Hiroshi Ogawa Oral History Interview, March 8, 2008

 EU: Hiroshi, to get started with, could you tell us where you were born and where you grew up?

HO: I was born in Pasadena in 1941-- Pasadena, California. And then as, uh, before the war and then in nine-, in February of, or March of, uh, '42 when I was four months to six months old we went to Sanita Race Track and were forced 00:01:00there. And then for the next four years after that we were at Gila Bend, Arizona at camp.

EU: At camp. You said you were born, you grew up in Pasadena?

HO: Yes.

EU: What were your parents doing?

HO: Well, my mom was a house wife. I had an older brother and sister. And my father worked as a servant and gardener for, uh, rich, richer people in San Marino, which was an adjacent community. And basically worked, not as a laborer, but as a, as a gardener, uh, caretaker. Of homes in San Marino.

EU: Now did your parents come from Japan? Were they the immigrant generation?

HO: My father came in 1917 when he was nineteen years old. Married and had a child who both passed away because of the Spanish influenza.

EU: You said both passed away?

HO: Yeah.

EU: The son and...

HO: No the daughter and the wife.

EU: Okay.

HO: And then he married my mom, uh, 1932. And, uh, she was born in Sacramento, 00:03:00uh, 1913. And then was raised in Japan. Her mother passed away and the father, her father, had four children of which he decided he couldn't take care of. And so he shipped them all back to uncles and aunts back in Japan. And he, and they, they raised my mom and uncles and aunts in Japan 'til, I'd say, 1935ish.

EU: Do you know what part of Japan?

HO: Hiroshima.

[EO] In Hiroshima.

HO: Yeah. My dad is from Hiroshima. A place called Shimofukawa. And my mom she 00:04:00was sent back and she stayed in Yamaguchi-ken with an aunt 'til she was nineteen. And then came back as a picture bride and married my dad.

EU: Okay. So, I was going to ask, did they know each other before or...?

HO: No.

[In unison] EU: It was an arranged marriage then. HO: It was an arranged marriage.

HO: Picture bride. And then, let's see, my sister was born in '34, my brother in '35, and I was born in '41.

EU: K. So your father was a gardener and a caretaker and...?

HO: Yes. And, uh...

EU: And where they lived - I mean, San Marino, Pasadena - was there a Japanese-American community then?

HO: Yes, there was a good community there of Japanese there and, uh, in 00:05:00Pasadena. A number of them worked as, I could say, gardeners or man servants, I guess. And things of that nature. San Marino was a very nice, uh, well-to-do neighborhood and there seemed to be enough people who would pay for that type of service.

[EO] So was there like a Buddhist church or, I mean a...

HO: There was no Buddhist church...

EU: ...like a Buddhist temple.

HO: ...there was no Buddhist temple at that time. Um, there was one in Los Angeles. It was after the war that my father, in his effort to build a more 00:06:00traditional Japanese life, um, in many ways, uh, helped start the Pasadena Buddhist temple.

EU: Maybe we can get back to that when...

HO: Okay.

EU: Okay. Um... So, you were just a baby though when your family was sent to the camps?

HO: Right. I was basically six months 'til almost five years old when I left. So I was, I was just a little kid. And some place in there I'm sure you'll ask me what do I remember. And because of my age I don't...there aren't a whole lot of memories. I do have some, some memories. And most of them were good in the sense 00:07:00that, uh, I got to play a lot with other little kids. And, uh, there was no day care center, but the whole thing is all the older ladies - bachauns I called them - just watched over us. So it was a very, I want to say carefree for the little kids. A carefree life of which we played a lot. And I think because of our age we didn't really, uh, comprehend the terrible condition that were 00:08:00existing all around us as our parents and the older people tried to shield us from that as much as possible.

EU: Uh-huh. 'Cause, um, you said you were at Gila Bend, which...

HO: Yes.

EU: ...was on, was that on a reservation?

HO: Yes it was, yeah it's on a reservation, uh, of which is still is a reservation. I believe it's the Hopi. Or it could be the Navajo reservation.

EU: Do you have any memories of getting off, out of the camps into the reservation or...?

HO: I remember the reservation. And I do remember...the big thing is, it was brought to my light a-, because of the barbed wire fences. Because my sister, uh, oh, I guess fell and tripped and, uh, against the barbed wire fence and cut 00:09:00herself really bad on the leg. Of which she still had scars until, well I want to say 'til she was ten, fifteen years old as I remember. But I just remember that it was very hot, desert like. And we just played in the sand and that's what we did.

EU: Did your parents, or your brothers and sis-, brother and sister, talk about, since they were a little bit older, did they talk about the camp?

HO: We haven't...really talked that much about it. Um. My sister who was just recently visiting, visiting here, uh, was talking about what a happy baby I was. 00:10:00Uh, and I think that's just attributed to the fact that all the older people tried to keep it as stress free and protect all the younger kids as much as they could. Um. And, so, my memories are just being able to play all the time.

EU: In your family, did you speak Japanese? Or English?

HO: My parents spoke Japanese all the time. And the three of us we all went to Japanese school and we all do have some, uh, knowledge or some ability to speak 00:11:00Japanese. But, uh, it was not, I mean, emphasized to speak Japanese all the time. In that I think my parents realized at that time that it was better that we can speak English so that we can go on to college and things like that. So, uh, Japanese was not, as a language, was not emphasized real, real strongly.

EU: Okay. Do you what your parents did during those years in the camp? Did they have jobs?

HO: My father was a cook. Not a very good cook, but he was a cook. [laughs]

EU: [laughs]

HO: And I think my mother, um, I never heard her say she had a job, I think 00:12:00mainly because I was still a baby that they didn't assign her a job. But, um, yeah, my father, that was his main job was to be a cook. I do remember him talking about the awful food that they gave them for them to cook. That it really wasn't what Japanese ate. [laughs] So, yeah, it's a... Yeah, I don't know. It was just this huge concentration camps of which people had different 00:13:00duties and I think people did 'em. They weren't, you know, there wasn't a good job or a bad job. There was just something that had to be done and they just, you know, disciplined their mind to do it.

EU: Did other, did you have an extended family? Did you all go together to the same camp?

HO: Uh. We didn't all go, um, my, my father's brother and his family also went to Gila Bend. And my, my mom's brother, Yutaka, also went there, but then he was quickly transferred to Tuley Lake.

EU: Okay, and what was his full name?

HO: Yutaka Oda.

EU: K.

HO: And he, uh, he was one of those "no-no" boys and I think that's part of the 00:14:00reason they transferred him to, to, uh, Tuley Lake, because they felt he was one of those dissidents.

EU: Can you talk a little, explain about the "no-nos"? And did your father also...?

HO: Well, my father wasn't a citizen. Okay. And so, yeah it was no use asking him, because I'm sure not being a citizen, I mean, he couldn't, uh, he couldn't disavow his allegiance to the United States and things like that. But I think my 00:15:00parents, and there were a whole lot of different people - [coughs] were of that feeling that they were being terribly wronged. [coughs] And, um, so throughout their lifetime, um, as far as my father, he was...he never embraced or never followed what the JACL wanted.

EU: That was the Japanese-American Citizens' League?

HO: League. Yeah. Of which, um, I can't even think of his name now. He was the wheeler-dealer of...getting us into camps and doing all these different things. 00:16:00Of which he felt was the best way for Japanese-Americans. He was, he was the JACL leader I guess. And, uh, and so my parents and a whole lot of different families were just totally turned off by the organization and their leadership.

EU: Your uncle though, he was "no-no" and so he, they sent him up to Tuley Lake.

HO: Right. And then after the war he and his wife were, in '45 they were shipped to Japan. He lost his, uh, U.S. citizenship. And then, uh, he went back to 00:17:00Japan. It was a very difficult struggle at the beginning. Well, Japan was in a big struggle at that time as it was-- '45, '46. But he got a job, uh, working for the government.

EU: The Japanese government?

HO: No, the U.S. government.

EU: The occupation huh?

HO: Yeah, the occupation. And he became, oh, I want to say a translator. And, uh, worked in, I don't know, what was it called? Classified? Or something that sort a up there. And I remember him laughing about, "They, yeah, they take away my citizenship and this and this and then I get to Japan and after a couple years I get a job working for the U.S. government in a classified position. Now, 00:18:00is that dumb!?" [laughs]

EU: [laughs]

HO: But because of that, um, and I think he saw how bad it was in Japan - in the occupation and everything like that - he worked himself into the good graces of some of the top people, of which they made it possible for him to regain his U.S. citizenship and he came back to the United States in the early 50s. So, uh, but yeah, he, because of his decision for him to, um, I'm not really sure how the wordings for the 27th and 28th questions were. But he was, he was, you know, 00:19:00one of a number of people who said, "no, they won't join the army," and "no they will not renounce the Japanese citiz-," oh, "no, they will not support the U.S.," something of that nature.

EU: Yeah, I'm trying to think-- those were the loyalty oaths.

HO: Yeah, the loyalty oaths.

EU: That they had to sign in the camps. And I think they had to renounce, like, loyalty to the emperor or something like that.

HO: Yeah.

EU: Did your parents or your uncle and aunt, I mean, did they show anger? Or, how did they feel about this? And did that change over the year as they got older?

HO: Um, my father really never showed anger. He did, uh, I think he used to...I 00:20:00never really saw it at the dinner table or interaction with him in much of any ways. When he would talk with different friends and things like that I would hear more or less all of them denouncing the government and things like that. But they said it, in some ways, quietly. And, uh...you know, it's just, um, I think my father showed his, well, not anger, but his feelings the most when he told me oh, when I was over twenty-one anyway, in a sense that, "If it's 00:21:00possible," well, "never trust the U.S. government. Never trust the U.S. president." Which at that time was the grand leader F.D.R. And, you know, and I remember just asking a neighbor friend down the way, we were just talking, and I said something about, "Do you, what do you think of F.D.R.?" And he says, "Oh, he was a great president." And I said, "Well, my father told me that he wasn't. That he was just so totally...." And I said, "And he's the one who signed 9066." You know. [laughs] And, so... [laughs]

EU: Yeah, 9066 was the...

HO: Bill that...

EU: ...bill that put the...

[In unison] HO: Japanese in the camps. EU: Japanese in the camps.

HO: Right. And so, [laughs]... Yeah, uh, my father had a completely different look of the U.S., the government, the presidency, and, and, uh, you know, he did say, you know, "And if possible, try not to pay income tax." [laughs]

EU: [laughs]

HO: But everybody says that so, you know. [laughs] But he, uh, I think he said it in a soft way just as sort of advice. And so he didn't show anger at that time. It was just, you know, "You're my son and you should listen to this." That, "Never trust them," you know, "you're getting involved in here. Never trust them." You know. [laughs]

EU: Yeah. What about your uncle? How, um, over the years were you able to talk 00:23:00to you uncle about his experiences in the camps and in Japan and so forth?

HO: Um, he tried not to talk to me about it. And I, you know, I did over, only recently in the last five years, as I visit him once or twice a year. that he would talk a little bit about it. But... He was, I mean, the whole war and the camp totally, uh, I can't say ruined his life, but it really changed his life, because, uh, at that time he was going to Cal Tech. And he was working to become 00:24:00an engineer. Of which in the late 50s when he was able to come back to the United States he was able to get a job as an engineer. But from 1941 to, let's say, '55 - for about a fifteen year period there - his whole life was in turmoil from his selected endeavors of, you know, working and living in the United States as an engineer. And he... He has shown, at the end of his life, you know, 00:25:00some anger and bitterness, but he always tried to be more positive and he held whatever pains he had within himself. And, you know, um... But I think that's the whole thing that, um, it's been impressed upon me ever since I was little, but, uh, you know, our parents, and a whole lot of other parents, they all used to say, uh, use the word gaman-- gaman shinasai. You know, just, uh, hold it in within you. and, uh, I think, you know, that is what my uncle did his whole life, except little cracks in the armor when I'd try to dig things out of him.

EU: After you family came out of the camps you went back to Pasadena?

HO: Yes, we went back to Pasadena. Well, first of all, I mean, it's a strange situation [laughs], I think about it. Like, my father was, oh, let's say forty-seven, forty-eight when he, when they say, "Okay." And so, you know, what do you do? So he scrambled and we, there was this, um, I guess sort of job. It was being a migrant farm picking, uh, fruit picking, uh, jobs and things more or less from I want to say Texas to Colorado and we were stationed in Colorado. And I do remember that a lot more and that, you know, we lived in I guess you call 00:27:00them cold water flats. They were just concrete floors with cold water, outhouses. And, uh, it was in a place called Rocky Ford. And, uh, that's where we stayed for about, well I want to say maybe close to a year, but I'd say six months until he saved enough money so that he could buy...he bought a '33 Model T Ford. And drove over all the way back to Pasadena. Then after he got things settled there we all, the three of us, well my mom and the three kids, we all came on the train from Colorado to L.A.. And so then we live in Pasadena from 00:28:00about '46 on.

EU: You had mentioned about the community then that your father helped reestablish. The community traditional...

HO: Yeah, well I think it was more traditional. He helped start and find the Pasadena Buddhist Temple. That was about forty, I want to say '48, '47. And, uh, the minister from Los Angeles would come. Reverend Hiashima. Anyway, he, and, uh, around 1951 I believe they, he was able to, oh I guess he used to go every 00:29:00night and try and raise funds to build the building and I think in 1951 they broke ground and built the first Pasadena Buddhist Temple. And then, uh, I don't know, it was probably around 1965, uh, it became too small and they built another bigger temple at its present location now, which it's been there for forty or so.

EU: Your father, was he a priest? Or...?

HO: No, he, he was a, he was not a priest, but he [sighs], I want to say a 00:30:00religious man. And, uh, he believed in trying to continue different traditional things as, oh, I want to say tea ceremony, flower arranging, uh, and uh, through the Buddhist temple and uh... Yeah, he was more, I want to say, the old school and so, and he's considered an Issei, while all the younger...people, the Nisei were ready to just try and assimilate and become model American citizens. And I 00:31:00think we see it still everywhere in all these different communities of each immigrant group that comes that there is a certain group of people that want to hold on to their old cultural and traditional things, of which that was my father. While the other group want to be more American. You know. And so our family just happens to fall into the more old traditional group.

EU: Uh-huh. Do you think that background and the Buddhist background had an impact on the way that they reacted to the camp, to the incarceration there?

HO: Um. [short pause] I don't know really. Um. I do think, um, I think before 00:32:00the war and before the incarceration I think my father, you know, you have three kids and got a pretty good job and things are going well, I think he was sort of seeking perhaps in some ways the American dream. But when you're forty-ish or forty-five-ish and sent away into desolation of Gila Bend that your opinions and your optimism sort of change.

EU: Yeah. Were your parents still alive during the redress? Were they able to...?

HO: No. My father passed away in '73 and my mom passed away in '76.

EU: So they never were able to receive that?

HO: No.

EU: The money.

HO: No. But the three of us, the children, we all did.

EU: You did.

HO: Yeah.

EU: What about your uncle? I wonder...?

HO: I don't know. I'm sure he did, but he never talked about it. I think in some ways he felt it was fully earned and [laughs] that it should be more. But, no, he never talked about it.

EU: Okay. All right, let's take a break.

HO: Okay.

EU: This is the end of Part 1.

HO: Okay.

EU: Hiroshi, could we talk a little bit now about your school? Where did you go to high school?

HO: I went to Jon Muir High School in Pasadena. Graduated in '59. And then, uh, I think, uh, going to school in Pasadena was a very wonderful experience, in that, um, it had a strong black community. Of which in many ways I was able to 00:35:00identify with, in that I feel the philosophy of the days in the 50s, especially among blacks in Pasadena was they just wanted to do anything they could to beat the man. The man being the U.S. government or the powers that be. And, uh, Pasadena I think was a very diverse community, of which a number of Japanese came back after camp to Pasadena. And so there were a number of Japanese there. 00:36:00Um. I remember us moving when we were, during the summer of, before my fourth grade class. We moved up toward El Tadina and I went to Jackson Elementary School, of which there were only, I was the only Japanese [laughs] and there was one other black kid, Tommy Hatch. And we hung around together being the only ethnic minorities in the whole school. But over time it quickly changed and became a lot more diversified.

EU: I mean, growing up then were you always involved in sort of a Japanese community? With...?

HO: Yeah, I was, well because of the Buddhist temple and my father's activism in 00:37:00being a part of it and he was the president I guess, of the Pasadena Buddhist Temple for, uh, I want to say eight years. And he was, you know, because of that, uh, all of us, the children, were quite involved with the temple. Also, we all had to go to Japanese school.

EU: This was Japanese language?

HO: Yeah. Japanese language. And, uh...

EU: Who taught that?

HO: A number of different people came in, in Pasadena. There was a Japanese school set up in Pasadena, oh, starting, I don't know, somewhere around '47, 00:38:00'48. It continued for a number of years. And I think now in Southern California, forty years later, fifty years later, sixty years later, that they're a lot more organized and, I don't know, for all I know they might be accredited. But in those days it was quite, uh, pretty loose.

EU: Uh-huh. Um, and did you go to college? Where did you go to college?

HO: I went, I went, I went, uh, in '59 I went to UC Santa Barbara. My sister 00:39:00went to Berkley and my brother went to USC.

EU: So your parents encouraged you or expected you to go to college?

HO: I think, yeah, more than encouraged, it was just a written, uh, unwritten rule that, "Yes, you will go to college." [laughs]

EU: So you never questioned that then?

HO: Yeah, I never questioned that. I do know though that, uh, my sister wanted me to go to Berkley. And, uh, I did apply, but once I got into Santa Barbara and went up to see it I realized, "Well, this seems like it's going to be a lot more fun." And so I went to Santa Barbara. [laughs slightly] And it was a very enjoyable, uh, you know, school time.

EU: What did you study? What was your major?

HO: I had, for a while I had a number of different majors-- I was in education, then I went into physical education, then I was thinking about finishing physical education and then going on to physical therapist. Uh, I was also an art major. And I finally finish in four years of, uh, a P.E. major, art minor. And then, uh, I did one year of graduate work at UC Santa Barbara and then I did one year at Long Beach State. Of which I'm still one course and a thesis short of getting a Masters. But I went into teaching after that and I was fortunate in 00:41:00being able to get a ceramics teaching position and coaching.

EU: In high school?

HO: In high school. In high school.

EU: Where was that? Where did you teach first?

HO: Uh, at La Serna High School in Whittier. Had a great program in ceramics and I taught for three years there. And, uh, in some ways built the program up from four sections to twelve sections.

EU: This was their ceramics program?

HO: Ceramics program. And, uh, I was the only teacher the first year and the third year we had three ceramics teachers. And, um... But it was, uh, it was a 00:42:00trying time, I want to say, '66, 7, '68, with the Vietnam issues and war issues and protests and things like that.

EU: Did you participate in this?

HO: I participated a very little, but I did march. So, um, after teaching and everything I decided that I, um, perhaps living in another country would be better. So, um...

EU: When you, before we leave the country, where, um, where did you first learn pottery?

HO: Uh, I studied pottery in, uh, I took my first class in '59 at UC Santa Barbara in college. Um...

EU: How did you start, I mean, had you an interest in that or...?

HO: Um, no, but, uh, I took the class. And, uh, I don't know, for some reason, I had, I had like a drawing class, a water color class, and a ceramics class that first year. And...the students that were in those classes, I mean, some of those students they could draw with a pen or pencil and make it look like a photograph. I mean, they were good. And then the painters were good and in the ceramics department, for some lucky thing, I was better than them. And so, 00:44:00[laughs] I emphasized ceramics in my art major, which eventually became a minor. But, uh, yeah, it, um, I think I continued to be in ceramics mainly because I felt that I was as good or better than most of the art students. And I was finding success in that area. Versus, uh, I remember later on taking a wood sculpture class...and, you know, I mean, different people, mixed medias and different art, art majors, I mean, I really felt they were really, really good. And, uh, but I was better than them in ceramics in some reason. And, so I guess 00:45:00that's why I stuck with that.

EU: What kind of ceramics did you do at that time?

HO: Well, I was just beginning and just learning to throw and make forms and, uh, at that time I was basically, pretty much trying to, uh, make functional pieces. And so, mugs, bowls, um, vases, and try to stretch yourself and make bigger pieces. But, uh, it was basically very fundamental. Um, I think, uh, clay as a medium was still, in some ways, in its infancy. And, uh, the teachers at that time, at Santa Barbara anyway, were only perhaps one or two steps ahead of 00:46:00the students. Um. Because it was still, I want to say, a pretty new subject matter at the university.

EU: It's, when you started teaching at the high school, when, you were athletics and arts. So two very different, two different fields.

HO: Uh, they're not very different because they're both non-academic. And I guess that's the whole thing, uh, I've never been strong in academics. [laughs]

EU: [laughs]

HO: So.

EU: I mean, when I went to high school I don't remember there being a ceramics teacher, much less three. And so, I mean, was this a new...? A whole new program?

HO: Well, in sixty, '65, when I got to the school, I think the ceramics program had been in existence for a couple years at that time. And, uh, you know, and I didn't really know very much about ceramics either-- I knew how to fire a kiln, and I knew how to make form, and work on the wheel, and talk about art. But, um, I think high school ceramics and college ceramics have come a long ways since those days. And, um, you know, there are a lot of people that are really very 00:48:00technical and they know a lot of stuff. In those days that wasn't quite emphasized.

EU: When, did you know at this point that ceramics was going to be your future? As opposed to teaching or...?

HO: No. I don't think so. Um. It was only after I went to Japan and studied at the university, studied religion at the university they said that, at the temple, that I should expand my awareness by learning calligraphy, flower arrangement, tea ceremony, pottery. And that sparked me so I started and I found out about cooperative and I joined the cooperative and, uh, started making pots. 00:49:00And then going around different places in Japan and seeing exhibits and everything I started to tend more toward wanting to become a potter. And I think it sort of had to do with the fact that I finished my studies in '71 and I had to go one more year in order to become a, I guess a certified, full-time minister back in America. But I realized that wasn't what I wanted to do or be. 00:50:00And so, I was leaning towards ceramics and when I came, well, I got married and when we came back from Japan that's what I did. I opened up a studio and started making pots.

EU: Why did you go to Japan? What was the appetence to go to Japan? In nineteen-sixty...?

HO: '69.

EU: ...nine.

HO: '69. Uh, there were many reasons. Um. I think Alex Haley's books and movie, uh, TV series Roots and come on at that time. Which inspired me to want to go back to Japan and check out my own roots. Um. I...had thought of going into the 00:51:00ministry, Buddhist, and so that was another thought that I would go back and study. And the war in Vietnam and the whole, I want to say, climate here was, um, very dissatisfying for me and I thought it was time to leave the country. And so I left thinking I'd never come back, but then after being there, oh, almost three years that, um, I got married and decided to go a different way and I came back.

EU: Where did you study? What university?

HO: Uh, at Ryukoku University in Kyoto. And, uh, at the temple grounds in Kyoto.

EU: What kind of university was that?

HO: It's a regular university, but it's known for its, uh, putting out Buddhist ministers. It's sort of, like some schools are known for their education department that puts out teachers. Well, Ryukoku University is a training ground for ministers and they have, I want to say, a strong department in Buddhist studies.

EU: So were you taking regular classes or also living at a temple? Or...?

HO: Yeah, no I wasn't, well, I did for a short time. But, uh, [cough in background] I, uh... I lost my train of thought. Um.

EU: So were you at the, a temple or...

HO: Oh, yeah.

EU: ...you lived in the dormitories?

HO: Uh, no. I lived outside and I taught English as a second language for my income. And I studied regular classes. Which were, all of them, way too difficult for me.

EU: This was in Japanese?

HO: Yeah. They didn't expect me to, you know, do all the work. But still it very, uh, it was difficult and it was disappointing to me that, uh, my 00:54:00scholarship was way, way below all the other students.

EU: So did you study then flower arrangement and calligraphy...?

HO: No. I did do a little calligraphy, but I didn't, uh, I didn't, uh, study...I just studied basically pottery.

EU: Did you have a sensei then? A teacher?

HO: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, he, well, he was in charge of the c-, uh, the cooperative. And he used to come maybe twice a month and talk or give demonstrations or give critiques of your work. It was a good situation. You know. There was sixteen of 00:55:00us in the cooperative and we used to just go on all the time. It was sort of a day-crew, night-crew in that certain housewives, they, they, uh, and myself, would go during the day. And all these businessmen or people that, women that had regular jobs, they would come at night. You know.

EU: Let me stop this for a minute.

EU: So you said you were studying in the day mostly with other women and...?

HO: Yeah, well, I was making pots. So. And then, you know, the business men. And 00:56:00then we would meet, it was usually on a Sunday that the sensei would come. His name was Azuma Ken. And he would, you know, talk and different things like that. But, uh...

EU: Was the kind of pottery you were making, was that different than, from what you had been doing in the United States?

HO: Uh, the techniques were very different. And...for the first year that I was there they had Shimpos, which, uh, [loud noise in background.] Keiko? [speaking to another person in the background] They had, uh, wheels, Shimpos, that they 00:57:00turned clockwise. And so I had to get used to that. Then they got Shimpos that would go both ways, the wheel. So that...

EU: So is that the opposite of America?

HO: Yeah.

EU: They were run counterclockwise?

HO: Yeah. Americans go counterclockwise and Japanese go clockwise. And so it was, uh, you know, it was a difference there. And, uh, you do everything by - well, I learned anyway - everybody throws off the hump. Off a large piece and you just make pots. Um. And so, yeah, um, it was a big learning curve I guess.

EU: Did you travel around visiting other kilns and seeing...?

HO: I did a little bit. I did more in 1986 when I went back for about, oh, I want to say a month and a half I went and visited a whole lot more. But, uh... Yeah, I remember, well there was this book Daniel Rhodes wrote and it's Tamba Pottery. And that's what, and you know, you go there. Um. It just excites you. It's like, "Wow!" You know. And it's a whole different world than American 00:59:00pottery. I mean, I do think, in some ways I have tried to build and establish this area right here - my studio and the kiln and the home and everything - very much like what I saw in Japan. And I think that's what, in some ways, causes potters, students, and things like that, that come to visit here, they go look at the kiln and everything. They just, it's a whole different concept than working in some huge concrete building with, you know, more of an industrial mindset, rather than a pottery lifestyle. And so, yeah, I was blown away by that 01:00:00there. You know. And that was 1970 I'd say.

EU: So you lived in Kyoto for how many years then?

HO: Uh, well, lived in Osaka. I lived in Osaka for a little over two, two and a half years. And, um, the studio was between Osaka and Kyoto and the university was in Kyoto. So I used to ride the rails like three times a week up to Kyoto. And it would take me about an hour, fifteen minutes to get to school every day. And then the studio, I mean, on the way back I would stop. I had one friend, uh, 01:01:00she was a secretary at the English school I taught at. She was also in the pottery cooperative. And so, uh, she would, we would try to meet maybe once or twice a week. So she would be wondering when I was going and I'd say, "Oh, I'll go after classes." I'd be there at two o'clock or something. So we would make pots together and everything. And, let's see, it nineteen, 1971 she, she and her husband went to New Zealand. And she, and he was studying to get his PhD and she 01:02:00was working out of a pottery studio there. When we went to visit she, um, she was living there. And we went to her studio and I saw all these New Zealand potters. It was more similar to Japanese way of pottery than the American way. So it was very, very nice. Since that time she has been here a couple times and fired my kiln. Yeah, we've kept, uh, letter writing communication for close to forty years now. [laughs]

EU: So when you talk about the Japanese, I mean, c-, maybe we could give like visual picture for the people that are listening. 'Cause we're sitting now, why 01:03:00don't you describe your studio.

HO: Oh, it's ostentatious this studio. The fire burnt down this, my old studio, which I really loved because I think people who came here could see the struggle of being a potter. [laughs] And now you come in and, "Wow, this guy's got it made. He must be a trust fund baby or something." [laughs hard] Of which I sort of am because I get, I've received so many donations from everyone to build this, you know.

EU: Yeah. The fire was in, uh, that was 2003?

HO: 2003, yes. So it's been, well it's four and a half years. It will be five years this October.

EU: So you lost your old studio?

HO: Yeah.

EU: Everything at that.

HO: Yeah. Yeah, all my books, all the pots. All my poetry that I once wrote. [laughs] Yeah, I lost, um, different things-- photographs and images that I can't, you know, replace. But, uh, the books, I've received a couple of box loads of books. All those books up there. [gestures towards some books in his studio] I don't know if you've heard of him-- his name is Jack Troy. He's this wonderful potter. Uh, and he, he sent me all these books of his that he had more than one copy of. And they were all the same books that I had lost. And Ceramics 01:05:00Monthly sent me all those [coughs] magazines, I think it was from, from 1986, back to 1986, they sent me all their magazines for free. And Studio Pottery did the same thing. So, I, so [laughs], uh, you know, I got all my, you know, quite a bit anyway. And, um, but as far as the studio, I think people have asked, what did I learn in Japan. And I always say that I feel the biggest thing I learned about Japan was use of space. There were sixteen of us in this cooperative, of which, oh, I don't know what the square footage would have been, but it was 01:06:00like, uh, I want to say five-hundred square feet. And, uh, that's not a lot of space. But usually there'd only be about four or five of us there at a time anyway, so [coughs] it wasn't bad. But to manage all the pots and keep some sort of rotation going of work they did it this way [moves to demonstrate]. We had boards and we just made it on a board [demonstrating something] and then we pushed the board in on these racks.

Well, in America you have things like this [gestures to something in his studio]-- you have cabinets. And so you put your pot in there, but on one shelf you could put maybe six pots there. But in that situation, because you would put 01:07:00another rack up so you could put boards on, you could put six boards of six pots on each. And, um, they had other ways of doing things that were, and they worked up and down, not spread out as, because in America we all have so much space it seems, we just keep on extending it. And so, um, when I was in Carmel Valley I had at one point six people working for us and I had three kilns and all of that was in basically four-hundred square feet. Like a twenty-by-twenty. And so, um, I think that's where my training paid off, in that I could have all these people 01:08:00on, you know, out with the wheel, what do they call it? Sweat shop [unintelligible - laughs] Each potter got their two and a half feet of space, you know? [laughs] But, uh, and so this studio has a lot more space and so I'm a little bit indulgent. And I have a fireplace that's right in the middle. Of which, in Japan they do have little fireplaces, but it's right on the ground right in the middle. So...

EU: And then attached to this is your, um, the gallery?

HO: Yes. Yeah. And there are some or maybe, maybe, maybe many in Japan where 01:09:00they have some sort of showroom. And this showroom is huge compared to any showrooms that are usually available in Japan or even the states. But that had two fold purpose in that I do use half of it for about seven, eight months out of the year during the fires where the firing participants, the potters, stay.

EU: Oh.

HO: So, yeah, we put mattresses on the floor and four or five potters sleep in that space there. Um...

EU: I remember when I heard about the fire here in 2003 and how, could you talk 01:10:00a little bit about how you rebuilt and how the pottery community in Oregon help?

HO: Um. Well, um... Yeah, um, as the firing was, fire was burning, and I just sort of looked at it. I guess I was very stoic. I didn't break down and cry or anything. It was just something. And I just said, "Well, I'll just have to rebuild." And there were potters here at that time and they were quite taken aback that I would be so stoic. But I said, "Well, what is there to do?" I mean, 01:11:00you know, crying isn't going to help. [laughs]

EU: They were here wh-, you were doing firing at the time?

HO: We were getting ready to do a firing.

EU: But that didn't cause the fire?

HO: No, that didn't cause the fire. No. And so, uh, I called a few people and, uh, told them what happened. And within, within a week, uh, I had, uh, received over twenty-thousand dollars in donations. And then, uh, that same weekend - the fire was on a Thursday - and that weekend, Saturday, Sunday, was Clay Fest up in 01:12:00Eugene. And this one potter friend, Don Clark, wrote a letter to Ceramics Monthly. So he told them what happened and that I didn't have any insurance [laughs], "so if you have anything, please make a donation." So I got money from a whole vast cross section of potters from the United States. And then, uh, you know, the Japanese-American community up in Eugene, um, I don't know, maybe did something. Twisted their arms, forced them to give me, make 'em give me, make 'em give 'em money. [laughs] But then I had a group down in Carmel Valley that I 01:13:00showed with all the time for the past twenty-eight years now. But, uh, they got together. So all these people raised different amounts of money. The local community here, they had a benefit concert, dinner, concert, and auction.

EU: It was here in Elkton?

HO: Yeah. And so, uh, Marty, Marty was able to contribute, more or less the profits from that night. He contributed like, oh, I don't know, I want to say like fifteen-hundred. The concert, they just had a glass bucket, you know, people put money in there. And that raised, I don't know, three-thousand, 01:14:00four-thousand dollars. Um. I mean people were so generous, there was this one friend, anyway [laughs], uh, he just pulled five one-hundred dollar bills and went like this [gestures] and put them in there. [laughs] You know? And, uh, so everybody was quite generous. I mean, the local Elkton community, the Eugene people, the Carmel Valley people. And, uh, yeah, I was able to, um, I received, oh, it was over fifty-thousand dollars. And the fire was October 10th, and I'd say by November 25th I had, let's say, close to fifty-thousand dollars. The 01:15:00insurance company gave me fourteen-thousand dollars for the destruction of an out-building. [laughs]

EU: That's what they...huh...

HO: [laughs] And so, uh, and then, uh, so, you know, I was planning on just putting up in some ways, at the beginning - the first week as we were cleaning everything all up and everything - some sort of lean-to that I could just put together, pound together, and it'll work. You know, and, but after getting that much money and then Ken Nagao drew up the plans.

EU: He's an architect from Eugene?

HO: Yeah. Yeah. And he drew up the plans and did it for free and, uh, Jeff Smith, the guy that helped build this place, he looked at it and he says, "Oh, yeah, this, we could do this. This really sturdy and this and this...." And he liked the design with the Dutch hip roof that they call it.

EU: But it looks very much like a Japanese farm house or...

HO: Yeah, well I asked Jeff, I said, "How come they call this a Dutch hip roof?" I said, "Because the Japanese have the same sort of roofs and stuff." And he says, "I don't know." [laughs] But, uh, so, um, yeah we went in to the, whatever it is, the city planner and we submitted the plans and they looked at them. And 01:17:00we had our permit, I don't know, within half an hour. And Jeff was saying, "Yeah, the only reason, usually they don't do this here in Roseburg." [laughs] He says, "It could take a week or two weeks." But, you know, "Most of the plans," he says, "that I submit, you know, they're hand drawn by me." [laughs] He says, "But this is a real professional job." [laughs] And so they just looked at it and they, boom. You know, and they gave me a permit and so, uh, we started building this. And, uh, it...it cost more than what I hoped. And, uh, spent way over budget, but, uh, got it finished. Yeah, I received a loan from CERF-- 01:18:00that's, uh, Craft Emergency Relief Fund. And they gave me an eight-thousand dollar loan of which I have since paid back. And I did take out a home equity loan. Which was too bad, because the house was all paid for. [laughs] And so now I got house payments again. Yeah, but this got built and so that was good.

EU: So within how many months then were you back up making pots and...?

HO: Um, well, it took about...eight months to finish building this, but right at that time, in June I guess, I came down with staph infection. And so I was 01:19:00hospitalized for nine days. And ran up this huge hospital bill. Um, and, uh... And I think I had my first firing, after everything was complete, around one year-- September, October the following year. And in some ways my, my, uh, I want to say my health recovery has been really slow, but I think it's only been in the last, really last, since this year, last three months have I felt like 01:20:00I'm finally back where I used to be. You know, four years ago. So that held up the progress a little bit. You know. But other than that. So.

EU: All right, let's take a break.

HO: Okay.

EU: This will be the end of Part 3 then.

HO: Oh. Okay.

EU: Hiroshi, let's jump back a little bit to Japan. I believe it was in Japan where you met Keiko?

HO: Yes. I met her on the northern island-- we were both traveling on our own. And, uh, we met, uh...as we were each watching a sunset.

EU: Uh-huh. This was in Hokkaido?

HO: In Hokkaido. And then, uh, on the way back we, it was about an hour hike back to the youth hostel and we talked. And we were on the same trail as far as going from youth hostel to youth hostel and seeing different places. And we met and then, uh, about a year later we got married.

EU: Uh-huh. Were you married here or in Japan?

HO: In Japan.

EU: In Japan.

HO: Yeah.

EU: Where's Keiko from?

HO: She's from Tokugawa Muda. Which is a real country village. Way deep in the 01:22:00heart of Nada. And, uh, and then she has, uh, the damn, they built a damn in her area, of which it eliminated their house. And so they had to moved to Nada City. And that's where she finished high school and, uh, started working at that time. Um. You know, we got married in October 1970.

EU: Uh-huh. And did you, did you live then in Japan or did you come directly...?

HO: We lived in Japan for two more years and then we came back to the United States. And then, uh, we got situated, took about a year, year and a half. And then, uh, I applied for, I was, I was, I got back and I started working at a 01:23:00grocery store.

EU: Where were you living then?

HO: Pasadena at my parents' home. And then, uh, my father had a stroke, oh, I want to say six months after we came back from Japan. And then he passed away, uh, in August of '73. And, uh, so instead of looking for any other job, or teaching job, or anything like that, I, we stayed with my mom and, uh, I continued to work at the grocery store. But then I did start sending applications out to try to get a teaching position, of which I found one in 01:24:00Pacific Grove teaching pottery. And so...

EU: And where was that?

HO: Pacific Grove, California?

EU: Is that near Los Angeles?

HO: That's near Monterey. It's on the Monterey Peninsula. Yeah, it's Monterey, Pacific Grove, Carmel. It's sort of the area there. Anyway, um, and so we moved up to Carmel Valley in '74. And I was teaching full-time. And I started, uh, building a studio and everything.

EU: Were you teaching pottery?

HO: I was teaching pottery. And in '76 I resigned and I became a full-time potter. Up to that point I was just part-time trying to get things squared away. 01:25:00And so, since '76 I guess - '76, '77 - I consider myself being a full-time studio potter. Um.

EU: What kind of pottery were you making at that time?

HO: I was making gas fired, um, I had a couple of what you call reduction kills. And I fired, I made basically functional and whimsical pottery. But I always worked it in my schedule for twice a year to do different shows - one in July 01:26:00and one in November, December - and show what I consider, uh, serious work. Uh.

EU: Where were these shows?

HO: Um, mainly in that Monterey Peninsula area. I had one in Seaside, one in, a number of them in Carmel, and Monterey. And, uh, at different galleries. And, uh, it, you know, kept me, I want to say, sane in that I wasn't just making exclusively production ware, but I was doing one of a kind work. And, uh, I would set my schedule up so that I could do that.

EU: When were your children born?

HO: Uh, I had a son, Kohki, we, he was born in '74. And, uh, he was, his first five, six years were in Carmel Valley. Five years. And then we moved up to Elkton, Oregon. And he started first grade here. And, um, Yoko in '86. And so both our kids went to Elkton High School, or Elkton schools. Um. Yeah, we moved here in early, well, we moved here in February '81. We bought the place in October '80. And we have been here ever since.

EU: How did you decide to come to Elkton?

HO: Well, it wasn't a matter of coming to Elkton. It was just we were in Oregon looking for different places to move. Or trying to find a place to move. There were a number of places that I liked. Uh, and Keiko liked this place the best, up to the, of all the homes we had seen. In that this was really the country. And you couldn't see another house from our property. Uh, it's very, in some ways, very private. And so we bid on the place and they accepted.

EU: So your home is just a little ways up the hill from your st-...

HO: A-hundred yards, yeah.

EU: Yeah. And we have gardens all around. So is that Keiko's work? Or do you do 01:29:00the gardening?

HO: Yeah. No. Keiko does all the gardening. Yeah, she loves flowers and she just plants flowers and trees and, uh, everywhere. In fact, I'd say in the twenty-seven years, this is the twenty-eighth year, that we've been here, she has probably planted close to five-thousand trees. [laughs]

EU: On your property?

HO: On our property.

EU: How many acres do you have?

HO: Thirteen. Yeah.

EU: What kinds of trees did she plant?

HO: Uh, a whole lot of different ones. The main...trees that she has planted are Douglas fir. But we have all sorts of things-- we have pine, we have cedar, we have a number of different kinds of, uh, pines. And then we have fruit trees-- 01:30:00pears, apples. So, yeah, she does all the planting.

EU: And her gardening, is that organic gardening or...?

HO: Yeah. Um, 1986, 7, 5, 1985, or was it '86. Anyway, Fukuoka Masanobu, he wrote "One-Straw Revolution"-- a book about natural, organic farming. And, uh, she, he came and spoke at the U of O and came and visited and we had dinner together and everything. And Keiko has sort of followed the way, followed his 01:31:00way ever since. So for the past twenty years it's more of a natural, organic way of farming. Which is different from, I want to say, Rodale's way of organic farming, or a number of others. It's just, yeah, I mean, there's, it's, there aren't any big, long, straight lines of nice vegetables or anything. They're just all over the place. You know.

EU: What are your children doing now?

HO: Um. Kohki, Kohki, um, was an Asian Studies major in Japanese and Chinese and 01:32:00got his masters in Chinese Literature. He did go to University of Beijing or People's Normal School or something of that nature. And, um...

EU: Where did he study here?

HO: Oberlin his undergraduate and Cornell his graduate years. And he works, he works at a company presently in Portland called Vox. Of which he, uh, I don't know if he buys and, he buys and sells agricultural products for customers in China and Japan. And, uh, mainly all agricultural goods. Uh. It's sort of a job, 01:33:00but he's married, has a child, and bought a home. And so therefore, he says there are other things he'd rather do, but he's got to make sure he can make the payments. And so he's still, you know, doing that. Our daughter is a junior at Wellesley College this year. And her junior year is study abroad, of which summer term she was in Japan, fall term she was in Madrid, Spain, and this spring term she's in Bahia, Brazil. And she'll be back June and then go back for her senior year-- hopefully graduated in June of 2009.

EU: And what's her major?

HO: Uh, it's International Public Health with a strong emphasis on Women's Studies I think.

EU: So when she was in Japan or in Brazil or Madrid, is she working then or...?

HO: No, she's going...

EU: ...internships with, uh...

HO: No, she's really going to school and classes. But, uh, in Brazil and in Japan she is working with, well, in Japan she worked with the homeless and I think in Brazil she's working with, uh, poverty...I don't know if the word is 01:35:00correct, poverty stricken females, with children, or something of that nature. And so that's part of her, she's doing something as far as she does have a class that is independent studies. The school she is at they do have, as the one in Spain they did they have quite a bit, uh, they had many field trips. And so they'd go on the weekend to different places and check different things out. What, I don't know.

EU: And you're still in contact or you visit with you brother and sister?

HO: Uh, my brother passed away, but my sister just came and visited and yes, we keep in contact. She is seventy-four and she has more of a memory of the 01:36:00concentration camps and, uh, different things, as she was like from, uh, seven to eleven years old when she was in camp. While I was just a baby to five years old.

EU: Before we wer-, you were describing your studio and the gallery and sort of the third part of it is the kiln. And so do you wanna, maybe we could change now and talk a little bit about the kilns that you've had. And more recently your, um, Hikarigama.

HO: Um, uh, yeah, uh, in the 70s when I came back from Japan I had two updraft 01:37:00gas fired kilns. Of which, uh, I broke 'em down and brought them here to Elkton. And then, uh, in addition to that I used to have a raku kiln. And, uh, then since the fire I have had a, um, a downdraft car kiln. And they all used gas. And in 1994 I started building my dream kiln, which is a wood fired kiln. And I designed it for dual purposes. The front chamber is like fourteen, fourteen to 01:38:00sixteen feet long and it's an anagama or whole kiln. And it goes straight into the hill side. And it's stepped up. It's about, at its highest point, it's about five feet high in the inside. And then, I built a second chamber behind the anagama which is like a catenary arched kiln. Which in Japan they call a noborigama style kiln. And, uh, with the help of a neighbor friend, Howard Kiefer, we started building it and, uh, it has about six-thousand, six-thousand 01:39:00bricks I think. And took about six months to build. And, uh, we've been firing it ever since. It can take fewer, but I try to get a crew of eight people and we fire it maybe three or four times a year. It takes about six to eight cords of wood each firing and we fire, uh, usually about a hundred to a hundred-ten hours. So, four to five days. Uh...

EU: This is around the clock?

HO: Around the clock, yeah.

EU: You're feeding the fire.

HO: And so we have four people to a shift. And [coughs] four people to a shift 01:40:00and, um, of those four they work, one group works what we call graveyard from eight o'clock at night to seven in the morning. And then the day crew works from seven in the morning to eight at night. And so, um, and it's a very communal type cooperative thing that we do in that we all, each one of us takes one night to cook a meal. Uh, we all have to chip in and do the dishes, we make our own breakfast and lunch, and, uh, we all sort of split the expenses of what it 01:41:00costs. And it runs I want to say about twenty-five hundred to thirty-five hundred a firing. From the cost of wood; some of the chemicals you need to line the kiln, to line the shelves; um, and in the clean up as far as grinding disks and grinders. There's a whole lot of things that you don't need to, you don't need if you're just a regular gas fired or electric fired potter, but you need, you know, ear muffs, masks, uh, face shields, certain kinds of gloves. And so 01:42:00it's a little bit, you could say, expensive, but on the other hand this is the only way you can get pots that look like this.

EU: And so these people, these eight people, they're all potters and they bring their own work...

HO: Yes.

EU: ...to fire along with yours.

HO: Yes. Right. Yes. And so, you know. They are all potters, which is a wonderful thing. And, um, it's, there are so many things to learn I think we're all still learning even after doing it for, this will be our fourteenth year. But it's still a learning process and each firing we just learn a little more.

EU: Uh-huh. Are these the same people that keep coming back or...?

HO: Uh, there are a number of people, um, I've had a number of people that I ask for a ten year commitment. And a number of them have completed that. And they have gone on to build their own kiln or fire at other people's kilns. Uh, and so for ten years I had maybe about five potters that came back every time. Uh, at present Terry Inokuma has fired here the longest of anybody and I think this year will be her thirteenth year. And then I have a couple a, three others that 01:44:00have been firing here for about seven, eight years. And then the rest they...they, they come maybe once a year and maybe this is their fifth year.

EU: W-, does your kiln have a name?

HO: Hikarigama is the name. Uh, it is, it is a, I want to say an ana-noborigama kiln, noborigama. Ana being whole, nobori being climbing, and, it's a two chambered kiln, of which, uh, I sort of, uh, at the first firing I toasted it and christened it Hikarigama. Which means illuminated kiln. And so that is the 01:45:00name of the kiln as many kilns in Japan do have their own name. So I named Hikarigama in hopes that it will be illuminated by the spirit of the potters and the fire. And so, yes, that is the name of the kiln.

EU: There was a book that, a booklet that was published with the different work of the people. Can you talk about this book-- why was this published and was there an exhibit?

HO: Uh, there was an exhibit, that's what it is. It's, uh, there are many...oh, reasons, it's basically a catalog of the thirty plus potters that exhibited. Um, 01:46:00I don't know when it was, about 2004 we were firing and they were going, there was this big, uh, NCECA [National Council on Education for the Ceramic Arts] convention, conference, in Portland. And, uh, couple of the potters, uh, Barb Campbell and Terry Inokuma, said, "We should try to get a show, an exhibit." And so we thought about it and brainstormed it and so I said, "Okay, I'll make a proposal of potters who have fired here and we'll invite them and hopefully they'll all say yes. And we'll have this exhibit. We have to find a place." So we found a place, uh, the Hills-, in Hillsboro. It's the Walters Art Center. 01:47:00And, uh...it ran for a month during the NCECA conference, of which the opening was very well attended. I was very pleased. And the catalog, or the book, is a printing of the, I think there were thirty-eight potters that excepted the invitation. And their piece that was in the exhibit is photographed along with their statement or philosophy. And then, uh, it was, uh, it was printed after 01:48:00the whole thing, because I didn't have the fund necessary to, to, uh, get it printed. But, uh, a good friend of mine offered to foot the bill if I would write something about myself in there. And I said, "No, I don't want to do it." And he says, "Well, if you don't want to get it printed, well, that's fine." And he talked to me some more and I said, "Well, okay. I'll write something short." And, you know. So that's how the printing of the catalog came about. And I think, you know, I have been complemented that it seems to be a wonderful book 01:49:00and, uh, I even gave a lecture at the Schnitzer Art Museum.

EU: In Portland.

HO: No.

EU: Oh, in Eugene?

HO: At, in Eugene.

EU: At the university.

HO: At the university [coughs]. On the potters of Hikarigama. Um. And so that's what it is-- it's a book about some of the potters that have fired at Hikarigama.

EU: Could you talk a little bit about your philosophy, or about your philosophy of art and potter. And what sort of ties this community together?

HO: Um. I don't know what ties this community together. [laughs] That is part of 01:50:00the purpose of firing this kiln, at the beginning, was to try to build community. Of potters, of Elkton, of different people, groups, to be a part of this. And, um, I guess I feel I have been successful. And, uh, we continue to remain a community-- we keep in close contact. People who have come and fired and gone on their way and built their own kilns, uh, they still come here and we visit. But, um...I just, I feel in some ways I guess I want to, oh, I, I want to 01:51:00- I don't know if this is the right word - I want to inspire them by showing the facility and my place that it has been and it still is struggle. And that you have to, I use the term embrace that struggle if you want to be a potter. But it isn't that difficult, because, you know, I've even done it. [laughs] You know. So. But I do think that it's just a matter of you have to sort of, uh, buy into 01:52:00the lifestyle and in a sense embrace the struggle that it's never gonna get easy. You know. The life of a potter, I mean, um, I think for some people who have gotten great names and shown their work all over the world, uh, if you would check, I mean, all of them have been university professors. I mean, just a couple, three names that quickly come to mind is, I mean, like, uh, Peter Voulkos was at Berkley, Paul Soldner was at Claremont. Toshiko Takaezu was at Princeton. You know. And I could go on and on, I mean. They all taught and, 01:53:00versus I think what you see here is more a blue collar approach to everything. And so therefore I hope that it's somewhat inspires other younger people to want to try to have something like this. You know. But that, with the realization, you know, it isn't going to be easy.

EU: Yeah. Listening to you talk, um, I mean, you've talked about the community that your father wanted to establish - the traditional community after the war, the Buddhist community - and you've talked about community at a number of different steps here. You know, after the, you know, with your kiln and after 01:54:00the fire and so-forth. So it seems that's been a real conscious, um...

HO: I think it has been a very conscious thing in my life. And, um, I think the one thing with community is that, uh, in trying to build it, build community, is that you have to be able to let others be involved. Or let others be a part of the process. Um, and so it's not, in a sense, of being an educator and giving forth knowledge, of which they receive, it's just a matter of letting them be a 01:55:00participant. Whether it's cooking dinner for the group or helping build part of the studio or, um, being a participant in the fire. That, um, in many ways we don't need eight people to fire-- I think we could do it with a lot less. But I don't do that, because I feel that with eight or nine people it just give more people a chance to be a part of the whole process. And if they are a part of the whole process, they do have a feeling of, "Yes, I'm contributing and yes, I do feel a part of this whole." Of which they are. And I think that helps them feel 01:56:00that they are part of the community. Um. And, you know, that is sort of a basis of how I feel. That that's what I want to do. And I, you know, I do have problems with it, because some people feel that, you know, "Why are you doing this? You could, you could fire this kiln by yourself," or, "you could do this by yourself. Why rely on other people?" Well, it isn't a fact that I couldn't do it by myself. I can. But if you don't let other people be part of the process and participate, they will never feel part of the community. And, um... So, I 01:57:00think those, I don't know, that feeling has in some way produced all the donations that I received. Because the people that donated I think felt some sense of them being a part of this community. Even though, you know, their whole process being that, the people that had contribute money, that, you know, they had bought. That was their main contribution. But, even though of that they still felt that they were part of a larger community. And so these little groups 01:58:00were able to raise vast amounts of money. Which is just totally amazing. I mean, they were just, it was just totally amazing. But, um, I think it, oh, I don't know, it says a lot of the people that contributed, but it also says in some ways that I have been quite successful in building a community of people. Which make me happy. [laughs]

EU: Yeah. Right. One last question then. Do you still, uh, I know you participate in the Asian Celebration most years. And you sell pieces from you gallery here.

HO: Yeah.

EU: Do you go to shows or...?

HO: I don't do too many, but, uh, for the last, I want to say fifteen years I have tried to, um, I have tried to, uh, be more on the grassroots level. And so I have gone to Obon Festivals in Pasadena and Portland. And, uh, then I used to do Nikkei Matsuri in San Jose. And, uh, the Asian Celebration. And so they were more geared to grassroot Japanese slash Asian groups of trying to sell. Um. And 02:00:00it hasn't been that successful, uh, but I think I have done some educating to these people that there is still a different way of pottery still being made. You know, it isn't low fire, less stir or things of that nature. Um, old time wood fire, somewhat traditional looking pots. Um. So I, uh, I don't do as many shows as I once used to. Um. I did do a show in San Francisco-- the American 02:01:00Craft Association major event in San Francisco two years ago. But I have sort of, uh, quit doing big national shows. I do some, uh, invitational gallery shows. I try to do two or three a year. And so this year I will be showing at the Japanese Gardens in Portland. And I will, I still have to get it settled, but Hue-ping at White Lotus Gallery has asked me to show near the later part of this year for a one month exhibit. And so, um, those are the only shows that I 02:02:00do now. Don't make very much money, but it's okay. [laughs]

EU: [laughs] Okay. Well, are there any questions I should have been asking you?

HO: No.

EU: Or anything else you'd like to ask?

HO: I don't think, I think we've covered it all.

EU: Okay.

HO: Yeah, I don't know. [laughs]

EU: Okay. [laughs]

HO: I think we covered too much, but... [laughs]

EU: [laughs] Okay.

HO: [laughs] Thank you very much.

EU: Okay. Thank you, Hiroshi.