Margaret Milliken Oral History Interview, September 28, 1979

JL: Well, Miss M. why don't we start from the very beginning, where you were born and when.

MM: Well, I was born at Oregon City, Oregon in 1920 and I lived in that area all during my childhood up 'til when I left for college.

JL: What did your father do?

MM: My father was a grocer.

JL: In Oregon City?

MM: Oregon City. My grandfather established the first grocery store in Oregon City, Oregon.

JL: Is that...

MM: A long time, one of the early pioneers.

JL: What was the name of the grocery?

MM: Buckles Feed and Seed.

JL: Buckles Feed and Seed.

MM: And that grocery store continued until after my, oh, I guess, I'm not going to get the right date on that, I'm sure, but, it was approximately it was over 00:01:00fifty-five years the grocery store existed.

JL: My gosh.

MM: And the property still belongs to the family but they lease it but...

JL: Did you know your grandparents?

MM: Oh, yes, very well.

JL: And this is your father's...

MM: No, this is my mother's parents.

JL: What was their name? Buckles.

MM: Buckles. Buckles and my grandmother lived to be ninety-three and just passed away three years ago.

JL: I remember that.

MM: And she came as a pioneer across in covered wagon. Her family moved from Kansas.

JL: What kind of stories did she tell you about that?

MM: Well, my grandmother didn't talk too much about it and she was very young when she crossed. She talks more of the early days when they when she was a little older, but, her family came and they were lumber people.

JL: And that's why they came west then?

MM: Well, they just came west because it was a long story, my (chuckle) this 00:02:00gets into the family story.

JL: That's fine.

MM: Her mother remarried and then her step father was unkind to her and so there were older boys in the family, she was the youngest. So the older boy just picked her up and came west with her. It's a very interesting story.

JL: Yes. How old was she?

MM: She was about six.

JL: Six, so she can't remember very much about her trip over.

MM: No, no, but she remembers a lot about the early pioneer days in Oregon City and--

JL: Why did your grandfather's family come west?

MM: He was a loner. I was asking my mother about that not so long ago. Apparently he had been on his own since a very young boy and I'm not sure how he got west but he was a self-made man. He didn't have any schooling, formal 00:03:00schooling, but he wanted to start a grocery story so he bought arithmetic book and built the store and did very well...

JL: Why did they choose Oregon City, I wonder?

MM: Well, that was the first capital of Oregon and that was one of the early settlements in Oregon and it was right on the Willamette River and, of course, all the transportation was by river, the old steamers. I remember the old steamer as a child, going up and down the Willamette River but and it was just sort of a center location and people were settlers there and he had done lumbering too but decided he wanted to try the feed and seed and grocery business, so, he just established it.

JL: How did they get together, your grandparents?

MM: This I don't know. I don't know that. I don't know that.

JL: Go ahead.

MM: You know I don't know all the stories. I don't know my grandfather was a 00:04:00very kindly man. I remember him. He passed away when I was in the sixth grade but I do remember him but neither one of my grandparents talked very much about, you know, I think in the old days people that their personal lives were more private than they are. People seem today to want to share things more with other people and you know more about their feelings but...

JL: It's a shame they didn't share it more...

MM: Yes, yes, I wish, I wish they had and mother was the same way. She doesn't know too much about the early period and maybe I should be more curious, you know, to have found out more.

JL: It's hard...

MM: Sometimes I've, I'm sorry now I didn't you know.

JL: Yes, I know about that. Well, about your father's parents? Did you know them also?

MM: Oh, yes, very much. They my grandmother and grandfather were born in England and came to this country.

JL: When was that?

MM: I don't know the date they came. My grandfather was an early a minister and he was a his family came and settled in Michigan, Minnesota area and he was one of those early ministers who rode horseback up into the Canadian country and preached and Horseman Parson they called him and had his early days there and then came west and was a Baptist minister in the Portland area for years and then he and three other ministers established Baptist, Western Baptist 00:06:00Theological Seminary and grandfather was president of that for a number of years.

JL: My gosh.

MM: Yes, and he was--he was quite an educated man.

JL: Why did he come west in the first place then?

MM: Just everybody was going west, you know. I think it was just that the new world was in the west and I suppose he was an adventuresome man and he my grand¬mother, I think, he met her in the west and she had been married before. Her husband passed away and then grandfather married her and all of my father, I think, she had one son by her first marriage the rest of her children were all by the second marriage. They were a very English--

JL: In what sense?

MM: In the sense that they kept some of the customs of England, you know. If you went to your grandmothers, why, you always had tea, high tea. (chuckle)

JL: Is that right?

MM: That was very interesting and I can remember those things as a child.

JL: Did they yearn to get back to England...

MM: No--

JL: Someday.

MM: No. I think most of their families came and some were established in Canada in the eastern part of Canada and then quite a number settled in Vancouver British Columbia, settled in Canada rather than in the United States, so...

JL: Your family has been in the west for a...

MM: Long time.

JL: Long time?

MM: Yes, right and but it's again I don't know I have met quite a number of relatives from Canada but we've never been close, you know, I have never maybe 00:08:00we visited at one time and they've been down and visited but that's been a number of years ago.

JL: So, your grandfather was your grandfather your father's parents were in Portland and your mother's parents were in Oregon City...

MM: In Oregon City.

JL: So how did...

MM: My mother and father met at the First Baptist Church in Oregon City. My grandfather was a Baptist minister and he was the minister and my father and mother were of teen age and going to the same high school and that's how they met and then were married.

JL: What year did they get married?

MM: I think they married in 1918 and that was during the, no, I take that back I think their marriage must have been in 1917. My father was in the first war and then...

JL: What did he do in the war?

MM: Well, he was a sergeant and he was stationed over in Fort Lewis and he never 00:09:00left there. He became a drill sergeant and big gun sergeant and they never would let him go. He wanted to go overseas because all his younger brothers went but he was never allowed to go so that was always had bothered him.

JL: So he got married instead. (chuckle)

MM: He (chuckle) my brother was born during the war.

JL: So, you have how many brothers and sisters?

MM: One.

JL: One brother and...

MM: One brother that's all and he was killed in the Second World War.

JL: Oh.

MM: As a marine pilot.

JL: What was his name?

MM: Weseley.

JL: Weseley...

MM: Weseley...

JL: --was born in 1918 then?

MM: And I was born in 1920.

JL: I see.

MM: Just following the First World War,

JL: So, your parents got married during the war and they came back to Oregon City to do... MM: They were my grandfather then wanted to set up my mother's 00:10:00brother and my father in a grocery business so he established the store in West Lynn which is just five miles from Oregon City. It's a very small community; it was called Willamette and the community still exists it's a...

JL: Your grandfather established the store.

MM: For--

JL:--and your

MM: --and my father established the store and gave it to my brother and my mother's brother and my father and they owned the store jointly then and then my father was in the grocery business the remainder of the time...until he retired.

JL: So you grew up in a small town?

MM: Very small town.

JL: Yes, what did your mother do during the years you were growing up?

MM: She was a housewife and worked in the grocery store on weekends to help out and I remember as a child I would always, Saturdays, my Saturdays were to go to Oregon City she would help in the downtown store and we would play in the 00:11:00back-room. (laughter)

JL: Play in the backroom?

MM: Oh, yes, play in the haystacks.

JL: The backroom had hay stacks?

MM: Well, it was a feed and seed grocery store so--

JL: So he had two stores then? Your uncle and your...

MM: Father maintained one and my grandfather kept the other one.

JL: I see.

MM: Yes, so...

JL: Well, your was your mother a educated have formal education?

MM: Through high school and she was married instead of going to college and my father was quite a athlete and had a scholarship to go to a university but at that time it was the war and when the war was over he had married so he didn't go on and pursue his education.

JL: He was interested in athletics though?

MM: He was a football player and...

JL: How did that influence your activities? Did...

MM: Oh, I don't think it only thing is that he was an outdoorsperson and our 00:12:00family always, you know, they always did travel as much as they were allowed to and we always went to, oh, if we go picnics we'd go to the woods or we'd go to the coast or he was a fisherman and a hunter and naturally you become acquainted with the out-of-doors that way so it's a part of you.

JL: I always think of a business that's run by a family I always think that they have to stay there twenty-four hours a day and they're practically married to the business.

MM: Yes.

JL: He was fortunate then to be able to go out.

MM: Oh, yes, they would, you know, there were two of them and they'd take time off, you know, and my uncle would handle it while he was gone and, well, they couldn't take large periods of time, you know, I think leisure in those days was like you'd have your Sundays off period or you'd have two or three weeks' 00:13:00vacation too. I remember as a child my father always had a two week vacation and we'd go someplace but they didn't and it wasn't anything for them to be to go to work at seven o'clock and quit at seven at night or eight, you know.

JL: What kind of activities would you do with him?

MM: With my father?

JL: With your father.

MM: Well, whenever he was home we'd we were a family group we'd participate in all the social activities of a small community which there are lots of them, socials and a lot of things evolved around the church and the school program and we would fish go down to the Willamette River and fish.

JL: You would go with your father and he encouraged you as a...

MM: Oh, yes.

JL: A female?

MM: Yes.

JL: To do that?

MM: Oh, yes. Yes.

JL: And he had a son.

MM: Oh, yes, yes.

JL: Was that unusual?

MM: I don't think so. I always did things my brother did because we were so 00:14:00close. That's twenty-one months apart, you know, we really grew up together.

JL: You were good friends then.

MM: Very good friends, yes, so and I happened to live in a little part of the community where there were mostly boys and not very many girls so my activities were to play with the boys sports, so I became sports became a part of my life too. I was a physical education major.

JL: I remember that.

MM: And so if the boys were playing football why I played football and if they were playing softball I played softball. (laughter)

JL: What did your mother think of that?

MM: Oh, she thought it was great. She didn't mind.

JL: She didn't encourage you to pursue female type activities? Cooking and...

MM: No, well, I helped we always had chores. All children do when they are raised in our time, you know, after school you had certain responsibilities around the house and you helped with dinner and you helped with dishes and you helped with the house cleaning but, you know, nothing big, you know, you always 00:15:00had time to play and do other things and we--I feel very fortunate living in a very small community that my parents were very interested that we have the opportunities to have music lessons, for example, and that we--they were certain that we wouldn't go into Portland to the theaters and to the concerts and the symphony concerts and they were very good about those type of things and...

JL: How did the depression affect--

MM: Well, it didn't we were very fortunate because when you own a grocery store (Laughter) you eat, but we I can remember that probably my folks didn't do as many things as they might have done before but they had a very nice business 00:16:00they were not wealthy people but they were middle income and could do the things they wanted to do.

JL: Even during the depression years?

MM: Yes. Yes.

JL: You were fortunate.

MM: We were fortunate that way and I feel very good because it became, you know, a lot of my background because I had developed music appreciation and I was able to participate in the like the university college bands and high school bands, orchestra I was in the junior symphony in Portland. I was a member of that for three years and enjoyed that tremendously.

JL: What instrument do you play?

MM: Violin. So, I felt very fortunate that had those kinds of opportunities, you know.

JL: You said that you had gone out fishing and hunting with your father. Did he 00:17:00ever discuss with you ecology or environmental ethic or recycling or anything of those--

MM: That wasn't even part, you know, I think people were more concerned about the environment in those days...

JL: How do you mean that?

MM: Well, I think the population was different. It was a matter of use, I think, there was no overuse of the lands or of the rivers or the fish or the, you know, whatever that people I just think it's a matter of how many people are in a given environment that at that point people could go out down after dinner and catch a couple of bass or three but they wouldn't just fish and catch all there were they'd catch what their needs were but I was raised in a community where there was less than 3,000 people lived there and not over populated and all.

JL: What was the feel towards the environment?

MM: Environment? People respected the environment.

JL: How do you mean that? Define what you mean by respect.

MM: All right. If a, for instance, I guess what I'm really trying to say is, oh, how to describe it. People didn't, people had to make their own leisure time it wasn't there were maybe it was one theatre in Oregon City other than that people were more family. Family people. If they were going to do anything they did it around their family and if they didn't, for instance, my brother and I never would go off and just be away from the family for a week or two or a summer, I think as people have as populations has increased, I guess, what you're trying 00:19:00to have me answer is it's going to be hard to record I'm trying to get it all settled in my mind where I developed these--my father would, you know, for example, if we went fishing or anything he would teach us how to do it properly.

JL: Do what? What do you mean?

MM: Well, like we would use the proper hooks and lines and the whole thing, you know, then we wouldn't go out and just try to catch a lot of fish for just catching fish's sake. If we and I guess man didn't overuse the environment. We didn't have boats or motorboats we didn't pollute the environment because we had we weren't using any of the vehicles that do that type of thing. There was very few cars. People did more walking.

JL: So it wasn't it was because of not having the facility to abuse the environment.

MM: I guess that's what we're trying to...

JL: The reason why you--

MM: Yes.

JL:--say there was respect.

MM: Yes. I think the environment was just part of our lives. Now we have to be so concerned in every better use of the environment. People--children in those days didn't walk down the street and throw paper on the ground because everybody respected what their community looked like.

JL: What did your father teach you about, oh, nature?

MM: Nothing, really I learned most of mine through my schooling and I think the Camp Fire Girl programs. I was very active in that and I went to summer camp and through them--

JL: You were a Camp Fire Girl as a young person?

MM: Yes, and through the nature programs I learned appreciation of the woods and 00:21:00the outdoor environment. I learned camping skills there. I think I believe in youth programs of one kind or another. I think they teach you a lot of things.

JL: Your parents encouraged you to go to camp.

MM: Oh, yes, yes.

JL: And to participate in things?

MM: Yes, we were always sent to summer camp. I'm sure that's where I learned my first appreciations in nature.

JL: Was your mother also a camper and an outdoor person?

MM: She would do things with the family, yes. I but I'm positive that most of my first skills and awareness as an environment and nature came from my Camp Fire program.

JL: I guess I always think of that period I guess I feel like the last twenty years it's changed for again the role of women in it seems like in the '30's 00:22:00women weren't as interested in outdoor activities and so you were I would have thought you would be unusual in your you weren't then? There were a lot of other women interested in...

MM: Oh, yes. Yes.

JL: Hmmm.

MM: I think I was unusual in the fact that I once I started going to summer camp I thought it was so great that the only way I could ever figured I could afford to was to become a bugler, so I learned to play the bulge then they would they used to (laughter) allow children, you know, they'd have a camp bugler and they would pay your way so that's the way I could stay in summer camp six weeks, you see, and so...

JL: Why did you choose the Camp Fire Girls over the Girl Scouts?

MM: It's just because in the community Camp Fire had been established. Girl Scouts Portland was one of the largest Camp Fire Girl's areas in the nation for 00:23:00a number of years and still is rather that and Seattle is the two largest Camp Fire Councils in the U.S. and it's just that probably in another state or another community Girl Scouts somebody probably established that first. But, we didn't have any Girl Scouts in my area there were no there was no program developed there and then at a later time it was developed in Portland and it's very strong in Portland, now, but...

JL: What activities did the Camp Fire Girls did your Camp Fire Group do during the depression?

MM: Oh, we'd do just what children normally do even now, you know, we'd have group meetings and we'd have overnight camping trips and we'd have cookouts and--

JL: You didn't do any community activities?

MM: Oh, yes. Yes.

JL: Like what?

MM: Oh, that's a long time ago to remember.(chuckle) Camp Fire Girls in the 00:24:00early days was founded on certain honors that you received and you could earn honors in health and that would be things that you would do around the home or your own personal car or in homemaking and you would do things at home. You'd bake a cake or you'd do this for so many times and you'd get a bead and it was on nature and so you would study and learn about nature. You'd have to be able to identify ten birds or, you know, like the Boy Scout program and so as a child if you're ambitious and all and interested in learning I think all children are curious you do as many of those as you can and there was one on citizenship and that would be participation, I presume, in whatever was in the community at that time. So, you would do all of these diversified things so that you could earn 00:25:00enough honors so that you could be a, I think, it used to be the wood gathers rank and, you know, then you go onto another rank. It's like the Boy Scout program. You eventually end up an Eagle Scout or you end up a Torch Bearer in Camp Fire, you know, but children that, I think, these programs were very educational because they encouraged you to learn and I was always curious so I would learn as many things as I could and...

JL: What activities did you enjoy the most then, during this period? During the '30's I guess you would have been a teenager?

MM: Well, I had a very diverse I loved sports I participated in all activities and I loved my music I continued with that and I suppose the least I did at that particular time was anything in homemaking, (chuckle) I was more interested in I was not ever good in art work so I never I was never my third grade teacher told 00:26:00me I'd never be an artist and it's true I never have been. (laughter)

JL: (chuckle) And all because of your third grade teacher.

MM: Well, they can encourage you or discourage you and but all people have different talents, you know, and skills and abilities and I have a great appreciation for art and I love I even go out and try to sketch sometimes, but I'm the only one that can enjoy it. (laughter) It's because I think it's a release for a person, you know. Things like that, but...

JL: Well, how was your family different from other families in your community in regard to bringing up their children?

MM: Well, the only thing I feel very fortunate about is that my parents cared about their children and they cared enough to see that we had exposures to many 00:27:00different experiences and I'm sure they...

JL: And other families didn't in the community?

MM: Not all families but my mother and father, I guess, were very dedicated people to their children, and maybe they did too many things for us, but they were always they were very unselfish and they were always trying to see that we had the necessary kinds of things to help us grow, like for instance, we always knew we were going to college from the very beginning. There was never any question about it that we were going to go to college. It was just something you just-- it was a part of growing up and we did go to college and--

JL: Did they have a particular subject that they wanted you and your brother to study?

MM: No, we had a choice to study anything that we chose.

JL: But, they were willing to provide the opportunity for you?

MM: Yes, yes.

JL: Were you closer to one parent than the other?

MM: No, no. I was very close to both.

JL: What kind of things did you do with your mother?

MM: Well, my mother was very much a homemaker so eventually I learned to cook and I suppose the other thing that we did were just family things, you know, we always did them together. Evenings we were, you know, like children we would all families would play games together. We didn't have television at that time and my mother has lived through, you know, the old Victor phonograph, to the first (chuckle) radio with ear phones to the eventually to the television, you know. But, we didn't have television, see, when I was growing up so families made more. We would read, we would build a fire in the fireplace and play games and 00:29:00make popcorn and eat apples and I can remember those kind of things as a family group, you know, but families had to make things, do things themselves together. Now, I think, television separates families.

JL: You think it's due to television?

MM: I think a lot of it. People sit down to the tube and everybody's absorbed in watching and you know you don't even talk. I don't think families communicate. I know we get guilty of that sometimes today, you know, we come home tired and my mother will be there and my friend comes over and we fix dinner and if we're tired we just instead of talking or communicating or doing some things or maybe we'd I feel it would be better if we didn't have it, you know.

JL: The television?

MM: Yes, I think it would be good if we all threw it out the window. (laughter) 00:30:00But, it is a great educator, you know, children I think are exposed to many things they couldn't be exposed to but I think we ought to select well and carefully.

JL: Well, how did you decide to go to O.S.C.? How had you heard about this college?

MM: Well, I went to Linfield College two years, my grandfather being a Baptist minister he wouldn't indicated he would like us to go to Linfield, my brother and I so I was received a scholarship and so I went there two years but I was trying to major in physical education I knew they didn't have the same core program curriculum that Oregon State had and that I would be a better teacher if I went to the Oregon State so I transferred at my junior year.

JL: Now why did...

MM: I guess I wanted to be a teacher since I was in the elementary school, I just knew I wanted to be a teacher.

JL: Why is that? What did you see in teaching?

MM: I don't know. I loved school, you know, I one of these crazy ones that liked to go to school and enjoyed every minute of it and I suppose if you really you probably there was a teacher or two that everybody has their idols or people they look up to and I suppose when I went to high school I had a very fine physical education teacher that felt cared about students spent time and I decided t rat I was fairly good in sports so I thought that would be a good thing for me to way to teach.

JL: What did your parents think of that?

MM: They thought it was fine. No problem. (chuckle) So, I started out to become a physical education teacher.

JL: Did they say anything about having to did they want you to get married or did they...

MM: No.

JL: ...or did they want you to pursue a career or...

MM: No, they thought it was fine if I pursued a career and so I did and I graduated from here in '42 and became a teacher down in Coos Bay for two years.

JL: What did your grandparents at this time were living at Portland and Oregon City. What did they feel about you your future as a young woman?

MM: Oh, I don't think they ever they always seemed to be in favor of anything that we were doing no one ever said no one ever talked to me about being a doctor or a taking home economics or whatever. I can't ever remember any discussion about it.

JL: They sound like liberal people.

MM: I guess they were. I guess they were because we really could choose what we 00:33:00wanted to do. JL: What did your brother want to pursue?

MM: He was a he wanted to go into business and he graduated with a business degree from Linfield College.

JL: He wanted to do what with that?

MM: I don't know. I think just get in the business world in some way but...

JL: He didn't want to take over the family store?

MM: No, no, well, I don't really know the answer to that, you know. I he just apparently didn't want to be a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer. He probably so I guess he took business and thought there would be some entries in that, you know, some kind of job.

JL: What did you think about taking over the family store?

MM: No, I never I didn't want to be involved in bus_____ I wanted to work with people...

JL: Why is that?

MM: ...in a different way. You know, I always enjoyed, well, very soon when I 00:34:00grew up I being in camps, summer camps, I eventually became a summer camp counselor when I was very young and I enjoyed working with the younger children and...

JL: Younger meaning elementary?

MM: Yes.

JL: What did you enjoy about it?

MM: I don't know, I guess, I just liked people I think I guess my philosophy is that you were the happiest when you were giving of yourself to others and I that's where I get my greatest satisfactions and so I guess teaching is very much in line with that because if you're a good teacher you're willing to give of yourself and time.

JL: Had you conceptualized that as a student? Yourself.

MM: I think so. I think so, or through my study through influences of other 00:35:00teachers I'm certain.

JL: What part did religious background play in your decisions? Or your attitude towards that.

MM: Well, I'm sure it helped me structure my values. I never had to question who says what is right and what is wrong (chuckle), you know, in the world today it's hard but I'm sure I felt that I had that I was caught there was this particular way one should live, you know, to be kindly to people and to be concerned over your neighbors and of people and I was taught courtesy when I was growing up, respectfulness, respect of your elders.

JL: What part did religion play in this?

MM: Well, I'm sure it helped you establish your, as I say, as I've grown older I 00:36:00think our lifestyle patterns have changed and our whole way of what is accepted as right and wrong has changed, you know. I was raised I went to my first dance when I was a senior in college. I went to my first Sunday movie when I was a sophomore in college. I mean a senior in high school was my first dance and, of course, if you ever knew the Baptist religion, you know, it was sinful to dance and it was sinful to play cards, but my family didn't do that. We did play cards which would make me feel pretty lucky, you know, that and I suppose that I just didn't we didn't have a lot of school dances when I was growing up. They really came it might have been my junior year I went but we then we were sent to dance school when it seemed that young people should be able to dance and it was 00:37:00socially acceptable then we were we were sent to dance school my brother and I.

JL: What did your grandfather think of that?

MM: Well, we just never told him.

JL: Hmm.

MM: That we did it. He never asked us and I'm sure he knew we did it.

JL: No feelings of guilt your parents had?

MM: No, no.

JL: They didn't have it?

MM: No, no, but, so they were very as you say liberal I'm as I am talking I'm talking this way about my childhood that I'm sure I didn't was fortunate to have liberal parents because I think they were willing to change with the changing world...

JL: Especially since your grandparents sound like stricter personalities?

MM: Yes, yes, but they were not forceful, you see, and my father and, you know, my mother were they cared about them and we would always go visit them on Sundays that was a regular Sunday procedure. They didn't let them dictate their 00:38:00lives either, you know, and I'm sure and my grandfather was a pretty open minded person I'm sure for a minister.

JL: For a Baptist minister. What about your peers? It sounds it seems during the depression you probably had sounds like you might have had more opportunities than a lot of other people.

MM: Well, but we were all very close, you know. We always did we lived on a little country school eight grades in the school and we always had a good educational program good teachers and we there were no economic sets. Everybody was important and they were all your friends, you know, so I don't think that affected how I felt about my friends.

JL: Were there any--

MM: I didn't we all played and did things together. I just felt good that I had and the opportunity that I could, for instance, go to Portland and be a part of a music groups and this kind of thing, you know, and that my parents were willing that we did that. I think things open up for children just like they open up for adults. If you get started like I started taking violin lessons and you become proficient at all then you're encouraged by your music teachers to participate in ensemble groups and these kinds of things and through their experience they lead you, say, to be part of a Portland larger group, you know, and I think those things just happen. I don't think your parents plan all of them for you. I think you make them happen too because of the people you 00:40:00associate with.

JL: What can you think of any particular event or person that influenced you in your decision to go into P.E. during those first years?

MM: Yes, I can think of probably my high school physical education teacher and she was very much a human being, a very good teacher, cared about people and...

JL: How do you mean human being?

MM: ...well, some teachers, you know, really care about themselves, you know, more than they care about their students and she would be she was well liked by everyone she was open, she would take time to help people when they needed it, she was concerned but she didn't overdo it at all but she would and she put on a very fine program, you know. We participated in athletics to a certain degree. 00:41:00We played competitively. She made all that possible through the kind of program that she had and, I suppose, a child they probably think, I know as a teacher I think we are guilty of if you think a student has some directions or that they have some capabilities you can't help but to encourage them to pursue it and probably that's what happened and I like it or I wouldn't have continued.

JL: What kind of activities did you do in the P.E. then?

MM: Oh, we did very similar, of course, there are a lot of new things now. Jogging, nobody did any jogging in those but we had softball and basketball and track and field and played hockey, swimming, quite a...

JL: You had all these opportunities in a small town?

MM: Yes, yes. It was a very good school system and one of the reasons it was financially a very solid school system because of the large paper mills. Crown Zellerbach and Holley Paper Mills and, of course, that tax monies from those were very self-supporting to the schools and so they were really recognized as very fine schools. We had excellent music program, excellent bands and we would travel throughout the state and to participate in state meets and we had a very fine orchestra. We had a marching band as well a symphonic band and, so, it was really and I remember I doubt if a lot of schools even do it now, they provided all the musical instruments in the band for the children to use and learn to play.

JL: During the depression years they were able to do that?

MM: During the depression years, yes. It was a very strong. They put on operettas. I can remember them doing many, many fine operettas.

JL: Were you a singer, yourself?

MM: No, no, I played in the orchestra?

JL: I see.

MM: I was not a singer.

JL: Were you unusual rather your parents unusual in expecting you their two children to go to college during that period of time when money was short?

MM: Well, maybe it was the educational system we had and the people that helped us grow up. Lots of my friends went to the universities too. Family next door all their children are college graduates. In fact right around the little nucleus of houses where I lived I would say almost every family around their 00:44:00children went to the universities.

JL: Why do you think it was different in West Lynn than from the rest of the country?

MM: I don't (chuckle) really know, unless the people, they are very fine people there. Lifetime friends and I just sold my mother's house, our home, after fifty some years...

JL: That must have been hard.

MM: It was and I saw all the people and people cared about each other and shared and they cared about, I think, they for a very small community they were rather culturally minded, I think, you know. They wanted their children to have better opportunities than perhaps they had and they were willing to sacrifice to them and I'm sure all of them made sacrifices to send their children on to school. That wasn't true of everyone in the community but my mother's friends and all of 00:45:00those children had an opportunity to go to the universities, if they wanted to. Most of them did.

JL: Hmmm. That is unusual. Well, what year did you then start at Linfield?

MM: I started, oh, gosh, now I've got to go back and figure it out. About 1938.

JL: 1938.

MM: '38 and then I was there I came to Oregon State in '40 and graduated in '42.

JL: What did you think of Linfield?

MM: Thought it was wonderful. Wonderful small college. Very friendly, very fine students there, very and again our lives in the college were colleges then, you know, there were lots of clubs and groups and people did things as a group more. I think our students today their life styles are different. They do their thing 00:46:00with a small group perhaps of friends but it's based on a social relationship rather than a school planned like clubs now are very difficult to organize because students, don't see a need for it and I think that's why and when there is no need why then I why try to generate one.

JL: Why was it different then than now?

MM: Well, I'm not quite sure. Maybe you can answer that for me. (chuckle) You're more familiar with how young people feel. When I went to Oregon State you knew every student there practically that went to Oregon State. We were a student body of about 5,000 and we had we always had big dances M.U. dances. We'd have a spring ball, a cotillion, a sophomore cotillion, a, you know, on down the line 00:47:00and everyone, you know, you're on committees to help all these things activate and I was in a social group here in a living group I was in a sorority and a we had lots of activities that so we always did things as groups. Not just as individuals. Oh, sure, we'd go out to a date and show and but most things happened around your groups you were with which is different and...

JL: How did you know about O.S.C? How did you know enough to come here?

MM: Well, I just asked a lot of questions. Where was the best physical education program in the state of Oregon. I didn't think of out of state because I don't know. I probably didn't want to go out of state but I was told by, I suppose 00:48:00those people I worked with that Oregon State had a good program so I came here and...

JL: Was there any doubt that you wouldn't finish college?

MM: No.

JL: I mean find a job or marry or something? You had no doubt?

MM: No. I wanted to...yes, I wanted to finish, and I did work summers in order to attend here. I dipped ice cream for two summers and--

JL: Here in Corvallis.

MM: No, at home and I had a job and but that was, good for me too I learned lots of thing about that.

JL: So you and your brother went to Linfield for, well, you went for two years and he went for four?

MM: Yes.

JL: Is that correct?

MM: Yes, yes, yes.

JL: And then you decided that you wanted to get better training at this point?

MM: No, I just went two years there and then I did they really didn't have a 00:49:00good major program of physical education, you know, only two women teachers and two men teachers and I thought if I wanted to be a teacher of physical education I'd better go where I could get a broader a better background and better skills.

JL: What did your grandfather think of it?

MM: He thought that was fine.

JL: And no problems?

MM: No problems and I had some friends at Oregon State and...

JL: Had you ever been here before?

MM: No.

JL: You'd never been down to Corvallis or this area?

MM: No. No. I just...

JL: Well, what did you think when you...

MM: Loved it! Loved it! Thought it was great, you know.

JL: You didn't mind being so far away from your home territory?

MM: Oh, no, no and there are so many exciting courses, you know, that I didn't exist at Linfield, you know, I was very busy we'd, you know, they'd we'd have 00:50:00the basic courses in Chemistry and Anatomy and some of those things over there in our social sciences but to be able to come to a place where you could learn teaching methods and how to teach sports and about all I remember we'd take techniques of teaching tennis, techniques of teaching basketball, volleyball, whatever it was methods of teaching guidance and counselor courses and things that never existed at Lynnfield that were very exciting.

JL: Can you compare the physical ed. to today? Compare it from when you were a student? Can you make general statements about how it's changed?

MM: Well, I think it has changed to the point of view that instead of just, you know, being a teacher in a school environment the study of the human movement is 00:51:00a much broader scope. I think they are moving into allied fields that wouldn't might have been exciting for a person when I was growing up such as being a sports broadcaster or to moving in gerontology or to moving into adaptive or corrective physical education, any of these new fields that they are coming up with, I think, makes a much broader opportunities for people that might have interests. Mainly ours was just a teaching program.

JL: Most of the students were...

MM: They became teachers, yes.

JL: Teachers.

MM: Right, and other than and if the athletic programs still existed, you know, but more of the athletes were majors in physical education and good students, 00:52:00very good students and now athletics seems to be a little ballgame all its own. (laughter) I was so interested at lunch time a girl called me with whom I went to Oregon State when I was a student back in 1940 and she has a young girl from her community that was here on an athletic scholarship this year and she wanted to know if I was still involved in athletics and I said, "No, I wasn't." And she said, "Well, I just wanted somebody around that she could talk to." But, the girl is here strictly on a volleyball scholarship and athletic and that's so different, you know, and the girls I the thing that I never will be able to accept and I've I was a good in competition myself and when I was here I was on the hockey team and I was on but we did play other schools but never in a 00:53:00competitive set schedule where a winner is determined and I loved competition but I hate to see girls move in the same pattern that the fellows are and have been for years. Like a girl comes to me, I had three of them when I was advising, they said, "Well, we can't have any afternoon classes at all." I said, "Why?" "Well, the crew meets every day down from one to five." And I said, "Are you here for an education or are you here to be on the crew team?" And I said, "Nobody can complete their university by having every afternoon free to go down and practice crew." And I said, "You have to make a decision." I said, "You have to decide why you're here at the university. Now, if you're here to be on the crew team fine." But, I think it's too bad that the coaches are putting our 00:54:00young people under those kinds of pressures.

JL: Men weren't put under those kind of pressures?

MM: Oh, yes, when I was here, yes.

JL: Do you object to that then?

MM: Yes.

JL: Also?

MM: Yes, yes.

JL: Even at that time?

MM: Yes. And I'm sure the girls are going to get themselves in the same bind when they end up four years they are probably going to be an excellent basketball player or volleyball player but their education is going to suffer and I think it's too bad.

JL: What was women's athletics like then during your day?

MM: It was exciting! You know we played intermurals, we played with the University of Washington. We had dual meets, tri meets, but everybody played and then we'd have a banquet afterwards, you know, and you all were friends, you know and I still have friends from the University of Washington when I went through school and things of that kind, you know, that it was exciting. We'd on 00:55:00the hockey field we probably would, you know, we were very competitive but we also there was a friendly kind of an atmosphere, you know.

JL: Well, why do you think it's like what you were describing?

MM: Now?

JL: Now, and for men in the past? And today.

MM: Well, I think any of the athletes in the past if you really talk to them I know I have a number of them that I professionally associated with and they had to be a pretty good student in order to be able to handle athletics and their grades and only the best ones were able to come through. Others would, I think, you know they'd start but they never could quite put it all together and I think 00:56:00when I was in school the boys that were in athletics and they were all a lot of good friends of mine were very interested in their academics too but I think that today they put so much pressure on the winning aspect the boys really don't have much time to do anything but play football, like this fall, and, you know, I think, that's it's a business and--

JL: Business for who? You mean for the...

MM: For the (chuckle) for the athletic department. I think they're it's just like a plain big business to me and I don't think they ought to try to associate an education along with it.

JL: What do you think the effect on the student is then?

MM: Well, I doubt and maybe I'm wrong I haven't really followed up with a study bit I think it would be very interesting how many of our athletes every really graduate. I think the athlete we get today comes here in hope, the hope or to 00:57:00any university of becoming skilled enough; that they can go on into pro ball. You know what I mean, I think we have more that have those kinds of goals and I'm sure this is just an environment is just a stepping environment.

JL: Hmmm.

MM: And I'm positive a lot of them don't really come to get an education.

JL: So what's the effect on the individual then, do you think?

MM: Well, I don't know. Maybe that's what they want in life, you know maybe that's maybe that's their goal and...

JL: During your time as a student then it wasn't fellows and women didn't want to concentrate just on the sport?

MM: No, no, they were all a part of the college like everybody knew the football players and they were just, you know, they were good guys and nobody called them 00:58:00a jock which they do, you know, and they were really very well respected young people and part of the community college life.

JL: So, why has it changed then?

MM: I don't know, you know, I think pro ball professionalism, you know, if you're paid what Bill Walton is a year to be a basketball player (chuckle) then is one person can do puts sets the ideals up for all the other a lot of other young men to hope they can achieve that, you know, in money I think might be a big factor for some of them if they think they are good enough.

JL: And the same thing has happened with the women's--

MM: Well, it is coming it is coming. Haven't you seen the change in the last couple of years? Well, when people, you know, when they are charging admission now to see some of their games now when that increases that means more money 00:59:00coming in so they build up more scholarships so it's going to happen. There is no other way, they are just falling into that trap.

JL: What do you think about women going into this same pattern as men?

MM: Oh, I suppose this is that age old thing of women's rights, you know, women have a right to do anything they want to do and, I suppose that's right just to me, it's not my philosophy of sports, I guess. I can't buy it and that I'll always have to fight that, I guess. I can see young people having a different attitude towards it. It isn't I hate to see women get exposed and, she said, for instance, this young girl this morning that she wouldn't be able to play, she's here on a volleyball scholarship because she had injured her leg and has a tendonitis problem and she'll have to go very cautiously, well, don't you hate 01:00:00to see girls get in the same boat as men now. Here's Kenny Washington--do you know Kenny our black boy in our program? A very fine young boy?

JL: No.

MM: He's been on a co-operative education program with the Columbia River Gorge Sports Service and Kenny, we ought to ask him this question because he did play football in high school but he decided his education was more important and he didn't take a scholarship in college but he this summer when he finished his internship he went in the hospital to have a knee operation for an old football injury and a month later he had his shoulder operated on for an old football injury and he said, "I wish I'd never had to go through this." Because maybe he's just one, of course, but he said I want to do it at the end of this summer and he has done it now so that I'll be fit for my job when I graduate to go into 01:01:00my profession but I think girls are going to get themselves in the same boat. You know girls now have knee surgery just about as often as boys do, you know, and physical contact in some of the sports, I think, are so hard on a person physically for the remainder of their lives.

JL: And you think it's different for a woman then for a man then?

MM: No. I think women are going to get the same thing.

JL: But they shouldn't?

MM: Well, to me...

JL: You don't think--

MM: --I don't think they should. I guess I'm old fashioned, you know. I am. I hate to see a woman be just like a man. The think I miss just some common courtesies, maybe, have you noticed this more you never have a door opened for you or a man never waits 'til you walk through the door first anymore. There's 01:02:00not much difference between being a woman and a man in terms of acceptabilities. I just still think it was nice to be a woman and have some respect shown by the male. Now, maybe I'm wrong.

JL: I--

MM: But, it's gone and it's going very rapidly and--but, I don't know why that disturbs me so much, you know--

JL: I wanted to say that I find this interesting because you're probably unusual for a woman--

MM: Yes.

JL: --in your day and age.

MM: Yes.

JL: And you were probably ahead of a lot of others in that you got a masters--

MM: Yes.

JL: --and pursued a career in physical education--

MM: Yes.

JL: --and yet you feel this way.

MM: Yes. I do and I don't know, you know, just because I didn't marry and I 01:03:00didn't, you know, and I don't have any children of my own and I haven't been what you call a homemaker in a sense of being a housewife but I have my home and I appreciate all the feminine things about having a home. I love nice china and I make a collection of things and I like I love to cook and do things like that but I hate to see all the nice things that, you know, gentlemen used to, I did date all the time when I was growing up. I've had as many male friends as probably anyone, good friends, some of them are very good friends now and...

JL: What--where did, where would you go on dates? What kinds of things would you do?

MM: Oh, normal, oh, I don't know what kids do on dates now. (chuckle)

JL: No, I'm asking in the '40's.

MM: Oh, we would go we would go to a show or to a dance or we'd just go for a 01:04:00walk or things of that kind.

JL: Where were you living during the two years you were here?

MM: Oh, I was in a sorority house and...

JL: What sorority was this?

MM: Phi Phi. Yes, I was a Phi Phi and we lived over on 35th and Harrison then and almost everything you did then evolved around the college activities and...

JL: What kind of clubs did they have for physical education majors?

MM: We had a women's recreation association that's...

JL: What would you do in that?

MM: Well, there they had it was very club oriented. They'd have their officers and they would sponsor play days with other universities or sports days or we did water shows. We did dance concerts, sponsored dance concerts, and all kinds 01:05:00of things like that were sports oriented and I don't we had swim meets with other universities. We planned the tennis schedules with other universities. Just all kinds of activities like that.

JL: What professors influenced you in your life here on campus?

MM: Oh, I suppose Dr. Edith Seine, who recently passed on, was head of the department of physical education for women for thirty-five years was a very strong factor.

JL: Why is that?

MM: Well, she was just a woman you respected very highly and she was an excellent teacher. She had high standards and at that time she always taught 01:06:00senior courses, you know, and you and she supervised the student teachers that were out, so you did get to know her quite well and then when I came back for my master's degree why she was very helpful and later we became friends and she was quite an influence on my life.

JL: What about on other subjects on campus?

MM: Well, I'm trying to remember, you know, that goes back aways and there aren't any of the professors still teaching that I had on campus because I'm getting almost to the point (chuckle) where I'm not going to be here too many years longer. Thirty-three years is quite a while so a lot of people change, you know, and but I had Dr. Backam a sociology professor, Dr. Backam and Mrs. Backam 01:07:00were very very wonderful people and they even like my being a physical education major we got to know him and he would have us in his home and he did a lot with students just inviting students over to talk about problems and sociological problems in the world and he was a very fine man and then I had one Dr. Reichart an education professor that was an excellent person, high standards but very academic but still cared about students, you know. You can always pick out a few people, you know, influenced you.

JL: Hmmm. That's interesting. You were here when the war broke out?

MM: Yes.

JL: Weren't you? Can you tell me about that? And...

MM: That was rather tragic. All our friends left and we practically became a female institution. (chuckle)

JL: Yes. I believe it. What do you remember of December 1941?

MM: Well, I happened to be on a train when it was announced that Pearl Harbor had been bombed and infiltrated and it was really very shocking because when we came back when we were back at school and, of course, the boys would be leaving, you know, weekly practically, you know, they weren't allowed to continue their term or education or anything. They were called they were called and that was it.

JL: How did that happen? What was the feel on campus? The mood?

MM: Insecurities and, of course, before I graduated then there was also loss of lives and I didn't lose my brother then but some loss of lives but people were 01:09:00very insecure in the sense that even the boys that were left were just, you know, wondering when they were going to get their call, you know, and it was a very kind of a trying thing. Nobody had been through an experience like that nobody knew what to expect of the war and didn't know, but all their friends, you know, were gone and girls, had to make their own life almost in the sorority. We did so many things with girls that, you know, it would almost run out your hair.

JL: You can compare it to, well, you were here in 1940 and then to 1943 is that 1942, '43, my gosh, so there was a reduction of men.

MM: Oh, reduction of men and military implications on campus, you know, even more fellows trying to go into the reserve, the R.O.T.C. and that program because if they could they could go into officer's training, you know, go as 01:10:00officers rather than as enlisted men and so there was lots of marching all over the campus and lots of influences that way and, but, and I suppose as the thing that was most tragic was when your loved ones themselves are taken and like my brother and when he was killed that was very traumatic for me because we were very close.

JL: Yes, I can imagine.

MM: Yes.

JL: When was he killed?

MM: He was killed in '44. I--'43. I was teaching my first year.

JL: Where was he killed?

MM: He was in Honolulu.

JL: Oh.

MM: ...and he was killed in an air battle there off from Honolulu.

JL: What how did the college administration handle the war situation? The war period?

MM: Well, I'm not certain, you know. That's a long time to think back. The classes all existed and, of course, with the university that size there were still men on campus, you know.

JL: They were--what, why were they not-------er, here?

MM: Well, because they just hadn't been called yet. They might have been lucky. There might have been a lot of them that were ineligible physically for war time. I'm just trying to think what effect it did have on the administration. I'm not sure I could answer that. Everything existed and continued and went on and the only think like I can remember at graduation time would be there would be so many men in uniform. You know, they'd go up and get their degree with 01:12:00their caps and gowns on it immediately they would go out and take off their caps and gowns and they'd have their full uniform and then they'd be enlisted into the service, you know, the oath of office was given and was very, you know, it was quite a, you know, sadness at that point that here these many young lives going, you know, going off to war and what would happen to them one didn't know, you know, and we did lose so many men too, but it was quite--

JL: When you--

MM: --a sad situation.

JL: I can imagine. What when you first came to the campus who did you first talk to when you first--

MM: When I first arrived here? Well, I think I probably and if I remember I went right over to meet the head of the department of the physical education program and--

JL: Did you have any contact with Peavy, George Peavy at all?

MM: I knew President Peavy. Yes, he was president when I was here.

JL: Right.

MM: And everyone knew President Peavy.

JL: How did you know him? In what respect?

MM: Well, just as he was a man that was very much more visible on campus and, of course, we weren't as large an institution and--

JL: How was he visible?

MM: He would be, maybe, he would be having lunch over in the commons or he'd be walking across the quad and you could stop and chat with President Peavy and say hello and...

JL: Chat?

MM: Oh, yes, he was a very friendly person and he was a very good friend of Eva Seines who was head of the department and he she was really quite a unique person. There were really only two women administrators on an entire campus. Dean Milam who was head of home economics and Eva Seine who was department of physical education and Dean Kate Jameson who was a lot of was dean of women and 01:14:00they were the three women they were on all committees on campus administrative committees because there were only three women administrators and Dean Jameson was a very loveable person and she was a good friend of Eva's and I had been in her home a lot of times. Dean Kate Jameson's.

JL: As a student?

MM: Yes.

JL: Well, how did you know George Peavy then?

MM: Just as a he would I don't know how I really did. If you want to ask me I just know we could speak to the president, you know, like we were across campus and he had the was known as the kind of person that was would stop and talk with students and, of course, I think our present president does more than that than I'm aware of. I think he's very much interested in students' involvement, but it's such a busy university now compared to 5,000 versus 17,000 that a president 01:15:00could lead a much different role. We used to have student body meetings here when I was we had student body president and there would be general student body meetings and, well, all the students would go just like we had a women's associated students. Had a president and we had--

JL: Wanted to go?

MM: --and we'd have women's meetings and students women would go, you know, and we'd have convos student body convos and the president would talk then to the students. Those things are nonexistent now.

JL: What effect did George Peavy have on the student body or the school? Do you know? Do you remember as a student? Do you know what--

MM: I think everyone loved him and knew, you know, respected him. I don't know the--

JL: You don't know the administrative decisions he made as a student?

MM: No, no, I don't know those things.

JL: What were you aware of the school of Forestry students?

MM: No.

JL: You didn't ask--

MM: I never dreamed I'd end up in the school of Forestry (chuckle). Forestry was the farthest thing I'd ever thought. (chuckle) It still shocks me. (laughter)

JL: I can imagine. I know it was common for them to wear red ties.

MM: I remember that and I remember the--and they used to wear the not only the red ties those big, oh, suspenders, wide suspenders with their jeans, you know. And the red ties.

JL: What was your feelings towards them as students? Do you remember that at all?

MM: I didn't know any forestry students. I don't know why some of my friends were in engineering and business but, I think, if you live in an--if, you know, 01:17:00sorority living you become sort of a, if you're with one group like our brother fraternity were the S.A.E.'s. The S.A.E.'s were not foresters. They were more, you know, I don't know how they all get in our house was diversified but we had lots of home economic majors in our house. I was the only physical education major in our house. Everybody seemed to get I got along all right but they thought I was an odd ball. (chuckle) You know, I was different than anyone else but I got along fine.

JL: There wasn't a house just for physical education?

MM: No, thank goodness.

JL: Oh!

MM: You know, I don't believe in that sort of thing but they but in these houses, you know, where there are friends, you know, if you know somebody then you're asked to participate in rush and if they like you then you're accepted as a member, and the. S.A.E.'s were all in business, most of them, and--

JL: So you knew mostly business fellows that were in business.

MM: Business or they'd have some engineers. Sig, Kappa Sigs were good friends too and we did a lot of things as a house with them and they a lot of those were engineers, so it just depends, I guess, how things pattern, you know. I didn't know any foresters, not one.

JL: Were you still involved in activities in the outdoors then during the college years?

MM: Not as much. Not as much. Well, you know, to the point. No, I really wasn't because my summers were very much spent I earning money so I could go back to school and I think that's when people did most things. Students didn't do the things out-of-doors like they do now as much. You know, our students are happiest if they can get off a weekend and put a pack on their back and go 01:19:00someplace. Students didn't do that in my day.

JL: What kind of things did they do then?

MM: Oh, more social things, I guess. I'm trying to think what all kind of a lot of my time I had to study hard when I came here because I was behind on my studies'. I had to make up courses. So, I spent a lot of time in the library when I was here.

JL: Because you were involved in athletics, you mean?

MM: No. I did a lot with my sports but I also had to pick up a lot of courses, you know, but in order to graduate in two years I had to take I was taking eighteen, nineteen, twenty (chuckle) hours in order to graduate. So, I spent a lot of time in the library. A lot more time than I would liked to have probably.

JL: So, you didn't hunt or fish or walk in the woods or were you involved in the 01:20:00camp fire girls at all?

MM: No.

JL: Or any community activities?

MM: No. I did mostly two years I mostly tried to catch up to graduate.

JL: Were there any organizations, on campus that were...

MM: Well, In the W.R.A. we had a hiking club and then the way I got into teaching camping courses they had a camp counseling course and Dr. Seine had introduced the recreation into the physical education program. She taught several recreation leadership classes and r took those and we did go on weekend camping trips. We had a hiking club that did some things.

JL: But, it really wasn't a part of your life?

MM: Not a big thing like it was now.

JL: That's interesting. That really has changed on campus.

MM: Yes, very much, very much.

JL: I meant to ask you, what was your main sport. What do you enjoy? What sport 01:21:00did you enjoy the most?

MM: Hmmm. I like several.

JL: I guess they specialize now?

MM: They specialize. I love hockey and basketball and volleyball. Tennis, I played on the tennis team. You have to be almost a specialist now because you've got to be so good in one thing in order to, you know, be a part of it. Like to be on the tennis team or, you know, volleyball players now they are selected to come here because of their expertise, you know. They start way back early probably elementary school, high school, you know, and girls people are as, I think, as athletics grow for girls they are going to become just as specialist. It's hard for a boy to be a three sport man, you know, or a two sport man. You really about only have time to be a good football player or good baseball player 01:22:00because it's a year around training program, you know, so that's about all you have time to do. It's very unusual, I think, that a person can be in two sports today and be good. Would be...

JL: What research was going on in physical education?

MM: Oh, lots of research.

JL: In women's P.E. particularly?

MM: Oh, they are always studying, you know, the same things, some of the same things probably they are still researching, you know is...

JL: Do you remember anything particular or...

MM: Well, I remember taking several courses in research and learning the literature in the field and certainly there was everything, for example, in sports like tennis there is velocity of speed and placement of balls and 01:23:00strategy all this kind of thing.

JL: Who was doing that?

MM: All over the country.

JL: What at O.A.C.?

MM: Who were the researchers? Oh, here?

JL: Right.

MM: I would say not very many and that's a big difference when you came on a university staff you were hired for your either your interest or your or your expertise in teaching instruction not in how much research you had done and the research orientation has relatively been recent, I think, in my academic, say, the last ten years. Where a young person today has to--has to really have expertise in research as well as in teaching. In fact, I think teaching 01:24:00sometimes is secondary. How much you have published and how well you're known that way and how much you have done in research.

JL: That wasn't the case when--

MM: No.

JL: --you were in physical education?

MM: No.

JL: There was no research going on at the time?

MM: There was research I'm sure, but I it was very minimal. Most of the staff was instructional teaching staff. Now, if you take physical education over there they have some excellent researchers. Grant writers and some people doing some very excellent things, but it's just like in our department here. It's very important we have some researchers.

JL: What kind of activities involved the community? Were there activities that involved the community in the department of physical education?

MM: Well, they gave the same community service. They still do. In fact, I think, they did more, you know, they have their facilities were more open to the public 01:25:00and they would have children swim programs and they children they still do some of that. Children would have to go to--

JL: You mean when you were a student?

MM Yes, I used to teach in the swimming program and...

JL: You parti---- what, tell me your participation.

MM: I was just hired to teach Saturday swim classes for little children and we they had, I think, that's about all they did in the women's building, but they'd have adult classes, you know, some of the instructors would teach. Open up for a women's week club or conditioning class or things of that kind.

JL: And this would be a job or a practicum or a--

MM: It could be either one. We were paid for swimming probably about fifty cents an hour or something like that. Mostly we were doing it for experience, you know, but they'd have the Saturdays children swim and then they'd have the pool 01:26:00open to adult groups and they had some classes open to the general public in the evenings.

JL: Can you remember any direct effect on the department of physical education when World War II broke out? Did--

MM: Oh! Absolutely, yes--

JL: --you see any contrasts?

MM: --much conditioning coming in.

JL: Conditioning?

MM: Classes.

JL: Oh. Classes on conditioning?

MM: Yes, yes.

JL: You mean for women and men?

MM: For women and men and, I think, that's the main one and physical fitness became, well, also, you know, like a women started doing more things and, you know, you'd have more running exercises and what do they call those things they 01:27:00used to run us through, with fitness, only it would be I can't even think of the name of what we called them. They were like a track, you know, you'd jump over big hurdles and climb walls and hand by ropes, you know and--I'll get it in a minute.

JL: Take your time. Don't worry.

MM: It was a, I remember they set one up behind the women's building and tested us out on it and it was I can't even remember the name of the thing.

JL: Well, most of your classes were P.E. classes in the women's building?

MM: Yes, well all of mine were, but much more on fitness testing and, you know, pre tests and post tests and much on exercise programs more. I think we had moved into more of a leisure kind of environment, play concept, play sport concept.

JL: What do you mean by leisure environment?

MM: Well, that your activities were pursued because you could use them in your leisure time like bowling and swimming and golf and tennis and things of that kind. Dance programs and then when the war came in, of course, you know, I didn't have any conditioning when I first went to the university courses and then I everybody put in conditioning classes to make their young people fit whether they were women or whether they were men, you know, and self-defense programs and that's when your judo and all that came in.

JL: That became popular also?

MM: Yes, yes, yes.

JL: That's interesting. Hmmm. What did you do during your summers then?

MM: When I was, going here at the university? I worked.

JL: Worked in Oregon City?

MM: Yes, yes.

JL: Where?

MM: Remember, I dipped ice cream.

JL: Oh, you dipped ice cream?

MM: Oh, yes, I dipped so much ice cream I couldn't eat if for several years. (chuckle) It was a good job and I could earn quite a bit of money. I would love to have done some other things like go continue being a camp counselor and things, you know, and working outdoors but that didn't I didn't earn enough money and I needed to! That was real, real, depression time too.

JL: During the war?

MM: Yes. And so if you wanted to go on to school, why, you had to and we didn't have anything like student loans and work studies. Of course, I wouldn't probably have been eligible any more than half our students are for work study but you almost had to work in the summers to earn money to go on and that's 01:30:00where I feel my parents did sacrifice at that point when they had two of us during the depression, at the university and I'm sure they went without things they would like to have had for a few years.

JL: Well, you made enough money then to come back every year?

MM: Yes.

JL: Were there war time did the women come together and help make something--

MM: Oh, yes, you work with the Red Cross, you know?

JL: Oh, was that common to do?

MM: Yes, you could go work at the Red Cross. We did some of that and...

JL: You personally, too.

MM: Yes.

JL: Was that encouraged or expected or...

MM: I think probably encouraged. I did taught some first aid and they were giving, of course with they were trying to make people self-reliant and teaching 01:31:00first aid classes and then I can remember a lot of the professors, you know, would go work on the farms in the summer just to...

JL: Tell me about that.

MM: Well, like I remember Dr. Seine going up to Washington and working, just picking up apples because they couldn't get people to pick their crops, you see, because all the young people were, you know, so many of them were gone or they were working in self-defense, you know, in Portland and at Kaiser boat building yards and all that but a lot of people went into self-defense work and that left the farms without people to help with the cultivation of the lands or in the picking of the crops or anything.

JL: So the professors would go up?

MM: So, some of them did devote their summers to helping in the war effort and 01:32:00many of them work a lot in the canteens, you know, they had, see, they had Camp Adair out here and they did work in the canteens and they would help in the Red Cross in rolling bandages and in the blood banks and those kind of things.

JL: What did you have to do with Camp Adair?

MM: I didn't have anything to do with it.

JL: Didn't date any of the fellows or...

MM: No. It really came into existence after I left. Camp Adair didn't happen when I was happened after I graduated.

JL: What were your planes then when you graduation was in '42?

MM: Yes.

JL: Is that correct? And did you have a job set up then?

MM: Yes, I we were very fortunate. It isn't like it is today: that we had a choice of jobs. I had a choice of thirteen different places I could go and teach.

JL: Thirteen places!

MM: Yes, physical education instructor.

JL: How is that? Why is that?

MM: I don't know. There were just maybe that many jobs that year.

JL: There weren't as many women that had your training?

MM: That's right we didn't--weren't training as many majors either, you know. None of the universities were, so, you pretty much could go where you wanted to go.

JL: Had you done a student practicum then?

MM: Oh, yes, I had a term of student teaching.

JL: Where had you done that?

MM: Corvallis High School.

JL: Ohhhh.

MM: We did it right here.

JL: I should ask what that was like before I go into your career.

MM: Well, see you just work up...