Aubree Kellar Oral History Interview, February 17, 2024

JOZIE BILLINGS: All right. Today is February 17th, 2024. I'm here with Aubree Kellar over zoom, and I am in Corvallis, Oregon today. Where are you at today?

AUBREE KELLAR: I'm also in Corvallis.

JB: Okay. My name is Jozie Billings, and we're doing this interview as a part of my honors thesis project, Beyond the Binary. Welcome to the interview. All right, so do you just want to reiterate for the interview how you identify and what your pronouns are?

AK: I identify largely as a trans woman. I use she/her, for the most part.

JB: Okay. So let's start at the beginning with your childhood. Do you want to just walk me through that? Like, what some experiences were? What activities you were involved in? Were there any, like, really formative experiences for your gender?

AK: Yeah. So, I mean, obviously. So, you know, I was born AMAB, and my cat is in-i'm good at speaking. And my family is pretty aggressively Catholic. And so, so it was, it wasn't really like, an option at all for, like, any, in any capacity. Like I said, I wasn't I really, like, really considered until like freshman year of high school, I started feeling like a little bit weird about it. Like, I was like, I was like, at some point, like, confusing it for like, like, like just like being, like, interested in girls as far as, like, you know, like wanting to, like, be with them, but like that, after I thought about it some more, I was kind of feeling weird about it. But I didn't really know, like, trans, being trans was like a thing at all until, I started looking like more online. And so, I graduated 2021. And so, by about 2020, I so, you know, during the pandemic, I, you know, everyone had a ton of time and all of a sudden, I feel like I had this time to, like, look at this thing, and like, think about it more. So, previously in high school, I was just doing, like, so I was doing, FRC first robotics program, and I was doing really I was just going really aggressively in school, and I feel like I just, like, didn't leave myself, like, space to think about that at all. But, you know, everything kind of went to a standstill. And so I finally took the time to like really like think it through. And so around, I want to say like December 2020-ish, I was identifying as non-binary, trying to use they/them pronouns, but I didn't quite feel right. But it felt like just like a super, just like a huge jump to jump from, like, AMAB, identifying as male, going straight to like, trans femme. And so I was just feeling really weird about that. And so I just want like the in-between for a bit and then for a while, and then after that, for a while identify with she/they. And then I was switched more or less just to she/her for the most part, that felt the most right. Yeah. I feel like that's like a very general, like, rundown. Is that more or less helpful?

JB: Yeah. That that was a very broad thing. I'm going to try and maybe, like, narrowing in on a couple things. You're good. It's all good information. So did you have any, like, role models as a kid? Especially because you say you identify as trans femme. Did you have any, like, models of femininity that you followed in any way?

AK: Not really, to be honest. In a lot of ways I feel like I'm still very much like, not like following any like, role model that I just kind of just like figuring it out. My mom. Yeah. My mom... my mom is not someone who I would consider, like someone I would want to, like, be a lot of, like, in some capacity. If that makes sense. But other than that, so I guess not really much as far as, like, role models go, I liked a lot of, like, really like big, like, male role models, but, it was mostly like in the big things. Not even like gender. Just like more like gender-, like gendered like activities. Almost like the robotics I mentioned. I was like, working a lot of, like, cars and stuff, which, like I still do to a large part, a lot of like, male gendered-like-activities almost. And so, I think that like, was like the basis of, like who I thought it was. And you, I still kind of am.

JB: Can you talk more about those role models you said you had?

AK: I mean, mostly just like my dad. I would say that I'm definitely closer with my dad and also like, like, like mentors that, like, robotics is like a huge thing for like four years. So forgive me, I'll bring it up a lot apparently. So there is my dad and there was, like the mages of robotics. who taught me like machining and stuff like that. So, for a really long time I really wanted to do, like machining. I still kind of do. So that's like milling down like pieces of metal. Yeah. So I guess, I don't know. I feel like mentorship isn't like a huge part of-or sorry not mentorship-role models where it's like a huge part of, like. What I was aspiring to or like what I was like looking for, if that makes sense.

JB: Yeah. Okay. You keep on talking about robotics, which is great. So I'm going to get into that a little bit more. You mentioned that you're like, kind of drawn to more like, masculine activities. And yet you identify more of a feminine way. Is that, do you feel any, like, disconnect between those at all, or are you just, like, happy doing what you're doing?

AK: I think I felt a ton of disconnect around that at first. Where just all my friends were, male and everything I did was very like traditional male activities. Like, I don't do anything like, I, you know, I'm not. I like I still am, like, super like, not that good, like, with make up or anything like that. And like, you know, I was, I was pulling up my hair with the zip tie, which you shouldn't do, but I still kind of do it sometimes. Where like, it it felt like it was. I felt like, really weird about it at first, but it's also at the same time. Like what? Like I it's what I really like, enjoy. And I feel like I found a community more so now that is also some of the things that isn't like a super like traditionally male community. And so I feel, I feel fine about it now. It's just like it's just like what I'm interested in what I do. But I mean, it still feels somewhat just because like all like my friends and stuff are, this point, are, the vast, vast majority of my friends are trans, so I don't really feel like I have that many, like, cis-female friends. So I feel like I still feel like a bit of, like disconnect from there, but I don't think that really matters at this point. Anyway. I feel I'm pretty comfortable with where I am now.

JB: Why do you not feel like that matters?

AK: Oh, I mean, it matters, but it's, I mean, my priority isn't fitting in with the traditional female, like mass or whatever. That's not the correct word, but, I feel like my priority is just trying to like my own slice and like what feels most comfortable. And I don't particularly care if that-trans femme is what I would call it in the vast, vast, vast majority of people were like, no, this is like the super easy solution. But I don't know if I strictly identify with that in the closest ways possible. Definitely trans-femme leaning. But I still don't feel like I don't like totally there, if that makes sense.

JB: Yeah. No. That does. And I get what you're saying about not identifying with like mainstream like cis-het femininity and stuff. I feel like that makes a lot of sense. So can you, I know you mentioned it before, but can you talk a little bit more about what your gender exploration process was like?

AK: It was. It felt very secretive for a really long time for issues like, Catholic household, my household still, my siblings are, my parents are still by no means accepting or anything. And so it just felt like really like it almost felt like any, like any sort of exploration I did was almost like, like I had to be completely hidden. I couldn't do anything past that. And so it was, you know, like trying to, like, do, like make up or like trying out things like in, like my car at, like the Benton County Fairgrounds or something, like, go away from home. And I was also spending like a ton of time in my car so I could, like, try and have just like a third space almost the way such like for like experimentation. So, like I owned-so my first car is my $500 Volkswagen Passat, that I fought hornets out of it. So I was kind of. And so I was doing DoorDash with that, and I was doing probably like 10 to 12 hours a day in that car, because if I was out DoorDashing, then I wasn't at home and like trying to, like, deal with all of that. And so I was so that I loved that car for a really long time. And then it's, it doesn't really matter, but it, it broke down, and then my parents made me sell it before I left for Montana State. Because I, I transferred up from up from there to OSU. Which is silly because I lived in Corvallis, I transferred to Montana, then came back to Corvallis. Yeah. Sorry. Get getting back on topic. So it's a lot of like, trying to find, like, third spaces or like, carving, trying to, like, carve out places to, like, try and, like, see, experiment that wasn't home or if it was home, like, super like balled up my. Or like, in, like the locked bathroom and like, like hiding like a skirt. Like under my shirt before. Like making, like the run to the bathroom to try it on, if that makes sense. And so once I left for Montana, I spent so much money on, like, femme clothes and like, like because, like, even, like when I was out to my because, like, I was out to my parents. I was still getting, like, male clothes from them. And I just like, what the fuck am I going to do with these? Sorry, I don't know if I can swear.

JB: No, you're good, you can swear.

AK: And so I just so I still have like, this, like, massive bin of, like, brand new, like, male clothes from my parents. And, like, I don't know what to do with these. And so it's. And so I spent a ton of my own money on a bunch of, like, femme clothes and then and so Montana. So once I was in Montana, I feel like I really like, found, like my, aesthetic almost. If that makes sense or like feeling what feels like more comfortable. Like, before I left for Montana, I had like one outfit that I felt good about and I just kind of like iterated on that almost from there and just like, build up to something that I felt like that felt like more like personal or like more like what felt good. And it feels like since that it's just like iterating on that. Does that make sense?

JB: Yeah, no. So, you mentioned you found outfits that felt good to you. Can you talk more about, like, what is euphoric to you in terms of your gender and, maybe, what it's also dysphoric.

AK: So I wear skirts. The only time I'm not wearing a skirt at this point is like I'm sleeping. And so that's, like, a big thing for me. And, like, I've kind of fallen, like, almost like, accidentally into, like, a more like, goth aesthetic. And so it's really interesting because, like, I'm not sure if it's that. If it's like, if I like, I definitely like, like the look of that and everything, but I it's, it's plays in with like my weight almost where it feels like I don't know if like I'm like it was like try to like obfuscate that if that makes sense. Trying to make that less visible. So I'm trying to lose weight. So curious to see how that how I work with that. But for the time being it's like a pretty like, goth alternative, even though, like, I don't like, identify with any of those labels, but that's definitely what people would call. And then when I look up when I'm looking for clothes. Because like, I don't consider myself as part of in those communities or anything. I don't listen to, like, goth music or anything. I just like, I think it looks pretty decent on me, which is the, which is nice. So yeah. And then so yeah, I wear a lot of skirts and dresses. I have a big problem with jeans as far as dysphoria goes. I don't like how they look. The, for this is. This is. Yeah. I just don't like how they look. I feel like I just like they just, like, don't work for me or like myself. Yeah. Dysphoric, you know, trying to trying to get away from that for so long now. Dysphoria, for a long part was just like, like the, really really early transition before, like, I found, like an aesthetic or, like, what I thought looked good or like what I thought works for me. I feel like that's like most, like, aggressive, like dysphoric period ever. Just like all this, like, weird iterating. And it just all feels terrible and like, it makes me like it almost makes me want to go back to like, AMAB-ness or like that felt like, it's still sucked, but like it felt like I wasn't iterating on something. It wasn't like getting worse if that makes sense. There's like this, like, I, I feel like it's like a meme now, like really, really transition for everyone. It's just like. Or at least this has been my experience with all my friends is just, like, kind of terrible. And it just felt terrible for me. And I feel like that was like the most, like, aggressive dysphoria I had especially for like, HRT or anything. And I think I started working before I really know what I was doing, I was just like, I was just like stuffing, like skirts down my pants and then going out DoorDashing and just like. And so, like, you take off the pants, this way you can have a skirt on, but it's just like, it's just like, you know, it felt terrible, you know, it felt like I needed to, like, figure this stuff out. At the same time, I didn't feel like there's a light at the end of the tunnel or anything. It just felt like really, like, there was like going back towards AMAB was bad, going forward felt bad at the time and I just felt like I was really stuck during that. And that also was like the context of like feeling of like, you know, true like, you know, we're still in a pandemic, true, like really aggressive. No one really knew anything yet kind of thing. And I was and so like, it's just like overall suck really bad, I guess.

JB: Yeah. Oh, that doesn't sound great. I have a friend who also kind of struggled with that, like, accepting the, like, transition to femininity is, like, the best thing for them, even though it felt, like, really hard in a way. But you, you spoke about it in the past tense, do you think you're, like, past that now?

AK: For the most part. I feel like I am in the most part past that, but I am past, I'm like in this comfortable pocket where like, I'm happy with where this is for, like, iterating past that pocket still doesn't feel great, if that makes sense, almost. Where like I'm very comfortable with what I wear now, you know, I repeat the same ten outfits, you know, for the last like two years straight or whatever and iterating past that. it's either it goes well or it goes, it's, you know, something. I mean, you know, occasionally there's a win, that's the whole point of iterating, right? But like, between all of those wins you lose, I have, there's a lot of things that just don't quite work, or just like things like I bought or tried and like I won't wear or like changes of like how I thought I would identify, like they didn't work out. So going back to this like pocket if that makes sense.

JB: Yeah. I feel like that makes sense. So, you mentioned your family was Catholic. You don't have to get into that more if you don't want to. But were there any other significant influences on your gender like that could be your religion, but maybe like a job you had, like where you were raised? Anything like that.

AK: So like, so can you, can you? So what else could influence my gender? Like where I was raised, like religion or anything.

JB: Yeah. Just like any other major influences on your gender.

AK: I feel like a lot of, like, influence was. I don't know, in person influences were like, I know, like I already mentioned, like you've seen like cis-women or like even like other trans women at my high school. If that makes sense where it felt like I want it to be that but didn't really explore it. I didn't really know what that meant or anything at the time. And then all the other pressure was aggressively male. I mean, I still [indistinguishable] with my parents very much so have-or had, at most point still have an aggressive like, you're male, you're going to go to engineering school, you're going to go graduate and you're going to a male job or whatever. And so, I feel like there's a lot of pressure from that. And then obviously being Catholic, or at least my church, ["]my church["] feels weird. I haven't been there in like three years. But the church that definitely my parents went to, that wasn't. That wasn't an option at all, transitioning or anything, thinking about that. And so between so the only like really in-person thing I would have to say was just like seeing other women or like are like my like, my female friends, so I guess like the vast majority-And this also ties back, sorry, I'm going to bring this up because apparently, like, I guess it makes sense as I was transitioning like during like peak pandemic period, but, you know, a lot of it felt like it was online influences because, partially because, because like, partially everyone was super online at the time.

JB: Yeah, do want to talk more about that, what influence online space has had?

AK: Yeah. So, at the most part, it's looking at trans spaces on, like, Reddit and stuff, which is terrible. Reddit is terrible. It's all terrible. And so, from there I started looking at like, trans discord services, which is also terrible. I strongly believe that a purely like trans discord server is like the worst place you can be on discord, because it's just like everyone-okay, maybe, maybe it's again, maybe this like peak pandemic, but like, everyone is just, like miserable and like, there's no one that can help each other because we're all like a thousand miles away from each other. There's no advantage there. But, you know, I didn't know that at the time. And so, I felt like, a lot of, like, my first, like, trans, like, looking at this stuff was like, oh, I guess miserable because it was like all of these people who were super dysphoric and, like, everyone was just, like, stuck. And no one could really, like, help each other there, cause its a bunch of teenagers on a discord server. And it's like, oh, what are we going to do? And so, in some it, you know, it was definitely good to like, get like that community and be able to talk through what I was thinking at the time, but at the same time in, like. I almost wish that like the start off, to any sort of like transition would be more joyful. Is that make sense? But I don't think I mean, like, I don't know that many people. I don't know if anyone's fun, like, had a joyful start. I feel like it almost really starts in a really dark place, which makes a lot of these spaces I think feel very negative for the most part. And so, from there, I feel like that public discord server, which is always terrible. My twin, he was friends with a bunch of people in, like, a summer camp, which isn't like a queer summer camp, but it definitely was like a lot of queers in a summer camp, if that makes sense. And so, Eric reached out to them because he was, like, the only person I knew who would who was aware of, like, gender queer people or like, for the most part, even like gay people. So, he reached out to them and that discord - apparently my entire life is on discord - so he reached out on that on this discord server. There, I was I kind of made friends with, like, those people. And I talk with them in a lot more constructive, a lot more just like people like friends is suppose like a public space. A lot more like it feels wrong, but like a lot more like close, close period work. I also like, talk through a lot of things and like get help from there. And so, and we're still very much so like just like a bunch of teenagers who can't help each other. But it felt less like just a bunch of just like people just like all be miserable in the same place and felt like an actual friend group, if that makes sense.

JB: Yeah, no, that does make sense. So you mentioned that the beginning of your transition or for many transitions wasn't very joyful. Do you think you've been able to find examples of joy or even create your own since then?

AK: Oh, absolutely. Just like seeing myself in a mirror for the most part, still feels joyful now, if that makes sense. For the most part, it's still like, just seeing myself feels like, oh, this feels more right. This feels more accurate. Like I feel like I am a much more like confident person. I'm much more able to, like, interact with the world, for where I am now. And like, you know, I've seen them, like a lot of my friends too, were just like not doing good for the most part, until people began transitioning. Like you can see, HRT take effect. You actually can see a lot of people, just like all of a sudden like that, they turn back on. If that makes sense. With this really dark period quickly you can see reaching back out and like being close, like more functional to how you knew them before. Like this, before these really like hit them, if that makes sense. Especially cause, like, a lot of my trans friends were all cis in high school or like, kind of went through like a similar, like, timing, if that makes sense, at where I did.

JB: Yeah, well, that makes sense. Did you like help anyone else through their transition?

AK: I'm definitely giving advice to some friends about like HRT and stuff, like in my in-person friends. I think I was the first one to go on HRT. That sounded really certain, I know. Let me think about it. I think I was the first person to go on HRT in any of my in-person friends, which, you know, was only really helpful for trans femmes. You know, I can give really hot takes about trans masc, that's not that helpful. So to my trans femme friends, I feel like I was helpful. Or I feel like I was able to help with, like, initial how it, like, cause, like, were going back, it feels terrible. Because, like, there's like this, like just like sea of feeling like complete shit before your hormones really ever switch female. Where there's this gully almost where its like extremely mood swingy, extremely like, it just feels terrible. And so, like, be like, talk through people with that and refer friends to, uh... I first got my HRT through Planned Parenthood because I was eighteen and then I switched to the Corvallis Clinic. That doesn't really matter. But I was able to refer my friends to go and be able to go through Planned Parenthood, which is super helpful.

JB: Okay. This is kind of not really a follow up question, but a different one. When have you felt most at home in your body?

AK: I mean, I would say I just feel more at home in my body, like every day, like after transitioning, like I, I previously this is, I previously like I would always say to like the therapist I had at the time, who was a Catholic therapist. It was bad, but that wasn't really her fault. There's a whole different lore jump there, but I don't think that's super irrelevant. Don't let your parents pick your therapist. Okay. So either way, I would to say to her is that, like I, when I see myself in the mirror, I don't think I can pick myself out of a line up, if that makes sense. And I feel like now I can, I feel like I can definitely now pick myself out of a lineup. And I feel like it feels like my body now, if that makes sense. Like, I feel like I'm just, like, more aware of what I am and like, who I am now. And like for like the most part. I was. Yeah. So I guess I feel more at home in my body. being able- even when I'm not, like, dressed up or anything, but I can still, like, see myself in, like, a window or like, see myself in like a mirror. And it still feels like myself as opposed to like this, like other person I was kind of ignoring and almost like piloting, if that makes sense.

JB: Yeah. That does. So, you talked about online space has being pretty terrible for you. And also that you went to Montana State, but then you transferred back to OSU. So how is your time been at OSU? Like being able to, like, be in-person and stuff like that.

AK: Being in-person at OSU, I think is really great. In general, online schooling I don't think works that well for me personally. And so being able to like be in person and like for the most part, like I don't feel like unsafe or like I don't think I've ever felt like any like, you know, like problems and OSU. Now granted, I transferred to OSU when I at least I think I passed pretty good. And like I, and so, I never had that much of an opportunity of that big of a target on my back, if that makes sense. I feel like I blend in, for the most part, pretty good. So, I can't really speak to what it would be like to someone who's super aggressively, like, not fitting in, if that makes sense. But for the most part, I feel like everyone is really good as far as like being trans and in-person schooling I think is working a lot better for me personally. The one thing that OSU, I feel like I feel like OSU might just be like a hair too big, almost where like, at Montana State I felt like it was a lot more like a like a personal connection with, like, teachers and stuff and professors, but I this also could be me. I arguably have not been much of an effort in that regard since transferring here because it-so this very well could be like a my issue. But like with a lot of the engineering classes, it felt like it feels like even when you go for like help, there seems just like a thousand TAs all in like a panic or like a wormhole or anything. It feels like there's, like, not that much time for, like, one on one help here, which I'm kind of struggling with. But again, this could be a me problem.

JB: So, what's your major here?

AK: Mechanical engineering.

JB: Mechanical engineering. You said before that your parents were like, you're going to go to engineering school. Did you, are you like still, did you choose engineering for yourself?

AK: Uhhh, hard to say. Hard to say.

JB: Are you happy in it?

AK: Definitely when I first went into college it was not my choice. For the most part, I still feel like I just want to build shit. Like, I just want to, like, yeah. I think I, if in a perfect world where I made every single choice, I feel like I still would have went into a very similar field. I don't know if it would have been engineering exactly, but I still feel like it's close enough. I am genuinely, for the most part, happy in it. Now I do kind of, I don't know, Eric - Eric, I think I mentioned, is my twin - he fought my parents to listen like he's going to architecture school now. And, you know, he does seem happier, to be honest. But, like, I think it'll be fine either way.

JB: If you could do a different major, what do you think you'd pick?

AK: I don't know.

JB: That's fair. You don't have to know. Well, I'm going to ask you about your objects now, what did you bring today?

AK: I brought my sourdough starter.

JB: Amazing. And what made you pick this object?

AK: Because I just I thought, like, we talked earlier about iterating and I feel like a sourdough starter was a really good way of symbolizing that. Or like, almost like the symbol of how a transition starts. Like this thing starts as, like a really smelly. It proofs as a pure hootch, it makes you go blind if you, when you first do it. And if you ignore it like it's, it's one of my favorite activities is to not feed it for a little bit then force my roommates to smell it, like it like burns your nose. It's great, either way. So, I just thought a lot about the iterating and, like, the starting out thing where, like, it's this is like something that you actually have to continually work at. But if you, when you do that, like, you get really cool results, it's like, you know, I make pretty good bread, I think. But like if it's like ignored or if it's like, not like cared about or anything, it just it gets smelly, it produces that blinding hootch, and it dies. This one might be dead, but that's not really, we're not going to worry about that for the metaphor. This one might be dead because my kitchen flooded and theres a dehumidifer in my house, which has ruined the microbiome of my house, but that's doesn't really matter, we're not going to worry about that for the metaphor.

What was I going to say? So I just thought that was really good way of like showing, like the iteration where it's like it gets better and better the more you work on it. And so, I thought that was. So, in the same way, it's just like something you work at, continuously, just like, kind of like gender where it feels like. Or at least I don't know if I feel like I feel like working on gender continuously, but I feel like I have to work on it... like effort has to be put into it, otherwise it doesn't quite work as well, if that makes sense, I don't know. This metaphor may have worked out better in my head. It worked out really good in my head.

JB: I think it makes sense. Do you think that most people don't have to work at their gender?

AK: I would say that anyone who's cis doesn't work at their gender, but that's like that's like leaving, you know, like the bread. Because sourdough starter is just flour and water. I would argue that's like leaving the two of them as completely separate things. As opposed to, I feel like once people, I don't know if there's any, I guess I'm making broad statements. It feels like, for the most part, all like the trans people I know. It's not something that, like, ever is, like, particularly, like at rest of that makes sense. Where it feels like gender feels like it's something that can be like, iterated, like feels like there's always, like more exploration that could happen. That doesn't mean you have to like, have to, but it feels like there's something more that could always, like, happen. If that makes sense.

JB: No, no, I like that metaphor, I think it's a good one. Do you think you always would have picked sourdough to represent you? Or like, what do you think you would have picked five years ago?

AK: Five years ago. That was what, 2019 I was junior year of high school. Sorry. I'm just trying to get myself a time frame for when that was. Junior year of high school, I feel like it was like like a lot of, like - you said I need to pick a thing to represent myself - junior year of high school. Sorry, I came prepared with a metaphor for today, I didn't come with a metaphor for five years ago.

JB: And you don't have to have one if you don't have one, it's okay.

AK: I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but I'll keep thinking about it. But junior me of high school, sorry, junior year of high school felt like a whole lot of like beginnings. Like I feel like I didn't particularly know anything about myself until that year where I feel like I really started open up, if that makes sense. It is also hard because I feel like I don't have that many like memories from pre-transition. Which doesn't super help. Yeah. I just feel like that year was like a whole lot of beginnings. And I feel like, it was those beginnings and, like, trying to, just feel like as a whole, just, like, trying to, like, figure myself out that year.

JB: Yep, that makes sense. So, your object would be different. You just don't really know what it is, basically.

AK: Yeah, yeah.

JB: Okay. All right. Well, that's all the questions I have. Is there anything else that you feel like you didn't cover that you want to talk about or just mention briefly?

AK: I don't think so. I'm going to put this elsewhere now because I'm playing with it. Oh, I have a thousand cups, that are stacked on my desk, they all fell over. Okay. Nothing off the top of my head. No. Yeah.

JB: Okay, cool. Thank you so much for doing this interview.

AK: Yeah. Of course.