Mircalla Addams Oral History Interview, February 10, 2024

JOZIE BILLINGS: Today is February 10th, 2024, and I'm here with Mircalla Addams over Zoom. And I'm in Corvallis, Oregon. And where are you at today?

MIRCALLA ADDAMS: Also in Corvallis, Oregon.

JB: Very cool. My name is Jozie Billings, and we are doing this interview as a part of my honors thesis project, Beyond the Binary. Okay. Welcome to the interview. So to start, do you want to just reiterate for the interview how you identify and what your pronouns are?

MA: My pronouns are ze/hir. And I, like as far as gender and sexuality, I identify as a femme lesbian.

JB: Very cool. Okay. What does that mean to you? I'm curious.

MA: Like, to me, it has to do with, like, how gender roles are, like, are socially constructed artifact. And for me, like, to me, it's sort of grasping to the notion of gender as a social role. Like, I'm not a woman, but I am a femme because there is, like, because I do connect to what I've read of, like, the cult-, like it's a way of connecting to my own cultural history as a queer person in a way, or at least that's how I see it. I don't know if that makes sense.

JB: Yeah it does. Okay. Okay. We're going to go even further back to the beginning. Just to talk about your childhood for a bit. I'm curious if you had any formative experiences in your childhood that led you to identify this way, or, like, what kind of activities were you involved in, kind of stuff like that?

MA: I don't know if I can really, like, pinpoint any role models that I had, but I do have these very distinct memories of, like, basically currently I do really enjoy, like sort of the way I put it, the pageantry of femininity. I love presenting femininely, even if I do not identify as a woman. And like I can definitely looking back, I can see that part of me early on. Like I remember getting into like fights with my mother when I was six about wearing a coat, because if I wore a coat, you would not be able to see my dress. This is very important. And like, I wasn't even cold anyway. So why was this a problem? Like it's a whole thing, but like, I guess while I always did enjoy presenting femininely, I also never let it stop me from doing, like, exciting things: running around, like kneeling in the mud, like, gardening shit, you know? They were both necessary to me.

JB: Okay. You mentioned your mother. Did you have any role models as a kid as to what, like, femininity looked like or like what you aspired to be, in a way.

MA: Like, I mean, I grew up in the early 2000, and I think the notions of femininity and what feminine beauty was was very different back then, and I don't think I really aspired much to it. And here's the part where I feel, like, so annoyed as a person who, like, has sworn off the Disney corporation, you know, like, but no, I think like, back then, it was like there was honestly a lot of, like, identification and aspiration with Belle from Beauty and the Beast. Like, she was a brunette like me, loved to read, did adventurey things, but also had the twirly gown happening, you know.

JB: Sorry I just forgot to start my stopwatch.

MA: No worries.

JB: Okay. That's cool. Do you still identify with Belle?

MA: Not so much. Like, I don't know, it's also part of my grand, like, it's, it's part of my grand, like, economic social statement is, as a student of media where, like, I do not touch like anything done by the Disney corporation with a ten foot pole anymore. And I honestly think I'm a lot happier for it. Oh, never mind. I remember a very good example that actually still holds up for me today. I'm so sorry.

JB: No, you're good. Go ahead.

MA: I, like, I will always like joke to my friends that's Tracy Turnblad, from the original John Waters Hairspray, was like very formative. That movie was like one of my very favorites growing up. I still love it today. Like the sense of style in it has really, definitely given me my fascination with the aesthetic of the 60s. Like, there's just the scene at the end where she's, like, in this gown that's like pale pink with cockroach print on it. And it's like, and it feels so representative of like, performing femininity in a way that, like, is outside of the norm still somehow.

JB: Yeah. Um. Trying to think how to elaborate on that.

MA: Absolutely, like, I can also go in on the fact that if we want to read into the character of Tracy Turnblad, she's like a person who has her own outspoken political beliefs and uses what privilege she has to, like, push like towards her, like what she believes is right politically, which is also, like, feels tied to my personal interpretation of them as like a social role of like doing well by my community. Also, it like, it helped that I was a bit of a fat kid who got bullied for it and, like, representation for me.

JB: Um, so. You mentioned gender is a social role to you. Can you talk about that a little more?

MA: Okay. So. My understanding of womanhood, or really like the only useful definition that I really see, is that the only people who count as women are those who really feel like that's an applicable term for them. And like, and realizing that I was like, okay, great. Yeah, no this seems to work. But then I realized that doesn't really click with me. And I don't know, like, it's always easier to claim my queerness than, like, any other aspect of my identity. Like, I don't know, like I... Being single for several years on end, like, I don't know, I started basically reading about more historical lesbian culture, like doing, like reading into things like the Persistent Desire, or like Stone Butch Blues and like, I do identify with the notion, of like, being a femme as like, where it's like, it is just as much about how you care for others in your community as it is about who and what you are, and that really calls out to me.

JB: Do you want to just talk about those books a little more? I've read Stone Butch Boys, but I haven't heard of the other one.

MA: Like The Persistent Desire is a collection of essays. I will admit to being a little bit, what's the word? Not. Yeah, I was doing the pretentious thing where I drop a title that I've read parts of, but not the whole thing.

JB: I get that.

MA: But basically, I believe it's called The Persistent Desire: a Butch Femme Reader. And it has a bunch of essays from like, butches and femmes, like exploring their like, relationships to the terms and like, their like, and how they perceive like community relations that I think. And the pieces that I have seen are very good. And I do mean to read more, but then I don't read more.

JB: Yeah I've seen, um, like a couple of femme lesbians I know have talked about how, it's like, femininity in a way that is very different from the femininity of like a straight woman or something like that. Is that how you feel too?

MA: Yeah. Yeah I think. I feel like it's, in the very best way possible, like, it's more performative, like. Like, I don't mean this as in, like, performative as in hollow. I mean more as in, like, there's an intentionality to its construction, at least for me, like, that I don't think I felt when I did identify, like, differently.

JB: Yeah, that makes sense. Like, it's like instead of just being, like, assigned that role and just having society tell you that's how you act, you're like claiming it kind of as yours in a way. And it's like intentionally what you are choosing to do.

MA: Exactly.

JB: That's cool. Okay. Okay. Going back to your, maybe not childhood, but just like your past a little bit. When did you start to question your gender or even your sexuality since you say they're intertwined?

MA: Okay, that's a whole journey. Like it's a process of, like, I first started questioning my sexuality around middle school. Went through a bunch of labels, like. This is, like, the part that's kind of embarrassing to say. Like, identified as pan for a sec, because I thought that was more inclusive. Which in hindsight, little me you don't know what you're talking about.

JB: It's like still a thing in the queer community, so. No, that's, that's valid.

MA: Like, there's, like, vaguely, bi. Then, I had my first girlfriend in high school, and she was a piece of shit to me, but I, like, but, you know, like, that was still like a big turning point for me where I recognized myself as a lesbian. And then it's very funny, actually, the name that I have is my legal name, but it is not the one that I was originally given. And I changed my name. But this actually came before I really started questioning my gender identity. Like, for a while. I've pretty much always had kind of a bunch of trans friends, usually transmasc, like in my life, you know? So I usually go, yeah, I know. Like we made up gender. Good for you guys. You know, like, but I'm fine. I'm fine where I am. Except when I realized maybe I wasn't, you know, like, we're, it's like, hey, wait, you know, if, we're if, like, if this is how we look at the notion of womanhood. I don't think that applies to me. Where do I go now? So... I do identify as non-binary, but I choose to use pronouns that aren't they/them because I kind of want to reject the way that, like, we've kind of started to position they/them as like a third binary option, you know, like we're like, yes, okay. Are you man, woman, or they? Okay. But that still doesn't really feel what I want to get at. Like, and so for a second I tried to use, just no pronouns, which some people were good about. Some people weren't. Some people were just flagrantly confused, you know, like. I mean, I don't know that I'm, like, getting back into the notion of, like, looking at history and then, like. Seeing other people who felt external to these notions really, like, drew me to the use of ze/hir. Like. So. Yeah. Does that answer the question?

JB: Yeah, no, it's all good information. I mean, the questions are just to prompt you to share. So. Yeah. You said something about the history of the usage of those pronouns?

MA: I don't know, like. Like if we look at, like, going. Back to natural "Stone Butch Blues," looking at Leslie Fineberg, who also, like used ze/hir and, like, I don't know. Seeing like that sort of external to these ideas of man and woman, you know, but still using like this term. Like really, I think it makes me feel connected historically, like, air quotes, like I'm doing it right, you know, the same way I felt when like for my playwriting class, we had to write a tragedy. So I went with something-like with adapting a Greek myth, you know, like. I felt like, I'm doing it right, you know. Like, it's not like it's that, like... is that a simile that makes sense. Right?

JB: Yeah. I think it does.

MA: Yeah.

JB: Okay. We kind of talked about it. So, I guess it's just kind of getting back into like the way that you identify, what is euphoric to you and what is dysphoric to you?

MA: I think that like. I don't often experience dysphoria, but I know that I have in the past. Like I used to work at the, I think, one of the student dining halls my freshman year, and like. You know, they made us wear the uniforms with the with this really ugly, poorly fitting t-shirt. And like, these black slacks that didn't really fit me well, like, rubber nonstick shoes and, like, hair pulled up in a bun into this baseball cap. And like, I did not feel like myself. Like. I don't know. I think. I don't know if it was just the uniformity of it or like. The vague, like. Masculinity of like, hair back under a hat, you know. Like in a way that like. But it just did not feel like me. And like. For things that make me feel euphoric. I have to give props to my collection of absolutely garish hats. Like, I have some. Like, I'm not wearing one right now because it's like a zoom interview, and I don't even have the hat in front of the camera. But I have many. Very. Like, lacy, like, beaded things, like, on top of my head. Big fan of the eccentricity of having prescription heart shaped glasses.

JB: Those are prescription?

MA: Yes they are.

JB: That's awesome.

MA: Like, sort of, corsets when I use them, especially like as a practical measure for my back pain. Where it feels like this crossroads between like. Doing something that is usually considered. Like, useless or just to be pretty, you know? But also it's serving this purpose for my own well-being. Sort of vintage or faux vintage dresses like, especially the ones that like fit sort of tied up at the top and then sort of flare out into something twirly, like walking around with a parasol. And then I also have one of my artifacts, which actually would be a good example.

JB: Yeah. Go ahead.

MA: Chose not to wear it. [Holds up pink tank top with "BUTCH BAIT" written on the front]

JB: Ah, lovely.

MA: Oh, I got it from, like, queer artist on Etsy who, like, I'd been following for a while and, like, I don't know, it got here and I just felt so pretty and so, like, me in it, had to resist the urge to bring it on, like a family trip to like, to a beach in California, cause I'm like, I feel like this is not the right time, sadly.

JB: Yeah. I love that shirt. I've seen those shirts before. That's awesome. So do you like this shirt because it it, like, feels nice to wear and like it provides you comfort? Or do you does it help you, like, present in the way you want to?

MA: Both.

JB: Both. It does look very comfy.

MA: Yeah. Like. I know it's. Been a bit of a journey getting comfortable with like baring my stomach again, like as someone who grew up, like, if not fat, bullied for being fat, you know, like and that's been a journey I've been on where like last summer, I actually managed to do a bikini once, like I went to a river and it was, it was fine. Like it was fine. Yeah. I would also say that like as far as like. For, like, gender euphoria in relation to performance as a social role like. I do feel very much myself when I'm looking after the people I care about, you know, like. I'm a good friend to have when you're sick. I'm like, oh, do you need soup? I can make soup! You know.

JB: I had a thought I'm trying to remember what it was. So okay, so you mentioned being bullied because you're fat. And I know it's like kind of women are expected to be skinny, especially in the US. Did that ever feel like restrictive to you? Or any parts of femininity, kind of like, restricting to you?

MA: It's actually an interesting question because like... For a while, I was fat, like up until, like towards the end of high school and then at the end of high school, during the pandemic. I spontaneously lost a lot of weight. I'm going with like, my best guess is from stress, like depression and just fundamentally eating less because of depression. You know, like, and for a few years I was like suddenly skinny, which was weird, like in a way where I felt prettier, and then I felt bad for feeling prettier because it's like, damn, I thought I cultivated such good body neutrality. What happened? You know? And I was cold all the time. And kind of blue, you know. But recently, this summer, I don't entirely know, Like, why? Because it's like the human body is a mystery. It's a process. And I really do mean to get regular checkups and then I don't do that, you know, like, but I did, like, gain more weight again. And it's honestly been nice. Like. I don't get cold all the time like I, the only flaw is like, is that a lot of my favorite things really don't fit me right anymore. I'm like, that's like, that gets me with like sort of disconnect from myself. But like, I do feel like it feels more natural to be at this size for me, you know.

JB: Kind of along the same vein as that, when have you felt most at home in your body?

MA: Honestly, I think now like. Or at least, it's the most myself I've been in this form that I have been so far, you know, like. Again, like, I really do try to cultivate that neutrality. Like my body is like, it is like it is where I live, you know? Like. And I don't see a lot of use and, like, having favorite parts of it or like least favorite parts. This whole, like, I'm taking another acting class this term because I'm like, I'm double majoring in theater. And like our professor had us journal about like, what's your favorite part of your body? What's your least favorite part of your body? Was it always like this? Like it is, it's very useful, nonjudgmental, like, so we can have that information about ourselves. It's about movement. Like about feeling at home in your corporeal form. But I'm like, Andrew, it's like asking you to pick a favorite wheel of my car, you know? I don't know, I feel like my body does what I want. Like what I try to do with it. It takes me where I need to go. I, like, I feel more myself than I have for a long time, I think, if ever.

JB: That's nice. You mentioned theater. Did you- how long have you done theater for?

MA: On and off for forever. Like, always. Like always very much loved it when I was little. Like, I love the attention. I'm good at memorizing-Hello. You are not allowed on the table, you idiot. [Picks up a cat off of the table] You are not allowed on the table. No, your paws are stinky. They don't go on the kitchen table. Excuse me.

JB: No, you're good. I can't control my cat either.

MA: Yeah, no. He knows better. He knows he's not supposed to be on the kitchen surfaces and yet. Okay, so I don't know, since I was really little. I did a couple years in high school, like basically it was all like from a young age up until, like, the end of middle school. And then I went to high school and had like all of my love for it, like all my dreams, loves crushed by like the asshole director we had, you know, who was very preferential, you know, like, if you were not one of the four people out of each class, that he liked, you were kind of shit out of luck. And so, like, that definitely got to me, like on a major level. And then, I think I kind of just let that be for a, like, a while. Until my sophomore year of college, when my best friend, like he, by sheer coincidence, like moved to my hometown when I was studying remotely there or like, no, he was, he moved to my hometown my senior year of high school during the pandemic. Like, we had met online and like, now, like, he's actually one of the people that I met through "The Danger Days" album. That's neither here nor there, like. But basically, he, by sheer freak accident, moved to my hometown. So, like we spent that summer like, hanging out and like we moved in together my sophomore year and I dragged him back to college at OSU after his year of hell working at Safeway. And like, the thing is, he went to like a theater school, like, for his first year of college. Like he went to, like, a very nice theater school. And like, so he jumped into the theater program here and through a long campaign of psychological warfare, dragged me with him. Like it's a long, drawn out battle to get me to pick up a theater minor because, like, you're already taking these classes with me and, like doing these things, you know? And then, like earlier this term, I met with my advisors and came to the realization that you could also double major with one more term of school, so.

JB: So you decided to do it?

MA: Yeah. I'm like, I don't know. I'm still not a person who, really gets cast in things like, and that definitely gets to me in the self-esteem. But like, it's all a process I know. Like, and a part of me worries on some level that it like, has to do with my gender. Where, like, I wonder if people are confused because I do openly use ze/hir pronouns. And like, you will, like, I will see teachers who are wonderful people who I get along with, who like I have a lot of respect for, but they like just kind of, like, awkwardly talk around me if they need to refer to me in class or like stuff like that, or like. I get this sense that they don't really understand what's going on and are too scared to ask and don't really know what to do with me. Like. But, you know, like I have involvement in other ways. I wrote for the One Act festival last year. I'm writing for the One Act Festival this year, and my honors thesis is actually going to be a full length play next winter. Like. I'm thinking of doing something based off of, like, off of the unfinished epic poem Christabel, by, like, Coleridge, which is cited as one of the, frequently cited as a source for, like the novella Carmilla, from which I stole my first name, I think.

JB: That's cool. Yeah.

MA: Yeah, like. So most of my life, in some way. But I think only for the last few years that I've been, like, serious about it, in a way.

JB: I'm wondering if that influenced your gender in any way. Only because you talked about, like, the intentionality of, like, choosing femininity for yourself. It's like also something about like putting on a role and like-.

MA: Yeah, no, like I that is. I think that is, it has to do with why I articulate gender in the context of performance. You know, like. Like I would argue that, you know, like on some level, like most use of gender is, you know, like where we have these agreed upon, like social roles and like, and functions, you know, there's like if you want to get very stereotypical, go back to the 50s, like there's lines to it like that "Hi, honey. How was your day?" of it all. You know, like I think that they're definitely, I definitely classify my gender in a performative aspect, you know, like. Like. Okay, honestly, a lot of my favorite articles of clothing are, like, old costume jewelry or stuff that I bought from, like the costume sale that I run as...I'm also the president of the theater club. I, everything's happening, but, you know, like. So. Yeah. Like. Yeah, definitely. Like I. Definitely. I don't know if, like. I don't know if my history with theater impacted, like, how, like, impacted my gender, but it does impact how I articulate it, I think.

JB: Have you ever read anything by Judith Butler?

MA: Yes. A few of her essays like. No, I also like I also did some reading on similar notions of proto-feminism last term for like just doing a presentation that had to do with Oscar Wilde and his relationship to proto feminism, because we still like it's been many years and we still haven't decided whether Oscar Wilde was a feminist or misogynist. Like.

JB: What is proto-feminism?

MA: Basically, it's like sort of pre-feminist movements that were happening in the UK before we like really see first wave, second wave, like actual like, like, what we class as feminism. Like they had a lot of interesting ideas and goals. Some of them were kind of, like, they recognize genuine injustices in society about like how women were held to higher ethical standards, like social standards than men in this era of England. But their solution was just to say that everyone should be held to these punitive ethical standards and like, like they were, they were on the ball about some things, but like how, like we kind of like, construct, like gender and we could reconstruct it if we chose to. But they were also really off base about what to do with the information they had figured out.

JB: Interesting.

MA: And funny enough, one of the really prominent figures was a Josephine Butler, which always tripped me out when I was reading because I was like, wait, nope. Different one. Different one. Similar ideas, different one. Such a process to read.

JB: Okay, I'm gonna circle back a little bit because I, wrote down something that I wanted to ask you about. So, you mentioned you met your best friend online.

MA: Yeah.

JB: Right. Was that in like. I guess it doesn't really matter. How, were you involved in any, like, queer spaces online?

MA: I was interacting with a fandom space that attract, like, that attracted really queer people. Like I'm like. So basically, I met a lot of the most important people in my life who I still keep in touch with, like around the world, online. I met them on this, like, roleplay server, like for, role playing original characters within the universe of the concept album "Danger Days," like by My Chemical Romance and like, I think that a lot of the themes of that album attracts like people who are like, if you're really into it, there's honestly a high chance that you're queer, that you feel very alienated, that you feel very like...out of control of your life. As if like, as if you were, like sort of controlled by, if you were, like, limited by circumstances outside of your control, like. And yeah, that attracted a lot of queer people with, like, and everyone else at the time did identify as trans. I was the only cis person for a sec.

JB: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Because Gerard Way, right, is the head. I've seen some pictures of him and like, I don't know, very feminine clothing.

Micalla: In a nurse outfit.

JB: Exactly, exactly.

MA: Yeah. Like that is like. That is a non-binary musician like, queer artist right there. Like. Yeah. Like so like you already have a lot of queer people if you're looking at like My Chemical Romance enjoyers, but if you're looking at people who are just really obsessed with Danger Days. That is like, that's like such a subset, you know.

JB: Yeah, I don't really listen to them much, but I definitely know a lot of people that do and are very queer. Kind of, around the same area of online queer spaces. Do you use social media at all?

MA: I use Tumblr.

JB: I also use Tumblr.

MA: Like, and that is like. That is my like, connection to like not just queer community, but like butch femme community in particular. Like, I have my own little, side blog like, but, air quotes, a "Not Safe For Tumblr" one, you know, because Tumblr has had very weird decisions about adult content over the years, and it's who knows what it even is anymore, you know, like. But like, that's. Like. What can I say? I'm a civilized internet native. I don't, I'm not horny on main, you know.

JB: Speaking of, do you think being involved in those communities impacted your gender in any way, especially because you were like-

MA: Yeah, but because it like, helped me see other people with similar experiences to me, like who are who articulated their gender within like the terms of fem, even if they were like more cis, you know. Like we're like. An examination of. Like. The use of butch and feminist social roles, in addition to like descriptors that like, really spoke to me in my experiences.

JB: Did you just kind of stumble upon those spaces one day, or did you like, seek them out when you're like, I feel like this applies to me.

MA: It was just an indirect thing that happened. You know, like I follow like I follow a bunch of other queer people. Like, I see a few interesting posts, you know, that get it at like. These like, they're talking about like the unique experience of like, butches in relation to gender. I'm like, that's interesting. Like I follow a few more people who are talking about that. They're like, they're also talking about. Like. Like they're also reblogging stuff from femmes. Like it's like it's cyclical. It's just like slow absorption into, like, into a space, you know.

JB: Yeah. That definitely happens on Tumblr.

MA: Yeah. Like it's a process like this aside the search functions are so broken I don't think it's possible to effectively seek things out there.

JB: They're terrible. It's so bad. All right, so. Social media, queer spaces probably had a pretty significant influence. Did anything else have an influence? I don't know if you're religious, but if your religion did, like a job you had, where you were- where you grew up or anything like that?

MA: Like I wasn't raised in any particular religion, like both of my parents were, and they hated it. And like. They kind of just threw their hands up like and said, like, you see, ze will figure it out, you know? Like, just give me a lot of room to experiment myself, but like, never really went into their own beliefs. So like, I'm like, I'm agnostic, like, poly- like, but colored by my experiences as, like as a middle school Wiccan, you know. Like. Like like, yeah, there might be Gods, but if there are they're dicks. You know, like. So I don't I don't really think it did a lot for my conception of gender. Like. Besides giving me enough, like, enough fore-knowledge to kind of dismiss anything like that goes on about like the divine feminine, you know. Like. I. I don't know, I think really like a big social experience growing up for me that was like formative in some way, I don't know if I could articulate the impact it had on my gender but, Rocky Horror Live Shows. Like, but my home town Eugene had, I don't know if they still have after the pandemic, but they had at least a consistent shadow cast that did like three shows a year. 3 or 4, honestly, but usually three like Halloween, Valentine's Day and Pride. And like. I would try to go to every one. Like. It was a really wonderful place to blow off steam. Be among people where I felt understood. Like. Like the way I was, always like, the way I articulated it, after having gone to one high school football game to support my friend and marching band, it's like, oh, this is what straight people do instead of going to Rocky. You know, like, the societally acceptable place to scream and throw things and like be profane and, you know, like.

JB: Do you want to just, like, talk about what Rocky Horror is? Because, I've seen it before, but for people who haven't.

MA: Oh, yeah. No. Absolutely. So Rocky Horror Picture Show is a cult classic film adaptation of a stage musical that. It has Tim Curry. It's a point of contention for a lot of queer people. Now, on whether or not it is good representation, which I would argue in some respects it isn't. But also, it's not exactly trying to be, like. I think that its value comes not from like its value as a piece of representation, but more for the culture surrounding. It, like. Where there would be midnight showings. Like. With audience call and response that like, reshapes the way that the film is experienced. Am I missing anything, do you think?

JB: No. And I think that explanation about, like, whether it's good representation, I don't think it was trying to be either, but I think it's kind of sort of like the word queer, like it was like claimed. It's like, I know this was probably made to make fun of us in some way, but like, we're going to take it as our own and we're going to build that culture around it.

MA: Yeah. Like Richard O'Brien, like is a person who, like, has been outspoken about having, like their own explorations of gender, but also has come out the other end with some weird opinions about trans women. Like, and it kind of shows in his work.

JB: Of course.

MA: You'll pardon me? I need to, I need to get some water for myself. Okay. I kind of like, my throat is getting to me. Excuse me.

JB: No. Go ahead! Go ahead, I gotta look over my questions anyway, see if I missed anything.

MA: And I did remember another, like, reasonable influence, like. Like I'm autistic. No, this is not been like diagnosed by a professional, but like, through, like, looking like I have a very high RAADS-R Test score, like, I. It is a useful, like, even if it is not like diagnostically confirmed, it is a useful term for articulating myself, you know, and I think it also comes with this degree of alienation. Of like, needing to understand why, like about certain rules like. And I know that there is a high prevalence of like gender nonconformity and transgenderism within, like, like, within, like, statistically, within like for autistic people and, like, who am I to buck the trend?

JB: Okay. You mentioned you had, you said artifacts when you brought out the shirt. Did you have any more to share?

MA: Yeah. I've got a nice, like, French rolling pin.

JB: Amazing. And what about what made you choose that?

MA: The way it feels when I hold. It like I love to bake, I like I have. This wonderful pie cookbook that I bought at like the antique mall that I lost in a move that torments me every day. I miss it, you know? But like, I don't know, I, like, using it. I've been able to, like, make things that bring comfort to the people around me, like I. Like, again, circling back to my best friend who I met online, who I lived with for a couple of years before he moved to Alaska. It's all the same. I'm following up there as soon as I finish out here. But, like, I don't know, like. Like, I one of the primary uses of this, like, was to make, like I made a set of like. like he's from the south originally, and like, I made him like this set of chest hearts, which was like a thing that he didn't even totally know exists. But it was like a thing. And it was like, interesting. Like, I don't know, it's. It's the way that it makes the place I am feel more like home for the people around me and for myself, but also holding it. It feels like a weapon, like I could hit someone with this, you know, like. And I think that there's that utility that like association with stereotypically feminine thing, like. That space for it, like it's used as a tool to like, care for the people around me that really, like, makes it feel connected to my gender.

JB: You mentioned stereotypical feminine things. I feel like most people try and lean away from stereotypes, but do you feel like do you like to kind of, like, accept those in a way?

MA: I like to play with them, you know. I enjoy what I do enjoy. Like, I've always had a great affection permitting and baking, you know, like I am that person, but also like I used to play roller derby and like, and I believe in like, and I try to fix my own car even if I suck at it. You know, like. And I don't know, like. Like, I try to let myself be open to enjoy, like what makes me happy. Even if it does, like, fall within, like stereotypical bounds.

JB: Yeah, that's very valid. You mentioned roller derby. I, yeah. Do you want- can you talk more about that?

MA: Yes I can. From the ages of 10 to 17, I played junior roller derby in my hometown. For a few years, I was, co-captain of the team when I was, like, older, and, I haven't really done anything with it for, like, a long time, I, since the pandemic. I mean to reach back out and then I don't. But yes, like. I'm like. I think, one of the first, like, crushes I had as a queer person that I was aware of, was on one of my fellow skaters. And like, she did not like me back. And it was what it was, you know. Like. But also, one of the first people that I like came out to was my roller derby coach. And like. She was very. It's the word like. Nonchalant about it at the time, which was helpful in its own way, like, like. And she mentioned being grateful that I trusted her with it. And then, like, we were Facebook friends for a while, I don't know, I ditched Facebook after whole thing, you know? But fundamentally, like, I don't know, there would be times when I was older when I would see her post with like, her girlfriend's on there and I'm like, oh, wow, I didn't know. Like was just like, again, it's like it's one of those sports like rugby, which my mother played when I was growing up. But like, that I think on some level attracts queerness. And like it definitely gave me more space for community there. Yeah.

JB: Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I, I don't know anybody that plays roller derby and I've never actually been to a match, but it just seems like the type of thing that would attract queer people. It's true. Also softball, I know, I played softball, there was a lot of queer people there.

MA: Rugby is like a hotbed. Like it's a shame that I'm not much of one for running, like. Or like projectile sports. Always afraid it'll hit me in the face, like.

JB: Okay. Oh, you mentioned it coming out. I was I wanted to ask about your coming out process and what that was like, whether you ever really came out or just kind of, like, started, you know, acting as yourself, and you're just like...

MA: Like, I mean. Like, I think that there's many great quotes that I cannot recite off the top of my head about, like, how it's very much like a process thing where there's, there's no time that you can effectively just say "hi, like, I'm a queer person I use x, y, z, blah, blah, blah," you know, and then everyone will know forever. Not to mention the fluidity of identity and how, like exploring different identities, like, necessitates, in some like, to some extent like, multiple coming outs. Fundament-like. I don't know. Like. I was always comfortable with my sexuality, like coming out with my family. I knew that they'd be cool, you know? But gender was the weirder one because first of all, like my family did not react well to the name change. Which pre-dated my gender like exploration and, like, clearly both my parents were insecure in different ways about it, even though like it had long been understood that my birth name never really fit right. Like, I when I was very little, like I used to like try different names every day. Which my kindergarten teachers were not a fan of, you know, like my mom along with, like. She always knew that it didn't quite fit. But you know, we needed something to call you, like. But after a few years, they have come around on that front. Oh, actually, circling back, it is funny. I had, like, I had, like, zeroed in on the name, Mircalla Adams, Like, in high school. I knew what I wanted to do. I was preparing for it my freshman year, like of a college, but, I took a class called "vampires: race, gender and sexuality," like, it's an honors colloquia. I, like my first term and I realized, oh, wait, Carmilla is on the reading list. Nope. Abort. We can't do this thing. They will know where it is from. We cannot do this.

JB: Is that name in the book?

MA: Yes. Like, actually, yeah. Like, because like. The whole like one of the plot points is that like Carmilla repeatedly uses, like, anagrams for her name. You know?

JB: Oh right, right.

MA: Like, she originally was. Countess Mircalla Carnstein, like, and I don't know.

JB: That was cool. I, I've read it, and I just, like, you know, didn't remember, but. Yeah, I do remember the anagram thing.

MA: 55:50 Lehane is also from my gay awakening of Faith Lehane from Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

JB: So your name is very vampire based?

MA: A little bit, yeah, yeah.

JB: Maybe not intentionally, but it's just ended up that way.

MA: Yeah. Like I consider myself a scholar of vampires. I like I have a pilot in my back pocket that I like to describe as if it's like if "First Kill" understood what a metaphor is.

JB: "First Kill," like the Netflix show? Yeah.

MA: The one that was like. It wasn't good. Wasn't good like I genuinely believe. But like it did get better towards the end. It was. It had room to be something fun, like kind of fun and hokey in the way that like a lot of old 90s shows are, but it just didn't have the room to keep making it, kind of. Like and also had a really bad start. Like the people fell off. I, I know I. I'm not one of the people who's like clamoring to have it renewed. I don't hold out hope for that.

JB: I don't think it was, I think it got canceled.

MA: Oh yeah it did. It got very canceled. But I've seen people like try to do, like the. No, guys, if we just all rewatch it this week, it'll show Netflix, that it needs to be renewed. No, no. That's not going to happen.

JB: You mentioned your major. One of your majors is new media communications. Yeah, what is that? I'm curious.

MA: It's kind of like the study of. How human beings communicate in the modern, like, over history, and then in the modern era, with emergent forms of media, like, how the internet has affected human communication and stuff like that. I'm getting the BFA, which has more of a focus on production. So I have more focus on, like, how to make things in emerging medias, how to make things in traditional medias, like they make us go through like studio art classes and, like, the way I like to think of it as it's like learning a little bit of everything so that I know that I'm capable of learning anything. Like last term, we did like I had to take a class on 3D modeling in Maya, which I hated every second of, but I made it through, like. And I was able to export something I made into unity and got to like, walk around in this like little gazebo I made. It was pretty cool. It's like. I've always had an interest in sort of media analysis, like symbolism, themes, motifs. Like, how, like what, like how what we make represents what we believe. Like, for my high school, I was in like I was an IB person. I did not take an IB, any of the IB tests, but they still made me write the extended essay, which was like a mini thesis, and I wrote mine basically on how "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and "Homestuck" represented like the same idea of growing up using the metaphor of super powers, but in ways that were representative of like how we perceive the idea of growing up with the times that they were made, like. Stuff like that, which drew me to new media, I've never really thought of myself as much of an artist. Like, even though I've, I think it's always being surrounded by people who who did and were very good and like, I never felt quite like them, you know. But I do now. Or at least I'll call myself one now, or I'll sort of self-flagellatingly call myself one where I go, "I feel like such an asshole when I say this, but I'm an artist." You know, like. Yeah, yeah. I think it's just learning how to make things like screenplays, 3D models, video games, all sorts of stuff.

JB: You mentioned Homestuck. I'm curious if you've read the Locked Tomb series.

MA: Yup! Yup. I'm-yup.

JB: Yeah, yeah, I just. Yeah, cause I know that Tamsyn Muir used a lot of Homestuck references in that. But I've never, like, I don't know what you call, interacting with Homestuck.

MA: So, here's the thing. It's actually not very textually referential like. But it is like, it doesn't make references to quotes or things like that. But structurally, you can see a lot of similarities and you can see like where, when, Tamsyn Muir, as an author who used to write Homestuck fanfiction might have like come up with like, might have sourced some ideas, you know, like parallels between Ianthe and Vriska are common and completely earned. Like. And then the notion of, like the bubbles in the River is very, very, very similar to like the notion of dream bubbles where dead people are talking in Homestuck, like there's a like. Yeah. Like it is a very formative media for me. Like like, here's the thing, reading all of Homestuck leaves, like, brain damage. Like a special kind of brain damage. The same like, it's a similar kind to the kind of brain damage you get after watching all of "Supernatural," which I have also done. Don't do that, it's a bad decision. Like where it's you will never be the same again after it.

JB: Okay, I guess I won't read Homestuck then.

MA: Honestly, it's, there's worse things to have rot your brain in middle school. Like. Sure, there are worse. There are worse things. Look, it's a very interesting text. Like it's been a while since I've read it myself, but, you know, like, it still sticks with me, like.

JB: So it seems like you interact with a lot of media, both in like your major and just like in general. I'm curious if you do have like any queer media that you think is like good or, like not that it can be perfect, but that is like maybe your favorite one or whatever.

MA: Like, I have a great affection for the Locked Tomb series. I see an uncomfortable amount of myself in Harrowhark Nonagesimus. But that's neither here nor there and no kind of red flag about me. I, like I mentioned earlier. Like. Oh, yes. Actually, no. Like, I was going to talk about "Hairspray" more, but I've actually been reading a lot of Clive Barker lately, and he's a, he's a British writer. Like, was kind of bigger in the 90s. But he wrote a lot of short stories and some books and some plays and wrote and directed adaptations of some of them. And like, the really thing, the things he's really famous for would be "Hellraiser." Like, where he wrote the original story that was based off of. But at some point this summer, I watched his movie "Nightbreed," which is an adaptation of his novella "Cabal," and like, you could tell that it was made by a gay man. Like the queerest, heterosexual romance I've ever seen and it was fascinating. Like, like, it's a whole story about, like, personal, like about, like, being cast as a monster and being alienated and attacked and, for it. And like, being unable to trust, like, medical, like professionals and law enforcement. And I'm like, yeah, I see that. Or like reading some of his, like, stories, like there's this. Like there's. They're weird in a way that queer art isn't really allowed to be anymore. Like the way that we kind of like, as like, as a world very dominated by like our relationship with advertisers. And like. How we articulate morality that has this fixation on assimilation and, like, "being the right kind of queer" like, I think it's really stifled a lot of queer art, in like, the recent years, like, where there's this focus on being palatable and reading these short stories from the Books of Blood, it's, they're, they're, that insecurity is not there yet, like there is already this knowledge of like, not being acceptable. So it gets just, so it creates these things that are weird and interesting and kind of problematic, but in a, in a way that is interesting to me. You know, like. I don't know, like. It's like such a crapshoot between like. Oh, this is, this is kind of sweet actually. Like this is a story about like alienation. And then, wow, that is some of the weirdest, like, that is a weird offhand reference to sex. Okay, man. Sure. Okay. If that's what you're into. Cheers to you, buddy, you know, like, I think, I think that, like, going forward, we need to be more comfortable with discomfort. And we're not good at it lately. You know, great love of Clive Barker. Yeah, but there was something I thought of, and then I lost.

JB: It happens. No, I so agree about, like, palatability of queerness. It's like such a thing, which doesn't make sense because in and of itself, like the name, it's like it's not supposed to be. But some people got it in their head that if they try to conform enough, then they'll be accepted. What's the word for that, there's a word for it.

MA: Assimilate. Respectability politics.

JB: Yes. That's what I'm almost thinking, like homo-nationalism, in a way. But that's not. Yeah.

MA: No, I know what you mean.

JB: Yeah. Definitely interesting. Yeah, I'm- new media communications. Do you work in, like, advertising and stuff?

MA: The thing is, it's a very flexible major. I could work in advertising if I wanted. To, which I could, like, I might like because, you know, God knows that, like, when I move in, like with my best friend and hopefully, like, once we move the rest of the people from the server out because there's like three others who live across America. And then one of is in Scotland, you know, someone's going to need to be making money. I'm like, if that has to be me. Like, I'll do it. You know.

JB: You'll be the breadwinner of the household.

MA: Exactly.

JB: I was just kind of wondering because, like, you're talking about being, like, normal enough for people. And also, you talked about how in the theater, you think your pronouns kind of like, maybe put the directors off of, like, casting yourself like that. And I was wondering that, like, correlated at all with your major, maybe your future career.

MA: Not, I don't know, like. I, I enjoy writing, I like, I guess ultimately, like the eventual goal is to make weird queer art with what I learn, you know, like. I enjoy abstract painting. I've written some plays. I'm working on a short one now about like, the sense of alienation and like how you can't really ever go home as the same person you were when you left like that. The space that you left is going to fill in with other things. And there's the same room, isn't there for you, you know. Like, which is going to be its own metaphor about queerness, you know, like. I just, I think. So, yeah. I think so, like, you know. I, I want to make room, I want to make art with room for people like me, like, my ideal goal with the major is to do some kind of writing. Maybe that's some plays. Maybe that's for like TV, because I work well in collaborative settings where I can bounce ideas off and where I have guidance on where it's supposed to go. Like, limitations always help. But I also have a particular interest in maybe writing for video games, because I think that interactive nature is really interesting, from like, just an analytic, from a creative standpoint, like.

JB: Have you ever-do you play video games?

MA: Yes.

JB: Have you ever played Celeste?

MA: Yes. I did not get very far, like.

JB: It's hard.

MA: Yeah, I think. I saw people recommending it in relation to Hollow Knight. And I like Hollow Knight better.

JB: I do too, but I've just heard it's like a trans metaphor. Yeah, yeah. So, you think you're-

MA: Yeah, yeah, like, climbing the mountain?

JB: Yeah. So are you thinking like that kind of video game writing, maybe?

MA: Yeah. Like I'm personally really interested in sort of things that explore the impact of choice. Like I have a giant soft spot for the Fable games. Like, which are like, oh, you are a fantasy hero. You make meaningful choices that affect the world. Like, it's, there's interesting things in relation to how it treats queerness, because like in the first game, like you could only play as a guy, but you could still like romance male NPCs. Like, and I was like looking up to that l, like, I looking it up for some reason, and I just come across like a fucking ancient game facts board. Like we're a bunch of guys are talking about how they like to use that to like, roleplay gay bashing. Which I'm like, fuck!

JB: What!?

MA: This is not what I was looking for, you know?

JB: Yeah. Jeez. No.

MA: Yeah. Or, like. But like the later ones where you can play as a woman, like, you can romance other woman, and it's fine. No one gives you shit except, like, there is an interesting little tick where, like, there is a quest in the second one where you, like, have to romance an NPC for reasons and like the good option is you marry them. The bad option is you give them a letter that makes them kill themselves. It's, there's, there's, there's a convoluted backstory to why this is happening. Like it's not relevant, but like, fundamentally, that character will always be the opposite gender of your player character. There is no way to complete that quest as a good person who is a homosexual. And that always stands out to me like. But also, that's the game where there's a quest that lets you trans your gender at the end of it. It's, it's whack. Like, it's, it's interesting the way things are like bounced between sort of, like, interesting or useful or relatable things, but also not understanding what they're doing sometimes, like.

JB: Yeah.

MA: I like I would like to see that sort of thing approached with more intentionality.

JB: It's. I feel like sometimes I forget that queer people are a minority and the vast majority of developers are going to be straight people catering to straight audiences. Yeah, but there's always hope.

MA: Yep.

JB: Okay. One of my last area of questioning, I guess, is surrounding your college experience, whether that's influenced your gender in any way?

MA: I think the experience I've had that really, like articulated-like helped me refine my ideas about my gender weren't really connected to OSU or being in college. I think that they were mostly like extrinsic things, like the people I talked to, like things I looked into with my own volition, you know. That weren't related to my classes, like.

JB: That's fair.

MA: I remember taking this like Men and Masculinity class for honors credit last year, and like, I was like, oh, so are we going to talk about, like, other existent forms of masculinity? Are we going to talk about, like butches? Or? No, no, this is patriarchy 101. And I'm like, oh, okay. I, I've read a lot of this, I know. Okay. Sure. Like this wasn't what I was expecting, you know, like and I think I do like, like I also like find myself in a bit of a bubble sometimes, you know. Like, like I remember doing a presentation in, like, a different honors class I'm taking about, like, just like we're supposed to do something about, like, creativity in the quotidian, like about, like just exciting, average forms of creativity. And I'm like, so creativity and gender. I know a bunch of people with really wild creative genders. And I've got one myself, you know, like, and then I, like, went around the room like, so like everyone wants to, like, try and articulate their self and like they'll talk and they're like. And then I remember, oh yeah, people are cis and don't think about these things. Wow. How do you bear.

JB: The Men and Masculinities, that's a Women, Gender and Sexuality studies course, right? Did you take any other of those or any queer studies courses besides that? Like Vampires, Race, Gender and Sexuality is a colloquia, so it's like honors college, but I think kind of tied into it. And like, it wasn't for credit. Like it was like. Basically, I got to sit in like when I was in high school, one of my summers, like my mom's ex-girlfriend was teaching a class, like, was basically doing like, women, like, women-gender-sexuality 101, like as a summer course. And she just let me sit in on it and do like, like I kept up. I did the writing. I did the reading, you know, like, but like I did take it, but not for credit. Like I'm like, so no, I have taken other things.

JB: Yeah. So most of your learning, you said you did on your own volition and not through OSU. Okay. I respect that. Finally, I guess, do you think how it like, do you think OSU's a welcoming campus for queer people?

MA: I've never experienced anything to the contrary, I think.

JB: That's fair.

MA: When people I talk to are generally pretty cool about like who I am as a person and like. There might be some degree of confusion with relation to, like, how to address me and how to like refer to me. But generally, as a rule, like, I'm, I feel welcomed.

JB: Okay. That's all the questions I had. I don't know if you had any other artifacts or that you wanted to share.

MA: Those are the ones I brought.

JB: Okay. I love them. Okay. Did you have anything else you want to add? Or you feel like we didn't cover?

MA: Nothing I can think of.

JB: Okay. Awesome. Well, thank you for this interview. It was very fun.

MA: Thank you.