Danny Burnett Oral History Interview, February 11, 2024

JOZIE BILLINGS: Okay. Today is February 11th, 2024. I'm here with Danny over zoom. And I'm in Corvallis, Oregon. Where are you today?

DANNY BURNETT: Corvallis, Oregon.

JB: Okay. My name is Jozie Billings, and we're doing this interview as a part of my honors thesis project, Beyond the Binary. Welcome to the interview. To get started, do you want to just, reiterate for the interview how you identify and what your pronouns are?

DB: I am a trans-masculine person, and my pronouns are he/they.

JB: All right. We're going to start at the beginning, maybe with like your childhood. How did you act in your childhood? What kind of activities were you involved in? Were there any, like, formative experiences that stand out to you in terms of your gender?

DB: Yeah. So I am a twin. I grew up with a twin brother. So when we were little kids, I didn't really see a difference between my twin brother and myself. Like, so I didn't really. I didn't have any sisters or anything, so I didn't really understand, I guess, how I was different from my brother. So we did a lot of the same activities, growing up. And, yeah, I was really confused at the time, like why he could run around without a shirt on, but I had to have a shirt on and just different things like that. I remember he was in Boy Scouts, and I would always try to attend his Boy Scout meetings. Like, I would always go to them. And then one of the moms of one of the other kids pulled me aside and said, this is a Boy Scouts meeting. You can't be here. So I had to stop going to Boy Scouts. But I played a lot of, like, soccer and did a lot of sports. My mom put me in ballet, which I really hated. I think it was really dysphoric for me, even though I didn't know what that was at the time. I don't know. I always sort of struggled in some ways to relate to other girls who were my age at the time, not other girls, but, you know, and I guess those were some of my formative experiences with gender.

JB: When did you sort of start to question your gender?

DB: I started to question my gender when I was about 14. I was exposed to like some sort of queer narratives of gender online, which I think is where a lot of people sort of find themselves, I guess. So I realized at the time that I didn't really feel right or something felt sort of off with my gender where I didn't feel, I guess I didn't really connect to womanhood or like being a teenage girl. It just didn't feel right to me. So I came out as gender fluid, and in an environment that was kind of unfriendly to that. But, and then I would sort of dress more masculinely on some days. I had a binder and I guess that was my, my first sort of experiences with, you know, non-binary-ness. And I went on for years that way, I guess, sort of being gender fluid. And then I started identifying as non-binary.

JB: And when did you start identifying as trans-masc?

DB: I guess around 17. But then I went through a period of a few years where I sort of, just like, shoved my gender under the bed and didn't think about it. Sort of, was more, presenting more like a woman. Maybe for about 4 or 5 years. And then recently, about a couple years ago, I started presenting more masculinely and, sort of, came out again as trans-masc.

JB: You mentioned that your hometown or at the time you were living in the time wasn't really welcoming of gender fluidity. Is that kind of why you, like, repressed that gender exploration for a bit?

DB: I think in some ways I was in an environment that was accepting because my friends were very accepting at the time. But in some ways, the sort of-I grew up in Orange County, California. And it's pretty-surprisingly because you think California is liberal-but surprisingly, Orange County is pretty Republican. And my family, was, pretty Republican. My dad was a Trump supporter. And it, it just wasn't like a super welcoming environment. I guess my mom wasn't like. Like, she wasn't going to kick me out or anything, but she wasn't going to respect my pronouns either. Yeah, like I think once the school nurse called me, "they" in front of my dad and he went on this really long rant about how, like, the gay hivemind is like stealing the souls of our children or something. And it was really funny to me at the time, but it was also not funny because he was really in my face about it. So, it wasn't always like the most, it wasn't the most accepting, but it wasn't like the least either. If that makes sense?

JB: Yeah. It does. So, it sounds like your parents weren't very supportive, but did you have any other, like, role models in your life of, like, positive forms of masculinity that you kind of like, saw as, like maybe you wanted to grow into, in a way.

DB: Yeah. I think other trans people, on, like, the internet who I saw or, like, older, like I well, I followed on Instagram this older trans guy. And then I realized he went to the same school as me. And we're actually still friends today. And I've sort of looked up to him as like, I like, I watched him sort of be non-binary and then transition into a man. And I don't know, he's sort of a role model for me of, like, positive queer masculinity.

JB: And what does that look like to you? Positive queer masculinity.

DB: Oh, man, that's a hard question. I knew this interview was going to be full of, like, hard questions.

JB: You can think about it for a second if you need to.

DB: You know, I guess it's just. Having your gender and being comfortable with it and doing sort of whatever you want to do with it. You know, feeling comfortable to dress the way you want to dress and be a man however that feels good to you, I guess.

JB: How does that differ from, like, mainstream ideas of masculinity?

DB: You know, I guess mainstream masculinity is very like, you got to be a macho man. You gotta, you can't cry. You can't. You gotta, I don't know. It's not just aesthetics. It's also roles, you know, like there are aesthetics. Like you have to have, like, that triangle shape. You have to have muscles. But there's also like, being the provider, being, you know, the sort of masculine figure. I don't know. And it's not something I really identify with at all.

JB: Yeah, that makes sense. You mentioned that you, like, identified as non-binary for a bit. Do you ever feel like, constrained by your label, or are you just okay with, like, understanding that gender can be fluid sometimes and you're like, if it ever changes, I'll just like, change the label.

DB: Yeah, I guess sometimes I do feel a little constrained by it in that sometimes I have a very confusing experience of gender. Honestly, some days I feel like I could be a woman or I could be non-binary. I still have a sort of fluid expression of gender, but most of the time I feel pretty masculine and I'm really comfortable in dressing more masculinely. And I am on testosterone, so I'm happy with my body looking more masculine. But I still have these, sort of, experiences of wanting to dress feminine and wear makeup. And some, I guess some people in the community, sort of, believe that, you sort of can't be trans-masc or a trans man if you sort of express femininity, but I think I express a lot of femininity. I feel like I'm a very feminine man.

JB: That's cool. I would agree that some people do think that, but I yeah, you'd think people who are open to other ideas of gender would be okay with people doing whatever they want, but. Okay. So you kind of mentioned the older trans guy on Instagram for, kind of, your role model. Do you get, like, inspiration for your gender expression anywhere else?

DB: Ooh. I don't know. I guess. Like, I watched sort of like things on the internet, but also like, there's this, there's this trans guy who's also named Danny who sort of shared his story online about, like raising his young daughter and being like a pregnant trans man and raising his young daughter. And I read another memoir about a trans, man who was a parent. And I think those sort of speak to me of like, men who are nurturing, and I think that is important to me because I would like to have kids one day, and I would sort of like to be, you know, a dad, but also like someone who is nurturing and, so those are sort of positive portrayals of trans masculinity that I really like.

JB: That's good. Kind of along the same vein, what is euphoric to you and what is dysphoric to you?

DB: I think a lot of my gender euphoria comes with, like, being surrounded by my family and friends who affirm my gender, and sort of understand it, and sort of the changes my body is undergoing because of testosterone have been very euphoric for me. Like my voice getting deeper, which is like a relatively new development because I started T about two months ago. So it's been really fun. And, like, growing body hair, I know that's like a thing that a lot of trans men sort of dread, but I think it rocks. I think it's really cool. And so going through those changes, but also, in the past, even when I wasn't on testosterone sort of being accepted as a more masculine person or like a man by my friends, and my partner, and them using the right pronouns for me and just seeing me as a man, like my friend, Anna, always says like, "oh, you're so masculine. I don't know how anyone could misgender you." And that makes me feel really good. And for dysphoria, I guess what makes me feel dysphoric is like, it's not so bad when I'm, like, trying to pretend to be like a girl or something. Like at work. I just quit my job, but I was a server, and I had to sort of wear makeup and sort of pretend to be very feminine, just because it wasn't a super accepting environment. But it is more dysphoric to me to, like, try to be masculine and then have people misgender me like, if I'm, like trying my best to, like, look like a man, I guess. And people are calling me "she", it just makes me feel pretty sad. Yeah. I think also my family, who was not supportive, misgendering me, really sucks. Like, my aunt and I went to get our nails done. I got them in black, but, the nail tech called me "he" and then my aunt started calling me, "she" in front of the nail tech, and then the nail tech switched pronouns for me, and that felt really awful. So. Yeah.

JB: How do you cope with situations like that?

DB: You know, I feel like I'm really good at suppressing my gender dysphoria. Like, I did it for a long time, where I sort of lived life as a woman, even though I wasn't a woman. So I feel like it's just sort of a thing. I don't know, I sort of shove it down and, like, try not to think about it and just, like, grin and bear it, which I don't know is a healthy way to cope with dysphoria. Like, I'm not telling anyone to cope with their dysphoria that way. But that's sort of how I deal with it.

JB: So has, you mentioned that your hometown wasn't very accepting, has moving to Oregon changed, like how you present yourself in any way?

DB: Not exactly like I was presenting very queer when I left Orange County and when I came to Oregon, I didn't know anyone. And, I sort of coped with that by seeking out, like, the attention of, like, men. And I met my ex-boyfriend. And he was a straight man. So, I was with him for, 2 or 3 years, sort of. And I very much sort of, I mean, he knew I was non-binary, but he didn't treat me as a non-binary person. Like, he used she/her pronouns for me and called me his girlfriend. And, you know, I just sort of like, let that, let that happen. And I sort of dressed more feminine and, I mean, I came from this very deeply lonely place of, I want to have people in my life. But ended up being really unhealthy. And even for years afterwards, I sort of internalized this message that in order to be loved by men, I had to be feminine. Which was a really unhealthy place for me to be. But eventually I sort of overcame that and started dressing more masculine. Just because the partner I was with, or the partner I am with, has been a lot more accepting of my masculinity. So, Oregon hasn't really changed my, presentation as much as, like, the circumstances of going to college and being lonely, sort of pushed me into a place that I was uncomfortable with.

JB: Have you been able to find community here?

DB: Yeah, but it took me a really long time. I had to sort of leave that relationship, to sort of start over and start to make friends. And now I have, like, a good amount of queer friends, like, actually, for my first testosterone shot, I had a gender reveal party. And there was, like, like ten people there I think, who were, like, loving and supportive. And it was really fun. Like a bunch of friends. But then also my partner's parents, who are lesbians, came. And it was, it was just like all queer people there, and it was really cool. So yeah, so I sort of do have community now.

JB: That sounds really nice. The gender reveal party sounds really fun.

DB: It was really fun. I made cupcakes and they had blue frosting inside of them.

JB: Awe. So this might be a little bit of a jump from the last conversation, but when have you felt most at home in your body?

DB: I think for a long time, like dressing feminine. I didn't know why I was so uncomfortable with my body. Like, I thought maybe it was the shape of my body, or, like, I don't know, the fact that my body didn't conform to, like, a woman's body in the way I wanted it to. But, as I have sort of stopped seeing my body as a woman's body and started to accept it, as my body and sort of stopped dissociating from it. I've sort of become more comfortable with, yeah, with being in touch with my body. And, even though my body hasn't changed that much from testosterone yet. Seeing myself as a man has made me so much more comfortable in my body and, like, even the shape of my body.

JB: Okay, checking my list of questions. Let's, I want to ask you about your object, what object to bring today.

DB: I brought a poem, which I'm really nervous about sharing, but, I've been writing. I've sort of been expressing myself more since I've gone on this gender journey. And my poem, you know, it's not, it's not like a great poem, but, I feel like it's a good expression of my gender. So.

JB: Okay. Go for it.

DB: Okay. It's called a gender catalog. And. Okay: "First

There is a poem I wrote about clay while I was still questioning my gender,

About the ways we sculpt and shape ourselves through choice and then

There is my Old Spice Deep Sea deodorant,

But also my You perfume by Glossier,

That mingle together when I wear my Friday night best smelling like Queer confusion and then

There is my front zip purple chest binder and my knitted packer, hand made by unnamed angels who I send silent thank yous to every time I pass as a man to other people's grandmothers, and then

There is my (T)estosterone and the needles that push it into my thigh, so I can grow hair in new and exciting places, and feel my voice crack like birdsong when I laugh and joke and yell joyous expletives and then

There is the feeling of elation when I wear my first suit jacket and cactus print button up and brush brown mascara into the fine hairs of my upper lip that began to grow after I started testosterone, and I feel like hot stuff going to my brother's wedding even though I sign his marriage certificate with my deadname and then

There is my love for my fiancé and my friends and my family, because gender cannot exist in a vacuum but is a manifestation of our relationship to other people and society,

There is the voice in my head that tells me I will get there one day even though I don't know where this path goes yet and then

There is the gentleness and love I radiate when I spread my hands over and wash my very own body with soap and feel the unease I used to feel about myself quiet as I transform and then

There is my set of brand new beginner's tarot cards that I bought with a gift card my dead dad gave me that I prayed would tell me transitioning was the solution to the question I couldn't even put words to and lastly

There is me learning that the answer to that question has always been me"

And, that's my poem.

JB: That was really good. I'm trying not to cry right now. Goddamn. What was your process like writing that?

DB: I don't know. I was, I was trying to put together sort of a list of items that gave me gender euphoria. I don't know, I feel like it's a very joyous poem. And, or a sort of picture of, like, where I'm at and my gender right now in my life. And I feel like I went sort of from concrete objects to sort of more abstract sort of things. But, I just really tried to capture my standing in my own gender, in my own life right now.

JB: Yeah, I definitely agree, it is very joyous, they were tears of joy, but God, I had a question about it... Do you, do you make a lot of art like this? Or write a lot of poems, I guess?

DB: I've been writing more poems. I took, a few terms ago. I took a poetry writing class, and then I started writing more poems. I used to write poems when I was a teenager, but they're the kind of poems that you like bury under your bed, so no one ever sees them. So. But I sort of started, I don't know, I feel like when I started testosterone, I started living as a man, I sort of, I sort of, like, stopped dissociating from my life a little bit, and I was sort of more able to come into, like, a more creative space. Maybe just like, I don't know, like, I kind of hate Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but, you know, just like having your belongingness met, sort of, allows you to be more creative or some shit. I don't know, can I cuss in this interview?

JB: Other people have, so, yes, go for it if you want to.

DB: Okay. Yeah. But I've sort of been able to be more creative, and that feels really good.

JB: Do you have anything else you want to share about your poem or your process making it?

DB: Well, I brought a couple more objects in case that wasn't good enough.

JB: What? No, that was amazing!

DB: I have my testosterone vial right here. You can't really see it that well because it's tiny. It's really amazing that something this tiny can create, like, such huge changes. And then I have my hat that says Protect Trans kids, which my partner got me for Christmas. So, I just wanted to be prepared with a variety of objects.

JB: Those are good, very good objects. I just kind of wanted to, going back to the poem a little bit, like, I think expressions of queer joy are very important. And I was wondering if you, like, saw any of those that kind of inspired you in away. Maybe not necessarily for the poem, but just like maybe for your life in general.

DB: Yeah. I read a lot of queer poetry online, which makes me really happy. And I don't know, this is really lame, but when I first started thinking about going to it on testosterone, I watched a lot of, like, those compilations of people being like, this is my voice one day on T. This is my voice, six months on T. You know, just like transition timelines. And, you know, they always look so happy. And that really spoke to me, I guess, of, like, people undergoing transformation, or trans-masc people undergoing transformation and, like, loving themselves through it and loving themselves more, even if their bodies didn't match up to society's expectations of what a man's body should look like, they love themselves more for going through those changes and becoming more themselves. That really meant a lot to me, and still does. Yeah.

JB: Do you plan on making more poems in the future? I mean, maybe. You mentioned you were planning on trying to publish this one. Are you planning on, like, doing that more?

DB: I don't know. I don't know if I want to get it published by, like, I don't know, I think it'd be fun to publish it on, like. Like a small queer, like, online website or something. I don't know, if I would pursue getting it, like published anywhere, like notable. It's kind of, it kind of reads more like a slam poem, too, I think, than like a conventional, on page poem, but I have other poems that I think I would be interested in getting published eventually. I think it would be really cool. I think I don't really care about, like, sharing my poems with people. I just think it'd be really neat to put on my resume, like "Published Poet."

JB: It, does poetry have anything to do with, like, your career, your major right now?

DB: No. I'm a psychology major, and I actually want to go to school eventually to be a licensed clinical social worker. So it's just a hobby, I guess.

JB: It's a good one. Speaking of your major, I guess, I kind of wanted to ask a little bit about, like, your experience at OSU, like specifically OSU. Whether that had any influence on you in any way.

DB: I don't know. I think. I, what I remember when I first got to college, something that I remember is that I wanted to change my name in the school database, but after I changed my name, Student Health Services told me they couldn't treat me for my chronic health conditions because my insurance was under a different name. So I had to keep my dead name in the school system. And I still do have it because student health won't treat me, otherwise. So that was something that really sucks. And so, I still have to tell all my teachers at the beginning of term that I want them to call me something different. And I know that's probably not OSU's fault, but.

JB: Yeah. Maybe. Maybe not. Who knows? Do you get your, gender affirming care through the school, too?

DB: I don't, I get it through Planned Parenthood.

JB: Okay. You mentioned you took a poetry class. Have you taken any, like, of the queer studies classes here?

DB: I haven't, but I'm actually taking psychology of gender right now.

JB: Oh, cool, cool.

DB: Which has been fun and cool. It's kind of fun and cool, but kind of. I get to hear all of my, like, cis-classmates hot takes on gender, which has been kind of silly.

JB: Silly how?

DB: I don't know, I just have people being like, oh, like, isn't gender if we have all these societies who have the same concept of gender, isn't it like, really valid for there to be two genders? And the teacher was like, oh, well, actually there's cultures that have a different number of genders. You know, just hearing discourse about it. But I also get to bring my hot takes to class, and share them with people. So that's fun.

JB: What's an example of one of those hot takes?

DB: Well, we were talking about gender, and this guy was like, oh, well, if people can transition to whatever gender they want. And like. What's wrong with, like, gendered marketing? Like having razors for women and stuff. If gender is this big, important thing that make people want to switch. And I sort of was like, okay, well, like, your gender label can sort of be like this box, and you put all your gender shit in the box, you know, like your pronouns, your name, like, what hormones, different things can all put those in your box. And it only becomes an issue when other people are telling you what box you need to have, or like what you put in your box. So that was sort of my very simplified kindergarten level explanation of gender.

JB: There is a class called, it's in the Queer Studies department, I think, and it's called Queer of Color Arts and Activism, and you do a lot of poem writing in that class. So if you were if you were interested in taking one of those, I would recommend that one for you.

DB: Yeah, that would be really cool.

JB: Okay. Check my list one more time. Oh, do you use social media?

DB: I don't.

JB: You don't. I mean, you mentioned Instagram. Did you used to use it and you don't use it anymore?

DB: Yeah, I used to use Instagram a lot, but it was like a cringy, like, it was like a cringy fan account that I want to bury forever. I have an Instagram, but I've never really posted on it.

JB: That fair.

DB: So yeah, I'm not a big social media person.

JB: That's very valid. I don't think, I think I've asked all my questions. So is there anything else you wanted to share that you feel like we didn't touch on today?

DB: I don't know. I don't think so. It was really nice to talk about my gender and stuff, though. It would be cool if it was in SCARC or whatever it's called. But yeah, I liked sharing my poem and I'm grateful for the opportunity to do this.

JB: Yeah. Thank you for sharing. It's really wonderful.

DB: Thank you.