Cloe McMichael Oral History Interview, March 9, 2024

JOZIE BILLINGS: Today is March 9th, 2024. I'm here with Cloe McMichael over zoom, and I'm in, Corvallis today. Where are you at today?

CLOE MCMICHAEL: I'm in Corvallis as well.

JB: My name is Jozie Billings, and we are doing this interview as a part of my honors thesis project, Beyond the Binary. Welcome to the interview. Thank you for coming. All right.

CM: Thank you.

JB: Yeah. So, to start, do you just want to reiterate for the interview how you identify what your pronouns are?

CM: Yeah. So, I identify, I guess, like, as, woman, but more of, like, a non-binary woman, I guess, because, like, I don't, I don't know, I'm in a weird place with my own identity, I guess. But I do use she/they pronouns. Because I'm trying to move away from, like, being, like, gendered as, like a full woman. Like I don't want to be seen as just a woman anymore. And so I'm trying to move away from like that.

JB: And that you also said in the survey that you identify as two-spirit, is that still true?

CM: Yes. Yes, yes.

JB: Okay. Just wanted to make sure before I started asking you about that. So to start, why don't you talk about your childhood for a bit? Maybe like when you started to, like, question your gender, like what activities you're involved in as a kid, any formative experiences? Stuff like that?

CM: Yeah. So I grew up on the, Confederated Tribes of the Umatilla Indian Reservation. That's out in eastern Oregon. It's right outside of Pendleton. And growing up, like, until I was like five, I really didn't know a lot about my culture or where I like where I came from or anything like that. And then when I was five, like, we really got immersed into, like, our culture and like, what we call [Umatilla word], which is like basically our church. And during that time, it was like really... that's when I kind of, like, started to decide that I wasn't just like, I didn't just want to be a girl anymore, because in our culture, it's really like gendered, like men have like their roles and then women have their roles. And like, I felt so restricted. Just like being confined to, like, women's roles. I was like, it's felt weird to me to, like, know that, like, that's all I could do. I couldn't, like, go out and hunt like a man or like I, I wasn't supposed to go out and fish like a man. And so that's when I was kind of like, maybe I don't want to just be a girl anymore. And so that's kind of when it started. And like, I grew up, like mostly just doing those girl roles and, like, learning all of those things. And then once I got into high school was when I was, like, more taking on, like, my two-spirit identity and, like, going into the community and, like, doing these male roles so that, like, I could not just be seen as a woman anymore. And, it kind of really all fell into place when I was a junior in high school. That's when I kind of left the constraints of, like, what my culture said I could, could do, and I started to do all of the things that I wanted to. And so that's kind of when I, like, took on my, like, two-spirit identity. Just because I had, like, this feeling growing up that, like, I shouldn't have to choose what I want to do. Like, I can do it all if I like, if I can, why not, you know? And so that's kind of where it came from. Along with, like, my parents growing up, always like, told me that they wanted a boy. And like, they always told me like, you were our last chance to have a boy. And then you came out a girl. And so I always, like, kind of had this like, undertone feeling of like, I should have a boy. And like, growing up too, like, my parents would always tell me like, oh, like, this would have been your name if you're a boy and like, your dad really wanted a boy. And so I would always, like, be trying to, like, fulfill that role for my dad of, like, being his, like, what's the word like in, "intern-son" almost of, like doing all the things that like a son would do and like trying to, like, be that for my dad, not that like he was asking me to or anything, but I kind of just, like, felt like I needed to fulfill that role for him. Yeah. That was kind of like where it all came from, I guess.

JB: Yeah. So you mentioned that you kind of started in high school, I think it was, you started doing things that you wanted to do. What were those things?

CM: So, like growing up in the culture, like, women are kind of put into the role of, like, having to, like, cook and, like, gather the foods and all of that. And men are more put in a role of, like having to, like, build sweat, which is like, cultural thing that we do for, basically like to, to clean our, our spirits and stuff and like, they take care of that and like, doing the hunting and the fishing and like, learning all of the songs and like, things like that. And so I wanted to, like, take on that role to, like, be the provider for my, like, my family and like being able to, like, know those things, to be able to pass them on. Because one thing in my life that, like, I've really tried to do is like, learn my culture to pass it on. And I like, couldn't do that if I wasn't like a two-spirit like I couldn't learn both sides. And so that's kind of why I really wanted to like, learn the other side of like the songs and, and how to hunt and where to hunt and all of those things, in my culture that I wouldn't be able to learn without taking on, like, masculine qualities.

JB: Yeah. That's cool. So, you mentioned, like, you wanted to learn the masculine roles and you saw - or like your you wanted to fulfill that role for your father - I was kind of wondering if you had any role models for, like, that type of masculinity. If it was your father or maybe somebody else?

CM: Yeah. So, there's, there's one other two-spirit person that, like, I know of in my community and like the one moment that I remember, like in high school when I like, decided that I was that's what I was, was, I was a part of this, like, art group, and we did a lot of, like, screen printing. And so, I was doing an art show and this two-spirit man-like, this two-spirit person came in and like, was talking to me and just telling me that, like, I can be whatever I want to be in, like, really just telling me that, like, being a two-spirit is okay and like that being that in the community, like, isn't a bad thing. Because like during that time and like still now like two-spirit identity really isn't prevalent within my community. And a lot of people don't like, see it as... there's a lot of homophobia, like, let's just put it that way. And so, like, he really, like, made me feel okay with, like, who I was. And so like, he's basically my role model of like, it's okay to be what I want to be, you know? So, him and then my uncle, my, my mom's brother has, since I was a child, basically like, took me under his wing and, like, taught me all that he knows about, like, the, the masculine side of our culture. And, he's like, the reason that, like, I am learning how to hunt and learning all of these, teachings from the male side of our culture.

JB: Cool. Very fun. And I love uncles, they're always so good.

CM: I know, and he knew from the beginning too, like, when I like came out. He was like, that's old news, like I already knew that. You really thought you needed to tell me? You know, like, well, I don't know, like I felt like I needed to.

JB: That's awesome, so what was your coming out process like?

CM: Well, I like, was really, really scared to come out to my parents, honestly, because my mom, she's really, she has like that old style of thinking, I would say. And like, I didn't come out to my parents until the beginning of last year. And like, I basically, I, like, shaved my head. And then my parents were like, whoa, what are you doing? Like what? And then that's kind of I was just like, yeah. Yeah. And then I, like, came out to them and they were like, we it was really hard for us, honestly. We I didn't talk to my mom for probably almost four months just because she was, she just wasn't okay with it within herself. And, then I had to sit down and have a conversation with her of, like, mom, I'm not like, a different person. Like, I'm, I've been this, you just know now. And once I had that conversation with her, she was much more okay with it. She was like, well, since you put it that way. And I was like, I've been this since I was a kid, mom, you just know.

JB: So you said you shaved your head. I have also shaved my head. I thought it was a great feeling. How did that feel like for you? And maybe, what were other, like, euphoric things that you have done that, like, related to your gender?

CM: It was like, honestly, so freeing for me. Like when I shaved my head, it was just like, I felt like all of the, like, layers of, like, not trauma, but like, I guess kind of trauma of, like, I didn't know who I was, and like, I wanted to be this person, but felt like I couldn't. And then once I shaved my head, I felt like I could just be who I wanted. And there was no like, there was like, nothing holding me back. And yeah, it just felt really freeing. And then I think another moment of like, euphoria for me and my gender would, would be going back into my community with my shaved head and like, taking on a different role than I was before. Because going back in, a lot of people were like, whoa, like who are-? Like a lot of people didn't know who I was. And like, I felt like I was like reintroducing myself a lot because they were like, they just like, didn't recognize me. And so I think that was like another moment of like, euphoria because I felt like I could introduce myself as, like a new person almost, of like, I'm not who I was before. And like, I guess I still am that, but I'm like a different person now with that. Like, as my history.

JB: This might kind of be the same answer as what you just told me. But when have you felt most at home in your body?

CM: I think honestly, like being in Corvallis was like one of the first times, like I felt like okay with, like, my gender and like who I was just because. It's just like everyone here is like, so accepting and like, you really can just be whoever you want. And so I think, yeah, like being in Corvallis and like being able to just like, like not have to, like, hide who I am in a way was like the most freeing moment for me.

JB: Okay. Yeah. How, how else has your time at OSU been for you?

CM: I think it's been, overall really positive. I did have a few moments where, like, being Indigenous, like, not not being queer, but just being Indigenous has, like, put some, like, pressures on me just from, like, folks, like, in classes and stuff, just like saying things that are kind of like racist. But like my overall experience with, like my gender in Corvallis has been like, really, really positive and like, just like helped me come out of my shell, I guess. And like, yeah, I come out of my shell because being back home, it's like, you can't really like, be open as open about it as, like you can here. It's more of like the people who accept you, you can be open with. But when you're around people who don't accept it, you have to like put on this show. And so, yeah, being here is like, I can just be me all the time.

JB: Can I ask what your major is?

CM: I have a double degree in history and ethnic studies with a minor in Indigenous studies.

JB: Wow. Oh, what do you, what do you want to do with that?

CM: Eventually, I hope to profess in Indigenous studies and, yeah, like, be a professor. But if not that, I really love history, and I want to be a historian for my tribe. Just because I think that history is really important, especially for Indigenous people. And a lot of the times, the history that we're recording is in a way that's not true to, like, our culture. And so I really want to help integrate like, oral history back into, like, the way we record history in like, on a reservation and, like, Indigenous history, like, in, in a whole, just because oral history is so important and like, as you, you know, taking oral history right now, you can get so much from it just from like an hour interview. And I think it's really important to just, like reintegrate that back into like recording history.

JB: Yeah, that sounds really cool. Yeah, oral history is great. I have done a lot of these interviews. So, you mentioned that you, like, felt more comfortable being who you, like coming out of your shell in Corvallis. So, like, how do you think it would be if you went back, like, if you were to be your tribal historian and you lived there full time?

CM: I think it would definitely be. There would be a very long like transition period of like me having to like tell people like, no, like I'm, I'm not a "she" like, I go by "they" and like a lot of that turmoil of like people accepting who I am and like not like reverting back to like, who I was, just because, like, even like for my mentor that I was talking about earlier. Like, they go through a lot of, times in their community where they're like, just not going to go to that because like a certain ceremony because they know, like people will be there that are going to like, call them by their dead name and like, say these things to them that like, just are unnecessary. So, a lot of like moments like that of going into places where I know, like it's not going to be the most positive, but like, I have to put myself in that position to make those other people understand that what they're doing is wrong.

JB: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. This is not really the greatest transition, but I realize I skipped a question. Have you been, like, involved in any online spaces or like, social media and how have those influenced your gender?

CM: I mean, like, I personally like I go on social media, but it's not like I'm not really that active, honestly, in social media. But, yeah, I think, being in space, like, in the same spaces as, like my mentor, like, on Facebook, has really helped me like, understand like, because they post a lot of, like, activism things and just like, about their own identity and like their own journey has, like, helped me, me understand my own and helped me realize that, like, I'm not alone just because being from such a small place and like a place where a lot of people aren't queer, it's, it's kind of like isolating. And, so, knowing that, like, I'm not the only person on my reservation that's going through this has like, made it like, not as isolating.

JB: Yeah, yeah, that's nice. Sorry, that was rude, "that's nice." Okay, so let's talk about your object now. What did you bring today?

CM: I was going to. Sorry, I don't have it. Let me grab it.

JB: You're good, you're good.

CM: I was gonna bring this muffler, and so it's basically, a muffler is just like, a big bandana. And, I brought this as my object because. We use these as, like, head coverings in my in my culture. And so when I shaved my head a lot of the time when I was home, I would just be wearing this, this head covering, because it kind of in a way, like hid what was going on underneath it because it's so long. It kind of gives the illusion that you have hair under there. And so when I would go back, and when I went back into my community and was going to like these ceremonies and things, I would always be wearing this one because it was like, it was, like, almost like a security blanket in a sense of like, well, if I have this on, like, people won't be able to like, say mean things to me or like, it was a way to like protect myself from, like, the homophobia that I was going to be like, going into and like experiencing in those spaces. And then now I kind of have, like, taken it back to my- back to me and like, started wearing them as a way to, like, express myself and, like, use the colors to, like, help me, like on a daily basis. Remember that. Like, it's okay and like, I'm happy with who I am. And so, I've kind of like taken it from like a security blanket to, like a way to express myself through, like, the colors and, the patterns on them.

JB: Yeah. It's really beautiful. Is there anything like particular about the colors or patterns that is meaningful or you're drawn to?

CM: This one specifically, it's the flowers on it. One, one like thing my dad always used to tell me when I was a child was like, whenever I feel stressed or like, like anxiety, I have to, like, stop and smell the roses and, like, smell the flowers. And so every time I, like, have those moments of, like, being so anxious and, like, feeling like I was going to, like, throw up because I was like, so anxious in these, like, in these, like, ceremonial settings that like, I could just, like, know that these flowers are on my head and just be like, okay, like, let's just take a second and take a deep breath and like, it will be okay.

JB: That's nice. Well I think I've covered most of my questions, is there anything else you wanted to share?

CM: Not really. I guess I could share, like, just the way... I guess I kind of did that, but just like, the way that I see two-spirit within, like, my own identity is like, I see it as a way to embody both sides of my culture and, like, both sides, like both masculine and feminine. And so, I can be masculine and feminine at the same time and not have to choose one side. I think that's like one of the most important things about, like, me being two-spirit is not having to choose which side of my culture that I'm going to make important.

JB: Yeah. How do you how do you see your gender? I guess, like, not outside your culture, but like, not within the context of your culture, like here in Corvallis, maybe.

CM: Like here in Corvallis, I, I like to be seen as like... I like to be seen as the grey area, you know, like, people can look at me and, like, not know right away if, like, I'm a girl or a boy, I don't like the feeling of, like, automatically like being gendered by someone. And so, I like to feel like my appearance and like the way that I carry myself doesn't gender me. Just because, yeah, I like to be seen as both, like, masculine and feminine.

JB: What kind of, what kind of clothes or stuff do you like to wear, day-to-day basis?

CM: I wear a lot of, a lot of layers. I always wear, I'll always be wearing a long sleeve. Unless it's like 80 degrees. I'll be wearing a long sleeve underneath a short-sleeved t-shirt. And then I always, I don't wear any fitting clothes. Like, ever since I was young. Like, I did not like to wear fitting clothes. And so, I wear a lot of, like, baggy clothes, a lot of baggy clothes and layers.

JB: Okay. Anything else?

CM: Not really, I don't think.

JB: Okay, cool. Thank you. If you think of anything else, let me know.