Maxwell Deborde Oral History Interview, February 10, 2024

JOZIE BILLINGS: Okay. Today is February 10th, 2024. I'm here with Maxwell Deborde, and we are over Zoom, and we are both in Corvallis. Are you in Corvallis today?

MAXWELL DEBORDE: Uh, I'm in Eugene, actually.

JB: Eugene, alright, that's fine. My name is Jozie Billings, and we are doing this interview as part of my honors thesis project, Beyond the Binary. Okay, welcome, good morning, how are you doing today?

MD: I'm good, how are you?

JB: I'm good. Alright, let's get started right into the basics. So can you, just, repeat again how you identify and what your pronouns are?

MD: Yeah, um, I identify as a male and go by he/him

JB: He/him, okay, to start let's go back to the beginning. And by the beginning I mean your childhood. Did you have any experiences in your childhood that you thought were really formative to the creation of, like - well not the creation of, but - like, solidifying your identity and your gender? What activities were you involved in, stuff like that.

MD: Yeah, so, um, as a kid, I was involved in, I was really into history. Like World War Two history. I kind of outgrew it, I'm not really into it now, but I was really interested in that kind of stuff, so I was looking at planes. I wanted to be a fighter pilot, and that sort of thing. Um, as far, um, any experiences that really shaped my gender, I just, I kind of remember figuring out that, because I am straight, I just kind of remember figuring out, like, going from not really being attracted to anything and then realizing oh I'm attracted to, um, girls. And that, um, that, I don't know, I mean, that wasn't anything, like, huge because obviously that's how most people, um the majority of people, um, are straight. But it wasn't anything special or anything, um, but, I just, I would say I had a very normal coming up to figuring out my identity

JB: You say, it's very normal. Like what do, what is normal to you? Like, what does that mean?

MD: Basically, like no, um, no internal, like, struggles no, like, external um battles with anyone. I mean, obviously it's going to be accepted that I'm a straight man, you know what I mean, so I've never had to deal with any sort of, um, conflict. Either internal or external.

JB: Okay. Did you do any sports as a kid?

MD: I played lacrosse. I golfed a little bit. I skied a lot. Mountain biked. I more, um, I played lacrosse but I wasn't that good. I was always more into individual sports than team sports. So, um, I usually, I would kind of just do stuff on my own a little bit.

JB: Why do you think you were more into individual sports?

MD: I really, um, I get really flustered when I have to work with a team and I always, um, overthink it. And I like, I played soccer, too, I didn't mention that. I played soccer, I was playing intramural soccer last year and I still, like, I'm pretty decent, I'm not a bad player. I just get really overwhelmed, and when I'm by myself I'm like kind of in my flow and don't have to rely on anyone. I don't like having to-I don't like people having to rely on. I'd like to be more relying on myself, and also like just naturally as I did those things more and more, I found to enjoy them more and more. So, I'm a pretty big skier. I was on the ski team in high school, the freestyle ski team, and I was a coach, and I worked at Mount Hood Meadows as an instructor.

JB: Nice. So are you, are you from Oregon, then?

MD: Yeah, I'm from Hood River

JB: Hood River, cool, my coworker's from Hood River. Okay. So, as a kid, did you have any like, role models for, like, who you thought a good man was, or who, the kind of man you wanted to grow up to be?

MD: Yeah, I would say definitely, just my dad. I think that's probably pretty common answer, but he always, I mean, I mean, still, like I honestly think, that I've grown to even, um, see him as a role model more now that he's older because I kinda realize that like, like, I'm getting to the real world and that sort of thing, and how he was really able to, uh, like, he's done very well for himself after starting at not a great, um, place in his, um, just like his, um, financially, and he's been able to like pull himself up by his bootstraps, that sort of thing. So like, but as, and I mean, and on top of that, I feel like he definitely is very aware of certain, like, how he treats people, that sort of thing, and he is very self-aware of how he acts in certain situations, and I kind of modeled myself after that. And I definitely see a lot of similarities that I do even just subconsciously that have followed his, like that I see in myself, or like parts of him, parts of him I see him myself.

JB: So you mentioned, like, you mentioned a couple of things that he did, but I was wondering what specific things you see in yourself.

MD: So this one is not good, but we both really get-I'm so hyper-aware of being a public inconvenience. So like, if I'm standing in the middle of a restaurant, and people are like trying to like- I hate, or like, if I'm playing golf and there's people behind us, and they're faster than us, I'm just, it almost gets to the point where I can't even like, enjoy. It's always just, that's always in the back of my head. Like I don't want to be an inconvenience for anyone, and I think he also, like, he gets, I don't do this, but he gets so flustered when we, he won't- When we order a drive through. He won't let us order for ourselves. He tries to order for everyone, and then he gets mad at us when we have to like, and then they ask like, do you want fries, you know, like, what type of drink do you want? And he gets so mad. But he won't let us order for ourselves. I don't get it, but he gets really overwhelmed by that sort of thing

JB: So, like, the type of person where, if you get the wrong order at a restaurant, you're not gonna like, send it back like that kind of thing?

MD: Personally?

JB: Yeah, you or your father.

MD: I probably pick, pick it off, if it's like tomatoes or something. I like tomatoes. I'll probably just pick it off. But my aunt and my mom will definitely be like, call the waiter over and send that back. But I don't like when they do that.

JB: Okay I'm kind of still curious a little bit about your father, and like, is he... does he follow-I mean, like you mentioned him being like very aware of himself in public spaces, which I wouldn't say is, maybe a normal - my father certainly wasn't like that - So, but, do you think he was like a, like a normal father like in that, not in that sense like, maybe-I'm sorry-like, in the emotional sense like, was he like good with his emotions? Because I know a lot of fathers, right, who don't really deal with that side.

MD: Right, yeah, no. He always encourages me to uh, um, like he tells me, like, he says, you can cry. You can express your emotions. You can do all these things. He tells me he loves me all the time like that sort of thing. He is pretty big on that. Wanted to make sure that I knew that. He is, um, he was raised Mormon. He's not Mormon anymore, but he says that it, they kind of teach you to, like, suppress that, that sort of thing, and he didn't want that to be instilled on me. But he, I would say, as far as dads go, he's probably he's pretty emotionally open as well, and he tries hard to... another thing that I think that he does that I do is when I'm in, like, a bad mood and my girlfriend's like, sometimes she'll be doing stuff that annoys me, but it's not because of her. It's because of my already mood, and it's important for me to tell, to remember that, and not like, snap out at her when it's not her fault, and that sort of thing, and I think I kind of got that from him as well.

JB: Nice. Okay. You mentioned that your father was raised as a Mormon, but you weren't. Were you raised in any religion, or just?

MD: We're like Christian, not, I don't go to church or anything. I just believe in the Christian God. Um, but I'm not super religious. I just believe that there's something up there.

JB: That's fair. Do you think that, like, influenced your gender in any way, or even like for your perceptions of other genders, I guess.

MD: Um, kind of. I guess they kind of hold the idea that, like the traditional gender roles.

And while I see that there are obviously a lot of other options around that, I do see that as, cause, like, my dad works. My mom stays at, stays at home. They kind of have had those traditional gender roles, by choice. My mom was a teacher before I was born, and she just wanted to raise us, um, and so like, and like, I see that as a viable option, I think it's a choice, and you can do it, how you want. If I was making enough money, and I think it'd be great for my kids if my wife stayed home and raised the kids. I know I enjoyed it, having a mom there all the time. I never had to go to daycare or anything.

JB: Yeah, I think it is really nice to have your mom home. My mom never was. So I kind of wish I would have had that.

MD: Hm, mhm, yeah it was great.

JB: Okay, um, you mentioned also that you were from Hood River, do you think growing up in Oregon had any impact on you? I know it's a pretty, like, especially that area, is a very liberal area.

MD: Yeah, as far as asking how living there has impacted my outlook on gender a little bit, is that what you're...?

JB: Yeah!

MD: Okay, I would say no, I mean, it's a pretty, it's a pretty normal town, I guess, that there, I don't know Hood River is like, it's diverse, but it's not super... It's, like, diverse, but racially diverse. It's like half white, half Mexican. Probably like half, people think, I mean, there is a lot of Liberals in Hood River. But there's also a lot of Republicans in the upper valley, and so you get a good, you get a mix of everything. I think it was pretty run of the mill as far as gender. There wasn't any, like, anomalies, I would say.

JB: Okay, good to know. Do you, do you think that social media has impacted your perception of your gender in any way? Do you, I guess I should ask first, do you use social media?

MD: Yeah, I have an Instagram and Snapchat. Um, as far as it's influencing my view on gender, I would say, I mean, no, honestly, I don't. I feel like my view on gender was already formed before I had social media, and it really hasn't affected it since it's been formed.

JB: What did form it then?

MD: Just, I guess my childhood experiences. Just being on those sports teams, being in public school, learning, I mean, I guess, I think that just, honestly, just mingling with other people my age has influenced it the most. And I think that I have a very standard, um, view.

JB: Yeah, that's okay. Um, so, um, I'm curious if you have any like, this is, I mean, maybe more of a question for those who aren't cisgender. But like, do you have any goals in your mind, for, like, how you want to present yourself and like where you feel most comfortable in?

MD: Yeah, I do. I think that I'm pretty focused on like, becoming a better person, man [air quotes]. Whatever it is, and I have a pretty good idea of what that is, um, or what I want, like what I want to look like. I think that that's it's someone that is level-headed. Someone that doesn't, is very in control of their own emotions, actions, um, and that's something I've been working on. I'm not something that I need to work on. I think it's someone that... I think it's someone that, I mean, as a man, I do kind of believe that it's my duty to protect whoever, like my girlfriend, my family, that sort of thing. And so that's another aspect that I believe in, that I want to work on. Um, not that they can't themselves, but, I mean, I do view it as a little bit of a duty that I have.

JB: Um, where do you think that idea comes from? Because I think that is a very big idea associated with masculinity, like even, like, butch women, I know feel that way particularly. Where do you think that comes from?

MD: Popular culture? Um, and growing up my dad, also. He, he has a plan. If someone breaks into our house he has a gun in his nightstand. Yeah, so probably just instilled in me. I've been doing, and not just like a gun or anything, I've been doing a lot of martial arts training, that sort of thing. I, not that it, I just, I know it probably won't ever happen, but I feel like if you don't have the will and the capability to protect your loved ones in your home that you don't really, you don't have the privilege or you shouldn't...you shouldn't...as, as a man, I feel that if I don't have both the will-'cause some people don't have the will, they won't do it, they won't-and the capability you shouldn't be able to...you shouldn't have that. You shouldn't have that. As a man. And I recognize that that's pretty traditional but it's something that I believe in.

JB: You keep on like mentioning things that are, like, very traditional. Do you think there's, I mean, obviously you subscribe to it. But, you feel like, maybe, like popular culture kind of looks down on people that like follow these traditional roles?

MD: Yeah, I do. I mean, I'm not. I know I'm not all traditional. I'm very, I'm not really. I'm all over the place in terms of my beliefs. That's just one of the more traditional beliefs I do believe in, and as far as that goes, I mean, if like, I'm not saying that they can't do it themselves. I'm just saying that they can do it, and I should be able to do it too, you know, protect themselves. And so yeah, I do. I do think that it is looked down upon pretty heavily, but also I feel like those views are also associated with other views that I don't believe in, and I get why, I get why, like it would come across as, cause I think, like, if you, if someone's talking about, like that sort of thing, you would kind of quickly, just, like, assume that they believe these other things. And I think that if people took the time and like talked to me, they'd be like, "Oh, okay, he's not like those people."

JB: The other things you're referring to are like conser-

MD: Would be a hardcore Republican.

JB: ... yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Okay, um, this kind of relates to the last question I asked, but when have you felt most at home in your body? Whether that was like a time in your life, like an experience you had-whatever works.

MD: Good question... I would say, I would say when I am, I do jujitsu. It's like a kind of a wrestling thing, and I would say, when I'm doing that. You kind of enter a flow state where your like, your body and your mind kind of like, just connect, or whatever. I know it sounds, like, corny or whatever, you kinda feel like you're, I'm moving as one like, whatever all this energy, that type of - you know what I mean? But you're connected, and you just, you don't even think about what you're doing. You just kinda enter a flow state and like a lot of people will close their eyes while they do it, cause they just, like, are feeling the, your part-, your wrestling your partner, you know.

JB: Yeah, how long have you been doing that for?

MD: About twenty weeks.

JB: Twenty weeks, nice.

MD: I know it's a weird way to put the time, but we do it by the week.

JB: I feel like it makes sense. How soon did you start to feel that flow state that you get into?

MD: Oh, pretty right away. I'm not good, at all, but you don't need to be good to tap into that. A lot of people will do it high on, like, marijuana, because they think it could like, like it amplifies that that flow state. I don't do that, but a lot of people do.

JB: I've never heard about that, that's interesting.

MD: It's definitely very common in the culture.

JB: Are you doing that through a class at OSU or is it like outs-?

MD: I have, I have and I am also doing outside. I did the PAC class twice.

JB: So, you go to OSU, do you think your college experience has influenced your gender in any way, or like even moving away from home? Anything like that?

MD: I would, I would, well, I would say that, I was talking to one of my girlfriend's friends, and she was telling me, 'cause she's a pre-med bio, bio something and I was asking her 'cause she was complaining about her finals, and she was doing a lot of studying and all this stuff, and I was just asking like, well, obviously, I know why she's putting herself through it, to get a degree and a good job and make money. But I was like, why are you doing such a hard thing? She was basically, she was like, I don't want to ever have to rely on a man to have any, like, power over me financially in any way, and then into, I don't want my relationship to be transactional in that sense. And I was like, wow, that's really that's super respectable. And it shows that you have a lot of self-respect. And it's really impressive. And I just kind of realized, both man, men and women, that there are very, what's the word, It's like they're fierce, you know. Some people are just fierce, and it's impressive to see that. Like, I mean, it's come a long way, you know, since the traditional housewife nuclear family, that sort of thing. And I was like, wow, respect to her, you know.

JB: Okay, um. So, I'm going to ask you about your object now, you picked one out? So what did you bring today?

MD: I brought a hammer

JB: Cool, alright, so what made you pick that?

MD: So, I'm at my girlfriend's house right now in Eugene, and she has a bookshelf that she needs to get built, and she was like, I need a man to come help me build this bookshelf, and I need you to bring a hammer. Because, and, I was, I was trying to figure out what I was going to pick and that was like perfect, um, and so I mean, just, even though gender roles are less accepted nowadays, I think that that there's a lot of like subconscious, like, reverts back to them like that, for example, like she's not, like, traditional, that sort of thing. I mean, she can't. She can't build it herself. She needs me to build it, you know. Um, and so, I don't know, I just, there are definitely certain qualities in men and women that lend themselves to do certain things more effectively. And it's just, it was just funny to me that, like, like, she just assumed that I'm a guy. I can put together a bookshelf, you know.

JB: Can you? Have you ever, do you have any experience like, making stuff like that?

MD: Building stuff? Yeah, yeah, my dad and I build a lot of stuff.

JB: Cool. Interesting. Hammer, I never expected to get that one, that's cool. Um, okay. No, I feel like that makes sense why you brought that, because you mentioned a lot of like, helping to support, like, not necessarily your family, but, like, the people around you.

MD: Yeah, acts of service.

JB: Yeah, that's cool. Okay, well, that's all the questions I have, so, do you have anything else you want to add?

MD: I would just say that, like as far as my "idea of gender," just to, like all encompass that, I believe, I believe that we, I believe that gender is-there's one thing that is more maybe traditional, I don't know-I think that there are certain masculine traits and certain feminine traits, but that are, like, inherently feminine or inherently masculine. I know that some people don't believe that, but I feel that, obviously, men can have feminine traits and women can have masculine traits, and that was, like, a distinction that I kinda had been thinking about and made to develop my viewpoint.

JB: Yeah. No, I mean, it makes sense, like the whole point of gender is to assign social roles with, like, within a culture. So it like, I think it's, I mean, you keep on saying like gender roles aren't really...people look down on it, but I think they're fine! Like, they're there for a reason.

MD: They work for some people and they don't work for others.

JB: Exactly, really the only thing we need is to, like, have the freedom to, like, choose a different one if the one we got assigned is not right, so yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. Okay. Well, thank you for talking with me today.

MD: Yeah, of course.