us. We take a shower for a purpose. After a day at the gym, we take a shower. It's not a sexual event. It maybe is for you, but we don't view it as a sexual event, so it's really not an issue." It's essentially how he would answer a question like that, he was brilliant. I feel really honored to have been part of that circle because really complicated subjects were handled so articulately almost without emotion; not reactive, just very matter of fact. It was really powerful, and changed a lot of people's minds at the time, cuz it wasn't anything to teehee or snicker at, really.

STUDENT 1: Were you ever harassed on campus?

BP: No. I had sort of a surreal existence. And this is where it's kind of complicated. I got away with what I did because I was passing, because I didn't act like a gay man. And I didn't dress like a gay man, and I wasn't super effeminate. I had a nice truck and I went hunting. I was this very passing, palatable gay man. So I could go and meet with the fraternities and the sororities, and co-sponsor events because I wasn't threatening. I wasn't typically gay. It was almost like my superpower. It's a bittersweet thing because I was there as an advocate for all gay people.

And it was frustrating to me that I knew I was only being accepted because I was passing. Handsome guy with this cool car, he's a cool guy. He's a cool bro, he's got this great music collection and all of these things that were somehow 00:22:00important. And I know if I had been classically effeminate, I wouldn't have been able to make the strides that I did. So, like I said, it's bittersweet.

I never got any kind of harassment. And if I did, it was funny to me. Like, I was DJing for the first drag show at OSU, and-a really, really fun memory of mine-we didn't realize it but the ballroom had a country western dance going on, so we could only get the steps of the MU to do the drag show. So we were all up on the steps. And I had my records playing and stuff. And these awesome queens had come down from Portland. We were doing their thing. And all the country western people had to walk pass us to get into the front. And they were just kinda horrified at it. And I remember one guy was like, "faggot" and it just made me laugh. It was like these bitches could kick your ass. Like, say it again louder, I dare you.

So, for me, not to trivialize homophobia, but I didn't really experience it. Long story short, I just didn't, for whatever reason. Maybe I didn't notice it. But I got away with it just because I was passing.

STUDENT 1: Did you, or anyone you knew-were they ever scared for their life?

BP: Absolutely, especially the Avengers. Anyone who didn't really fit in. Their stories speak to it more than mine. But their hotline was constantly being filled with death threats. We still have the tapes. I think they've been donated to the archives. But it happened all the time. People would always call-and it was before we could really trace calls-and anytime that there was a public function where the Avengers showed up and did something, or were being proactive, like at a women's basketball game, there were tons of hateful phone calls and threats all the time.

And Safe Ride had just started at that point. And I remember them coming to us and having the conversation about helping us feel safer and offering us rides. And I was like "Yeah, but do I need a gay card to get on?", because typically they didn't offer rides for men. It was just for women. And I was like "Well, how do we do that?" Like I said, I myself wasn't really necessarily worried. I lived in sort of a bubble compared to everyone else. But yeah, definitely they were-and still are-threatened. Derek has a very different existence to me, because of his being trans and very passing now as a man.

STUDENT 1: Did the administration back you guys up in any way? Or did they make things worse for you?

BP: They were pretty much just annoyed with us at first. It was a quieter time, 00:25:00like I said. Gays really didn't exist in the public eye. This is pre-Ellen. It's funny to use that term but it's really true. We didn't exist in any sort of public format like we do now. There was no Queer Eye, there was no RuPaul. There was nobody in media that was openly queer. And if they were, like I said, they were some sort of a character persona, like a Liberace or whatever. That's what gay people were.

So we set up a tent like they still do, in the quad. And it got harassed every year. We sort of asked for it a little bit, just because of the conversation. 00:26:00Like we did a lot of chalk work in the quad. Like we wrote "Bert and Ernie are gay." Then, people would retaliate. And there was one that as like "Silly faggot. Dicks are for chicks." People would return the thing. So we ended up sleeping in the tent every night just to keep it safe. And one night, a group of guys came out, and shot a shotgun off over the tent at two in the morning. And that was absolutely terrifying. Absolutely terrifying. Anna Jacobs-and this is how fierce these people were-before anyone even knew what was going on, she got up, ran out of the tent, and chased the guys and actually kicked one of the shoes off of one of them, as these people had just shot a gun. That's someone who's willing to die for this, essentially. It's really one of those badass 00:27:00things I've ever heard of in my life. I kind of lost my mind after that. It was so stressful to me. I couldn't find my car for a couple of days. I knew it hadn't been stolen but I couldn't find it. Really rattled me, absolutely. It was the most afraid I had ever been.

That next night, a bunch of the faculty did come out and stay with us until late. Then we just sat in chairs. I think President Byrne came out that night, and a few other pretty high up faculty people came out to offer some sort of solidarity, which was touching. But they should have anyways. So, for that next week, we wore targets around. We just bought targets at Bi-Mart. This is where the Avengers are, again, really freaking smart. And we wore them on our backpacks, around our back. And the general feeling was that we were being crybabies. People were writing into the Barometer and saying, "Oh these people 00:28:00are just looking to get attention." It felt like it missed everybody that that was a gun. It missed everybody that someone shot a shotgun off in the middle of campus, in the middle of the night to threaten us. Everyone just thought we were being crybabies. It was like "Those guys should shut up and just go away. Why do you got to make this all about you?" It was just weird. They just thought we were drama queens. It was how people reacted. And faculty privately would tell you that their hearts are breaking for you. But there wasn't a lot that people would do publicly for it, unless they're already known to be out and queer. But still, it was very much not that supportive.

STUDENT 1: Did the police ever get involved?

BP: They did. There were certain people on the police force that would do 00:29:00anything for us and really watched out for us, that took it seriously. But again, the majority "Meh" just sort of wanted it to go away. I think most people saw us as rebel rousers and causing all of these problems. Rather than being the victims, we were inciting all of this. And if we'd just shut up and go away, it wouldn't happen. "It wouldn't happen if you didn't dress like that." It's the same way that women get re-victimized for dressing too provocatively and then that's why they got assaulted. It's like "If just you would assimilate, none of these would happen." "Just shut up and be normal, and no guns would have gone off" and whatever.

STUDENT 1: You guys talked about how you also stood up for those who couldn't stand up for themselves, like racism. Was the climate ever super racist on campus?

BP: Oh, totally. I moved here from a very racially blended part of the US. A third of my high school was Asian, a third was Hispanic. It was very evenly a melting pot in Texas. And I moved here and was sort of in shock. I was just like, "I haven't seen a black person in a month." And when I would see somebody, I would find myself staring and being like "Oh my god." It was very, very white. It still is, much less so than it was then. Back then, it was an incredibly white campus. And if you were a person of color, it was just assumed that you were in sports. And that's the only reason you're here. And generally understood that that was the thing, that was just how it was.

I never saw a whole lot of overt racism other than just people being stupid, 00:31:00uneducated, not realizing what they said was hurtful. Again, it's just a matter of people being unaware because they've not experienced it. All of these kids, coming from all over Oregon from largely white communities, don't know any better than to make a stupid racist joke just because they were ignorant. They've never had a black friend and they've never met a black person. And they don't understand that it's actually offensive. And they've never been on that side of things.

STUDENT 1: What does activism mean to you?

BP: It just means being visible. I think "visible" is the best word I could say for anything that I would consider activism. My activism was just visibility. It was just showing up. It was just being able to let it be known that I was who I was. It wasn't necessarily carrying a torch or a bullhorn, or all of those things. It was really just being present, having a sticker on my car. Because I 00:32:00knew what it would have meant to me to have seen that myself as a kid and seen somebody represented. For me, activism is just being genuine, being yourself. Sounds a little corny, but it's really true. If only people would have been more out, I think everyone would have such an easier time. It's a lot less isolating when you realize that there are actually quite a lot of people around you that are just as queer as you. Much less isolating.

STUDENT 1: Would you consider yourself an activist still?

BP: Mm-hmm. [Positive tone]

STUDENT 1: And were you ever criticized for being an activist by your family?

BP: I wasn't criticized for it. My parents were less than thrilled because they were scared. They were worried about me. They saw me in the Barometer-and I was 00:33:00pretty open with them about it-and they saw it as a distraction to my schooling, which it was. I ended up sacrificing my college career for this. But to me, I couldn't even question it. It was an imperative. I had to do it. There was no other way for me to move forward without being out. I don't know how else to explain it, it just was something I had to do. But now they're incredibly proud. Now, my parents are beyond proud of what I did back then.

This last year, I got invited to be the keynote speaker for the Lavender Graduation, which is freaking awesome. My parents came and they sat in the ballroom, and they met in the ballroom. It was their anniversary. So it was this big, full-circle thing. They were so proud to see me up there, addressing 00:34:00everybody. And they get it now. They understand the choices that I made for sure.

STUDENT 1: You said that you sacrificed your college career on your activism. Can you go further into that?

BP: Sure. So, I came here for horticulture and landscape design. I loved those two things that I was doing here. I was very typical in that I went right from high school into college and didn't think much about that transition or what it meant, it was just what people did.

I excelled in the classes that I enjoyed, and I was terrible at the ones that I didn't enjoy. Then when I compiled that with the distraction that was the activism that I did at the time, it was just too much. Eventually, I was giving, and not really being fed. It was really hard. Essentially, just by default, I 00:35:00was the person that people would come and talk to. Kids would come and talk to me. Their parents had just kicked them out of their house. They didn't know where to go. So, all of a sudden, I'm like this authority and I'm supposed to be helping all of these people.

I remember one young man who had come out to his parents. He was 14. And his parent had gone to the extent of making him eat on paper plates and plastic forks because they were sure he had the AIDS, because that's what it was when you're a gay kid. He had siblings who lived in the house who got to eat on regular china. He was just same as all of them, but he was a gay kid. And he ended up leaving. I have no idea where he is now. That was sort of the heartache that was shoveled on us all the time. It was awful. I really didn't have enough resources in me to be the supportive person that I really needed to be at that time.

Essentially, I just got so burned out on school, I couldn't handle it. I took some time off, moved back to Seattle for a term, and then came back here to go to culinary school at LBCC. Just sort of started anew there. And realized, in a sense, that hands-on learning was much better suited for me. I don't sit still very well for very long. And I loved culinary school. It was actually one of the best decisions I made. I own a restaurant now, so it all really made sense in the end. But, had I not done the activism that I did, I probably would have stuck through and graduated, and probably taken a different path in life.

STUDENT 1: How was being a part of the Lesbian Avengers influence your future?

BP: I'm much more inclined to speak up. I'm not apologetic when it comes to how 00:37:00I see or feel things. It's sort of the gift that they gave me. When I say I was raised by them, it was really true. Their political views were, "We speak up. We say what's right. Even if it's really uncomfortable and even if it means our lives are threatened." They went to task on everything that was right. They were very righteous people. And I was someone, like I said, who was really passing. I could just disappear into the crowd and no one would know I was this gay person. I could just fit in really easily. But what I took from them was really to speak up for the people who don't fit it. That's really the best thing that came out of that for me. It was just that sense of "speak up for people and do what's right," even if it puts you in a dangerous position and it's uncomfortable. It's 00:38:00just important. It's super important.

STUDENT 1: Are you taking part in any activism now, today, with any problems?

BP: No. Not in sense rather than just living my life. And when I meet people, when they see that I have a ring on my hand and they assume it's a wife, I just very easily, quickly say "oh, my husband." I make a point of not letting any of that slide. I want to be as much myself as I can. Not in an aggressive manner, but I just make sure that people know who I am and where I stand. That, to me, is just my activism really.

I'm really proud of my restaurant. We have a very gay-friendly space. I make a point of that in a way-I don't necessarily hire people because they're gay-when 00:39:00people come in that are obviously a gay couple, we make sure that they feel welcome and safe there. We've had some people come in that were Corvallis Gay Professionals-is what they called themselves. I haven't seen them in while. But they would come and put this little piece of paper on their table. And it would just say "All gays welcome. Corvallis Gay Professionals." They would have appetizers and stuff. We ended up putting that on our Instagram and just like "Yeah, this is us. This is something that's important." And Corvallis restaurant community, in general, is very queer friendly and very open. So, it's not like it was some big, radical move on our part. But it's just important, I think.

STUDENT 1: Do you that the climate has improved in the US, or just, say, in Oregon? What are some places where you think it hasn't improved?

BP: It's definitely improved. It never would have occurred to me to even ask for 00:40:00gay marriage back then. It wasn't even a thought in my head. I never even thought we would even have that conversation. That's not necessarily a milestone for everybody. But it is, for a lot of people.

It's improved just in general visibility. There are a lot more normal people that are out there. Like Miley Cyrus can go and date a girl and it's not the end of the world anymore. People aren't falling apart over those sorts of things, they're almost sort of expected. Obviously, there's much further we have to go. I think a lot more sports figures should be coming out, because of the visibility thing. Gay people are a lot less trivialized. It still is frustrating because so many of the people that do, end up the most-in the public eye-are 00:41:00because they are extreme, in a sense. Like Bruce Jenner, who's now-I can't even remember her name now-one of the more notable trans figures right now.

STUDENT 1: Caitlyn.

BP: Caitlyn Jenner, yes, thank you. Nothing against her, but she's sort of this extreme person who's a republican and there's all this wackiness and reality TV kind of crap that goes on with it. I wish that more people would just be like gay-after-the-fact. "I am this person and I'm also gay." And everyone's guilty of it. People still say "oh, my best gay friend" or whatever. It's a word that I think comes too soon in the conversation. I'd rather be like "after the fact." Instead of saying "oh, my black friend, so and so," it's like "my friend, so and 00:42:00so." That information isn't pertinent. It's not relative. It doesn't help define the person at all, just leave that word out if you would. And I wish that we would get more there a little bit more quickly with sexuality, because it's just silly. It doesn't really mean anything. It's like saying "my straight friend, so and so." What do you get from that? Anything more than "my gay friend"? Maybe, maybe not.

STUDENT 1: Taking it back, you talked about how your brother was also gay. Were you guys close? Did you guys ever talk about sexuality?

BP: When we were little, we didn't really speak at all. We didn't have much of a relationship although we shared the same group of friends. It's hard to explain, but it's just how we were. We did not get along as kids. And I had been out for about two years or so in Corvallis. He had moved back to Seattle with my parents for a bit and came down to visit me. We were friendly with each other. We 00:43:00weren't close at this time. But he said he wanted to come down and talk to me. And I said "Oh yeah, sure. Come on down." He would come down and visit every now and again. We weren't estranged. And he said "Well, your big brother's in love." And I said, "What's his name?" [Laughs] Because I knew exactly that he was coming down to come out to me. And he was so pissed. He was so mad because I totally took this away from this. That was really the first time that we ever really talked about it.

When I came out to the family, he was super supportive and super proud of me, and told my parents, "I think diversity is a good thing. It just adds more flavor to life." There was no pushback from him at all. He was totally supportive. I think he was a little frustrated that I had come out before him. But everyone takes their own time. He eventually came out, shortly after that, 00:44:00to my parents as well.

STUDENT 1: When did you meet your partner?

BP: I met Chris about ten years ago. This spring will be ten years. Hadn't really dated at all in Corvallis. No one could ever seem to find anyone to set me up with. Internet dating just didn't exist in any real sense. It's hard to explain. I would have just really, tragically terrible dates, just awful. I remember a very typical moment. Went on a date with a fellow who drove up from Eugene. And of course, he wasn't anything like his photograph. He was one the most miserable people I had ever met. I met him at Starbucks. He told me, within ten minutes of talking to him, what order hoped his parents would die in. I'll never forget it. He was just like "God, I just can't stand my dad. I sure hope 00:45:00he dies first." It was so surreal. I was like "Oh my god." There's no possibility for a second date after a conversation that that. That was basically my dating life in a nutshell.

Other than that, I had lots of affairs with straight men. I bonded really easily and really intimately with a lot of straight guys-it's college. And I developed relationships with them, a couple in particular, that ended up crossing physical lines. I usually would fall deeply in love. It was difficult for them too because they weren't really, necessarily physically oriented that way. But their emotions would get the better of them because I was sort of a mother figure in a way. I took care of things with them that the other straight guys didn't do. I 00:46:00cooked and I did house cleaning and whatever, where the other guys just would leave beer cans everywhere-I don't know, I'm not making any sense. [Laughs] But, I had some pretty intense relationships with people that were essentially-it was going to go nowhere. But it just was what it was, no regrets at all. But just there weren't any gay men to date.

So, when I met Chris, I don't know, it's sort of like we just skipped straight from dating to marriage. We pretty much figured out that we were a good fit. And we've been married now going on seven years. It's pretty kickass. It was weird. I went from absolutely no experience in relationships, other than these confused things, to an incredibly stable, healthy adult relationship overnight.

STUDENT 1: Did you, with the relationships with straight men, have to be super secretive about it? Was it dangerous, in a sense?

BP: I was secretive about it out of just respect for them. It wasn't anything that we were going to make public. A few of our friends would catch on and think it was pretty funny that we would come back from camping together and we'd be wearing each other's clothes. I'd be wearing his pants, he'd be wearing my pants, whatever. They were like, "Hmm. What's that about?"

But yeah, it wasn't anything that was really public. And it didn't need to be. I didn't really, necessarily want it or need it to be, because it wasn't any relationship that I knew was supposed to be or going to be. It just was what it was. It was just really an intense friendship. That's how I looked at it. I didn't look at it as dating at all.

STUDENT 1: Throughout college, did you ever second guess doing activism in the 00:48:00beginning? Any regrets or anything like that?

BP: No, none. I don't know why I never second-guessed it. It just, like I said, seemed really imperative to me. It's something I had to do. I'm not really a political person by nature. I'm not a fighter. I don't like conflict. But for me, it just seemed like something that I really had to do. And from that first meeting in the Women's Center, it just was what it was. I don't really recall being proud of it at the time. I don't remember really being conflicted by it. I remember my heart racing when I would go into my class after the paper had come out, and see people reading it and looking over at me like, "Oh dude, oh my 00:49:00god." So, that was intense. And wondering around feeling like everyone knew who I was in this campus, where I used to be just completely anonymous, was odd. It was really strange, because all of a sudden I was this public figure, which I never really wanted to be. But it just seemed like it was important. I don't even think I understood how important it was at the time. It certainly has come to mean a lot more to me now than it did then.

STUDENT 1: When did you guys kind of end? After you guys graduated, was that when it ended? Or, when you took a break, was that when it ended?

BP: For the most part. I went off to LBCC and never had a thought of doing anything there, as far as activism. I don't remember choosing or thinking of walking away from it at the time. Derek and Julie and I had kind of grown apart 00:50:00as it was, not purposefully, but we just went different directions. Where I ended up at LBCC, I was out. Nobody gave a crap about it when I was at school. It was a nonissue. No one thought anything of it. It just was.

I had always meant to come back to OSU and check in, and see what things were like here. I left OSU in '97, and I meant to come back and see, but it just felt weird. There were, sometimes, some older gay men who would come into meetings and we always felt like we had to protect the young kids from them, in a way. And I didn't want to be looked at as that creepy old guy who's coming in to 00:51:00scoop someone up or something. So, I never did. I never bothered. And I never really felt like it would matter if I came in or not. I didn't think anyone would remember anything we did. College is so transitional. People come and they go. And no one at OSU now, except for Mina Carson, was here when I was here.

So, what happened, the whole reason that we're all sitting here today, all this time had gone by. I never left town. I really enjoyed being here. Corvallis suits me well. Found a husband and bought a small farm. Found a really good life here. And I ended up hiring a young woman named Miriam. She had worked for me for a couple of weeks, she was working in my kitchen. One night, it was just the two of us-I was sitting at my bar doing some paperwork-she came and asked me if 00:52:00it'd be ok if she came in late the next day, cuz she was going to go advocate for some funding for some mental health issues. And I was like "Oh, absolutely. That's a killer. Of course, you can come in late anytime you need to do something like that. That's amazing."

I didn't know anything about what she did at OSU. So I asked her, and she said it was for the Queer Resources Center. The way it works is you got to in and ask for it, or you're not going get it back. So, if you don't show up to ask where this funding is, it doesn't exist anymore. So she was just doing that and being proactive. And I was like, "Oh, that's so cool!" I was like "I used to do stuff like that in the middle '90s at OSU." She was like "Oh, really?" I was like, "I used to be in queer politics and help developed the campus gay alliance", which it wasn't called back then.

And she looked at me in this funny way, and her eyes got really wide. She's like "Oh my god, really?" I was like "Yeah. It was a long time ago. But it was 00:53:00something I'm proud of." And she's like, "I know who you are." And this light went off in her head. It actually brought me to tears. She was like "No, no, you don't understand. We know you. I can't believe I work for you." She hadn't put it together either. She's like, "Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god." And she's like "I've got to get you in there. I can't wait to go in and tell everybody that I work for you." And I was like "What?!" I was totally blown away, because I had just thought who the hell would ever remember any of that stuff? She's kind of like "What you're doing now is really cool."

And again, it came back like full circle. All of a sudden, I got to relive these moments. I got a hold of Julie and Derek, and told them. And they were blown away. They were like, "Oh my god, really?" I was like "Yeah, they totally know who we are! Can you believe this?" So, it spurred this whole thing where we all came back and donated stuff to the archives and got to tell our stories.

Essentially, it was Miriam who brought us back into here, and then told us that 00:54:00we're still relevant, which is so cool and, honestly, really blew me away. So, I owe it to Miriam.

STUDENT 1: From what you know, has the activism in the queer community at OSU declined?

BP: I don't think it's anything like what it was. I really can't even imagine that it is anything like it was. But again, I'm really not that educated. I don't know what goes on here. I'm blown away by the funding that is. I'm blown away by the diversity that is. Julie and Derek and I had no idea what exists at OSU now. Our budget was like $600 for the year. We just used it to make really aggressive posters. That was really about it.

Now it's in the thousands what you guys get to work with-I don't mean to say you guys-but with the Queer Resources Center it has, it's just infinitely beyond what we did. So that, in a sense, is amazing. It's much more an official thing. 00:55:00We were sort of a fringe group that was just tolerated. And now, I think, what's going on on campus is much more on par with any other center, any other group that is here.

STUDENT 1: Did you, Julie, and Derek ever contact each other after college, things like that?

BP: Hardly. We ran into each other once really randomly. But that was quite a few years ago, and it was when Derek was just starting to transition. We always meant to reconnect, but it's just how life works. They were up in Portland, and I'm down here, and in a very different existence. We're really stoked that we have reconnected now and we talk pretty often. It's meant a lot to me, especially between Derek and I because we were always sort of boyfriends back 00:56:00then. It's just cute. We adored each other. And I'm really proud of that friendship. Derek is one of the most powerful people I've ever met in my life. To be able to still be in touch with him is amazing. I just love it. And again, I owe it to Miriam cuz it just brought this whole thing about.

STUDENT 1: How long have you stayed in Corvallis?

BP: Since '93.

STUDENT 1: Have you ever planned on leaving?

BP: No. Never had much of an intent to go anywhere else. I lived a little bit with my parents in Seattle in between. But Corvallis just suited me. I fell into a group of friends that's incredibly stable and supportive. And they're kind of my everything. I think if you're in this town and you have the right group of friends, it's just perfect. I don't miss big city life at all. I got enough of 00:57:00that when I was a kid in Texas. It's not everything, but Corvallis is incredibly comfortable. Obviously being married, with a mortgage and all off that kind of seals that deal.

STUDENT 1: Has the climate changed with time? What would you say the climate is now towards queer people?

BP: It's certainly better. I don't think anyone bats an eye at me, at least. And I'm pretty blown away. Like I was saying, when I first got here and I would see someone who's African American, I'd be awkwardly staring. And now when I see out trans kids or gender-non-conforming kids and adults, I love it. To me, it's just like seeing an openly Muslim person. Any bit of diversity, I think, is just really thing for this town. This town is hungry for it, in a way. To me, that's 00:58:00an improvement. I never want to focus too much on improvements because there's still so much more to go, so much further to go. I think Corvallis is a wonderful little bubble. But you know it when you leave here. We have it pretty good as far as things go. As far as tolerance and acceptance, I think Corvallis is pretty awesome for what it could be. But again, we have ways to go, always.

STUDENT 1: Do you and your husband ever get weird looks or anything? No comments?

BP: No. He's taller than me. He's got this big beard. And we're both very passing people. And I think that's really it. People just don't think anything of you just because of that.

STUDENT 1: Is there anything in the future that you're looking forward to? Any things like that?

BP: I'd like to be more present on campus. Like I said, I'm really flattered to be a part of this. It means a lot to me that what we went through back then really mattered and did something. I love sharing the history of it, because it's just really cool to me. It's really cool that people care and actually want to know. So yeah, in the future, any time that there's a need for a speaker or a panel or anything, I'd love to be here to share. That's cool. I love it.

STUDENT 1: Awesome. Anything else that you'd like to talk about, bring back up?

BP: Not really. More to speak about the Avengers. Really, again, I can't say 01:00:00enough. When you were asking about the activism today, I couldn't imagine that it is anything of the brilliance that they carried. It was just remarkable. This incredible blend of humor and intelligence. It was just so smart, what they did. I'm still blown away by the intelligent action that they carried out with everything. It was just righteous. They saw what needed to happen and they came to task like superheroes. They just did it. Weren't afraid at all. Just reliving all of the activism that they did, that's just so cool. It's amazing, all the topless events. And this sexual liberty that they carried out was not something 01:01:00that I had any experience or understanding of. The way that they were really true to their core of any sort of sexuality is good. It's all awesome. They celebrated everybody. And while they were by definition a lesbian activism group, they happily accepted anybody. Like I said, there weren't men present, but if there had been a man's thing, it probably would not have been as inclusive as the Avengers were. The Avengers were anything queer, and the queerer, the better. It really allowed them to speak for everybody in a really awesome way. I wish it still existed. It was so fun.

STUDENT 1: So you, being a gay men, just felt like you're part of it no matter what?

BP: Oh yeah. Didn't care. I didn't feel like an other to them at all. But again, I didn't want to insert myself into their functions because I respected them as, usually, a group of women. It wasn't really my place to be like "Yay, I'm an Avenger." It never would have occurred to me to call myself an Avenger at that time.

STUDENT 1: What was your favorite activist movement that you guys did? Or event?

BP: I wasn't a part of it, but when they went to the basketball game and were advocating for the women on the team that were on the verge of coming out. They were star players. Boky was amazing. There were several that were incredible. 01:03:00But I was really taken with Boky. She was all that and more. Their coach was telling them to suppress their identity and to not be out. "Don't be out. Don't cause any-don't talk about your girlfriend. Don't get photo'd in public." And this was coming from a lesbian woman who was just deeply closeted.

They wanted to rattle that cage. They did it really effectively. They went and rolled out banners at the game. And at the time, we had a really incredible women's basketball team. It was very public what they would do. You can imagine going into that arena that's packed with people and unfurling this big banner that says "Lesbians Love Beavs" was just pretty intense, pretty thrilling. It 01:04:00was aggressive, but it was necessary. It was a good thing to start that conversation the way they did. And it helped the people all around there, because that stadium was half full of lesbian women at the time, I'm quite sure. Just to be visible, to speak up, was really cool. That probably was my favorite of what they did.

A lot of them were just really scary, maybe not as fun as that one. So that's why that one would be my favorite.

STUDENT 1: Were you ever involved in one that you were scared doing or anything like that?

BP: The only ones I was really involved with were just when we would be in the quad and doing the fire-eating thing and passing out condoms. But that was more 01:05:00so, for me, just a part of the LGBA thing that I was doing. Just having people walk by, these parents that were bring their kids to campus for the very first time and you could tell they were touring the school and they were walking through the campus. And here's these gays in the middle and just covering their eyes and "Oh my gosh, I don't know if we'd bring this kid here. Argh." That could be pretty intense.

But I wasn't really a part of any of the ones that I think were really scary. They went to one-I can't remember the name of the group-. And it was a basically a Christian conservative men's group that they went and sort of infiltrated this giant stadium in Eugene, and got politely asked to leave and escorted out. That 01:06:00would have been too scary for me. But, yeah.

STUDENT 1: If you were to go back, would you join those? Like would you have done the crazier ones?

BP: Absolutely. Yeah, now I would. At the time, I kind of had my own life and my own distractions. And again, I didn't really view myself as an Avenger. I lived with them. But now, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

STUDENT 1: And throughout college, doing keynote speaking, future things you wish would happen. What would you wish to see change in the US right now, towards different minority groups and whatnot?

BP: I think we still need to move past classifying and defining people in general. It's just weird that we're still doing it. Bathroom bills and whatnot 01:07:00are just absolutely ridiculous. If anything, they're just a distraction just to get the people "Look over here, look over here! Trans people." And meanwhile, all these other stuff is happening that no one's even noticing because they're being distracted. I think it's just a matter of distraction. I wish we would move away from that. Really, I think it's much ado about nothing.

If someone identifies as a certain way and then later on changes their mind, it really is no one's business. No one owes anyone their identity. I wish we would just look at people as human beings, and just start moving past color or gender, all of it. It's sort of pointless to keep dividing people up into more and more categories. It is important that people still be vocal about who they are and 01:08:00stand up as a trans person, and stand up as a gay man, and stand up as a non-conforming person, however it may be. Just add that diversity to life. But those definitions shouldn't come as the first word in defining somebody or talking about somebody, like I was saying "my black friend Sarah" or whatever. Just annoying.

STUDENT 1: Do you think that activism, like Lesbian Avengers, the way they took things, if someone do that now, what do you think the public reaction would be to it?

BP: I have no idea. Somewhat the same. I think there are a lot of things that haven't changed that much. They used to ride bikes topless through town, which was hilarious. It was just so funny. And, again, it was comedy but it was also making a point, like "why is the female breast such an issue." I don't think 01:09:00that we've evolved from that at all. People still flip out about women breastfeeding in public. So, I'm not sure that issue has necessarily changed all that much. And if they were to reform and ride their bikes topless through town, they probably would have the same reaction that they had then. Probably would be the exact same thing, I would imagine. Unfurling banner at the basketball game, maybe not important anymore? Maybe not so much? I'm not sure.

Student 1: Now, with future things do you think that if someone-how do you put this. I lost it. Let's just take it back to a random sidenote. During the AIDS 01:10:00epidemic-in the '80s, right-did that ever carry over, or were you ever aware of it when you were younger?

BP: Absolutely. I grew up in a period where my adolescence was when AIDS was coming to light. And Ryan White was a big issue. He was a hemophiliac kid who got it through a blood transfusion. And they didn't want him in the school. He went through all this hell of being looked at as this terrible thing. His family was getting death threats and all that. A very marginalized kid who was otherwise just a little kid. I remember that really well. But there was so much more misinformation at that point. It was still being promoted as a gay disease, 01:11:00and that it was God's way of correcting the gay issue, if you would.

When I was little, I remember being really afraid when I got sick, because I figured maybe I had AIDS. I didn't want to go to the doctor because then they'd find out that I was gay. And this whole thing would unravel. It's hard to imagine now-it seems so silly. But kids live with crazy little fears. I remember that being very real to me because I knew I was a gay kid. And I figured that I would get AIDS just because I was having impure thoughts about me. That's all that I understood: gay people got AIDS and I'm gay, so I'm probably going to get it and it would be my punishment. Which is a terrible thing for a little kid to live with.

Unfortunately, like Corvallis, we did a lot to promote safer sex. We were 01:12:00constantly passing out condoms and dental dams and whatnot, and talking about it, trying to educate people about it, trying to make it known that it isn't really just a gay disease. And again, the Avengers were amazing at that safer sex kind of activism. But it wasn't really something that was talked about. At the time, it was probably more of an urban issue.

I remember going to the doctor to get tested. And my doctor was like "Oh AIDS doesn't really exist here. You don't need to worry about this." My doctor almost talked me out of getting tested for it because he didn't think that it was an issue in Corvallis. And that sort of strikes me as like "Okay." I still went ahead and did it because I was about to enter a relationship with somebody. I just wanted the paperwork. That's just the proper way of if you're going to be in a relationship with somebody, and you're not going to have protective sex, it 01:13:00should come through paperwork. So, that's why I did it. I wasn't worried about having HIV because I really hadn't that much of any sexual experience and certainly nothing that was risky at the time. But just good to know your status. But again, HIV education and awareness is still sort of, especially at the time, was something that was just nonexistent here.

STUDENT 1: And did you ever continue with religion? Or, after high school, did that just leave?

BP: Not really. I didn't go to church when I came here. I don't really question my faith. I don't necessarily have faith. I don't not have faith. I'm quite comfortable with how I view my spirituality. But I've never continued with it in 01:14:00any sort of organized manner.

STUDENT 1: And we'll just kind of go over again. Anything else you have that you would like to bring up? Do you think we've covered most of what you would like to say?

BP: Yeah, I guess so. I wish I had a better memory. When Derek and Julie and I got together and were talking about this, we couldn't remember dates or anything. It's been twenty-something years, which is crazy to me. If it weren't for the scrapbooks, I wouldn't remember much of any of it. It's kind of a blur in a sense. And I was a really sober person at the time. So, I don't even have that to blame it on.

But, yeah. It's neat to see the evolution that has happened here at OSU. I'm still excited to learn more about what's done and the diversity that is now part of this campus, as far as queer awareness, it's cool. I can't believe how far it's come from when we were here, working with dimes. I don't have much else, I don't think.

STUDENT 1: Alright. I guess we'll just end the video. Awesome.