Terry Cryer Oral History Interview, November 6, 2017

SAMUEL SCHMIEDING: Good morning. This is Dr. Samuel Schmieding, Oregon State University. I am here in the home of Terry Cryer, Trades Maintenance II, or, actually, Jack-Of-All-Trades-Maintenance Technician, Construction Worker, and Artist extraordinaire at the Andrews Experimental Forest. We are here today in Terry's home at the Andrews Forest to do an oral history interview that is part of the H.J. Andrews Experimental Forest Oral History Project, Phase II. Terry is the first interview in the second group that we're doing for this project, which will eventually be transcribed and included in one or two archives for preservation purposes but also for people to learn about this important scientific research site. Anyway, Terry, I'm really excited to do this. Thank you for letting me come into your home. Good morning.

TERRY CRYER: Good morning.

SS: Alright. Very good. We're going to get going here, and these interviews are 00:01:00free-flowing. I have questions, but there is no script. You just talk and there's no report card. Just go for it. I will start the same way. Where were you born and raised and follow that up with a little bit of a biographical sketch of your life, especially your early years.

TC: Right. I was born and raised in southwest Louisiana.

SS: What was the name of the town?

TC: Oh, Sulphur, Louisiana.

SS: Sulphur?

TC: Sulphur, yeah.

SS: Sulphur. Now, if I remember you told me before that's about 10 miles outside of Lake Charles, correct?

TC: Yep, yep. On the west side of Lake Charles. Twenty miles from Texas border; 30 miles from the gulf coast.

SS: You're pretty close to Beaumont, Texas, on the other side.

TC: Oh, yeah.

SS: Okay, right. You probably knew some people that got hit by hurricane Harvey and all that rain, huh?

TC: Not really. Most of our relatives live in Houston, Texas. They got hit pretty good, too, but not like some of the other ones, like Texas City, Port 00:02:00Arthur, and Sulphur was only 25 miles from where they got hit hard, but Sulphur didn't get it. They got hit, but not like they did.

SS: Fifty inches of rain will mess up your plants [laughs].

TC: Yeah, oh yeah.

SS: Anyway, tell me about growing up in Sulphur and what did you do and what were the roots of how you came to be who you are in terms of whatever: your affinity for technical things and mechanical things. Of course, even your artistic love that you've developed. TC: Some of that I think I was born with: the mechanical ability, I was born with. My dad was a good teacher on the mechanical side because he was also a mechanical kind of person.

SS: Was he a shop teacher or something?

TC: No, he was just on the service station and trucking business on the side.

SS: One of those guys that could fix anything, right?

TC: He was a jack-of-all-trades, yeah. He could fix anything. He was good at it.

SS: You probably learned from an early time of how to make do and fix things-

TC: Yep. Low budget.

SS: Because probably your first job was in the shop, correct?

TC: Yep. Poor income. It was always a fight to make ends meet. Yeah, I got a lot of good training on how to pull things out of the trash and rebuild it [laughs].

SS: Perfect training for your future job here, right?

TC: Oh, yeah.

SS: Especially in the early years before you had the nice facilities, right?

TC: Oh yeah, we worked on a midnight budget many years [laughs].

SS: I bet you did, and we'll talk about specifics of that later. Describe Sulphur.

TC: Sulphur-small town. Not a lot of people. Mixed. You had Cajuns, you had colored folk, white folk, quite a mixture. They were all integrated with each 00:04:00other. We never had any racial kind of stuff in my hometown. There were a few people that were kind of bigots, but basically, nah. It was a good place to grow up, I think.

SS: How many people in Sulphur, approximately?

TC: Even get in trouble the cops knew my dad and all of them. We'd just haul him in and call Mr. Cryer and he'll take care of it.

CATHY CRYER: I'd say it's a God-fearing, church-going family.

SS: God-fearing, church-going?

TC: Yeah.

SS: What church did you got to when you were young?

TC: Real conservative. Baptist.

CC: All of it Baptist church.

TC: All of it Baptist church.

SS: Southern Baptist?

CC: Yes.

TC: Yeah, Southern Baptist.

SS: Yeah. Because I grew up American Baptist, which is, I used to call it the mellow, milquetoast version of Baptists [laughs].

TC: Right [laughs]. No this was more of the hard core, strict Baptist.

SS: Don't dance except on-well, never [laughs].

TC: [Laughs] Right. The old joke how do you tell the difference between a Baptist and a Catholic?

SS: Tell me.

TC: A Catholic walks into the front door of the bar and a Baptist walks in the backside of the door.

CC: The backdoor.

TC: Or, the backdoor of the bar.

SS: Yeah.

TC: The hard rock Southern Baptist, you didn't walk into of the doors. They were pretty strict.

SS: Yeah, my church was a little different than that. Anyway, so tell me about just your working with your dad in the shop and the whole mechanical thing. A little more detail about-give me some anecdotes about doing that.

TC: He'd work pretty early at the service station.

SS: Really?

TC: I was probably 10 years old when I started putting in time at the service station, evenings and weekends, waiting on people and it didn't take long how to 00:06:00treat people politically correct, professional courtesy comes first. You come last.

SS: The customer's always right.

TC: The customer's always right. Oh yeah. My dad was really big on that.

SS: It's amazing how you can be a good business-whether it's a restaurant, or what have you-and you'll carry that reputation forever, and then there's one bad incident. That thing will color your reputation.

TC: Yep.

SS: It's a good reason why even though you got to bite your tongue sometimes when you're dealing with difficult customers, it usually works out in terms of good business practice.

TC: Most of my trouble was to hold back laughing.

SS: [Laughs].

TC: You'd get some pretty hilarious customers coming in.

SS: Really?

TC: Oh yeah. I remember one of our regular customers was an old black fella and his wife and he would come in once a week on the weekend with her and his hound 00:07:00dog. His wife was always in the backseat and the hound dog was in the front seat [laughs].

SS: Really.

TC: That's just the way it was.

SS: So, the hound dog was in the front?

TC: I wanted to laugh so much.

SS: I don't know where I want to go with that, you know?

TC: My dad said down in that country a 'coon dog's more important than the wife.

CC: That's true-the hunting.

SS: I'll tell you what in the university environment that I live in I would never even say something close to that [laughs], even as a joke.

CC: The women's right would be all over you.

TC: Oh yeah.

SS: Don't you know.

TC: But that was that era. You got to have a good wife, but you have to have a good hunting dog, too.

SS: So, do you hunt a lot?

TC: I did. My dad was an avid hunter and fisherman and he took me-almost every 00:08:00time he went he took me with him.

SS: What did he like to hunt?

TC: I quit hunting when I got back from Vietnam. I lost my interest in hunting.

SS: No, but I mean, your father-

TC: As a kid, mostly small game.

CC: Squirrel, beaver.

TC: Squirrel, 'coon, rabbit. Mostly squirrel.

CC: Deer.

TC: Deer, yep.

SS: I bet fishing was big down there, though, right?

CC: Oh yeah.

TC: Oh yeah, that was the, and it was cheaper.

SS: Well and you were by so much water down there. Because there's Lake Charles, which is a big lake. Then there's the gulf and then everything else.

TC: But mostly the tributaries. That's where all the best fishing is, the Sabine Reserve. They have a lot of reserve fishing areas.

SS: Bass?

CC: Oh yeah.

TC: Bass up the ying-yang. Yeah. Big bass. Good eatin' bass. Hard fightin' bass, 00:09:00oh yeah.

SS: I bet a lot of the meals you had when you were growing up were fish that you caught, right?

TC: Oh yeah. Dad was big on that, too. If you catch it, you're going to eat it. There was no waste in our house.

SS: What year were you born in, Terry?

TC: 1949.

SS: 1949-you mentioned earlier about Vietnam and you mentioned just a minute ago and your aversion to, I take it was because of what happened over there you weren't so excited about using firearms anymore, correct?

TC: Yeah, pretty much.

SS: I mean that's not an atypical response.

TC: Mm-hmm.

SS: To being in a war zone. How old were you when you got drafted? Or did you join up?

TC: No, I was interested. We got picked up for the fourth time by the sheriff in Shreveport, Louisiana.

SS: Oh, so it's one of those things.

TC: Yeah, me and my-

SS: Where you basically said, lesser sentence if you go to war [laughs].

TC: Yeah [laughs].

SS: No, seriously?

TC: The fourth time we walked down the hallway the door to the sheriff's office was open and he saw us, me and my two buddies, and he says do not even book up, just lock them up I'll deal with them in the morning. So, he did. They didn't have to book us. We were already on the books. They locked us up and the next day he sat us down and he said, okay boys, this is enough. Here's your option, you got two options: prison. I think he was exaggerating a little, but anyway that was his words, prison or join the Army.

SS: You were basically doing too much hell raising, right?

TC: Yeah.

SS: You don't have to fill in the gaps [laughs].

TC: Okay.

SS: I get it.

TC: [Laughs] So we said okay, yes sir, we'll take the Army. So, he said okay you 00:11:00call up somebody that can come get you that can take you home, a responsible adult, and we'll write you off. So, we called my folks and Dad didn't want nothing to do with it, so Momma volunteered to come up to Shreveport and pick us up and take us all home. The day I got home my draft notice was in the mail.

SS: You got drafted before you joined up?

TC: No, I didn't get drafted.

SS: Oh, your draft notice.

TC: Yeah, I got the draft notice.

SS: So, you actually went and joined.

TC: My number has been picked.

SS: But you went and joined before that process happened, correct?

TC: That's right.

SS: Oh, okay.

TC: Everybody in my family were all war heroes, you know? And they said it can go hard on you if you let them draft you, so you should join. That'd be the best thing to do.

SS: Because it might give you an option of what branch you-

TC: Yeah, it'd give you the option of more formal training and all that kind of, which, was all a lie. At that time, they were putting everybody where they 00:12:00wanted them [laughs]. Because I put in for Heavy Equipment Operator. That was my own training already. I had experience.

SS: In the Ken Burns movie there's a lot of profound, historically documented examples of all the lies that the government told the people and the soldiers and the generals.

TC: To everybody, that's right [laughs].

SS: Anyway, when I tell you that premise before you actually watch the series you would say that does not surprise me, correct?

TC: Exactly. Yep.

SS: But when you went in you were probably, even though you were a hell raiser, you were probably a good red-white-and-blue American boy, right?

TC: Oh yeah.

SS: You had that kind of attitude, right?

TC: Oh, yeah. I didn't know what drugs was except what you get at the drug store. We did our share of drinking. We were good ol' all-American, blue-blood boys.

SS: Where did you go to basic?

TC: We didn't really know what we were doing. I went to basic training in Ft. Polk, Louisiana.

SS: So close to home, then, huh?

TC: Yep. Got to come home after basics, anyway. I got to come home on weekends. That was kind of nice.

SS: Now, I don't know how traumatic that may have been-and you can or cannot talk about that, but you want to tell me a little bit about Vietnam, or not? That's up to you.

TC: The biggest thing for me was the whole thing was like being in a dream.

SS: Really?

TC: When I got my orders to ship out my first stop was Ft. Ord, California. I think that was in San Diego. Then we flew to Hawaii and then from Hawaii to Vietnam and Saigon, where they dropped us off. Then we got divvied up to the different to the different outfits we were assigned to. That whole thing was 00:14:00like a foggy dream. Just like being in a fog. It never felt real, you know? I got introduced to drugs while I was over there.

SS: You and a whole lot of other guys.

TC: I locked in with the hippie side of the crowd. You were either a hippie or a cowboy. The cowboys had one corner of the barracks and the hippies had the other corner of the barracks. There was a crossover, of course. You had country and western music over there and you had rock-n-roll over here.

SS: Yeah.

TC: That's the way that went.

SS: Right.

TC: It didn't take me long to fit in with the hippie crowd. I just liked their mannerisms better, I guess. I got into everything over there. It was cheap.

SS: Now we know the true origin of your artistic genius, right? [Laughs]

TC: Yeah, right [Laughs].

SS: Go on with that. Sorry.

TC: Anyway, I saw a lot of action. I'm not going to go into any details on all that.

SS: Don't. No, it's okay. That's while I premised the subject, because a lot of people it's kind of hard to talk about.

TC: Our outfit covered a lot of territory. Most of the time we were jungle patrol, fire-based duty, different stuff like that. When we were in the rear, which wasn't very often, we had to do our share of perimeter guard duty. When fourth division pulled out, my time wasn't up, so the rest of us were shipped up to the Americal Division in Chu Lai. I saw probably a little more action in Chu 00:16:00Lai area. It was the same thing, same scenario: we were jungle patrol, fire-based duty, stuff like that. Saw a lot of bad stuff.

SS: Did you do one tour over there?

TC: Yep, one tour.

SS: That was what, 9 months or a year rotation?

TC: Thirteen months.

SS: Thirteen months. Okay.

TC: Because of that overlap thing, you know, one division pulling out and shipped to the other one. I wasn't paying attention anyway. I ended up 13 months and was shipped home.

SS: You where there what year to what year?

TC: From '69 to '71.

SS: Okay, so it was still really bad. That was before it started to wind down.

TC: It was supposed to have started winding down in '69. The last Tet Offensive was in '68.

SS: In '68. That was the one that made everybody realize that we're not probably 00:17:00going to win this war.

TC: Exactly.

SS: Which was a deluded notion, because it was a civil war, really.

TC: Yeah.

SS: No need to go into war strategies and military history but it was a-we were trying to fight that war like we did the last war before that: Korea but especially World War II.

TC: Right.

SS: It's usually the way that-if you look at military history-generals, like World War I they tried to fight that war like they had the Chivalric Wars of the 19th century, but unfortunately, they were facing water-cooled machine guns and howitzers that were much more efficient than they had the previous century. It wasn't the Charge of the Light Brigade, which they still got killed, but basically that. Usually you find there's a lag effect. Unfortunately, the grunts, you guys, are the ones that pay the price.

TC: Exactly.

SS: When you came back were you conflicted?

TC: I was totally messed up.

CC: That puts it mildly.

TC: I was completely gone.

SS: Was that because of drugs or just the whole trauma of the experience, or both?

TC: It was a mix of all of it. The drugs and the trauma-the whole business. Like I said it was like being in a foggy dream and then when I got back to state side it was still like a foggy dream. I wasn't back to reality yet.

SS: How long did it take you to feel okay again?

CC: He still doesn't.

SS: That's Cathy, Terry's sister in the background. Just for the record. She said he still isn't okay. That's a joke, by the way.

CC: Yes.

SS: It's said with a lot of love.

CC: [Laughs].

TC: The real turn-around was when I met my wife, the real opener for me, because she could see the darkness in me that I was caught up in. She helped me to 00:19:00gradually walk out of that darkness.

SS: Return from the "jungle" so to speak, right?

TC: Yeah, exactly.

SS: You were in the form of a dark mental jungle, right?

TC: Yep.

SS: That's a good metaphor to describe how a lot of those guys came back. They would literally dream of the jungle and the darkness and the wetness.

TC: Oh man, oh yeah. The flashbacks. Yeah, that's why I went AWOL shortly after state side.

SS: When you came back you went AWOL for a while, because you still had to serve out your time, right?

TC: Yeah. My time wasn't up yet so I was supposed to finish serving in Ft. Riley, Kansas, and after, I don't remember, it wasn't very long, six weeks or so I went AWOL. I just walked away. I went drifting and that's how I met my wife. I met her at a state park.

SS: Tell me about that a little bit.

TC: I was running from what I understood of life and she was running from it, too. We connected.

SS: You met at a state park?

TC: Yep.

SS: You remember the state park's name? You must.

TC: Sam Houston State Park, Houston, Texas.

SS: Very cool.

TC: Evening campfire. Her and her daughter were at an evening campfire. Me and my cousin, he had decided to go AWOL, too [laughs]. It always takes two or more, doesn't it?

SS: That's true.

TC: He met them first. He was out for an evening walk and he came back and said, Terry, you got to come with me. This is the greatest gal you were ever meet. It was my future wife.

SS: What was her name?

TC: Ginger. She was a card reader at the time.

SS: What was her name?

TC: Ginger. That was her nickname. Her real name is Virginia.

SS: She was a tarot card reader?

TC: No, the other kind. What do you call it? The could read just like palm reading.

SS: Oh, she had-

TC: They could read your history-

SS: She had ESP.

TC: With a pack of cards.

SS: That's a tarot card.

TC: No, a pack of reading cards.

SS: Okay.

TC: That's a whole different thing, but boy I tell you what. She had some help from somebody because-

SS: She figured you out, huh?

TC: She had him figured out. Then he took me over there and in two minutes she had me figured out and then she knew exactly where we were going from there. It turned out we did go to there from there [laughs].

SS: Do you remember the famous song by the group Rainbow called "Tarot Woman?" [Laughs].

TC: Yeah, exactly.

SS: About that same time. The early '70s. You're with Ginger and she, basically she saved you, didn't she?

TC: She did. She helped me to get turned around. Went and got a real job. Never 00:22:00changed my name. I'm still AWOL. Never changed my name, nothing. I never tried to hide. I just didn't care.

SS: You never got reprimanded or in trouble for all that?

TC: When they came looking for me four years later, they finally pulled up my number.

CC: Our dad.

SS: This is Cathy. She's going to enter the conversation now. Cathy, what's your last name?

CC: Cryer.

SS: Oh, it's Cryer, also.

CC: Never married.

SS: I just wanted to make sure for the record, for the transcription so. Tell me what you're going to say.

CC: He was missing. When he went AWOL our family went into panic mode. My dad even hired the FBI and everybody to find him. I don't know how many years, Terry, do you know? Before they found you?

TC: Four years.

CC: Four He was up here, and it was all-

TC: It was 1974.

SS: So, Ginger, you came up here with her, then?

TC: Mm-hmm.

SS: She saved you, but your family still didn't know where you were.

CC: No.

TC: Right, yeah.

SS: Cathy, you guys must have been freaked out.

CC: Yeah, I was only-let's see, I was like 11, 12, 13-around there.

SS: Because you're a little younger than Terry.

CC: Right. Ten years younger.

TC: Baby sister.

CC: So, that would tell the story of how he found-they kind of knew he was in this area, in Eugene area. He was driving around. He was looking at mechanic shops, because he thought he'd be working on cars like he did as a boy. Got turned around, I think the story went, went up a hill. They were doing construction work. He drove up there to go ask those guys, hey, where am I? By the way I have this picture of my son I'm looking for. They went, he's here. He's right up there working on the building.

TC: Yep.

CC: Dad walks in, Terry says-you tell the rest.

TC: I didn't see him. I was cleaning paintbrushes at a kitchen sink.

SS: This was in Eugene?

TC: Yeah, South Hills of Eugene. We were building apartments.

SS: Do you remember where it was?

TC: South Eugene Hills. That's all I remember [chuckles].

SS: No, because that's where I grew up. I was there in high school, actually, in 00:24:00my period of trouble.

TC: Well, you know how Willamette Street goes on and starts up the hill?

SS: Yeah.

TC: Well, it's the first drive-

SS: Way up on the hill there?

TC: As soon as you start up the hill, the first driveway to the right goes up to a bunch of high-rise apartments.

SS: Yeah, the ones above that cemetery there, right?

TC: Yeah. I built those.

SS: My first kegger party was right there [laughs].

CC: [Laughs].

TC: [Laughs].

SS: Before they built them. The year before: '73.

TC: Okay. Alright.

CC: Wow.

SS: This is for the record. I don't care because it's funny.

TC: I was washing paintbrushes at the kitchen sink. Looking out the window and I saw a shadow go by the window. I didn't even see him, but I saw the shadow and I knew that's who it was.

CC: A big shadow.

TC: I knew it was Dad. You couldn't miss this big guy.

SS: Was he a big guy?

TC: Big guy.

SS: What was his name?

TC: Lloyd J. Cryer.

SS: Lloyd J. Cryer.

TC: Yeah, and here he comes and in he walks. Yep. He said I had to come find you. I got my life turned around I wanted to get straight with you. We spent some time together.

SS: That must have been a wonderful reunion.

TC: He met my wife.

SS: That must have been a wonderful reunion, huh?

TC: It was scary.

SS: Oh, scary? Really?

TC: Yeah.

SS: So, it was wonderful, but-

TC: Well, the history with me and my dad was that he kicked me out of the house when I was 17 because I went and got my own job instead of working for him. He didn't really like that.

SS: Gotcha. I understand that.

TC: He threw a 20-dollar bill at me and said if you don't need my job you don't need my house. Go. So, go I went.

SS: It was how many years-this was 10 years later?

TC: Even then during my training at Ft. Polk I'd come home on the weekends and 00:26:00it wasn't a healthy relationship. It was pretty rough. He wouldn't even acknowledge my existence when I got my orders to go to Vietnam. Momma said it was because he was just upset because I had to go, and he wouldn't even talk to me.

SS: Well, people process fear in many different ways.

TC: Yeah, of course at that time young and dumb I didn't know. I guess that's it. He wrote me off and that's the end of that.

SS: Why is it that life gives us these old bodies, but we have the wisdom that we have now, but back then we had zero or very little? TC: Yeah, that's right. Zero brain and 100% on the body. That just is backwards [laughs].

SS: I know. It's not fair.

TC: It ain't.

CC: Here's you an answer-because of the life you went through, that's where you 00:27:00got your wisdom from.

SS: Absolutely.

TC: I guess so, yeah, that's the way it works.

CC: You gain that wisdom from your experiences.

SS: If you are the kind of person and have the belief system but also the psychological makeup to learn.

CC: Yes.

TC: Yeah.

SS: Because a lot of people go the other way.

CC: Right.

SS: They become bitter and resentful and closed and they don't learn.

CC: Right.

SS: At least in what I would call a healthy way.

CC: Exactly. I agree.

TC: Yeah.

SS: You know.

TC: Anyway, that's enough on that history.

SS: You know, that's cool.

TC: A broken relation.

SS: So, you're connected with your family but you're in Eugene still. With Ginger, right?

TC: Yep. And when they come looking after Dad's visit with us, he went back to Louisiana and then the FBI started looking for me. First, they went to their house in Louisiana. Where is he? And they wouldn't tell. Dad knew. The whole family knew where I was, but they wouldn't tell them. You get out of here. We 00:28:00don't know where he's at.

SS: Because they were afraid you'd have some big confrontation, right?

TC: Right. He called me and told me, gave me a heads up. He called my boss, because I didn't have a phone at the time. But he called my boss and gave him a heads up that they were looking for me.

SS: You were working for a construction crew, right? Or, a painting crew?

TC: Actually, it was no longer. It was the owners of the apartment. I was one of the last ones there. They hired me to do all the finalization.

SS: You did the punch lists?

TC: I did the punch lists, right?

SS: That's a pretty big complex. So that's quite a bit of work.

TC: That was a big job. I was in hog heaven. Anyway, the boss called me in and says your dad called and said the FBI's looking for you. They don't' know where you're at. They said they actually came in and talked to me and I told them you weren't here. I didn't know where you were. The last he had known I was gone to 00:29:00a dentist, but I didn't say what dentist. Which, I actually was. I had to get a tooth pulled. It was killing me. Back then you didn't fix teeth. You pulled them. Back in those days. Anyway, I got back from the dentist and that's when he told me about. He said, yeah, they're after you and they're not far behind. He said but here's what I think you should do. You don't have to. I'm going to give you this option: I'll buy you a plane ticked to Canada right now if you and your wife want to just get away. Or, you can turn yourself in. I have a lawyer. We'll hook up with my lawyer. We'll turn you in.

SS: This was about the AWOL thing, right?

TC: Uh-huh. We'll turn you in on our ground.

SS: Okay.

TC: So, I said okay. I'll talk to my wife about it, and we'll see. I called up 00:30:00my wife and said hey Babe. I may not make it home. I'm in town right now. The FBI's hot on my trial. We talked about it and she said, yeah, let's go ahead and fix it. Get it over with.

SS: Just in the short version, how did that get resolved?

TC: I had my choice when they took me up to Ft. Louis how I wanted to approach the situation and I chose what they call Article XIII, which is you write your side of the story, submit it to a board for interview, and then they decide what kind of discharge you get or prison sentence or whatever. They gave me a discharge. They reviewed my wrote up and liked it and they agreed you're okay. You're not a bad-bad guy.

SS: I bet you they had hundreds of thousands of such soldiers who were so messed up by Vietnam that they had some version of that reaction, wouldn't you say?

TC: Oh yeah. In fact, I was in-what do you call it?-a halfway house. I wasn't in jail. I was just in a fenced-in yard.

SS: You did have to kind of do some serve something?

TC: Yeah, I served probably about 4 months while they processed the whole thing, you know.

SS: Okay, so you were up in Ft. Louis, then?

TC: Yeah.

SS: I still remember going to Ft. Louis in-what's the, there's an Air Force base up there, too?

TC: Yeah, Sea-Tac.

SS: But I remember going to Ft. Louis when I was a kid and that was the first time I visited a military base. We were going to Victoria, Canada, when I was 8 or 9, and I remember going into Ft. Louis and all the tanks and there was all this stuff around.

TC: Canons and-

SS: I just remembered that when I was just a little kid and then we went up to Victoria, Canada.

TC: That's how we got it resolved. They gave me a general discharge with full benefits.

SS: Oh, that's good. So, you got all the vet stuff that you need?

TC: I could, if I chose to go there.

SS: Well, if you chose, yeah.

TC: But I could. Anyway, we got that squared away and the rest is history.

SS: Now, when did the artistic thing really start? I mean was that here or-

TC: No, no. Well, my first attempts when I got back from Vietnam I was with my wife-

SS: That's what I'm asking-you're married to a kind of a unique individual who was a mystical, creative person, right?

TC: Yep.

SS: That might have led you in a different cultural direction, is what I'm saying.

TC: And it did. Because I tried painting. I'd been drawing pictures and painting since I was a kid.

SS: Okay, so you were doing that.

TC: But all my stuff was dark, and she used to comment about, you know, 00:33:00everything's dark. Everything you paint. Everything you draw is dark. So, I kind of closed to door on it, you know?

SS: Okay.

TC: We got into rock collecting and driftwood hunting and building things with wood. I got involved with that.

SS: You had an artisan, craftsman thing that you were developing through the lens of a child or a young adolescent.

TC: Right. I used to get a lot of compliments on my pencil sketches when I was a little, bitty fella.

SS: You had the mechanical ability that obviously was more developed because of working with your father in the shop, but you had an artistic affinity and love that just wasn't quite as developed but it was right there, too?

TC: Yeah. And I went through work in the construction trade in '72.

SS: And that was up here?

TC: And started building houses. Actually, yeah it did start up here. It was in 00:34:00our first visit up here in '71 which was just odd jobs, just picking up whatever I could get. We'd live here for a while and then go back to Houston, Texas. I hooked up with her brother-in-law was a foreman for custom home construction and they'd put me to work.

SS: In Houston, or here?

TC: Houston. That was in Houston, Texas. That's where I got my initial training of building houses was with them. I put back and forth between Oregon and Houston, we were kind of like gypsies. We never stayed in one place very long.

SS: Was Ginger from up here?

TC: No, she's a San Antonian gal.

SS: She's from right down there.

TC: She's a Texas gal. It was natural for us to, if things didn't work good, 00:35:00we'd go back to Houston. Then we'd get tired of Houston and come back to Oregon. We first got introduced to Oregon in '71. The hippies in Lake Tahoe we were camping out one night and decided to visit with a bunch of hippies around a campfire and they were: what? You've never been to Oregon? Oh, you guys got to go to Oregon. You'll love Oregon. I was like okay. We ain't doing nothing else. Let's go check it out [chuckles]. Of course, we got up here and fell in love with Oregon. We probably, back and forth, till '74 trying to make it work. Trying to make it work permanent.

SS: Here? But you had to go back for work reasons or whatever, right?

TC: Yep. Finally, in '74 I had enough experience under my belt to make enough money to, well, make a good living. We were making a good living. Plus, my wife 00:36:00was, a lot of gypsy blood. She didn't like settling down for very long, anyway. She loved to travel. But, in '74 we made a much stronger go of it in Oregon and we began to spend more and more time here as opposed to elsewhere. For many years after that we would put maybe 8 months here and various places down south. We spent some time in Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, a little bit in Louisiana, but mostly Arizona. We fell in love with Arizona, too.

SS: Where at?

TC: At the right time of year.

SS: Oh, yeah.

TC: Uh-Patsy Junction. You know where that's at.

SS: Yeah, I lived in Phoenix for 25 years. I lived in Scottsdale and Temple most of the time, and in Mesa, too. I know where it is. I know what you mean by right 00:37:00time of the year, because about 4 months of the year it's just-

TC: Miserable.

SS: Yeah. You get used to it. You learn to live with it, but it wears on you.

TC: Yeah. Then most of our time in Arizona, though, we spent up at Prescott. We fell in love with Prescott area.

SS: Whiskey Row. Remember Whiskey Row?

TC: Oh yeah. That was a cool area. I did a lot of construction, picked up a lot of experience doing block work, mortaring block, brick, stuff like that.

SS: It sounds to me like is your whole thing is you're just picking up one more area of expertise, one more craft, one more trade, one more thing to put in your passel.

TC: Those early years I was very fortunate to work for contractor bosses that 00:38:00when they took on a house, customer or whatever, they took on all of it. Back then that was allowed.

SS: It wasn't like you had these big tracks where one trade would come in a go [swoosh sound] like you have the paint crew and the electrical crew and they'd all be separate, and they'd overlap.

TC: Yep, yep.

SS: But then everybody'd do their work in a certain sequence, right?

TC: Yeah.

SS: Right.

TC: I gained a wide range of experience in a short period of time and by the '80s I was already a full-blown carpenter as well as well-experienced in all the other trades.

SS: Were you a journeyman officially?

TC: Mm-hmm.

SS: So, you were in the union?

TC: No. I never joined a union. I had hang-ups about the union. Anyway, yeah, I never went with them.

SS: But, I mean, you were a journeyman carpenter, but you could also qualify as a journeyman so to speak in some of these other areas in terms of if you had to 00:39:00take attest you could test out in electrical and plumbing and what have you, right?

TC: Exactly, yep. That introduced me to my early era, early seasons with Andrews. In '81 I was hired on for seasonal help.

SS: How did that come to be where you went from construction work to being hired by the Forest Service, or did you do both still, for a while?

TC: I was a contractor on the river. I was living down in Vida, Oregon. That was in '81. I was a contractor. I was getting tired of it. I didn't like the rip-off game, so I let my license go and just went to work for people because I found out from a friend of mine that Oregon has a right to work law.

SS: They still do.

TC: You do not have to be a license contractor to earn wages. In other words, I 00:40:00could not bid, what's the other-I could estimate a job and take the job without any consequences. That's what I did. I gave up my license and just started-because it lowered my rates that I would have to charge people and everybody on the river just loved it. I didn't have a problem.

SS: So, you lived in Vida then for a while.

TC: Yep, I lived in Vida.

SS: How did you hear about this job. What led to this 35-year thing here at the Andrews?

TC: Their first real site manager was a man named Don Kniley. I met him at a home Bible study and he found out my expertise and asked me if I'd be willing to help out on my spare time, help him up here at the Andrews because he was just swamped up with these ugly house trailers. They were dilapidated, falling apart. 00:41:00They were 20 years old when the Forest Service gave them to the Andrews. They were old fire crew trailers, is what they were. I said, sure. I'll give you some time. That's where it started.

SS: Now, in 1981, if I recall my chronology right of the records I've been reviewing, basically you had the gray barn, which actually was gray back then, right?

TC: Yep.

SS: Okay. Then you had a collection of a few trailers, correct?

TC: No. In '81 the shelters were in and ready for the trailers.

SS: So, you still didn't have the trailers up here. Gotcha. You're talking about the covers right, the covers?

TC: Yep.

SS: Okay, right. Who came up with that idea for the covers?

TC: Well, I'm sure it was the Forest Service engineers. Our people said hey these trailers, they need some kind of protection. The Forest Service said, 00:42:00well, here's what we think you should do. Build these post structures with roofs over the tops of the trailers. Some of them were double-wides but they were actually single trailers, just jammed together. You have two curved roofs with a water trap right down the middle.

SS: In other words, if you did it in snow country you're going to have all kinds of problems.

TC: You're in big trouble, yeah. That's how that came about. At that time all the trailers that were going to be used up here were down at Blue River Ranger Station for the fire crews and what have you. I was helping with that in '82 when they got put up here. I got hired on to start refurbishing and putting skirts around them, doing more trim or trying to make the ceilings look a little 00:43:00better, cleaning up all the water stains and just general messes: repairing rot in the floor, changing out plumbing. A lot of that kind of stuff. Ground work. We did a lot of ground-this place was naked. I planted all these trees. Me and Don Kniley, the Site Manager. The boss used to laugh at us. Art McKee would laugh and say you guys are crazy. You're not even going to get 50% and me and Don looked at him and says we're going to pray and anoint these trees and we're going to guarantee you 80%, and we did. We got 80% survival rate in all those trees we planted.

SS: So, you won your bet with the forest expert, Art, right?

TC: Right.

SS: Of course, Art McKee, we'll talk about later became the Site Manager after Don.

TC: No, he was the Site Director.

SS: Site Director, right. Okay.

TC: The Site Manager was always a different category than the Site Director. They felt the need to have both. The Site Director had too much to do to manage also, so they wanted a Site Manager as well as a Director.

SS: Was one of those trailers, the early ones, was the office, right?

TC: Yep.

SS: There was residential and office. Was one of them a lab facility, too?

TC: Yep, lab facility.

SS: Okay, so they did have crude, but they still had those bases covered? In terms of the structures somewhere to work.

TC: Oh yeah. When they first developed the site they planned for that, you know. They had lab, office, residential, and maintenance.

SS: Before that I believe the lab and the office was down actually at the Blue River Ranger Station.

TC: Yep.

SS: Am I right on that?

TC: Oh yeah.

SS: Even though there was the gray-because the gray barn was the first structure, right?

TC: Yeah, it was the first structure. It'd been here since '48.

SS: '48, really?

TC: At that time, it was just a pole barn.

SS: A pole barn, right.

TC: And an office, shop, was the pole barn. The field office. It was a field station. That's all it was.

SS: Was that your initial place of work? Was the gray barn?

TC: Yep, I worked out of the gray barn. I'll never forget a table saw sitting on a dirt floor. That was hilarious. Good grief. But we got by. We punched out a lot of stuff right out of that dirt floor.

SS: Like you said, you make due, though, right?

TC: Oh yeah. That's part of that midnight budget. The table saw was a gift from McKenzie High School shop.

SS: After they retired it, right?

TC: Yep, they retired it and we got it for free. That's all part of what I call a midnight budget. It's either free or you go sneak it for free.

SS: I call it a shoestring budget. There's a bunch of metaphors.

TC: Right. That was how our early years started. Then in it was our first funding was for the new shop facility, because in '89, '88 when the boss approached me about taking on a permanent position.

SS: So, '88-'89 is when you transferred from the seasonal, combination with your contractor-

TC: To a permanent position.

SS: To this. Okay, gotcha. Tell me about that process.

TC: He walked me through the whole compound describing what he envisioned for a full-blown upgraded facility.

SS: Was this Don or Art?

TC: That was Art McKee. At that time Don had retired and was turning it all over to me. He points all this out and I'm saying Art McKee you are creating a Frankenstein. He said, I know it, but we need it. We got to have it. Because I was in envisioning all the mechanics that would have to take place for a full-blown-

SS: Facility.

TC: Upgraded facility, yeah. And he understood what I was saying when I said Frankenstein. Frankenstein laboratory you got bells and whistles all over the place.

SS: But he was walking around, and he said here's where he wanted the shop to go, right?

TC: Yep, shop's going to go here. We want three residential buildings here, here, and here. Future cafeteria will go here. Office, lab complex, conference hall, classroom facilities, blah, blah, blah.

SS: What were your biggest concerns looking at it from the pragmatic, mechanical/maintenance side?

TC: You know, that's part of the reason why I said Frankenstein. From the very beginning I saw maintenance coming up. This place was going to demand a lot of tender loving care. You're going to be-

SS: Even with new buildings, correct?

TC: Oh yeah. Because you're in the middle of a wilderness. Everything's gravel. At that time there was no thought at all about going with paved parking lots or blacktop driveways or anything like that. Boy, I tell you dust is a killer up here in the summertime.

SS: Back then, huh?

TC: Oh man, it was a killer. Anyway, I knew from the get-go that maintenance was 00:49:00going to get hammered no matter how high-quality you go you're still going to have to maintain that quality.

SS: Your first full-time hire was as what? What was your title?

TC: It was maintenance and you know my duties, well, one of my first jobs in a permanent position was Site Manager.

SS: That's Forest Service, you were a Forest Service person?

TC: Oh no. I was Oregon State.

SS: Oh, you were Oregon State?

TC: I was a state employee.

SS: Okay, I'm sorry. I wasn't sure. This place a split-there's been a split historically and that's why I wasn't sure where the overlaps where. So, you were always an OSU person?

TC: Yep, always were.

SS: Well, Art was too, I believe.

TC: Yeah, he was OSU side. Let's see, yeah in '89 one of my first positions to fulfill was a Site Manager, but I don't do paperwork. It didn't last long. I 00:50:00really flunked on paperwork. I had everybody in trouble after 8 months.

SS: Uh-oh.

TC: Oh yeah, and Art McKee was getting all kinds of phone calls. You got to get this guy to get this stuff up to date. There was a stack of papers on the desk that I hadn't touched. Because I had too much else to do. Because not only was I Site Manager at that time, the field crew they didn't have time to take care of facilities, so I was the janitor and the maintenance, the garbage-

SS: And the night watch.

TC: We called it the honey wagon.

SS: Night watchman.

TC: Yep, Night watchman because I lived on the facility. Yeah, I was covering a lot of bases. There was way too much fun stuff to do than to be sitting at a desk. They relieved me of my Site Manager duties and pretty much plugged me into 00:51:00maintenance and construction.

SS: Which was a much better fit.

TC: Yeah, Art said look if I plug you into a permanent position will you stay? Because we were not only seasonal workers, we were notorious gypsies.

SS: You were with your wife still, right?

TC: Oh yeah. We were well-known by everybody to leave the state and there's no telling where we were until they heard from us. It might be Texas. It might be Arizona. It might be New Mexico. No telling where we might be. But anyway, he made the offer and I said yeah, Art. I'll stay. That's where it began.

SS: So, the Allman Brothers, "Rambling Man," song is your song, right? [Laughs]

TC: Yep [laughs].

SS: Go on, sorry.

TC: Yeah, and of course they already knew I was a carpenter, so his idea, he thought the best investment he could give to Andrews was to tackle as much in-house construction as we would be allowed to get away with.

SS: In other words, do everything you could without having to hire outside contractors and go to bid and all that, right?

TC: Yep. That's what we did. The shop was built on National Science Foundation funds. The first building was built with a grant in National Science Foundation.

SS: Are you talking about the office?

TC: No, not the office complex. This shop right here.

SS: Oh, you're talking about the first building of the shop?

TC: No. The whole building.

SS: That's what I'm saying. There were two phases, right? They added onto it?

TC: Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you. That's one of the first things I told Art, you want me to build all this stuff the first thing you're going to have to do is get me a shop. I'm not working out of the gray barn no more. You cannot build what you want to build out of that dirt floor and I'm not doing it. He said, no problem. That'll be the first thing we do. We'll build a good shop. Go ahead and do it.

SS: That was finished in what year-'89 or '90, something like that?

TC: Mm-hmm. That's where we started. And in '90 we started the Quartz building residence.

SS: Okay.

TC: They felt like the first thing, well, they didn't have a whole lot of choice because the trailers were at the point where you're pumping more money into them than, anyway, they were just dying. They were just dying. You can't keep 00:54:00resurrecting something that's already in the graveyard.

SS: Right. Right. So, Quartz was the first residence building that was built?

TC: Mm-hmm. Quartz was the first residence building. And then it was Roswell. Quartz was in '90, '91 for Roswell, and '92/'93 for Rainbow.

SS: Speaking of the old trailers, do you remember who coined the term "ghetto in the meadow?"

TC: I don't know where that came from.

SS: I mean I've heard it from everybody, but nobody knows where it comes from.

TC: Nobody wants to claim it. I know it came out of Corvallis researchers, because they were the ones that had to live on this facility and do their research.

SS: So, they could refer to it kind of like, oh yeah, we have to go to the ghetto of the meadow from our city slicker, nice environment. Right, gotcha. What were some of the funny stories that happened in those trailers? I've heard different ones about the floors falling through.

TC: The classic one was, oh man, who was it? Stan? Gregory? Taking a shower one night in the tub and the tub fell through the floor, literally. It just went, it dropped about 6" with him taking a shower.

SS: Was he okay?

TC: Yeah. Fortunately, he didn't hurt nothing. Didn't even get a scratch, but yeah, they were turning into a safety issue, for sure. All the trailers were resembling that kind of trouble.

SS: You had a lot of rats, too, didn't you?

TC: No. We had some of the single-wides didn't have roof protection. They were out in the open. Well, when they got snow, the windows wouldn't open, and the doors wouldn't open. We had to shovel snow off of the roof before we could even get inside the trailer. SS: But this was before the shelters were over top, right?

TC: Well, no, what I'm saying is the single-wide residences they didn't have the shelters.

SS: Just the double-wide because you were worried about the square footage of the roofs would build up the weight.

TC: That's right.

SS: Gotcha.

TC: The single wide we just figured we could get by with keeping the roof patched, you know. That old trick, which never worked for very long.

SS: I bet you had a lot of leaks in those things.

TC: Oh yeah. They were everywhere. Constant battle.

SS: Did people ever lose their research or books, or anything get ruined? I mean, I was-

TC: No, nothing got ruined. But there were steady concerns for-because most of the leaks would run down on the inside of the exterior wall. That's where all the leaks would develop. So, naturally your concern is the framing is rotting out. It's falling apart. SS: You also got to worry about mold and health issue with people living in it because of the spores that come out of the mold and you 00:57:00can get some respiratory problems. Remember Valley Fever down in Arizona, that kind of thing? A little different, but a take on that kind of pathogens, yeah.

TC: Those kinds of issues. And photos. We took a real good set of photos of all the damage that we were battling. We weren't neglecting, but we were in a constant battle to fix all these issues and that went to Washington and that's what convinced the senate, in fact from what I heard, the one senator said, you guys need help. Big time. They just came right out and said, you need help. They got their first funding for Roswell from Congress to start eliminating more of these old trailers that we were working out of. The Roswell and Rainbow were Forest Service dollars and office building, cafeteria was Forest Service 00:58:00dollars. The conference hall was in-house construction. We wanted to preserve the old structure of the trailer roof structure. We wanted to preserve that. The height was there. They were wanting the extra height. Our thinking was to frame in between all the post-and-beam areas put in a wood floor, that kind of thing. The Forest Service said yeah that would be a good in-house construction project because it wouldn't be cost efficient for us to contract that kind of work because it would be too much labor involved, too much labor cost involved. We got to build that one in-house.

SS: You're talking about Salt Salmon, right? What's now the cover.

TC: Yeah, that's what those structures looked like. Post and beam and a roof.

SS: That's the one that you kept, because wasn't there 3 or 4 of them?

TC: That's the only one we kept.

SS: There was 3 or 4 of them, right?

TC: The office, I mean, the conference hall is the one we kept and it's all enclosed.

SS: Gotcha. Okay.

TC: Salt Salmon we kept just because I talked them into keeping it for an open-air pavilion.

SS: It's become the center piece of everything.

TC: Yeah. To me it was a perfect choice. He said, well, yeah that would work [chuckles].

SS: Now, you're in the planning of this, you were definitely involved because you had Art's ear and you had other people's ear. You were part of giving ideas for this whole process, then, as it unfolded?

TC: Yeah. Art would say, here's what we want over here. Here's what I want. I 01:00:00want a two-story unit, a-I can't remember how many people-anyway, I want it to face this direction. He would give me some general ideas of what he wanted, then I'd go to the drafting table and start drafting.

SS: So, you had a big part of the planning?

TC: Yeah, yeah. Then I would draw up what I thought he was picturing in his mind and show it to him. He'd say, yeah, like that but nah, let's not do it that way. Let's do it like this. It was a team effort. Then I would finalize the complete set of drawings. Get them approved by the Forest Service and then start construction. That's how that went for every building that we did in-house; we got the Forest Service to override the engineering. They would sign off on my 01:01:00plans and then we'd break ground. It was a good arrangement.

SS: What were the biggest concerns out here in terms of structural integrity, but also foundations. How solid is this area? I mean, it was cleared, but what's the strength of the bedrock and the soil?

TC: It's kind of like pockets. There are some places that are really, really stable and some places that are a little loose. But it's a fairly flat plateau. It's basically a gravel bar, is what it amounts to. It's flat through here where we put the site. It's an old gravel bar. There's some clay, but it's a sandy, rocky clay and it's full of rock. Good drainage.

SS: But it drains well, is what I was going to say.

TC: Yeah, it drains really well.

SS: So, your septic situation was never that big of a problem, right?

TC: No, that didn't come until much, much later in the building program. They started to become more and more rigid. The Environmental Protection Agency was created, and they had a say in everything we did. We ended up with pressurized drain fill systems. We had the big filters system that was put in to make them happy for the cafeteria building.

SS: Right.

TC: That's about it. Everything else was gravity. This newest building, that one, is gravity drain fill but the septic it has a pump that pushes it up the hill to the drain field area and then it disperses from there as gravity from there, drain fill. The footprint's pretty well-done. It's going to be 99% 01:03:00maintenance now, just take care of what you got.

SS: You're pretty much full to what you could do big-structure wise in this flat area, correct?

TC: Mm-hmm, yeah.

SS: You don't have a lot of extra space without clearing more forest, right?

TC: Right, and they're not going to go there.

SS: No, I wouldn't think so.

TC: We were awarded in the very beginning the site development plan was awarded on the, what would you say, contingent of 125 people, anyway. That's your limit. 125 overnight people. You can have more during the day, but, as far as people living on site, that's our limit.

SS: So, if you did a census, if you will, of all the potential domiciles here, including your place, that place, the different places, the max would be more or less 125.

TC: Yeah.

SS: Okay, gotcha. So, when you got here, what kind of parallel job-I know that John Moreau, for instance, was the guy who did all the technician stuff and monitoring all the climate stations and all the flumes and all that stuff. But you also took part in constructing and maintaining the field equipment, too.

TC: Oh, yeah.

SS: Tell me a little bit about what it was like in the very beginning when you got here in terms of the infrastructure in the field. You're talking about the first years of the LTER status, 1 and then 2, more money and more scientists. It was building critical mass, if you will, for a lot of different things. But what was it like when you got there in the field, out there, in terms of the structure and did you-?

TC: It was real primitive. In the early days, I mean we're talking instruments 01:05:00were nailed to the trees back in those days. Data collecting instruments were basically hung on the trees.

SS: Right.

TC: There weren't many, especially the meteorological equipment, there just weren't any real structures for them. We had a few primitive structures for the watershed program.

SS: You're talking about the little gauge houses?

TC: Mm-hmm, the little gauge houses with the water gauges and stuff. But met stations were basically non-existent.

SS: They were just, like you said, nailed to a tree.

TC: Yeah.

SS: Whatever the piece of equipment was. You look at the early pictures of Andrews you go, "That's what they had," right?

TC: Yep, that's what they had. It started pretty primitive and then gradually you get enough funding to go build a more permanent met station. We started off 01:06:00at the lower elevations and kind of moved our way, year by year, up the mountain until we finally ended up with the last one, which was at least for meteorologic, well, meteorological [observations], too, Roswell Ridge was the last one we did. That's the one we had to take in everything by helicopter up on Roswell Ridge.

SS: The first one was the little met station down here, right?

TC: Right here in the yard.

SS: When did Central Met get built? There's the house and all that stuff.

TC: Actually, UPLO (Upper Lookout) came first.

SS: UPLO came first?

TC: On the lookout. UPLO came first. Then we went to Central and then we went to Vanilla Leaf, and then we went to Vanilla Leaf Meadow. That was the last for the full-blown meteorological, and then Roswell Ridge was more recent and that was 01:07:00not just meteorological, but mostly that was put in for the antennas to pick up Wi-Fi signal, computer signal from Corvallis, which Mark (Schulze), Forest Director) says they might get funding to finalize this year. They'll make the valley connection.

SS: It seems to me, and Mark and I talked about this, and John (Moreau) and I, we did an interview, we traveled, we went over there in the shop area and we talked about equipment and stuff and then we spent the whole day going up around and he told me about the problems of basically making this place connected.

TC: Yeah.

SS: I go, well, why don't you just put a hardline. Then he told me about all the rules about having to run a line from (Highway) 126, and all the right-of-ways and the problems you'd have, and you'd have to like offer it to everybody that potentially could be in that area and it's so expensive.

TC: And the Forest Service is concerned on the security side of it.

SS: So, tapping into the lines, right?

TC: Yeah. There's that issue, too. It's a multi-million-dollar problem to resolve, and so they're choosing to go Wi-Fi aerial signal to Corvallis.

SS: I think that makes sense. I think Mark, but also John, told me the concerns where that in the winter-time; if you had technical issue and there's tons of snow, fixing it could be intense or very difficult, especially because you're going to be up on top of some ridge, not on the road, you have to climb up to it. It can be real difficult.

TC: Yeah, it's a challenge. Everything that gets done up here is a challenge [laughs].

SS: Now, I'll segue out of the early phase we're talking about. You talked about Stan [Gregory] and the thing falling through the floor. Are there any other anecdotes or interesting stories, whether it's funny or even serious that you remember from those early days that will capture something, the essence of the place or a particular incident?

TC: Yeah, well, there's a lot of stuff like that was happening in "ghetto in the meadow." Like our honey wagon, that was a whole trip in itself. Back in those days at least for us there was no such thing as garbage liners. Everything went in the garbage can, and then it went to the honey wagon and we would take it to the dump once a week.

SS: It would be seriously biological by the time it'd been there a week, right?

TC: We're talking maggot-level.

SS: That's what I mean [laughs]. Poltergeist level, right [laughs].

TC: [Laughs] When you took the lid off the garbage can you had a bat in the other hand, because there's no telling what was going to be in there. That was a nasty era. That was our job, that was my job.

SS: You had to haul all that way where to, like Vida or Blue River.

TC: Yeah, McKenzie Dump transfer site. Then of course we had to pull it all out of the honey wagon into the dumpster, bring it back to Andrews and get it set up for the next load. Then one era when we did go to the can-liners, the system worked good as long as people remembered to do that. The straw that broke the camel's back on that setup [laughs] was one week we were going through, me and a 01:11:00couple other helpers, were going through picking up all the cans. One had gotten filled with no liner, so I said, no we're not going to deal with this. We're not going to empty the can, we're just going to throw the can and everything away. It's just too nasty. This thing was really gross. I went to the boss and said we're done. I'm not doing this no more. I don't have time to deal with other people's criminal negligence. He said, "I agree Terry. I believe you. Okay what are we going to do?" [So, I said,} "Let's get, they have these green cans, I don't know if you ever saw them or not, Art, but they have these green cans, they call them dumpsters and they're not very expensive and we can buy into that 01:12:00program for $40 a month."

SS: You're talking about plastic or composition made, right? Not metal ones?

TC: Well, the garbage truck comes up and empties the can. You don't have to go to the dump no more. All you have to do is put your garbage in that big can. Now, that's simple. Then of course it was right out front by basically where it's at right now without a garbage enclosure. That was one of the-anyway, "Terry, we got to hide this." That was Fred Swanson. I hate to mention any names, but just some way to make that a little more attractive. Well, yeah, we can put a privacy fence around it, dress it up, so it won't look so terrible. We did that. It had its moments of hilarity, but mostly it was just a nightmare. I 01:13:00was glad to see them at least consent to the expense of making a better refuse.

SS: So, in the late '80s and early '90s was when really over a period of 4 to 5 years was when this place went from the ghetto in the meadow to most of what you see here today, correct?

TC: That was the problem on my side. I just did not have the time to deal with all these side issues, like the honey wagon, because of the construction taking place at the same time, in-house construction. There was a lot of it going on. It was not just the facility itself being built. We built all the cabins at gypsy camp at the same time right in the parking lot in front of Roswell while we were building Roswell building.

SS: Wasn't there also a cabin up in Mack Creek?

TC: Yeah. And emergency cabins.

SS: Like shelters and stuff. Wasn't there a snow site, too, way up high?

TC: Yep, snow site and WIldcat. We had a site up at Wildcat Mountain [and Research Natural Area]. I'm trying to think of some of the other. Anyway, all the fill stations were being built too, while-

SS: Was there also a site at Hagan Block?

TC: Yeah, but it never-Hagan Block never had a full-blown construction kind of set up.

SS: Okay.

TC: It was mostly just, in fact, it still is-it's just primitive shelters with data collectors. Real basic.

SS: Anyway, you were about ready to tell me something and I kind of segued into Hagan Block.

TC: Right, I was just going to make the comment that a lot of construction all over the Andrews Forest was taking place by me and my crew while were building 01:15:00the buildings, the residences.

SS: Did you, well, I know you didn't always, but did you at times have enough help and assistance to be able to do this work?

TC: Oh yeah, during that work program we were allowed to hire, anyway, we hired local people. The largest crew I ever ran was 6 besides me, so there was 7 of us on the job.

SS: So, these were people from McKenzie, Blue River area?

TC: Yep.

SS: And this was of course when the beginning of the logging boom collapsed.

TC: Yep.

SS: There were a lot of people looking for work, yeah?

TC: Yeah, they came crawling out of the woodwork.

SS: Were you able to find qualified people easily?

TC: No.

SS: Was that hard?

TC: I wasn't scared of hiring greenhorns. I could teach, and they could pick up 01:16:00things pretty quickly.

SS: As long as they were reliable and honest about whatever, right?

TC: Yeah, that was the key factor. Get here on time. Keep yourself sober. You can smoke all you want to after work. That wasn't easy, but we got by. They were good men. They were all local, actually kids most of the time. They were good kids. They all had their problems, but they were good on the job for the most part. I got wind of them. I should've been suspicious, but I wasn't. They were taking their lunch breaks down at the creek and then I found out through the grapevine a little later that their lunchbreaks consisted of whiskey and marijuana.

CC: [Laughs].

SS: I'm shocked [laughs].

TC: I didn't have a clue. When I heard about that I just had a little chat with 01:17:00them. I said I'm not going to fuss at you guys. You're doing good work, you know. You're not messing nothing up and you're not messing yourself up on the job, so as long as it's not interfering with your work I'm not going to clip you. But just be warned if the bosses catch you.

SS: They will clip you.

TC: You'll be gone. Yeah, you'll be gone. Art had no toleration for any of that kind of activity on the job. I mean, he's never been opposed to any of that stuff just not on the job.

SS: Realistically for insurance reasons alone and liability you can't have people high and drinking especially around power tools and stuff [laughs].

TC: Exactly.

SS: I had my crazy days, but I even knew better than that.

TC: They curtailed it. It seemed like their work effort improved a little after that. Yeah, we went through lots of different people working up here for us.

SS: Did part of the connections you had stem from when you were a contractor down in Vida? Did you know enough people where you knew how to ask around and find or just advertise?

TC: No, we just advertised, word of mouth mostly. We're looking for people that's wanting to work.

SS: Who's the best assistant you ever had? If you want to even mention anybody? Somebody who was here for a long-?

TC: I would say the one I got right now, the one that's here now, but he's only been here for a year.

SS: Are you talking about Doug?

TC: Yeah, besides Doug who's only been here a year, the best one I had was the previous one, Tom [another helper in the maintenance/construction crew]. He was just an amazing man. He was a professional, certified fabricator for most of the 01:19:00years of his life, but he was also a sales rep also for a big outfit in Junction City for steel fabrication. He worked for an outfit that manufactured metal components for all kinds of warehouses, mills, you know they had milling machines and they were into that kind of thing. He was one of their sales rep for a long time, too. But the guy, he's just an excellent mechanic. You could tell him half a sentence and he knew where to take it from there. That's the way he was. A hard worker. He wasn't a high-energy level. Those kinds of people make 01:20:00me nervous anyway, because that's the way I used to be. I don't need no more high energy levels than what I got. He was just a good, strong, steady-in fact, he was good at pacing me, slow yourself down a little bit so we can finish the day. He was a really good hand. Good sense of humor. Was a little rough around the edges when it came to picking on people [laughs]. He liked to needle people, get 'em fired up and then walk away [laughs].

SS: He would throw a grenade out there and then leave.

TC: Exactly [laughs].

SS: So, when the whole big construction thing was going on over that few-year 01:21:00period of time and congress got involved, I think Mark Hatfield and congressman, Les AuCoin, some of the big names that had a lot to do with the appropriations that made the big construction possible. That was happening, and you guys also had your other funds to do other things. But what was that period like, the five years where it was really going on where this campus was being built, essentially? You want to describe a little bit about that? Draw a thumbnail sketch of that?

TC: Boy it was a heyday, that's for sure. Like I said before there was a lot going on at one time. I wasn't just the facility it was everything, you know? The research as well as-

SS: It was exploding at the same time, right? In terms of the numbers of people, the funding, the levels of the science, everything.

TC: The science community was growing. The interest, the study interest was growing and branching out more and more. It was just a hectic-in fact, the crew 01:22:00used to laugh at me. It wasn't unusual, I'd be standing out in the middle of the parking lot in front of the shop and all of a sudden, you'd just get swamped by about 10 people and every one of them was having an emergency and needed something done right now. The crew would just crack up and walk away-alright, Cryer, we'll see you after work.

SS: Because they knew you had something-

TC: Yeah, yeah. Oh, boy. Because we were still maintenance while we're doing all this construction everywhere.

SS: But you recognized early on, and I'm sure that was made clear when you were hired, and everything evolved from that point, where ultimately the primary purpose is to make sure the science can continue?

TC: Oh yeah.

SS: Regardless of residences and all that, ultimately the science had to remain 01:23:00continuous because the record stream is everything in a long-term research site.

TC: Yep. That was made clear to me from the very get-go. In fact, we had to have a name for the shop before we could get it funded by the National Science Foundation. We chose RSB: Research Support Building. That's the actual, architectural name for the shop and that's been our motto from the get-go, is research support. They come first. Yeah that's always been high priority for us. Because basically everything maintenance does is to support the research community anyway.

SS: Right.

TC: So, when they come to me needing something for their fieldwork or the field research, they come to me because they know I have the expertise, I'm good at 01:24:00designing and building and so they: we're thinking about this? Would this work? Do you have anything in the boneyard [collection of left over stuff] that we could make do for this particular project? Yeah, let's go take a look, you know? Yeah, we could do that. Let's go draw it out on paper. I think if we do this and this, this will work better. That kind of thing for the researchers. And we still do. We're always brainstorming with them for even maintenance for the research stations. We help them out as much as they need.

SS: When you got here what was your understanding of science and the earth sciences and what was your idea about scientists and those intellectuals and university people and how has that evolved from when you first got here until 01:25:00now? I'm sure that you've learned a lot.

TC: Yeah, I have. But I think a lot of that I already understood. The community I grew up in, the church I grew up in, my dad-they were all conscientious caretakers of what God has given us, and, as soon as I got here, I admired the efforts that were being made.

SS: You understood the stewardship ethic?

TC: Yeah, the stewardship. The first thing that hit my mind is God told Adam this is your job to dress and keep the garden and that's our job. Every individual, that's our basic job is to take care of what we live in and not abuse it. Don't tear it up. Don't ruin it for the next people. We're supposed to take care of it. Look for problems before they get big and not-yeah, I admire 01:26:00this community from the first time I met them. Because I thought, yes, you guys are on the right track.

SS: They're trying to do good.

TC: They're trying to do good, that's right. It may not always work, but boy they're A-effort.

SS: What do you remember about Jerry Franklin?

TC: Oh my God. What a character [laughs]. Him and his bonfire side chats.

SS: Here or out in the field?

TC: That was out, it was always called Gypsy Camp. We're not supposed to call it that anymore.

SS: Now they say formerly called gypsy.

TC: Yeah, formerly Gypsy Camp.

SS: The political police are everywhere, right?

TC: They had a pit fire there that could handle Jerry Franklin's bonfires. When he had a campfire, it was a big one. That's the way he used to love to do field 01:27:00teaching is get all the kids around the fire and start talking and pick their brain and debate and talk it out. Jerry Franklin, he's one of those, yeah, and he can really throw it out there, boy.

SS: He's a brilliant man.

TC: He's a dynamic personality, yeah.

SS: He just retired at 81 years old from being a professor at University of Washington.

TC: I know. Yep.

SS: I interviewed him last year, and you could tell he was really going to miss it.

TC: Oh yeah, I know. He was down here for his last class about 2 months ago. I got to spend not much time with him but quite a bit of time with his wife. He had his wife here with him, and that was really enjoyable. Very rewarding. 01:28:00Beautiful lady. I hate to see old Jerry give it up, but oh well, it's time to pass the hat.

SS: Because when you first got here he was kind of the big personality and name and leader of the team both from the Forest Service side but also the Andrews in general and all of his "new forestry" stuff and all the things he was working on, which he became even more famous for after he left the Andrews, or right as he was leaving the Andrews and Oregon State.

TC: He was like the big godfather. Fred Swanson would be more like the understudy.

SS: The lieutenant.

TC: For Jerry, yeah.

SS: He's-Fred, I think Fred, because he stayed in Corvallis I think he saw it as much of his mission to shepherd the legacy, legacies-plural-of the Andrews in 01:29:00many different areas, which is one reason I got involved with the history work as well as the archival thing and we're doing the oral history thing here today. What are some of the other people from, maybe even from the early days that were still there, like Ross Mersereau and any of the-

TC: I barely got to know Ross. He wasn't around that much at that time when I started work up here.

SS: Oh really?

TC: Most of the time I was too busy to make contact with him very much.

SS: Okay.

TC: It was fun. He's quite a character. Always made me think of a cowboy, an old cowboy.

SS: You knew his war story, didn't you?

TC: Yeah.

SS: Did you ever hear about Korea. Real rugged man. He got lost alone or something, if I recall right?

TC: Yep. John knew him really well, John Moreau They were good friends. I never really got that close to him. I was too busy, I guess. That was one. Most of the ones I connected with were some of the young professors at that time, like Mark Harmon, Stan Gregory, string team when they were in their full-blown stream study on Lookout Creek, which had pretty much closed up now, moved on to other studies, but back then it was Rainbow Left was their designated unit for many years. They did their studies out of that.

SS: When Stan comes up here with his wife I think he still stays at Rainbow. It's like his place.

TC: Oh yeah. In fact, before they even moved in after we laid the floor, it was 01:31:00funny, I mean I wasn't being a stickler about it, I just told him you know the best way-he wanted to know-the best way to make this floor last forever is don't give it one or two coats of wax, give it 7 because that's always finisher's magic number. 7 thin coats is better than 2 heavy coats every time. He did. He stayed up all night long and gave it 7 thin coats every hour.

SS: Of what, like urethane?

TC: Just a floor wax, a high-grade commercial wax. That floor stayed gorgeous for years. He did a beautiful job, and this is a professor doing this. I was amazed. That was Stan Gregory, boy I'll tell you he's a very humorous man, too.

SS: I hear he's one of the best story tellers.

TC: Oh yeah. It's always going to have a funny twist to it.

SS: He's got that sense of humor and the little quip which throws in a little bing.

TC: Yeah.

SS: Now Mark Harmon's study, I believe he started to conceptualize it in '83, '84 [it was 1985] he was this grad student of Jerry Franklin's and then he hatched the 200-year log decomposition study [Franklin hatched it, but Harmon added a great deal in the execution]. Did you have something to do with helping him construct the infrastructure for that or was that all him?

TC: Yeah, I was involved with him in setting up the table saw, setting up jigs for cutting all the tinker toys, that's what we called them. I spent a lot of the early '80s, I spent a lot of time helping him with the calipers and 01:33:00instruments for measuring and weighing before they went to the drying oven and after they came out of the drying oven for the archive that was a big process. We're talking hundreds and hundreds of little wooden blocks cut out of tree cookies.

SS: Right, right.

TC: That stuff. Part of the log decomp [decomposition] program is somebody's got to do it.

SS: Did you use a lot of the extra stuff from him to start doing artistic thing or was that completely separate wood? You've built all this furniture here we're looking at, right?

TC: Yeah.

SS: Did you start getting creative with some of his old cookies or things he wasn't using?

TC: I started getting interested in doing artistic levels of cookies from his program, for sure.

SS: That's what I'm asking. I figured you said, well-because you get to look at 01:34:00all the beautiful rings and the different shapes of wood.

TC: That's what I'm looking at is he's cutting them all into these little bitty blocks and I'm looking at the whole cookie and said, man, these things are too pretty to be done at, so I started making my own cookies and making plaques or whatever. But I've always been interested in my artistic side. My wife and I used to go driftwood hunting and I don't mean sea shore, I mean hiking up creeks, hiking up and down creeks. You find beautiful pieces of driftwood in all sorts of patterns, shapes, sizes.

SS: You're talking about even up in the mountains here, not on the coast, right?

TC: Yeah. I mean we just called it driftwood. It's a kind of wood that washes down a creek or gets hung up in a log jam and it gets washed by mother nature 01:35:00for years.

SS: And it gets polished.

TC: Without getting rotten and they just end up being beautiful pieces of artwork. Like this furniture I built, that's what I look for. I look for natural things that has character and then take it from there and try to leave it as natural as I can. Old hippie. Hippies love that kind of thing.

SS: Oh, I know, but it's a good thing.

TC: Yeah, it is. Leave it as natural as you can, you know? And functional.

SS: I'd rather see this kind of furniture than the IKEA living room any day. Nothing against IKEA, just a cultural reference for the sake of the record.

TC: That's right [laughs].

SS: I've never even been into an IKEA store. I guess I've just heard it on TV too much.

TC: Exactly.

SS: By the way, an aside completely, I was going to ask you earlier since you said most of your family's from Houston, right?

TC: Relatives, yeah.

SS: I bet you they were pretty excited about the Astros winning the World Series?

TC: Oh yeah.

SS: Wasn't that great? Did you see that?

TC: Oh yeah. Well I first heard it from her-my sister-she was in here; the Astros took it! They got it! The World Series?

SS: Hard to believe, huh Cathy?

CC: Yes. The first time ever.

SS: I know, from the Colt 45s in 1962. That was their first name, you know? The Houston Colt 45s.

CC: They needed it after that Hurricane Harvey, you know? Nothing like pumping a city back up.

SS: I remember I watched the weather channel a lot because I think it's one of the great stations that we got. They're information, they're funny, but really, they save lives. They were saying, my God, this hurricane just blew up and they said we are afraid because this thing is going to go straight here, and it has 01:37:00so much moisture. It wasn't a heavy wind hurricane, well, it was heavy, but they were worried about it just stalling and dumping, and that's exactly what happened.

TC: Exactly what it did.

CC: It was devastating.

TC: The wind wasn't nothing compared to what the water did.

SS: Well, if you look historically at tropical storms and hurricanes, whether it's in the Pacific or in the Atlantic Basin or even in the Indian Ocean, it's usually the water that does the most damage and kills the most people because people always focus on the category level-oh my God it's a category 5 the winds, which is terrible. But it's usually the water.

TC: Right.

SS: But anyway, that was a feel-good story for all of the folks down there, huh?

TC: Oh yeah. That pumped them up.

SS: There's no team in New Orleans except football and basketball now.

TC: Right.

SS: I bet you a lot of people in your part of the world gravitate toward the 01:38:00Houston teams, right?

TC: Oh, absolutely. Oh yeah.

SS: The Rockets, the Astros, and now the Texans in football and I think they even got a, they don't have a hockey team anymore. I don't think so.

TC: No, I don't think so.

SS: I was rooting for Houston, Cathy.

CC: Yay.

SS: Usually I root for the West Coast teams, but I liked the story about uplifting a community, because sports, sometimes it matters so much because it doesn't matter, and it brings communities together and rescues their emotions, even if it's for a short period of time. I thought they really deserved it. I really liked their team. Their best player is 5'6": José Altuve. I mean, he's this little guy who can hit the ball a mile. It's pretty amazing.

TC: It was. It was an amazing story.

SS: Anyway, we're back. You're understanding it's always for the sake of the 01:39:00science in terms of to support the science.

TC: Yep.

SS: Now, the campus is constructed - the one we see here. And we've still seen a couple of additions to that. How did the culture from what you saw-because you're out here in your maintaining and you're interfacing with all those-how would you characterize the culture of the Andrews changing and transitioning as it went from a bunch of ramshackle trailers and the gray barn to a pretty sophisticated research facility and residential community, if you will? How do you remember seeing the culture of the place change from your perspective?

TC: Wow. I don't really see it.

SS: Really?

CC: Yeah, it happened so subtle, little by little.

TC: The same professional attitude that was here in ghetto in the meadow is still here. They've always had a high level of professional endeavor.

SS: Expectations and standards, right?

TC: Yeah.

SS: I mean more generally the culture of the place. I mean when you get a sophisticated facility like this and you're able to host students and groups and seminars-

TC: No, no, we're still blue collar. I don't think we'll ever go white collar.

SS: That's not what I meant.

TC: Oh.

SS: I was just trying to say-and perhaps it's the kind of question that you can only answer maybe from like the perspective you're are right now, where you're retiring and you're leaving, and you can only look back through the lens of 35 years.

TC: Right. Well, I see the young blood coming in and I'm impressed. There's been talk on the radio and TV, you know, the old adults are really concerned about the new adults. The young adults coming into the workforce where they have no 01:41:00desire whatsoever to get callouses on their hands, and all that kind of hoopla. It's not really true. What I've seen, and sure there's some out there, yeah. They don't want to walk the woods. The want to stay on the keyboard. Well, that's fine. But, from where I've seen these young people they are not afraid to roll up their sleeves and get the job done. Most of them I've seen enjoy it. It's been a great bunch of kids. These new kids coming in, at least here, no complaint, even the partiers are low-key. They're just young professionals. They party but they don't get crazy party and I've been really impressed with the young people. I feel good about it. I feel good about the days ahead for this place, because they seem to have strong hearts for what they believe in and 01:42:00they're ready to do it.

SS: Most people go into academic endeavors in science and history, generally they're doing it because they have some interest in doing something better or learning something important. That's a generalization, but I think you could say there is a core there. They have an ethic and a perspective on the world which has a degree of altruism and love for something built into their environmental and spiritual constructs, if you will.

TC: I see hippie-ism is still here and I think it's going to get stronger. I don't think the hippie era will ever go away. In fact, the younger generation, they will take it a step further. They will. They're going to fight. They're 01:43:00going to fight for, just like the hippies did in the '60s and '70s.

SS: The counter-cultural revolution meant a lot more than just what we often refer to as hippies.

TC: Yes, that's right.

SS: Which is a specific aesthetic and look.

TC: I'm using that term kind of loosely, but you know what I mean.

SS: No, I understand. Even one of my favorite comedians, Bill Maher, says the first hippie was Jesus [laughs].

TC: Exactly, yeah.

SS: You know what I'm saying.

TC: Exactly.

SS: Counter-cultural. Pharisees get out of the temple [laughs]. The money changers get out of the temple man. Start walking your talk. I mean really, it's-I always use it to refer to positively progressive counter-cultural ideas and practices.

TC: Right.

SS: In terms of hippie-ism, or whatever you want to call it. There's always been people like that, it just, we crystallize it in our mind because there's a certain look to the hippies. I remember, Terry, when I was 10 or 9, my parents 01:44:00and I, we went to San Francisco during the Summer of Love in '67. The famous one at Haight-Ashbury and all the Monterey Pop Festivals that year down south and I was this little straight-laced little Christian kid and my sister, and I counted hippies the whole time, like they were an invasive species [laughs].

TC: Right [laughs].

SS: We went down to Haight-Ashbury and we were all counting them all and going look at all these weird people because back in '67, they were developing the iconography of what hippies were supposed to look like. And we were in San Francisco. I never understood the cultural essence behind that really until many years later until I went through my own crazy era, which I don't call my hippie era because I was a troubled kid who was trying to escape from some pain I went 01:45:00through. I became my own version of hippie, I describe it as bohemian, really in the '80s and '90s as I developed as an adult. That was my hippie years and they're kind of continuing in a certain way now. Why would I have become a historian? [laughs].

TC: Right.

SS: That's not a linear, straight-line thing that Mom and Dad say you need to grow up to be a history professor and go out and try to find a job. Good luck on that, son. Anyway, so you feel good about the future, though, of the new generation?

TC: I really do, yeah. I think they're going to do quite well. I think they're going to voice their concerns real well.

SS: Now, what was the first artistic statement you made here at the Andrews. You're consumed with the practical, survival things of keeping this place going, 01:46:00both in the field and down here, what's the first artistic thing you did that you're proud of that's maybe still here?

TC: Well, that would be some of the apartment-well, like in Quartz I threw in a few extra features, like the arches. I love those Spanish arches over the kitchen, dining room, some of the bathrooms I even put in little Spanish arches. Little accent features like that. I just, I can't help it. I got to do something like that. Some of the wood work was handcrafted.

SS: You used wood from out here in the field, right?

TC: Some of it, yeah.

SS: Or did you have to bring hardwood from somewhere else, sometimes right?

TC: Some of it was milled. But, yeah, a lot at that time, a lot of it was just coming out of town, out of the lumber yard. We would mold-we got into molding 01:47:00our own designs of trim, interior trim, like the baseboards and door trim, cabinet trim, all your cabinet edges and anyway-we did a lot of handcrafting, especially in Roswell and Rainbow. We bought into the cheapo, they call them knockdown cabinets. They're like cabinet kits. They come in a box and you put them together.

SS: Right, yeah, I've done that before.

TC: That's what we did in the Quartz building and I decided I didn't want to do that. So, when we got to Roswell and Rainbow we started a lot of them were hand-built instead of knockdowns, store-bought. Tilework, I shifted from FORMICA to countertop tile just for the artistic aesthetics of it.

SS: It would last longer, too, right? If it was done well.

TC: I was disappointed when I came in one day and somebody had sat a frying pan that must have been too hot right on top of the-

SS: Formica.

TC: Formica, right, next to the range.

SS: It'll burn it, yeah.

TC: It not only burned it, it blistered like that big an area.

SS: That's hard to do that on real tile, though. You can put-

TC: That's right.

SS: Pretty hot dang stuff on it.

TC: It can take a lot of abuse, yeah. So, we got into that kind of work. I hung some of the paintings I did in the old cafeteria trailer. There was nothing. Just blank walls. Nobody was taking any interest in making the dining area more friendly, more warm.

SS: Less utilitarian, right?

TC: Yeah, well, one of our caterers commented on it one day. In fact, she volunteered, she said Terry I'd like to make some drapes for the windows. I want to make some-at least put drapes on the windows to give it a warmer atmosphere in here. Knock yourself out, babe. That'd be wonderful. I'd love to have somebody do that. In the meantime, I got to thinking, "Okay. Let's do some paintings, just some quick paintings and hang them up in the dining area, in the hallway, in the bathroom, in the bedroom, because at that time-"

SS: That's when you started doing your own paintings, at least in terms of how you were envisioning them as being part of the aesthetic of the property, right?

TC: Yeah. That's where it started was in that old cafeteria building, cafeteria trailer.

SS: So, it was for a trailer at first, then?

TC: I created a bunch of them and hung them in there.

SS: The trailer at first though, right.

TC: Yeah, it was just the trailer at first. Yeah. One conference they had it was 01:50:00on a weekend and Art McKee was up here with the conference and they were having their first lunch. I think it was lunch. The first meal was lunch, catered. This one lady took one look at the paintings of the wall and ran outside blubbering, crying. Just broke down in tears. Art said he ran out. I heard about this later. He said he ran out and confronted her: what's wrong? Can I help. She said, oh, no I was just-I saw that painting of the tigers and I had painted the tiger family from a postcard. I just thought it was a tremendous picture. A beautiful view. Well, her husband had photographed those tigers in India and had died in a 01:51:00hunting accident over there.

SS: So, you painted the painting from the photograph that her husband took?

TC: Who knew! Yes.

SS: My first response when you said she cried when she saw your art, I was going to make a joke about it. Because I was like okay. But now I understand that's really-talk about coincidence.

TC: That was amazing that somebody-I mean of all the pictures I picked out to do a painting of, it had to be that one. Then she was okay. She said, no, no. It brought back memories, that's all.

SS: I guess. That's one of those pinch-me moments where you just go-

TC: Yeah, yeah. What is this?

SS: There are forces that I don't understand, right?

TC: Exactly. Yeah that was very unusual, very strange. Back to my artwork on the 01:52:00facility that ties in with the facility, one of the other features is the mural on the back wall of the stage.

SS: I was going to ask you about that, yeah.

TC: That was a fly-by-night backdrop for the stage for the Andrews 50th celebration in '98.

SS: That was 1998, right.

TC: I had the whole thing set up. It was a lot bigger than it is now. We had to cut it down to make it fit that back wall.

SS: So, you actually did it over here?

TC: I did it in the truck bay. I had it all set up. I was painting after hours. I didn't want to do it on company time, and it was 2:00 in the morning Art McKee came over and he says you're going to go get some sleep, right? You're going to go take a break and go get some sleep before you finish this? I said, yeah Art 01:53:00I'm almost to a point where I can stop with it. But after he left I was on a roll. I didn't want to stop. I couldn't stop. So, I just stayed with it. At 6:00 I was done with it. I put like 8 hours, no it'd be more like 12 hours into that painting and it was a great hit. Perfect stage drop. We were trying to hide the stage was in front of the end of Rainbow Building out beyond the pavilion. We were trying to hide that old ugly wall of the Rainbow Building.

SS: Right.

TC: It served the purpose for that. Though I didn't have no place to store it, so I was just going to haul it to the burn pile. Art McKee says, he says, no you're not. I said, well Art where are we going to put it. He said well let me think about it. Take it to the truck bay for now. He says let's do this: you 01:54:00think you can cut it down and still make it look good for the stage backdrop. How about if we do that? I said yeah that would look pretty cool. We could use some of our cedar boards, Andrews cedar, for the edging on each side to kind of tie in the wood theme, you know, the forest theme with natural cedar that looked similar to logs, but anyway-yeah, we'll do that. Then one day about a month later he comes and gets me and says Terry you got to come look at this. He drags me out to the conference hall, turns all the lights off, hits the stage lights, the kind that come on gradually. That thing just exploded. It was like it came alive.

SS: So, he put it in there?

TC: He did that, yeah. He did that.

SS: I bet that surprised the heck out of him.

TC: It blew my mind. I said, Art all I can say is that's a happy accident [laughs].

SS: That was a kind of a happenstance.

TC: That was just a real quick thing. I used regular house painting brushes. I wasn't even using art brushes, just some-

SS: Well, that's on a big scale, too.

TC: I wasn't trying for anything special other than something to hide an ugly building.

SS: Did you ever touch it up after it went up, or that's the original?

TC: No, I trimmed it down to fit that wall and you're looking at it the way it came out of the truck bay.

SS: And how did you get-did you have a photograph, or did you just imagine the forest?

TC: I had a photograph that Al Levno had taken. It's someplace on Lookout Creek and he won't tell nobody where it is.

SS: Okay.

TC: He calls it his secret place.

SS: So, it is a place, okay.

TC: Yes. It's on Lookout Creek somewhere.

SS: Did you ever have a name for that, or no?

TC: No. I mean you know it wasn't anything particular. I never named-just happy accident would be a good name for it.

SS: Happy accident.

TC: Sometimes the artist gets a happy accident.

SS: Well, a lot of the wonderful things in life are serendipitous.

TC: Exactly.

SS: Interesting in how they wind their way to actually happening.

TC: Like the Astros.

SS: Well, yeah. You know.

TC: Who would have known?

SS: I know, who would have guessed. Okay, keep going.

TC: That's the story on that guy.

SS: You did-there's the sculpture out front of the main building, correct?

TC: Out front of the main building?

SS: The office-isn't there a sculpture that you did?

TC: You talking about the monument?

SS: Yeah.

TC: In front of the flag pole?

SS: I think so, yeah.

TC: Oh yeah. Well, that was a joint effort. Art wanted to set up that old plaque, that bronze plaque, put it out by the-what is that anyway? Biosphere Research Program?

SS: Well, yeah, it became International Biosphere site. There's been several designations.

TC: So, we got awarded with that big bronze plaque and he wanted it mounted on something, so I said, well, I'll see what I can do. I found, I'm going to town one day. On the side of road 15 down towards the highway, a big section of rock had slid off a cliff. Big section of rock. I thought, man, that would be perfect, but how in the world could we get it to the Andrews?

SS: Because we're talking a couple tons, right?

TC: Oh yeah, because what you're seeing is only 2/3 of the total rock, you know? There's at least 1/3 down in the ground, because we sunk it just to bed it good. I call up, Wild Bill. That was his name. Blue River Ranger Station, Wild Bill was a road maintenance crew, heavy equipment operator. I'm talking to him about it and he says you know what I bet we got just the thing that'll-we won't be able to carry it, but I bet we can drag it, or push it. They had one of these front-end loaders that twist in the middle kind of tractor.

SS: So, you pushed it all the way up the-

TC: He pushed it from about 1 mile down the road, Road 15. That was okay until he got to the bridge and he started pushing it across the bridge and the whole 01:59:00bridge was just vibrating like somebody with coffee jitters [laughs]. We're talking 5 tons of rock and we're raising a cloud of dust. It's the middle of summer and he's leaving a streak on the blacktop about 8' across of rock dust. By the time he got it to where I wanted to put it in the ground it was completely flat on the face, or what we decided to call the face.

SS: Because you scraped it all off.

TC: He had completely polished it. By the time it got to Andrews it was perfect. It couldn't have been more perfect. The only thing Art said, he says, Terry that is porous rock, it's only going to last a couple of years. You went to all that trouble for a 2-year monument. I said, Art, that thing is so big it'll be 02:00:00splitting for 100 years before it fails. I was right. It's still hanging in there. But I mean technically he's right. It's a real porous clay rock, so every winter you get the freeze thaw and it splits.

SS: You get some fracture cracks and stuff.

TC: Yeah fracture cracks and another piece flakes off. In 100 years, it'll be worthless for a plaque. But who cares, in 100 years put in a new rock. That's the story on that baby.

SS: That's pretty interesting.

TC: That was hilarious watching Wild Bill. The bucket on that tractor was huge. Those big belly bin front-end loaders. They're big units anyway. I'm going to say that was a 4-yard bucket on that thing. Big, huge bucket. He had no trouble pushing it. Once he had it locked, it wasn't going to slip anywhere. But that bridge was a little scary. The engineers weren't real happy about that.

SS: That you did that. But somebody told somebody, right?

TC: Well, one of them. There was no hiding it. There's a trail all the way to our gravel driveway, you know? [Laughs] Yeah, one of the engineers he just said Terry, he shook his head, you're just lucky that thing did not rupture that bridge because a rock that heavy could have ruptured it. May not have collapsed it, but it could have-

SS: Somebody would have been-

TC: What do they call it? Structural integrity would have been-

SS: Compromised.

TC: Yep.

SS: Well, lucky for all of you guys or you would have ended up in a little bit of trouble there.

TC: Oh yeah.

SS: Well, especially considering that road is really important to getting into the back country, not just the Andrews.

TC: Yeah, it's the main vein.

SS: I know. You can go all the way over to Santiam by going-

TC: That's right.

SS: Wow. That's a great story, man. That's really something else. That's how the 02:02:00rock got up there. It was pushed like, what, two miles or something?

TC: Yeah. Close to it.

SS: How long did it take?

TC: Maybe a mile and a half, but anyway.

SS: How long?

TC: Because it was kind of slow, you know. He wasn't in no hurry.

SS: About two to three, four hours?

TC: No, I'm going to say two hours.

SS: Two hours?

TC: Yeah.

SS: Okay. Wow. That is a great story. Now, you were not here for the '64 flood, obviously, but you were here for the 1996 flood.

TC: Oh, man, what a mess.

SS: Tell me about the damage that it did, what you saw during the storm and the debris flows and the floods and what did that do in terms of the infrastructure and how did you, really everybody, had to address that?

TC: First of all, I didn't know it was going to be that severe. Our people knew that it had the potential to be that severe, but they weren't letting the word 02:03:00out about it.

SS: Are you talking about the rain that they expected?

TC: Yeah, the amount of moisture on top of the snow, that warm rain on top of the snow.

SS: Right, right.

TC: The snow was not frozen, so they had a feeling it was going to be the big one, the big one. They're kind of watching the data loggers in Corvallis, you know? Watching the weather reports, and about, I can't remember now, 10:00/11:00 they decided they needed to get down here. But in the meantime, the storm's in full force, and I'll never forget it because we had high winds with it, too. We're sitting here in the house-this wasn't part of the house, this was just a porch back then, but we were sitting in the living room-me, my daughter, and my wife-and I'm hearing all kinds of weird noises. We had a dog at that time, so I 02:04:00decided to go outside and see if I could see anything. The dog went with me. I took my flashlight and we started off towards the creek. I'm hearing boulders, they had to have been big, and it's going: kaboom, boom, boom, crash, boom and then the surging water sound and the trees are whipping and snapping and all of a sudden, we hear something huge go snap, crackle, pop, and before I knew it the dog was gone. She was gone.

SS: Scared, right?

TC: Yes. Then I turned around I was right behind her. I come in the house and I said girls, get your stuff we're sleeping in the shop. So, we did. We slept in the shop that night. SS: Because you thought you were too close to the watershed here on the side?

TC: To the trees and the creek.

SS: Yeah, right, okay.

TC: I didn't want the girls to be that close to this mess going on, so we slept in the shop that night and the next morning the girls came home and I'm at work 02:05:00at the shop. They come and talk to me and said we got to go take a look at the Watershed 3 because the road is collapsing, it's taking out the road. It hasn't gone yet, but it's fixing to. We had to go up there with the snow-we took the snowcat because Al was hoping, Al Levno, was hoping to get the snowcat across before the road collapsed so that at least we would have transportation to get up into the snow studies.

SS: Because wasn't this in February?

TC: Yes.

SS: The storm in '64/'65 was actually December and even going into January a little bit. Same principle.

TC: Yeah. They were calling it déjà vu.

SS: But '96 happened a couple of months later, I believe, a month and a half later.

TC: Yep.

SS: You wanted to have something above the break point because if you didn't get it above it before it went there's nothing you could have done in the high country without, except walk.

TC: Right, or hike in.

SS: Well, you could have got maybe snowmobiles up there, maybe?

TC: Not once the road collapsed. But we did manage later to get a side passage because, anyway, that comes later. First of all, we did manage-everybody was scared to death. Nobody wanted to take it across because it's collapsing.

SS: The snowcat?

TC: It's undercutting the blacktop, but there's still like an 8' prong section of the road that's still hanging on. The weight of the snowcat - is it going to take it out or not?

SS: Along with the person in the snow cat.

TC: Yeah, exactly.

SS: You would be a statistic at the bottom of the hill, right?

TC: Yep. So, finally one of our seasonal workers, Leroy Ray, he says, alright, 02:07:00you guys just stand back. I'll take it. I'll get up on the high side and I'll shoot it across as quick as I can. Okay, go for it Leroy. So, he did. He managed to get it across before it collapsed.

SS: And it did collapse, right?

TC: Oh yeah, but it took about another, I'm going to say, another 3 hours before it finally took it completely out. Then, when everything settled down we got over and went and checked for more damage, and yeah, everything was tore up. The bridges were gone. One was compromised, and one was completely jacked out of position, dropped into the creek.

SS: On Lookout?

TC: Yeah, on Lookout Creek. The one that crosses Lookout?

SS: Wasn't there a bridge on McRae, too?

TC: That's the one I'm thinking of, is the one where McRae hits the confluence [with Lookout Creek].

SS: Right, right.

TC: Yeah, the McRae confluence. That's the one that actually went out. The first one that crosses Lookout was damaged but not ruined. We deiced, okay, we need to get the snowmobiles out here, get them across the creek and get them set up for winter work. We did that. There was another place after Watershed 3 on 1506 [Road] where it had washed a channel through the gravel road, where the gravel road starts before you got to the bridge on 1506.

SS: Right.

TC: So, we built the bridge across that, which was basically a foot bridge, but we drove the snowmobiles over it, so we could get them on up there past the bridge that was ruined. We managed to get two snowmobiles up there, got them parked on the other side of the creek for the winter work. That's how we found 02:09:00out that black bears love snowmobile seats.

SS: Because they eat them?

TC: They eat them. They play with them. They don't swallow them. They just play with them. They rip them up. Chew on them [laughs]. You see chunks-the reason we knew it was black bears was because of the claw marks. It wasn't cougar.

SS: Wow, so you had to basically ride these snowmobiles with no seat.

TC: Exactly.

SS: That must have been comfortable. That was a scary flood. That was amazing.

TC: That lasted about 2 days, or just 1 day. It was basically just one day, and it was over. That was the one where we found out later that the Army Corp of Engineers made the statement that we were one hour away from releasing the dam. 02:10:00There's a point where you have to start letting water out.

SS: The Blue River?

TC: Yeah, the Blue River. The reservoir. They were 1 hour away. If the rain would have continued another hour they were going to have to start letting the water out, which would have made the river water come up another foot and a half. It was already starting to flood houses. It had taken out two or three already.

SS: You're talking about McKenzie, right?

TC: Yeah, McKenzie River.

SS: Alright.

TC: We lucked out. It quit raining inside that one-hour window. It stopped. It was over.

SS: The '64 flood, which I do remember as a small kid, I'm sure it regionally, especially was much more severe.

TC: Yes, it was.

SS: I mean I think this was not ice-laid, but the damage wasn't as widespread.

TC: Right.

SS: I'm talking beyond the Andrews.

TC: Right.

SS: I remember when I was a kid and it was Christmas Eve or Christmas Day because it happened right then. My grandfather was the pulp room foreman at Publishers Paper Mill which became Blue Heron, if you've been up there. It's not anymore, and I remember hearing about the food and all the bridges, but I was 6 years old and didn't really know what all this meant except I knew there was a lot of water everywhere, but I remember going to Publishers Paper Mill. My grandfather took us down. My sister and I and maybe my parents were with us. The Willamette Falls are there. [at Oregon City, Oregon] It's got a cement structure there now, too, was a gigantic rapid. I just remember this giant rapid and the best thing I can reference from a cultural perspective is you remember the African Queen when they would go through that big cataract-it was on one of the 02:12:00African rivers and it had that-it wasn't really, it looked like a gigantic rapid like that except it was ripping away parts of the mill and I just remember that. That was '64 and it just, yeah, it flooded the whole Willamette Valley and knocked out half the bridges in the whole Cascade area. A lot of them.

TC: They told me that you know that little restaurant at Finn Rock down here on the highway?

SS: You're talking about '64, right?

TC: In '64 that was a store in '64. Well, right there that's the low spot of the McKenzie River. There [the flood crest] was 3' above the blacktop. Three feet over the blacktop. That's how high the river was up here. That's a lot.

SS: Did Al Levno ever tell you his story about surviving that night?

TC: Yes, he told me about it.

SS: It was a terrifying story. It was him and Dick Fredriksen, I think.

TC: Yeah, that was one of them.

SS: They had to crawl over mountains and trees were crashing and then they got down to the valley, but they couldn't get places because everything was flooded and that was '64 though.

TC: I know it. That was a mess. I worked for a contractor in Eugene that had gone through it and he said he was one of the ambulances, his truck. He had a big, beefy 4-wheel drive. He said that's how deep the snow was in Eugene; the ambulances couldn't drive. They couldn't handle transporting anybody. So, they were hiring local 4-wheelers to come carry patients here and there, you know? So, he was an ambulance driver for three days.

SS: Interesting. Yeah, we were up in the south hills of Eugene, so any of the flooding in Eugene was down more toward the river basin and the lower areas and 02:14:00stuff. I can't remember how much of the downtown that had got flooded or something. But anyway, going back to the Andrews here. In '96 this flood happens, how much of the following year did you and other people have to address all the damage that had happened? Whether it be the gauging stations and the flumes, the roads, the bridges. Tell me about the reconstruction process of that. It basically took a lot of your time and energy for probably the better part of a year, right?

TC: Yeah. Like the gauging station was completely gone. Watershed 3 Gauging Station, it was completely gone. Al Levno found little bits and pieces of it out in the reservoir and that's all. That was just amazing that it could take a big building like that. I mean, you know-a well-constructed structure and there's 02:15:00nothing left but one-foot chunks here and there. Man!

SS: The power of water is amazing.

TC: Yeah it is.

SS: The most dramatic examples to me recently have been, well, the Indonesia, Sumatra Tsunami, but especially the Japanese one that happened 6 years ago in 2011. Seeing what that did to all those-I mean huge ships and buildings, big, tall buildings. It's amazing. The power of water.

TC: I know it.

SS: We think oh it's soft, it's water. When water hits you like that it's like getting hit by a rock.

TC: Exactly. That's the way it was with that situation. Anyway, it didn't impact us too much time-wise in the beginning, because the first thing you had to do was go to contract for road access repair.

SS: And that had to be Forest Service related because they were Forest Service roads, right?

TC: Yeah, Forest Service took care of that part. And of course, that all takes time, you know. I'm going to say it was probably not until the next, no it was that season, it was that summer, yeah.

SS: So, the summer after '96 they were dealing with the bridge and the road repair, so the situation could be more or less normal again in terms of access.

TC: Right, yeah. Then we went in and rebuilt the gauging station. Facility maintenance was heavily involved in that. That was basically in-house reconstruction. That's about it. We had some of our other ice-related research stations needed to have a little bit of repair, but it was pretty minor. It was 02:17:00mostly road damage and complete gut-out of the creek. That was so sad, man. The Forest Service, Fish and Wildlife they had just spent that whole previous summer putting in new fish habitats on Lookout Creek with the logs and cable anchors to keep everything in position. Every bit of it completely gone. Just gutted out clean. Starting over. Thousands and thousands of dollars just swept away in a few hours.

SS: Speaking of other natural disasters, a much more severe one, I've been talking to the people that worked down there at Luquillo, you know the Puerto Rico LTER site?

TC: Yep.

SS: Hurricane Maria.

TC: Oh yeah.

SS: A Category 5 hurricane basically destroyed the whole island, and I've heard that-well, let's put it this way, a lot of stuff got damaged. They have a lot of similar issues as you would have here. It's a tropical system versus a temperate zone system, but yeah, I mean I'm sure they and the Terrys of that place are working their butts off.

TC: Pretty overwhelmed, yeah.

SS: I bet you they are.

TC: You need all the help you can find.

SS: That's even more large-scale because the hurricane didn't spare anything. It wasn't just along creek beds, it was everywhere. I mean, the creek beds were bad, but also the trees are stripped, everything's knocked over. So, I can only imagine what they're dealing with.

TC: It takes a lot of team effort, you know. I still had my crew on the job. Everybody contributed and got it done.

SS: In terms of the infrastructure out in the field, Terry, and you can start with the water gauging stations, anything like that, but also the weather stations: Central Met, Vanilla Met, how did you see that you needed to improve the structure of the housings, even the protection mechanisms that you got around them because of the snow, even having them as a secondary emergency shelter facility. Tell me about how improving those and how you thought about designing those for practical reasons in addition to their science.

TC: It mostly has to do with living in the environment and learning what that environment demands. It doesn't take long before you begin to realize that 02:20:00there's certain structure designs that just won't function well in this kind of country.

SS: Give me a for example.

TC: We got long periods of not just rain but cold dampness. There's places all around the facility and in the field where it's not going to see dryness, it won't dry out until June. You've got from October to June everything's going to be wet all the time. Very few dry spells. I'm not talking about rain, just dampness. Heavy dews, cold temperatures.

SS: Just the high dew point and the high humidity in general, right.

TC: It can do-anything you design that has a potential of building a marsh trap you're going to pay for it down the line.

SS: With mold or rust or both?

TC: Mold, rust, the moisture will wick, I call it wicking if it gets underneath a shallow slope it's not going to damage just that particular spot, it's going to keep wicking just like a cancer, it grows. It reaches farther and farther because it has so much extended time of dampness. It doesn't dry out, so it's got a perfect environment to destroy whatever you build. Consequently, your roof has to have a decent slope. You're not going to get away with zero overhang. It's going to get you in the end. This place and the old cabin had spots on it where it had zero overhang because some of our older people, I won't mention any names, love the salt box style of construction that you see in New England, 02:22:00places like that, on the northeast coast. Well, that's fine for that environment because they get those extended spells of dry out time. That works for that place but not here.

SS: Well, even if you were on the east slope of the Cascades you might be able to get away with it, right?

TC: Yeah.

SS: Because it's a completely different climate regime here than on the other side of the Santiam and McKenzie pass, for instance.

TC: Another for example besides structures is surface drainage. People first thought that this ground is so porous that we'll never have surface drainage problems. Well, that's not the case. I've seen a foot of water standing on top of the pavilion down there. I'm sorry, 6" of water.

SS: You mean on the floor there, right?

TC: Because the surface drainage couldn't get out.

SS: Okay.

TC: So, you have to deal with that. You have to plan your landscape to allow for drainage, surface drainage. Once your ground saturated the water still's got to go somewhere. And it's going to go somewhere. It will just stand there and build up into a swimming pool if it doesn't get a way out. Yeah, it's a lot of learning experience for me. Over a period of time I've learned that you not only have to design those features you have to maintain them, because in some situations like our surface drainage, they have to constantly be revisited and reestablished or you'll get hit hard with heavy rain or the '96 flood. You get 02:24:00warm rain on top of warm snow and something's going to happen. Mother nature plays a critical role. Snowpack. We always have to bear in mind whether it's a field station or another structure on the facility you have to allow for snow compaction, snowpack. All our roofs are designed to meet a minimum of 48" snowpack at 80% saturation per square foot. The roofs that are put in place here as well as your foundation and wall structures are designed to hold a major 02:25:00snowpack. Stuff like that. Mother nature, like I say, she's got a critical role in design.

SS: When you came from Louisiana to Oregon and you were in construction before and then you came up here after you'd been basically back and forth for 10 years, what things did you have to unlearn? Granted, Louisiana there's a lot of moisture, but it's a lot warmer and it's not mountainous. What did you have to unlearn in terms of learning the things you just told me about in terms of how the moisture regime affects things differently here.

TC: In fact, that's what I'm going to be facing going back to Louisiana. I have to unlearn the style of construction here that would be a reverse role in Louisiana. For instance, I just learned that they don't use fresh air returns to 02:26:00HVAC systems because of the high humidity down there in Louisiana. You just don't do that because you're just pumping in more moist air for the air handlers to handle. Well, in Oregon that's the law. That's a code. You have to provide a certain amount of CFM fresh air to your systems. I'm going to go down to Louisiana and do that. I had my doubts, I wondered. Because we are having issues in our attic of Mom's house with condensation getting into the cabinets, heavy moisture. I kept thinking it needs fresh air.

SS: But the fresh air there has got heavier, wetter air, right?

TC: Yeah.

SS: Warm.

TC: The system needs fresh air into it, but then she-I told her call around to 02:27:00the professionals and find out if that could be the problem. She did, and they said no, we don't, not in Louisiana. You don't use fresh air intakes. More than likely your problem is you have the cavity above your cabinets that's trapping the warm attic air and you have your AC going on high during the summer and that's your condensation reaction and then now, and she says, well how come it never was a problem before? Because it took that long to work its way down to the groceries in the cabinet.

SS: Does it need a new roof?

TC: We already did that.

SS: Okay.

TC: We beefed up the insulation in the attic. Put on a new roof and we checked for leaks to make sure that it wasn't any kind of a roof leak, and it's not. The 02:28:00attic is well-ventilated. And he's probably right. We'll address it when I get down there. The same way when I came up here. I didn't know nothing about fresh-air intakes. I didn't put no fresh-air intakes in our early systems, so we had to come through years down the road and put in fresh-air intakes. In this place I put in a fresh-air intake.

SS: You're talking about your house here.

TC: Mm-hmm, this place.

SS: Tell me a little bit about this house and how it came to be. Obviously, if you want to share some things about your family life, too, that would be okay. I don't know if you want to.

TC: Oh yeah, I don't have a problem there. It was kind of funny.

SS: I want you to kind of go on that for a bit.

TC: It started off we were living in a camp trailer right here, right out front of the house.

SS: You, Ginger, and what was your daughter's name?

TC: My daughter, Crystal.

SS: Crystal, okay.

TC: Yeah. At that time there eventually was going to be a dwelling for 02:29:00maintenance. They wanted that to happen just from a watchdog perspective.

SS: So, there'd always be somebody here for whatever reasons, right?

TC: Right. Anyway, we were still in that ghetto in the meadow, house trailer mode. But Art McKee had already talked to me about it phasing out these trailers. We've already got the program started, and John Moreau should have known that, that we were already starting down that road to eliminate all the trailers.

SS: So, you're talking about the pink trailer, are you getting to that story?

TC: Yep, yep.

SS: Go on, do that one for us!

TC: This is the pink trailer!

SS: This is? Oh, now I remember.

TC: Yeah, you're sitting in it.

SS: No, John told me, but no one give me your version. The whole story.

TC: Right. That's where we're going.

SS: Okay, now I gotcha. A lot of memories mixed together.

TC: So, this guy calls up from Siuslaw National Forest. He's got a trailer to get rid of and he wanted to offer it to us, give us first dibs. It's a decent trailer. It's not leaking. It's old, but it's not leaking. It's small and Art McKee was off on one of his world tours and so John made the executive decision to go get it. Okay, yeah, for free we'll get it.

SS: It was pink, right? Was it really pink?

TC: We'll take it! It's actually the tag on the side of the trailer is still over there underneath my work.

SS: Right.

TC: Was, yeah, Flamingo Manufacturing. And it was pink [laughs].

SS: [Laughs].

TC: Well, I mean it was the soft, that era, pastel pink.

SS: Not hot pink.

TC: No, it wasn't hot pink. It would have been pastel pink. I should have kept a 02:31:00sample of the siding.

SS: You've got pictures, don't you?

TC: No, I don't. Not of the pink trailer.

SS: I wish that was around.

TC: Well, it kind of turned into a hush-hush operation after John dumped it in the field. Anyway, he goes and gets it, brings it to the Andrews, and parks it in the field down there by the volleyball court area.

SS: This was in the mid to late '80s?

TC: This would have been, I think it was while we were working on Quartz Building, so it'd be '90.

SS: '90, okay.

TC: '89, '90, yeah. Because we did the shop in '88 and '89. '89 we broke ground on Quartz Building and while we were building it the crew helped me start remodel on the trailer. Yeah, so it was '89 the trailer showed up in '89. Art 02:32:00McKee comes back from his world tour and he came unglued when he saw that thing out in the field. John didn't communicate with anybody about it. It's just slapping him right in the face as soon as he gets back from his trip.

SS: So, who caught the wrath first?

TC: John did [laughs].

SS: Oh, really?

TC: Oh yeah, did he ever [laughs]. It almost cost him his job.

SS: Really?

TC: But I got him settled down. Look, Art, this may not be as bad as you think. Think about this, what if we take that pink trailer back to the back over there away from where your place is and we'll set that pink trailer up for the maintenance. How about that? Well, let me think about it. You know how that 02:33:00goes. He can't make a snap decision. A couple days later he says, yeah let's go ahead and do that. That's probably a good thing to do. So, we did. We brought it back. I cleared out an area right here for it to sit. That would be that center portion is actually the trailer.

SS: That's what I'm thinking, yeah.

TC: It's 54' long and 10' wide.

SS: This wall is from the trailer?

TC: Mm-hmm.

SS: The wall I'm looking at-

TC: Part of it. I framed it out deeper.

SS: Right, right.

TC: Because they're only 2" by 3", the trailer walls were only 3" thick, 3" wide [laughs]. Anyway, yeah, we set it up and moved in and then my wife, daughter by another marriage, was going to have a baby down in Arizona, down in Phoenix. Her 02:34:00and my daughter were going to go down there and be with her to help her deliver the baby and get going with the care and all that. We might be gone a couple months, and I'm thinking mmmm... this would be a perfect opportunity to make it decent.

SS: Gussy it up, right?

TC: Me and the crew got started on it while we're building the Quartz Building and started enlarging it, remodeling it, fixing it up. One of the funniest things is the crew just loved it. We took the edges loose off of the old metal roof. It was one of those old seamless metal roofs you know of a mobile home and just rolled it up. Look this is just like peeling open a can of sardines, I love it! They thought that was the funniest thing. We got all the way to the end and we had this gigantic roll of metal. Now what are you going to do?

SS: Like sheet metal, right?

TC: Huh?

SS: Thin, sheet metal?

TC: Yep, thin sheet metal. Galvanized. It wasn't even aluminum back then.

SS: Right, right.

TC: We got a cable and the backhoe over here and strapped it, grabbed on to it with the backhoe, threw it in the dumpster with the other trash. We had a big dumpster up here at the time and started framing the new roof over to the add-on areas. Like I said, at that time this was just a little screened in porch right here.

SS: Where we're sitting right now which is in the shape of a half hexagon, right?

TC: Yeah.

SS: Isn't that it? Right?

TC: Octagon, actually.

SS: Oh, octagon. Oh, okay.

TC: Well, it's five-sided. What's it called a five-sided bay.

SS: I got a great idea-you told me that they're thinking about turning this into a physical center. You could have extreme fighting octagon scientists here [laughs].

TC: [Laughs] There you go.

SS: That's a joke, for the record. That's not a serious question. Anyway, so your wife's gone. How far did you get by the time she got back?

TC: They came back early. I was to the sheet rock stage when they got back, and I should've never done it in the first place. I thought it was going to be a sweet surprise. She thought it was totally disgusting because she was left out of the whole process. Oh, she was ready to kill me.

SS: You didn't have no design input and all that.

TC: That's right. So, I said, settle down. Okay, I'll let you choose the kitchen cabinets and the carpet and what kind of flooring do you want. Well, okay, I can at least do that. She chose all the carpet. There used to be a lot more carpet 02:37:00in there than there is now because she loved carpet. But this is not country for carpet. This is no-no country for carpet.

SS: Well, you ain't going to keep it clean.

TC: No.

SS: I cleaned carpets in Arizona for two years. This would not stay clean at all. Especially back in the-well, shag carpeting. Now it's, this is the all-weather stuff you got in here. The indoor-outdoor stuff in this room that we're talking in right now.

TC: That's the story of the pink trailer. We managed to make it work out just fine after John Moreau got scalped [laughs]. Poor John I felt sorry for him. But yeah Art threatened to fire him. He was so upset at first. It took him a couple of days to settle down.

SS: But he got it for free, right?

TC: Yeah, it didn't cost nothing but gas to go get it and bring it up here just on the fly. He used a pickup truck to haul it in.

SS: Oh, so that was a Forest Service vehicle without permission, right?

TC: Well, no, I mean it was assigned to us. That wasn't a problem. It was just a little underrated for a 10'x54' house trailer. Just little.

SS: You mean how solid it was.

TC: The weight.

SS: The truck that you were bringing it up.

TC: The weight restriction, yeah. But it handled it just fine. He didn't have a bit of trouble. He had a permit to pull it on the freeway. That wasn't a problem. We often forgot back in those early eras, we're state workers and we're using federal vehicles and we're not used to their protocol and their way of doing business. There was a lot of times when we were outlaws without even 02:39:00knowing it, when we weren't even aware that we were bruising somebody's toes.

SS: From what I've heard there have been issues over time about people using Forest Service trucks improperly or after work, even though it was innocent. Things like that. Were you here for the skinny-dipping controversy? Were you?

TC: Yeah [laughs]. Oh man. Good grief. Well, I wasn't here for the early era of it.

SS: Well, there was an early one and there was a later one. Two of them.

TC: That's right. I wasn't here for the first one. Al Levno used to tell me about it. And Art. Art had a few stories.

SS: But there was a recent one, too, right? More recent one?

TC: Yeah.

SS: What did that involve?

TC: It was just kids skinny dipping.

SS: You mean the workers up here?

TC: And they didn't know that it was a no-no. There was a little bit of hand 02:40:00slapping, that's all.

SS: Anyway, now tell me a little about, more about your life in this house. Tell me a little bit more about the finishing of the house, your life up here with Ginger and Crystal. You had a dog at the time, right? A German shepherd.

TC: For a while, yeah.

SS: Tell me about your life and what it was like to live up here as a family within this unique community.

TC: It was a, yeah, that would be a good way to put it. It was a very unique situation for us. My wife had already started home schooling our daughter.

SS: Because the nearest school would have been McKenzie Bridge, right?

TC: Yeah.

SS: Okay.

TC: That wasn't really a problem. We're a little isolated from the rest of civilization.

SS: Humanity.

TC: Right. But it wasn't too bad. We kept her connected with other children her 02:41:00age, too. We felt it was important to do that. She'd always been a good girl and she had a lot of good friends. That was never a problem. The real challenge was facing the School Board because we started doing that in the era when the public-school systems were trying to shut it down.

SS: Home schooling?

TC: Yeah, they were trying to stop home schooling. But then it became more and more apparent that there was no way that they could really honestly fight that, especially if you went to a lawyer and that's what we did. We got into a lawyer system that helps to explain to you your rights, what you can do and what you can't do, and they protect you. It was almost like a club or something. Anyway, 02:42:00the bottom line was all we had to do is have her tested once a year at the school, at the public school and as long as she could do the test it's not a problem. It never was. They throw out those scare tactics. That's what they try to do first. Finally, we put our foot down and said no, this is going to happen. This is the way it's going to go and when we're ready to have her tested we'll be here. They never fought us again.

SS: I think the concern is that to making sure whomever is doing the teaching is giving that child adequate skills.

TC: Quality, that's right.

SS: At least in the basics, you know? Of course, the whole American experiment is based in many ways in the public education system. Thomas Jefferson says 02:43:00that's the bedrock of democracy going forward is education and the public education system. That's in our DNA.

TC: Yeah.

SS: It's really hard to break that. Of course, infrastructure, bureaucracy always overreaches itself and tries to control everything.

TC: A little bit, yeah.

SS: I know what you're talking about, yeah.

TC: But they ended up cooperating, you know? It was a scary challenge at first. They ended up cooperating.

SS: This would have been back in the '90s?

TC: It started off in '78.

SS: Oh, immediately. When you were in Vida.

TC: Yeah, she was born in '76 and '78 was when my wife decided we were going to home school her. I said okay as long as you can handle it.

SS: You were unhappy with the school system up here, or just-?

TC: Not at all. My wife felt that the Lord has His hand on her and that she should have-

SS: A say.

TC: A very special education. And boy she got it. My wife didn't cut no corners. Ginger put her through the course. But she's a good girl, a good smart girl. She handled it quite well. When we moved here to the Andrews, I'm going to say she was 11 years old, 12 years old. My concern was that we were too much the gypsies and our daughter needed some roots, some stability for a while. Even in terms of her education, I wanted to see that take place in a more stable atmosphere. The rest of her education. That was part of the reason I made the decision with Art to go ahead and yeah, I'll stay. If you're going to open up a permanent 02:45:00position, then yeah, I'll stay. Well, my wife, she didn't like that.

SS: So, she didn't like the idea of coming up here at first?

TC: She was okay with it, just on a temporary-you know, that gypsy blood. We'd come up and hang out for a few months and then go. That was fine. But permanent, oh man the stuff hit the fan. She threatened divorce for four years and finally one day I said you know, you might as well quit talking that because you're mine and I'm not going to let you go. The husband has the right at least at that time.

SS: I think it's changed since then.

TC: Yeah, I think it has, too. She never fought me. I said, you can fight me but I'm not going to give you a yes. If you want a divorce, if you want to separate, then I'm willing to let you do that but I'm not going to give you a divorce.

SS: Did she come to accept this eventually?

TC: Nope, never did. She never did. Never got over it. Poor girl.

SS: So, eventually did she end up living somewhere else, Terry?

TC: No, she tried it one year and was gone for about 6 months and called me up one day and said I'm going to come back. I said, sure. Come on back. This is your place. She came back, but still she never got over it. She got dementia when she got-I think part of it was connected with her cancer. It was a real rare form, and I can't remember the name of it now. It got into her colon and they took the colon out and through that surgical process and the drugs, the dementia that she did have she went over the edge. She just really lost it after 02:47:00the surgery.

SS: Did she have to be in a care facility or something?

TC: Yeah.

SS: I'm sorry about that, Terry.

TC: I know. That was a living nightmare.

SS: Was it close enough to here where you were able to-?

TC: Yeah, Springfield.

SS: Oh, in Springfield, okay.

TC: But I still couldn't visit as often as I wanted to because she was always trying to make me feel guilty and get her out of there. There was just no way that was going to happen, and it was tearing me apart.

SS: Well, you couldn't take care of her up here.

TC: No, no.

SS: Besides, I mean, and I'm not saying people up here aren't understanding, but this is not the kind of place that you could have a dementia patient wandering around.

TC: That's right.

SS: They could get hurt.

TC: That's right, or hurt others, or cause someone to get hurt.

SS: It could freak out people that don't know the situation. People are understanding, but, you know.

TC: But, yeah. Yeah, it was rough, but it was for the best. Greg Downing was a 02:48:00big help through all of that. He got her, Ginger and him got to be really good friends.

SS: That's really nice.

TC: Towards the end there.

SS: He's a really cool guy.

TC: Yes, he is.

SS: I like Greg.

TC: He's a very good man, good heart. They got to be really good friends and he and I both question now whether we should have went with the surgery or not, because he's the one that ended up convincing her to go in for the final testing.

SS: The colon thing, you're talking about?

TC: Yeah and having the colon cancer removed. Well, after the surgery when she was in the facility 8 months later it came back and broke into her uterus. That's when the surgeon came out and said there's nothing we can do. We sewed 02:49:00her back up and that's it. She might have a year or 6 months. It was 3 months later she was gone. It ate her up that quick. Which was kind of a blessing, you know, because the dementia had-she was at the point where she was wandering around the home naked as a jaybird, and she was the most modest woman you would have ever met, and then she just totally flipped the other way.

SS: It does strange things to people.

TC: Yes, it does.

SS: I told you outside I came back home to Oregon from Arizona to care for my mother who had dementia, Alzheimers and it was quite an adventure and I lived with her the whole time. It was different man-wife, son-mother, but still it's 02:50:00hard. We kept her in the family home, but she didn't have the severity that you're talking about, at least it would have got there. Then there wasn't the other cancer thing. A heart attack took my mother before the dementia got completely gone. It was pretty bad, but yeah it was-yeah, the best analogy I've heard was it's like you have a house where all the lights are on and then all of a sudden for whatever reasons this turns off and then this turns off. In other words, the compartments of cognition in the mind start to shut down. And sometimes then they turn back on, so you think oh they're okay.

TC: Exactly.

SS: It goes like that and-

TC: That was the torture for me was seeing that back and forth. Wow. There were so many things I've built in here hoping that, thinking that she would come 02:51:00back. I didn't give up for a long time.

SS: You're talking about paintings or you're talking about cupboards?

TC: Cupboards, cabinets. I made a little sign board, backsplash board behind the range, kind of a vintage thing with her name on it. I was doing all kinds of little things like that. They helped keep me busy and they helped to keep my hope alive, too.

SS: And keep you sane, too.

TC: Yep, sanity.

SS: Right, right. I assume that you put a couple paintings in her room down in Springfield, though, right. Did you?

TC: Yeah, yeah. Took some furniture down to her, her favorite DVDs, a few things like that. It didn't last long. It's a strange atmosphere down there. Anyway, things disappeared. But things were disappearing here before she left when she 02:52:00had dementia before the cancer. I don't know what happened, especially her DVDs. They were always disappearing, completely. I don't know if they ended up in the trash or what, but they just disappeared.

SS: It's hard to explain stuff. Because every story like this has similarities but they're also different.

TC: Unique, right? Because the person's unique, each person.

SS: And the mind is such a complicated thing.

TC: I know it.

SS: And we don't know so many things. But your family and your wife and Crystal are all over this place. This is their personality?

TC: Yeah.

SS: So, where's Crystal now?

TC: She, let's go back to her story.

SS: Yeah, let's finish that, yeah.

TC: Home schooling-she finished school and went to work at Harbick's [Country] Store, which is now Blue Sky Market for a couple of years, about 4 years, 02:53:00actually. We gave her the choice you want to go to college or you want to do something else? Some kind of education. This is your call and we'll support you.

SS: Right.

TC: She thought about it a long time. A couple of friends of hers counseled her. One particular friend was already in what they called a YWAM program, which was Youth With A Mission. They're international. They're all over the world and it's where kids learn to interact with street kids, other kids, poor kids, and help them to get on the right track, get away from the gangs and the drugs and all that stuff. Anyway, she decided to join YWAM and this was 20 years ago, something like that.

SS: She still doing that?

TC: She started off with YWAM International and went to England, Spain, France, Germany-mostly to European countries. Spent time doing missionary work. She finally settled in Scotland. Fell in love with Scotland and decided to start the process of nationalizing herself as a Scot. She got nationalized as a Scot and then Scotland, the Church of Edinburgh wanted her take on the task, they were ready to turn it over, the head of the, it's called the 24/7 Prayer Scotland. They were ready to turn the principal position over to her. The other guy was 02:55:00retiring, and they wanted her to take it on.

SS: Right.

TC: Because she's that strong of a spiritual girl. So, she did. She took that on 2 years ago and that's where she's at now. She's the head coach for the International Prayer Teams.

SS: Is she married?

TC: She's single. She got close one time but decided boy was a little too immature. That happens.

SS: Yeah, we tend to be immature until we're not [laughs].

TC: Guys are like that, you know [laughs]. Anyway, we're still hoping she'll get a husband. She says she's not opposed to it, but she's not in a hurry. She's 42 now.

SS: Sounds like she's got a good mission in life.

TC: Yes, she does. She's very focused and very determined. Yeah, and I'm very proud of her. She did good with her education that her mother gave her. She did 02:56:00real good. She really knows how to relate to kids. She knows how to live out of a suitcase because she did that with us for several years.

SS: That's very ironic she grew up a lot of the time out here far from most kids. Maybe that's part of the attraction.

TC: Yeah, that could be, yeah. She just has a very strong heart for the street kids.

SS: Tell me a little about John Moreau. He was another guy who was here even longer than you.

TC: Oh yeah.

SS: But you guys parallel really each other and because of what he did and what you did, you worked together a lot. Just talk to me about John.

TC: Yes, we did.

SS: Just talk to me about John, his role here, and your relationship with John and some stories and anecdotes, funny and otherwise, about you and John.

TC: Kind of like brothers. We fought a lot. We were always working together, 02:57:00around each other, all the time. We'd get in a tizzy now and then [laughs]. He was a good counselor. He was a very good counselor for me, taught me a lot of things: how to do business. Before I came along John was the Site Manager, he was the Field Technician, he was Maintenance. He was everything before Don Eilee showed up John was here taking care of-I mean yeah it was more primitive then, but that was his role. When Art McKee showed up as Site Director, he was Site Manager and Maintenance and Field Tech. But of course, that became more and more obvious that he wouldn't be able to fill all those roles. As we grew, then his job became more and more focused on just being a Field Tech.

SS: Basically, monitoring all the equipment out there.

TC: Yeah, which is a full-time job in itself.

SS: But repairing it as he could but you often were probably the more skilled mechanic, right?

TC: Mm-hmm. Much more so than John. John wasn't exactly-well, he wasn't polished, let me put it that way. He didn't know a lot about construction techniques and so he would come to me for advice on how to make something work and make it last longer and different things like that. I was involved in helping him construct it and placement, going out to the field and helping him get things set up. Over the years we've worked together on all of his field stations: getting them set up and functional. Some of them we had to haul all 02:59:00the material in with a quad. There's trail access only. That was actually kind of fun.

SS: Vanilla Met was one of those, right? [Vanilla Leaf meteorological station]

TC: Yeah, Vanilla Met. Yep. Used a quad to carry in sack after sack after sack of concrete for the foundations.

SS: Foundations.

TC: Stem walls. And an 8'x10' building don't sound like much, but when it sits on a stem wall that's 3' high because of the slope that it sits on [laughs], that's a lot of concrete, boy.

SS: Now Central Met you had road access, right?

TC: Yep.

SS: Yeah.

TC: UpLo [Upper Lookout] and Central were a road access.

SS: But Vanilla was the quads.

TC: Yep. That was all quad work up there. Boy what a job.

SS: When we were in the field doing the interview, he talked a lot about you and him working and doing the building and figuring out what worked and what didn't work. Sometimes the first construction model-and protecting the orifices and 03:00:00making sure this didn't collapse and all that.

TC: Oh, man, I know it. It was a challenge. It was fun, though.

SS: Yeah?

TC: Because he is the one that would do the research on what we needed to use to make those things work and I was the mechanic who knew how to take those things and put them all together.

SS: And make them functional?

TC: Yeah and make them functional. Yep. Yeah those were good days. They were great days. We were outlaws a lot of times and that was part of the job.

SS: Right.

TC: I mean just outlaws in ignorance.

SS: Outlaws of ignorance-that's a great name for a song or a movie [laughs]. Outlaws of ignorance.

TC: [Laughs] I know it. Right. There was so much protocol back in those early days that we just didn't know. We didn't. In fact, it finally reached a point 03:01:00where the staff says, okay, that's enough. We are tired of being outlaws without knowing it. We want the Forest Service to start feeding us with the information we need to do this stuff.

SS: Before the fact so you didn't have to go and fix a bunch of stuff or rebuild or redo or mix something.

TC: And my butt was getting sore from being slapped so many times [laughs]. And they complied! They did. They helped a lot. Those mid-construction era days, mid-90s, I'm going to say early to mid-90s they started helping us with training: free programs, free training programs.

SS: What were the kind of things that you learned that you weren't supposed to do that you then learned how to do the way it was supposed to be. Give me a for example.

TC: I think one of the most critical ones for me is communicate. Communicate what you're going to do before you do it. Make sure you're clear with your communication so that everybody feels like they're all on the same page. So many times, I learned that the hard way, you know. Training-how to take care of a vehicle, being more conscientious and aware of what you're doing with the equipment you're using. There are training manuals for that kind of thing. Those have been really important for us. When I'm drawing plans for the building, like the engineers taught me, you need to draw, yeah, I was never big on intense 03:03:00drafts, drawing up blueprints. Try to keep it simple. And the engineers said, yah, you want to keep it simple, but you need to be precise and you have to treat contractors like first graders. That's what the engineers told me [laughs], that way there's no failure of communication. They can look at that picture and they can see, they can't get around what that picture says. That's the point they're making. You treat them like they're first graders. Simple but concise. Yeah, just a lot of things like that we learned over the years not to get our hands slapped so many times. It still happens but not like it used to, you know. There's no way around it. You're bound to either break or bend one 03:04:00sooner or later.

SS: Tell me about any rescue stories or epic snow adventures or, I mean, John told me about some of those, but I know you were probably involved in some of those. Tell me about a particular-

TC: That's a learning curve too.

SS: Tell me about that.

TC: Going out on the snow-we had a buddy system going early on.

SS: Before you had walkie-talkies, right?

TC: Oh yeah.

SS: Did you always have walkie-talkies?

TC: No-if we did, I didn't know it.

SS: Okay, but a buddy system in place is my point.

TC: Yeah, we had the buddy system going so [for the] maintenance department one of their responsibilities in the winter time was to go out with a researcher, if he needed a buddy to go out with him. That was one of the first things I learned on the snowmobile is if the snowmobile starts to go sideways a little bit don't 03:05:00throw your leg out to try and stabilize yourself.

SS: Or you're going to break your leg, right?

TC: No, you're going to get ripped off the snowmobile and the snowmobile's going to take off right into the creek.

SS: Okay.

TC: That's what I found out [laughs].

SS: Did you do that?

TC: It didn't reach the creek, but yeah. Oh yeah, it jerked me right off of there. Man, that was an eye-opener.

SS: Were you okay?

TC: My thigh muscle, that's all it did, is it bruised the thigh muscle.

SS: Oh, okay.

TC: I was sore for a week, man. It was just [smacking sound] and I was gone. Just one little touch.

SS: Well, the best lessons learned are painful lessons.

TC: I guess so. You never forget it.

SS: No.

TC: Yeah, and there's been lots of times where we had to dig guys out of the snow. Snowmobiles getting buried, just too deep for one guy to dig out, you know. We never had any serious accidents. No bone-breakers.

SS: It's amazing nobody every died in the Andrews, historically.

TC: I know.

SS: Because there are all the people, all the science, the topography's pretty dramatic. There's some places where you could get hurt. TC: Oh, absolutely.

SS: It's not like we're on the edge of the North Sister or something, but it's still there's a lot of hazardous areas up high, especially.

TC: Yep, it can happen. Yeah, no deaths thank goodness. Because I mean it's basically a dangerous environment. You have to look at it that way. This place can kill you, and you need to respect it for that.

SS: I think there's only been a couple broken legs.

TC: Yeah, only a couple.

SS: The sheriff?

TC: One recent one, yeah, Sheriff for one.

SS: You were here for that, right?

TC: Yeah, but man isn't that bizarre. I mean he wasn't even-

SS: I mean he was out with basically a crew of inmates doing trail worker or 03:07:00helping pairing the batteries up, I think.

TC: Yep.

SS: For Barbara Bond's system.

TC: Yep.

SS: Yeah, and then of course the sheriff breaks his leg [laughs].

TC: [Laughs] I know. That was hilarious.

SS: Go figure, right? And I guess some student, or somebody broke their leg out somewhere, an ankle or something once.

TC: Yep.

SS: I think that's-but that's the most severe that I've ever heard.

TC: Yeah.

SS: Which I think is a great safety record, really.

TC: Yeah, I know it. And I think that's because our people have always respected the danger of the environment here. They know that it can be very dangerous, especially for a person that's out alone that it could result in a death. It really could. We've always respected that. I've always admired our people for that. They're always trying to improve our technique, you know. There was always 03:08:00room for improvement, like our radio system. We're always trying to get that working better, more areas get better coverage and that kind of thing, better awareness, you know. Our safety days so that the kids understand that being aware of the danger and how to take care of yourself in that danger is critical, very critical.

SS: I think continuity here is one of the reasons why the Andrews has been such a strong site.

TC: Yeah.

SS: Administratively and scientifically. I think it's reflected in what you're talking about. Continuity and you also have a lot of integrity, a lot of people who are serious, they're smart people, but they're also good people. You've had a continuity and a commitment to making this successful and safe and enjoyable.

TC: Yeah. That's hard to do. That's a hard balance to achieve. For the most part it works well.

SS: I'm going to give you, this is a two-ended question. You're going to be able to answer it coming and going, so to speak. What was the big culture shock when you first came to Oregon from the south? In reverse, how have you become acclimated to a completely different culture, but also environment, and how do you think it's going to be going back. Kind of do a 2-part question there: tell me about the first culture shock and learning curve and now having soaked in this for 35 years, how do you think it's going to be going back?

TC: That'll be easy. I could tell you for a fact, me and my wife's first 03:10:00impression of Oregon in 1971: where are the bugs? There's no bugs in Oregon! I can't believe it. This is heaven! [Laughs] That's what we're thinking, there's no bugs in Oregon! I was shocked. There's no mosquitos. There's no no-see-ums. There's no-in Louisiana, every time you stop for gas you have to wash your windshield because it's so splattered with bugs-

SS: You can't see.

TC: That's a constant job. You have to keep that windshield cleaned up. I washed my windshield in Oregon maybe once a week [laughs]. If even that much, that often. That was amazing. Yeah. No snakes. No bugs. No alligators. I just can't 03:11:00believe there's actually country like this. It's paradise. But then we had to experience our first winter: rain, rain, rain, rain, rain, rain, rain, rain. Let's get out of here. We're going back to Houston. Yeah, it was culture shock weather-wise and the environment wise. The people were a little more-we had a little trouble adjusting to that difference because down south people are in your face friendly, right now. How you doing, man? Let's get a cup of coffee. They don't even: who are you? Well, that's Oregonians say: who are you? Get away from me.

SS: I need my space.

TC: It takes a while to get to know Oregonians, and that's the only difference. 03:12:00It takes a little longer.

SS: Interesting. How do you think it's going to be going back?

TC: Oh, boy. Now what I've already been practicing. One of the first things I've noticed going back is the humidity. I don't remember it being that bad when I was a kid down there.

SS: Well, because you were acclimated to it.

TC: That's right [laughs].

SS: I'll never forget my first lesson in really intense heat and humidity was in 1984. My father and I went on a cross-country trip for 5 weeks. He picked me up in Flagstaff, Arizona. I was living in Phoenix. We drove all the way across the country to visit my sister in Georgia. She was teaching and then we went up to Chicago and to the Midwest and then went through all the national parks of the Rocky Mountains and back to Oregon. It was a wonderful experience. But I'll never forget this. Number one, two funny things for the record here, and I was 03:13:00going to mention it to you when you were talking to your sister earlier: the worst smell of my life were the stockyards outside of Amarillo, Texas. I was sleeping. It's the biggest in the world, or it was. I was sleeping and all of a sudden, my eyes started to burn. I felt like-and it was this light and fire over it, it was the biggest stockyard in the world-the wind was blowing. It was the worst thing I've ever smelled, okay. Anyway, it was another day and a half later we stayed in Memphis. In 1984 it's still the worst heat wave in the history of the south. 1984. Many people died. We went to Memphis, Tennessee. We were staying right on the Mississippi River and that day it was 104o with 95% humidity, which is almost meteorologically the highest combination you can get 03:14:00of those two factors. It was the hottest, most horrible heat I've ever felt. It seemed way more abnormal than the normal combination, another 5, 10 degrees and 5% humidity. It was so bad I didn't even go outside. It was like a hot blanket hitting me in the face. As we're driving over the-

TC: A hot, wet blanket.

SS: And we didn't have time to go to Graceland because we had to get over across to Mississippi and Alabama to get to my sister, and I remember my comment to my father was, I said: no wonder Elvis did drugs [laughs].

TC: [Laughs].

SS: Because it was so insufferably hot. If you read back in the internet look up 1984 heat wave south and it will tell you about that. It was a deadly heat wave. We hit it right in the-actually, at the end of the heat wave, because by the time we got to Georgia it was starting to taper off.

TC: Oh, right.

SS: Anyway, so I'm just telling you that was my first experience. My second was 03:15:00hiking in the Amazon jungle with my wife, my wife from Peru. Having taught history, exploration history, of people trying to cross the Amazon. I learned during the first hike we did in the Amazon why those explorers always died [laughs]. Because that degree of humidity is really difficult to survive, and especially when you're out there, because you sweat out so much water. I'm just giving you a little something to look forward to again [laughs].

TC: Right, thanks. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I don't remember all that when I was a kid. It didn't seem near that bad.

SS: It doesn't though, you know? It doesn't seem the same. Even in Phoenix when I went down the first year it was horrible. I suffered horribly. Then I got acclimated to it. Then when I got older and smart I started to hate the heat again, but it was a different kind of heat except for that monsoon thing in the 03:16:00middle where you got 4 to 6-8 weeks of humidity. But it's not the kind of humidity you get down there in Louisiana and Texas. That's hot.

TC: I know. It's almost like a boiling heat, humidity. Boiling steam.

SS: The one thing is you don't get cold winters down there.

TC: Well, we do. But they're short-lived. That's the difference. They only last for a month or two. But oh yeah, they get their ice storms. I've seen snow on Holly Beach, right on the gulf. It's just not there very long. Four inches. The record in Sulphur is 4" for 3 days? I think it was 3 days they had 4" of snow in South Louisiana.

SS: Of course, you get hurricanes, too.

TC: That was years and years ago. Yeah, that's what we get a lot of.

SS: Were you in Sulphur when Hurricane Betty hit? That's that really horrible 03:17:00one in '65?

TC: Yeah. The worst one that hit Sulphur was Hurricane Audrey and they lost-and that was, that would have been maybe the late '50s. It'd have to be from mid to late '50s because I was just a young, young boy then. A lot of people died in that one mostly because the people were warned, but ignored the warning and chose not to leave and they should have because that was the year, that was the hurricane that brought in the 500' tidal wave? It was something like 400 people, killed 400 people.

SS: Of course, the worst example is not too far from you: the Galveston 03:18:00Hurricane of 1900.

TC: Yeah.

SS: 8,000 people.

TC: I know. My grandma kept a picture of that. There was nothing left but a couple polls and the sea wall, part of the sea wall.

SS: Well, they didn't have a sea wall then. They built the sea wall after it happened.

TC: Yeah, that's what it was. After that mess.

SS: I mean that's a classic example of before there were planes and before there were satellites how did you do that?

TC: Right.

SS: The hurricane people in Cuba right after the U.S. basically as a spoils of war after the Spanish-American War got Cuba from Spain and of course the Cubans were experts at hurricane predictions. They didn't name them back then. It was just the hurricane of 1900. They knew it came by Cuba and they tried to warn the gulf coast and because it wasn't really integrated into the U.S. Weather Service 03:19:00yet, and there was also a racial thing to it. The Latinos. They didn't listen to it. Of course-

TC: They paid the price.

SS: It was a Cat [category] 4, probably. The storm surge is what took out Galveston. I mean there wasn't much left of the city.

TC: Right.

SS: That's the kind of thing you have to look forward to [laughs]. I'm scaring the crap out of you here as we're doing this interview, but I'm just trying to get you to talk about anything you want to about that. I'm going to ask you some unrelated questions, but I want to make sure I fill all the gaps of what I wanted to cover. You being an artistic guy, too, has it been rather enjoyable, even interesting, for you to see the arts and humanities aspect of the LTER thing become developed like it is?

TC: Oh yeah.

SS: Largely because of Fred Swanson but also because of Charles Goodrich and other people that have been very involved. You want to tell me a little about that? How you've seen science embrace the arts and the humanities in a very formal sense?

TC: I'm absolutely thrilled because that was non-existent for many years. It was basically head down study, you know? We don't have time for all that foo-foo [laughs]. You know? Some call it. But anyway, I am. I'm thrilled to death to see that beginning to take effect and take root. I think it's going to grow. It's a growing trend seeing the arts and humanities displaying the scientific aspects. That is just an eye opener for me. I've seen some beautiful results. I just, 03:21:00yes, I'm excited.

SS: Like Leah Wilson's work?

TC: I know it. Yes.

SS: And the gentleman who was the reporter for the Register Guard who does the repaints of the old photographs, the colorizations. I'm forgetting his name, and I'm sorry for the record. [Bob Keefer]

TC: I am too. Yeah, that is so cool. I'm glad to see that happening. Fred Swanson picked a good, he made a good choice getting that program going.

SS: I think he was always prone to being a kind of renaissance man, scientist. I think as he became more integrated into the LTER system and planning-

TC: She got out alive!

CC: I did!

SS: We'll take a break here for a sec- [recording cuts off and restarts]. Continue on with the arts and humanities thing. You were right in the middle of that. You were talking about Fred and seeing that develop and-

TC: Yeah, I think we were just about buttoning that up. Anyway, I'm just-

SS: Okay, maybe we were.

TC: I'm really impressed with Fred Swanson's efforts to get that going. I think it's going to be a growing trend just to follow that up again. Oh, man.

SS: And you of all people appreciate the interface between the arts and other things.

TC: Yeah.

SS: Because a lot of people think science not the arts.

TC: Right. It's one or the other, not both.

SS: They don't think of mechanical things and the arts. In your case. So, you identified the interfaces and the relationships and how they support each other.

TC: Yep. Exactly. They do. It's a valuable asset I think not only to the science community, but to the public community. I think it's going to create better understanding, better communication.

SS: Well, you know back in the beginning of the modern science era, back in the late 1700s, early 1800s the scientific disciplines that we know of today were 03:23:00not formed. There was a few, but the arts and the sciences were more fused back then.

TC: That's right.

SS: Then as they became developed in the modern science, they became stove piped in deep, deep wells of information, methodology where you had to become a specialist to survive in your discipline and I think we've kind of lost-

TC: Lost a connection.

SS: Well, the connection with the holism of everything.

TC: Yes. That's right.

SS: Not everybody, but-and the people like Fred I think identify that and understand that and I think the LTER science sites that are really developed really understand that and are going forward. Now, this Andrews is probably a really shining example of how the arts and humanities have really gone strong and there's a few other LTERs that are that way. Some of them not so much. 03:24:00That's just a matter of leadership but also staffing and limitations and funding and personalities and there's a million different things that go into stuff like that.

TC: Oh man, you caught him. Good job.

CC: Over by the dumpster. They were having a blast.

SS: What'd you catch?

CC: Chipmunks.

TC: The chipmunks were out and about.

SS: Chipmunks? I'm going to turn this off for-[recording cuts out and begins again]. If you had a wish list and you were going to be here for another 10 years, for example, and you wanted to see this thing become completed, maybe even to another level of high functionality, aesthetic beauty, whatever, what do you think this place needs to move up even better? Just more maintenance or a little more of what?

TC: I think the big one I think, and I think it's in safe hands for that, is going to be the grounds. I just haven't had much time to pay much attention to 03:25:00all the plants, plant beds, and almost all the buildings need-well, all the buildings need either all of it or more. There still a little naked. A little more landscaping is what we need.

SS: Okay.

TC: Finish dressing things up.

SS: Basically putting a few more conifers and other bushes that really do good in this climate.

TC: Native stock, mm-hmm. We try to focus on native stock.

SS: Well, you really want to obviously.

TC: Well, yeah because of the particular environment that we're in.

SS: You don't want to bring any grasses in, a la false brome.

TC: Right [laughs]. That ain't going to happen. But we've got some native, well, not so much-anyway, we got a few invasive species that we just won't let go of that we've been told we're not supposed to allow, like foxglove.

SS: Sorry, anywhere on the campus, you mean?

TC: Yeah, on the facility.

SS: Now it's escaped into the woods?

TC: Foxglove is here to stay.

SS: Okay.

TC: I love foxglove. I think it's gorgeous.

SS: But it's not natural.

TC: Yeah. The wild stuff. It's an invasive species. I didn't know that, but I found out through the Forest Service botanist that we're not supposed to encourage foxglove. It's a beautiful plant when it's blooming, when it's got its little bells hanging, you know? That's just cool. Oh well.

SS: What about the other buildings over there, like the main office and some of those structures over there, even some of the dorms. What do you think they could use? Or what kind of upgrades do you think they will need soon, or do you think they're pretty set for now?

TC: I think they're pretty set for now. We have a good maintenance program 03:27:00started. You know, program of maintenance, keeping up with your exterior painting, new roofing and all of that kind of thing. It's pretty much on schedule. I'm glad to see that. The more of it we're starting to document more and more of the history as being part of the documented record. I think that's critical. I never really kept up with that very well.

SS: Now, let me ask you a very practical question from the fact of what I've been doing in the archive and all of the historical documents, including the plants and everything from the first flumes that were put in in 1951 to all the other stuff, how would really organized professional curation of those records, 03:28:00just like what I'm doing will help the science, how do you perceive that will help the people that comes after you or after that person in terms of knowing the history of this place in terms of the infrastructure and maintenance.

TC: Right. Where it'll come in the most, it'll be the handiest will be for the future maintenance people because they have something to go back to to look at like a water heater. Well, yeah, I know that water heater isn't very old, but how old is it? Is it worth saving? Or is it time to let it go?

SS: In other words, the liner splitter, something inside.

TC: Mm-hmm.

SS: Right.

TC: Or even if you got a 20-year-old water heater that has lost an element, well, why change the element if it's 20 years old. You know the tank's going to 03:29:00be next. So, let it go. If you have a history you go back to that page and say, oh yeah it was replaced in 2005, so it's still worth saving. Let's go ahead and repair it.

SS: This is a real practical question because I am literally organizing those files right now. Do you have a lot of blueprints and records in your shop too, Terry?

TC: I do. Blueprints.

SS: Okay, so you're covered for a lot of this stuff, right?

TC: Yeah. I would say a good 80% we have accumulated.

SS: Okay.

TC: Especially for the site managers. It'll be a big help. What we have begun to do this past year is to start a computer aspect of it, rather than hard copy stuff.

SS: Digitize.

TC: Yeah, digitize.

SS: So, you've been able to digitize some of the big plans?

TC: Mm-hmm.

SS: Oh, you have?

TC: Yep.

SS: Oh, okay.

TC: Some have been digitized and some haven't.

SS: Now, who's going to replace you? Or is it going to be a collection of people?

TC: Already has happened.

SS: Who's that's going to be?

TC: His name's Rod Fouts. He's 62 years old.

SS: Rod Fouts?

TC: Fouts: F-O-U-T-S.

SS: Got it.

TC: He started today. Today was his first day.

SS: Is he going to stay on campus? Or is he going to live down-

TC: Yes, he has a fifth-wheel trailer and he's going to bring it up here. Eventually he'll set it up to live in. That's his preference, probably right next to this house and go from there. First, he'll probably live in here until he gets the grounds developed and utilities.

SS: So, he'll live in your old house here?

TC: Mm-hmm.

SS: Okay.

TC: Until he gets his fifth-wheel functional and then turn it over to whatever 03:31:00they end up deciding to do with it.

SS: Have you been going over the ropes with him recently?

TC: Not really, but he's worked with me up here before a couple summers.

SS: Oh, okay so he knows some things about the place.

TC: Mm-hmm.

SS: Okay, gotcha.

TC: He's not entirely in the dark. Plus, I've been spending a lot of overtime with Doug Fairrington, our temporary, not temporary but part-time helper. He's here part-time year-round, fortunately. I've spent a lot of time training him and orienting him with program of maintenance. Where all the components are, the plans, and the specs and locations of all the mechanical components and all that kind of stuff. He'll be able to carry over a lot of that to Rod, and in lieu of that they have my phone number on my smartphone.

SS: I get the feeling you'll be contacted a few times.

TC: Yeah. You just can't spell all that out in the drop of a hat. It just ain't going to happen. Not for me. I can't get it all out.

SS: Well, there'll be some growing pains for a while because continuity is lost and certain things. You can't teach everything. People have to learn on their own.

TC: There's a lot of stuff that takes a trigger. I can foresee them calling me on the phone and saying Terry we got-and I'll say, oh yeah, I forgot to tell you about that one [laughs]. That kind of thing.

SS: I'm sure that will happen a lot.

TC: It just doesn't come to mind until after the fact.

SS: How does it feel to be leaving a place like the Andrews which has had such a profound legacy impact on its operations and character, meaning you? This has 03:33:00been your life for a big part of your life for so long.

TC: Yeah.

SS: And you made a big impact. How does it feel to be contemplating leaving in a few days?

TC: It started off being like when I lost my wife. That's how bad it hurt. A lot of times my depression was just too strong and I'm the kind that when that hits I go to bed. That's my answer. I've spent a lot of bed time. Doug!

DOUG FAIRRINGTON: Hey!

TC: Here comes another question!

SS: Here comes another question about-we just talked about this guy Doug and he just walked in the door and now I'm going to do a psychological profile [laughs].

TC: Right [laughs].

SS: No, I'm going to turn the record off just for a sec here. Oh, actually, you know what I will do. I will not do that. Doug?

DF: You got your interview going.

SS: We're almost done. We're finishing up.

TC: Almost. Winding down.

SS: Doug you want to say something on the record about this guy for history's sake?

DF: I think you probably already covered the uniqueness of his presence here, that it's not just maintenance and repairs and building and construction and fabrication. It's art. You know the artistry of painting and trim and furniture. His thumbprints are all over this place and most of it folks don't even know that it was his because he just did it. It's going to be a passing era.

SS: Say a little bit about what he helped you do down at your church.

TC: How'd you find out about that?

SS: He told me about it. Because I called to get a hold of you. For the record, Doug, how do you spell your last name?

DF: Fairrington is F-A-I-R-R-I-N-G-T-O-N.

SS: For the transcriber who will do this. Okay, so go on.

DF: We actually honored him Sunday and his sister, Cathy, came down and we tried not to embarrass him too much.

TC: Yeah. I appreciate that.

SS: Now they'll save the embarrassment for tomorrow night.

DF: It wasn't too painful, was it?

TC: It wasn't too bad.

DF: But I just acknowledged that 20 years ago he led a group of volunteers to build an addition onto the church that we now have as classroom space and office space and kitchen. I didn't even know when I came to work here a year ago that TC was the hand that painted the mural on the men's bathroom wall with a 03:36:00passage, a Bible passage, on there.

SS: Are you talking about down at the church?

DF: Yeah, down at the church. Inside the-there was a window there and he made use of the-

SS: What Bible passage? I'm just curious.

DF: Yeah. Habakkuk 3:19, do you remember?

TC: That rings a bell. I bet that's it.

DF: I'll have to look at it.

SS: Although I would have just had something more simple that said this too will pass [laughs].

DF: [Laughs] Yeah. There you go. But one of the things that we mentioned is you know our church is doing well now. We're mostly full.

TC: Yeah.

DF: We have days that are standing-room only. I just mentioned that he and one of the elders 20 years ago while they were building that place would also pray and pray over the facility and we're experiencing the fruit of those prayers. He's leaving quite a legacy. He's done well. And not done yet. He's finishing strong.

TC: We're just going through another-

SS: He's finishing strong with this, because what he's doing today is actually really important.

DF: Yeah.

SS: I mean this has been a long, 3 1/2, 3 hour and 40-minute interview and these are part of the legacies you leave. Most people don't get a chance to do something like this. This will be down, transcribed, and put in an archive and there you go.

DF: Well, most maintenance managers of their companies haven't spent 30 years, 35 years developing something from the ground up. They've been there 5 years or 10 years and when they hired on it was already there. They're just there as maintenance. You don't look at that person as a part of the history, you know, so much as you would somebody like Terry. This was all, I don't know if you were around when this was a field and a bunch of, they called it ghetto in the meadow.

SS: I know the history, but I wasn't here.

DF: Yeah. Well, he was here.

SS: Yeah, I know.

DF: He's one of the reasons why it's not a ghetto in the meadow any more, a bunch of mobile homes that the floor is rotting through. There's buildings here and you know he's been able to see through that.

SS: Even during the ghetto in the meadow you were into survival.

DF: Exactly.

SS: We talked about that early on, too.

DF: Exactly.

SS: Yeah and the artistic thing I mean I talked with him.

DF: It's unique.

SS: I've met other people similar to, they have a dual thing like that, but I mean it's not typical. Let's put it that way. It's not typical.

DF: They may not be in one place for so many years to have long enough to be able to leave such a broad-stroked impact in history.

SS: Exactly. The Andrews has its own unique strength as a scientific research site which doesn't always happen even in that context. They either get discontinued, they get defunded, the leadership quits/leaves. You don't have the legacy factor or the continuity where somebody like Terry and all the other people in their different facets can leave their stamp on a place.

DF: We have artists that come here, and we have contractors that come here and people who come to do repairs and do maintenance and you know contractors, but very few of them are doing all of those at the same time in one location.

SS: We were just talking about science. Even science has become so specialized that people don't talk across the disciplines. Just like Terry, you know, growing up where he did in his dad's shop and jack-of-all-trades, a lot of 03:40:00people even in the construction industry they don't become that anymore. They become specialists.

TC: Specialists in one field.

DF: Again, what's unique about this address is I've got a friend that is a musician, concert musician, and has a construction company and is an artist. But he goes to work in one place and builds something. He goes home and writes music. Goes someplace else and performs and then goes over here and paints something. They're not connected, where Terry's lived here, served here, and done all that right here. That's unique. Because you can see the artistry in the 03:41:00construction. You might build something and then paint the wall with a mural. Matter of fact, we were talking the other day and he goes, yeah, I painted a mural on a church wall in Elgin, Oregon. It was so many years ago he didn't remember what town it was. I got on the computer and pulled up a map and he was somewhere over in southeast Oregon.

TC: Northeast.

DF: Yeah, northeast Oregon. A former employee here moved there to pastor a church and called him like 25 years ago, maybe? Who knows. Called him and said hey, come make this wall look nice. You can go right now on Google Earth, drop on main street in Elgin, Oregon and do a, you know, a scan of the town and see 03:42:00that wall that he painted on the side of their building.

TC: The mural's still there. I'm kind of surprised.

SS: Wow.

DF: There on Main Street.

SS: That's pretty amazing, man.

DF: I remember it because I hunt over there. I drive through Elgin. I've seen that mural on that wall.

SS: And now you know.

DF: I said are you serious? You painted that!

SS: I know that guy!

DF: Anyway-

SS: How cool.

DF: Off the record.

SS: Yeah, here, I'll turn it off [recording stops and starts again]. Continue on with how you feel about leaving again. Go ahead with that. Finish that thought.

TC: Like I said it was like when I lost my wife. It was very difficult at first.

SS: So, you've been grieving for a while.

TC: I've been grieving, yeah, ever since I actually made the commitment.

SS: When was that?

TC: Probably 3, 4 months ago I actually, I mean I made the commitment back in May when I went ahead and made the appointment for PERS [State of Oregon 03:43:00retirement system] and Social Security and all of that, but it didn't really kick in until about 3 months ago was when Social Security actually kicked in and that became more of a reality. And, of course, going ahead and telling my sister, yeah, I'll go ahead and come up. I could use the help. I knew then-

SS: It was real.

TC: It's real. It's over. It's hard to accept at first. It was very difficult. That's about all I can say. It's just very difficult. It's a culture shock, kind of.

SS: Even though you're going back to your original culture, right?

TC: Right.

SS: Well, over 35/40 years you've become a different person to some degree.

TC: Yeah.

SS: You're still a member of that family and community, but you're also an 03:44:00Oregonian. You're an Andrew-ian.

TC: Yeah, that's what I was going to say about the culture shock going back down south. Well I've learned to be like the Oregonian to respect personal space.

SS: Ah, okay.

TC: Oregonians personal space is about 3 feet. In Louisiana personal space is only 3", in your face friendly. That's going to take a little adjusting. It's very different.

SS: What would you say are the favorite memories that you have about this?

TC: Oh, my word.

SS: I mean you've mentioned a lot, but something maybe you haven't talked about. Something, some poignant thing, something that was important and maybe in a way that I couldn't foresee when I was putting these questions together.

TC: I think your senses are very different here. The things you smell, the 03:45:00things you hear, and the things you feel that makes your skin tingle are completely different than which you experience in the valley or in Louisiana. There's something about the cleanliness of being in the forest. It's totally different than anywhere else. The little fairyland places in the old-growth forest that makes you want to bow down and worship feeling. You feel there's almost like the trees could talk, if they wanted.

SS: You're in the presence of-

TC: Something real.

SS: The spirits, the gods, whatever you want to describe it as.

TC: Yeah, whatever you want to call it. It's very unique. It has its own history, its own life. I'm going to miss it, but there's things similar to that down in the National Norest in Louisiana, you know. Whispering pines.

SS: The cypress swamps?

TC: Yep, the cypress swamps.

SS: What are you looking forward to the most about getting back there? What's going to be the most fun or cool thing about going back to your homeland, based on not only your family but certainly the cultural, the cuisine, what have you?

TC: Yeah, it's a little bit of everything like that, because it's something my senses haven't tasted, really, in 40 years. A good 40 years, the smells, the 03:47:00sounds, the feelings, the people. Looking at the flat land, the swampland, the short trees. A giant tree down there is only 100' tall.

SS: The pines, usually, right?

TC: Yeah.

SS: Wow. Now, your mother, you're going to be living with your mom?

TC: Yep. Be living with Mom and my sister and I'm looking forward to that with fear and trepidation.

CC: [Laughs] I heard that.

TC: Oh, you caught that?

SS: Well, that's normal Cathy.

CC: Oh yeah. Same on my side, too.

SS: Yeah, it'll be like all the sibling stuff you thought you buried 40 years 03:48:00ago is going to come back [laughs].

TC: [Laughs] Right.

CC: Uh-oh.

TC: Yeah, I'm looking forward that really. I'll have a family again after losing my wife. Looking forward to that aspect. New friends.

SS: Now, do you plan on continuing your art and craftsmanship in any particular way upon your return to Louisiana? I'm sure you will but you want to kind of give me your thoughts and ideas about keeping going in that kind of area?

TC: That's a longer-range hope that I've had for a long time. I want to dabble in oil painting and watercolor. I've been most of my artwork, 90% of my artwork has been acrylic and I want to, now that I'm on easy street, so to speak, I want 03:49:00to go ahead and spend the money for artist paints.

SS: Well, there you go.

TC: And give it a whirl.

SS: Why not?

TC: Yeah. And hobbies. I'm downscaling my sizes in building models which makes it even more of a challenge. Those great big models in the shop, that's nothing compared to making the little ones from scratch.

SS: Especially when you're talking about the fine points of painting and all that.

TC: Yeah, when you start working on the details you gotta pull out the magnifying glass.

SS: So, Cathy, what if you guys come home and he's painted murals all over your family home?

CC: I would love that! We have one. A little bathroom we did one.

TC: The half bath they call them, I put a mural on that one, three-sided.

CC: The year our dad was dying he did that.

TC: A kind of a landscape mural.

CC: I want an ocean mural in the other bathroom.

TC: Yeah, I know. We'll see [laughs].

CC: [Laughs].

SS: So, in terms of your presence at the Andrews and amongst the McKenzie River Valley community how would you like to most be remembered?

TC: Nothing fancy. Just simple. I came, I saw, and conquered. Period.

SS: Said Julius Caesar.

TC: I gave the Andrews my heart and soul and I don't regret a minute of it. I gave them 120% for many, many years and I don't regret a minute of it. It's been a beautiful trip the whole, whole time. Even the nightmares.

SS: That's a cool way of looking at it. Now, are there any other people that we haven't talked about, or any other that you would want to make a comment on about their presence that we didn't talk about? You talked about Fred and you talked about John. You mentioned Al briefly, Al Levno.

TC: Yep, Al Levno. You know those critical people I could have made none of the stuff happen without their support, their help and their support. Al Levno, Art McKee, Fred Swanson... Jerry Franklin not so much because he was mostly focused on the academics you know while we were busy with all the other fun stuff. Yeah, John Moreau, Craig Creel, Greg Downing, who's still with us. All those people. The seasonal help that I've had. Our regular staff down at the office: Kathy Keable.

SS: I miss Kathy already. You got a nice person to replace her, but still Kathy was cool.

TC: I know.

SS: She was cool.

TC: Oh yeah. Yeah. They were very good at taking care of me. They did a great job. Mark [Schulze], to say the least. What a dynamic young man.

SS: He replaced Kari, right? Kari O'Connell was here for a few years.

TC: Yep.