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Jean Heath Oral History Interview, November 1, 1985

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FRED SENECAL: This is the first of two interviews with Jean Heath, president of the Barn Theatre of Corvallis and retired school teacher. A longtime resident of the Pacific Northwest, Ms. Heath earned a degree in drama from Pacific University of Oregon in 1932. During World War II, she worked for the Red Cross in India and China, and upon her return, lived in Virginia until coming back to the Pacific Northwest in the late fifties. This first interview is an overview of Ms. Heath's life history. It is being conducted on November 1st, 1985, at the home of Ms. Heath on Brooklane Drive. The interviewer is Fred Senecal of the Oregon State University Anthropology Department.

Okay, Jean Heath, I guess start in the beginning, since this is about your whole life, where you were born and...all that stuff.

JEAN HEATH: I was - and when, I suppose?

FS: Yeah, yeah.

JH: Oh dear [both laugh], 1919, July 27th in New Plymouth, Idaho. And my father 00:01:00was a minister, and I don't think that was supposed to have happened [laughs].

FS: Oh, oh huh.

JH: It was a big - I mean, they didn't have much money and it was a big, big strain, I hear [laughs]. But the people in the church just, they all got together and put a lot of money together because I was being born. And I was real - they - I had a feeling of being really special when I-

FS: Uh-huh?

JH: The little I remember of New Plymouth, which is only three years, but I remember feeling really quite special. So-

FS: And you can remember that at only three years old?

JH: Yeah, I really could - yeah. I have quite a few memories of New - after that, we went to Boise - but I have... do you want me to tell you about one memory?

FS: Sure, yeah.

JH: You know, I'm interested in acting. My father was the minister of the First Congregational Church, and at Christmas, we had a Christmas program, and I was 00:02:00three and I got to say a poem. And I got up in front of the church and I said, "I'm a little snowbird, just come here to say 'Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas.' Now I'll quickly fly away," only I didn't fly away; I just stood there for a while. And I sat down in my father's seat, I mean where he's supposed to - [laughs] - and they had to take me away [Fred laughs]. That's the beginning of my career [both laugh]. So, that's one of the big things I remember about New Plymouth, that and remembering when my sister was born. So, that was quite a lot for me. She was born-

FS: She was born after?

JH: Three years after I was, and I remember knowing something was going to happen. And then we moved to Boise.

FS: Did you have any other family there in-?


JH: Oh yeah, I had an older brother and two-a year and a half older than I was, and a sister five years older. So, we were four.

FS: What were all their names?

JH: Carol is my oldest sister, and Glen Griffith [phonetic], my brother, my sainted brother, the one boy. He got all the attention. And then I was the middle one and then Mary Eleanor [phonetic] was the baby.

FS: And then you all moved to...?

JH: To the big city [laughs]. My father was promoted to being superintendent of the Congregational churches. But still, we didn't - it wasn't so lucrative. I remember we didn't have much money and we - but - and we'd get missionary boxes from a church in New York City because he was considered being in the missionary 00:04:00field at that time, and oh my gosh, the stuff that would be in those boxes. And we got first choice [laughs]. Beautiful [laughs]. He was... he - do you want to know something about my dad?

FS: Sure, yeah.

JH: He's kind of an interesting life because he was born in Nebraska and was educated there, and a big football player and an actor and a musician. He was a real well-rounded all-around guy, and then he went into English and then became - got an MA in English, and then he went into the ministry. And his first job was in Utah and he was a really attractive young bachelor and he was the only - he was a missionary from the Presbyterian Church trying to convert-


FS: In Utah?

JH: -the Mormons to Presbyterianism [laughs].

FS: Oh boy.

JH: And he never had any luck at that, except they really liked him and he played ball with them and directed plays and taught violin and learned an awful lot about - he got so he could tell, even after he moved in Idaho where there - when I was old enough to remember - he could tell a Mormon, he could, by looking at him. I don't mean he was against them, but he could tell. I don't know, there was something about - he wrote a couple books about Mormonism, and I'm ashamed to say I didn't learn very much, but... he was a real authority and lived with them and loved them, but he didn't make them Presbyterians [laughs].

FS: Yeah. What about your mom?

JH: Well, I think she sort of was [sighs] overshadowed by this very dynamic man. And she was a wonderful wife and wonderful mother, but she never developed very 00:06:00much herself. She was always there and we took for her granted. And my father was, because he was superintendent, he was away a lot and he'd go to meetings in the east on - go by train to New York City and come back and tell us about his trip. Oh gosh, those were exciting days, but while he was gone we sort of took him for - took her for granted, and we could hardly wait for Daddy to come home. But she was a wonderful, wonderful mother. But I never knew it, you know? And when he came home, we just did - I mean we just did what he wanted, and what he wanted was to have the family at home, and we always were. And we always had music every night, every single night when he was home.

FS: He played the music? Or-

JH: Ah, well we all learned to play the piano. That was one thing they gave us 00:07:00no matter what, or how little money we had, they always gave us music lessons. All of us. And he played the violin and cello and sang. So the girls, who learned the piano, how to learn how to accompany him, and it would - but then we'd have a gang singing. I learned every song that ever was at that time. I still remember those words. I can't learn a song today [laughs] but if you want to know the words to... um, oh dear [both laugh], "Red River Valley" - okay, that's not a very good one, everyone knows the words to that - but I can go okay, "Nita Juanita" or "Ramona," or just you name it, I know the words.

FS: Uh-huh.

JH: I'm a powerhouse of information.

FS: [Laughs].


JH: ...seems like I've digressed. Anyway, we moved to Boise [laughs].

FS: Do you remember going to school or anything when you first started going?

JH: Yeah, I sure do. I remember the dress I had on. It was red. My mother was a good sew-er. I went to school and I was so excited, and I came home and my mother said, "What are you doing home?" And it turns out that I [laughs], I thought recess was time to go home [both laugh]. I can't believe it. She took me back. I was so embarrassed. But I sure do have some real - I can remember going to Lowell Elementary School, and it was quite a ways.

We always walked to school, back for lunch, back to school, never thought about it. And then winter I remember walking on this crust of snow. Nobody does that 00:09:00anymore. I mean, they don't walk to anywhere. And I - it was just taken for granted. And we ice skated the streets in Boise. And I remember a lot of my teachers had - I can remember [sighs] my third-grade teacher, Ms. Brush [phonetic], and exactly how she looks. Isn't it funny?

FS: How did - what did she look like?

JH: She was fat [both laugh].

FS: Uh-huh?

JH: And then Ms. Norris [phonetic] was so beautiful, and she wore a different dress every day and I just adored her, until she told me that I couldn't sing harmony; that I had to sing lead. And I thought I could read notes and I remember the tears dropping off onto - because she didn't think I could read harmony. But otherwise, she was a good teacher [laughs]. Beautiful. I can 00:10:00remember how important it was, seeing a different dress every day, and it makes me feel bad because I've taught school and I haven't done that [both laugh].

So, then we moved to... I think I was maybe about, I was... oh, was grade was I in when we moved? I guess I was in the sixth grade when we moved to Billings, Montana... because then he was superintendent of all the churches, all the Congregational churches in Montana. And there again we walked a long way to school and back for - the thing that surprises me is we came home for lunch, wonderful lunches my mother would have - and then must have had an hour and a half and then back to school.

FS: Do you remember anything that you had for lunch in particular?


JH: Yeah, I do [both laugh]. I remember pork roast. Oh my god, they smell so good in the-

FS: For lunch?

JH: For lunch. I guess it was really dinner. Also remem-[laughs]-I remember taking a cooking course when we lived in Billings, and I had to make biscuits or muffins at home, and [laughs] I was also into fixing my hair in curls those days and I put on a green stuff on my hair and then rolled them up or fixed it up so it would be curly. And I - to put the green stuff on I had to beat it, the stuff, put water in some powder and beat it up and then slap it on my hair. And I [laughs], I remember using that beater without washing it for the muffins 00:12:00[both laugh], and the muffins that I took to school had these awful grease-[both laughing]. I can still - isn't it amazing, your memory? I can still taste it. Oh my god, it was awful.

I remember that then the four of us, the four kids, were always home then, together. All in school. And I never - I was always scared of boys because one of my earliest memories in Boise, going back, was that I really - up until the time I was six, I wasn't afraid of boys; I just thought they were wonderful friends, and Jimmy Armstrong [phonetic] was my favorite playmate and he was - he had come and we were making nests out of cut grass for the birds to nest in on the ground and I needed to - we needed to make some more, and yet Jimmy Armstrong had to go home and I kept saying "no, don't go home!" And my father 00:13:00came up and said, in a way that really made me feel bad, "well, if you didn't insist, maybe he'd stay, if you didn't ask him so much." And anyway, I got the idea that I wasn't supposed to feel natural. And you know, from then on I didn't talk to boys. Not at all. All through high school.

I don't mean I have to blame him for all of that, but it's all of a sudden boys were different than girls and I wasn't supposed to-and in Montana, I would walk across the street rather than speak to anybody. I mean, male. And the boys across the street made fun of me. They said, "There goes" - my name was Rice in those days, Jean Rice - "there goes Miss Rice, puffed up, puffed up 10-times her normal size" [both laugh]. Those awful boys [laughs].

But I played a lot of tennis. My father was a - he not only loved music, he 00:14:00loved tennis - and he taught. He'd stay, give us so much time on the tennis courts. I mean, he played with us, all four of us. He taught us from scratch, and played and played all our life, I mean all of our time at home. We always used - spent a lot of time with him on the tennis courts. And I don't see that happening very much anymore, just unlimited time and attention. And we all got pretty good. We made root beer. We made our own root beer, and that was what we liked to drink when we - we'd go to the tennis courts in Billings at 6:30 in the morning, come back and drink homemade root beer. Hmm [smacks lips]. And never got tired of - I mean, a long walk to the tennis courts, long walks back. We really valued that.

I can't play anymore, but my other, my - everybody else in my family still 00:15:00plays, and plays well. I just happened to wreck my knee at an early age. But I'm still hobbling around. I'm skipping [both laugh]. This isn't being in the right chronological order [Fred laughs]. Here I already am hobbling. I do chatter [laughs].

FS: And then after Montana, where did y'all go?

JH: Okay, I had a year and a half of high school in Montana and then we moved to Seattle. [Blows air] Billings Montana at that time was only 18,000 and it was just a nice comfortable little town, and then to move to Seattle, oh my god. And the climate, the combination of this huge, huge school, Roosevelt High School in 00:16:00the University District, not knowing the - I will never forget that, the horror of going to a brand-new school again. I just sort of got used to high school in Billings, and this is such an immense school, and I literally hardly spoke to anybody, boy or girl [laughs]. And then we had to move after that first year and I had to get started in a new school in Mount Baker district, which is called Franklin, near Lake Washington. And that was really tough, going to three different high schools.

And I, at Franklin, I - well, I guess Roosevelt too - I did a lot of athletics. All through high-all through school I would. I was really good at basketball and tennis, basketball especially.

FS: You played for the school teams?


JH: Yeah.

FS: Yeah?

JH: Yeah. That was my - and I... I just discovered how interested I was in drama when I was a senior at Franklin. One of the things that sort of interested me about what happened, as far as school was concerned, I was a very, very careful student when I first started, and very meticulous and kind of a good housekeeper and really helped around the house. And when I was in the fourth grade, they needed to - the class was too big, so they pushed a few of us ahead, and I skipped a grade and I wasn't quite on top of things, and I never did learn to be a meticulous student again. I was just sort of a slob. Not quite with it. And I got through high school in three and a half years instead of the four, and I 00:18:00should have got-at that time you could take post-graduate work in high school and I should have because I was just really immature. I mean, I should have never have gone to college.

But my sister, my younger sister and I, didn't get along very well, and she was lots more confident and socially adept, and she was the only person that didn't cooperate at night and sing with Papa [Fred laughs]. She just did what she jolly well pleased, and I didn't approve of that [laughs]. Anyhow, that - my folks thought - I thought I want-I really wanted to take graduate work at high school before I went to college, but they thought I should get out of the house and out of the influence of my sister [laughs]. So, they sent me off to college without ever having had a date in my life [Fred laughs] and not - and being scared to 00:19:00death, and it was tough. It was really - I mean, the beginnings of college.

I went to Pacific University in Forest Grove. I think it had 380 students, and it was really ideal for me. I had a wonderful time. And then I got to do all the acting I wanted. I was a big frog in a teeny puddle and finally, finally got so I wasn't so afraid of boys, and so school was fun after all. But I sure didn't like it the first year. I was all set to go home, but my - and I wrote my family I was coming home, but my roommate knew was I writing and hid the letter [both laugh], so I stayed.

FS: Who was your roommate at the time?

JH: Well, her name was Jean Allen [phonetic], and she - my brother was going - 00:20:00my sainted brother was going to the same school. He was a bigshot junior when I was a freshman and oh, he had all the offices and big fraternity-we had fraternities and sororities. They were not nationals, they just - we'd sort of pretend [Fred laughs]. And I didn't - I rarely - I didn't see very much of him, but he and my roommate went together and they... a really happy couple. She was a minister's daughter too. But I did a lot of athletics in school. I was on the basketball team and we'd come to Corvallis and come to - no, we didn't come to Corvallis, we came to Linfield - but we'd come to Corvallis for tennis. It just 00:21:00seems really weird to think that I was playing tennis here after so many years ago, and I can't connect it with anything I see now.

FS: That - yeah, that would be kind of weird.

JH: At college was sort of a place where I went through my teenage growing, adolescence, and I don't think that's what it's supposed to be. I remember I had a... took a course in mental hygiene when I was a senior, and one of the things we had to do was write a case history of ourselves.

FS: Mm-hmm.

JH: [Laughs] and... I was preparing to teach, and I was going to teach the next year, I mean as soon as I graduated, and this woman said, "You know, you are four years behind your normal emotional development. I shudder to think what's 00:22:00going to happen."

FS: Oh.

JH: And it was true! I shouldn't - they should never have let me out. They only had you practice teach for six weeks, and in my case, the teacher that I was working under had everything outlined down to - he didn't let me do a thing. He just gave me lots of stacks of mimeographed sheets. We were teaching A Tale of Two Cities, I'd ask questions, and they'd answer. I did - he gave me an A and said I was one of the best students. I really got a lot of my attention from my supervisor and thought I had done so wonderfully. I had done nothing for six weeks, to learn anything [Fred laughs]. And they put me out in the cold, cold. Not cold, I mean they just accepted me, but I didn't know anything. I think - I feel real good about the progress made in teaching, the preparation that kids 00:23:00have. They have a chance to find out if they really like it now, right away, don't they? I mean, they don't wait until their seniors. They start I think the second year.

FS: Yeah, I think.

JH: So, there are a lot of good things.

FS: Yeah.

JH: So...I guess college taught me a little bit about feeling competent with people, a little bit less shy, but really taught - I realized I really loved drama more than anything. And I had a teacher that wanted me to go on with it, and he also wanted to marry me, and he had it all planned out how I would - where I would get my training and what I'd do this summer, what summer stalk 00:24:00because he-

FS: What was his name?

JH: His name was Larry Wismer.

FS: Uh-huh.

JH: And he - before any of that could happen, World War - see, I graduated in '40, 1940, and he was whisked off to Africa. And I knew I would never marry him, so we didn't stay engaged very long. But he always said, "You know, you're going to really regret it if you don't follow up on what you want to do." And he's right, you know, if you really love something, you got to make the sacrifice. It can't come easy. And I'll always regret that I didn't give it all I had, in drama.

But I taught school a couple of years and it was disastrous. I was not prepared and I had terrible discipline problems. First year I taught in Dufur, Oregon. I 00:25:00think there were 108 people in that town [both laugh]. And I taught second-year Latin, after [stumbles] - after only having had two years in high school. I had a pony who I called, I guess it was Caesar, and everybody wanted to rent my pony, but [laughs] - and there was hardly anything I didn't teach. I mean, so many courses, and directed plays and directed the Glee Club. And some of my students were older than me [both laugh]. And I had no discipline.

And in spite of - and I lost that job. I'm - oh, gee, this is awful to say - I lost the job because I didn't have - I just couldn't handle the kids. And yet, I got good recommendations. And the next job I applied for was in Milwaukie and it 00:26:00was a big school and a wonderful drama department, and I told them I had no discipline and they hired me anyway [Fred laughs]. I just wasn't prepared to teach. It was really bad. I sure don't recommend teaching unless you're ready for it. Whew. I directed You Can't Take It With You in Milwaukie, Oregon. And there was no discipline at all in the whole school. You couldn't send anybody in the office.

FS: You couldn't?

JH: Because nothing would - no, they had nothing. I mean, there was a man that was principal that didn't have any... he was quite old and didn't - he wouldn't - I just couldn't send them. There was no backup at all.

FS: Do you remember who he was?

JH: No, I don't [laughs].

FS: Oh, you don't?

JH: I don't remember his name. I probably wouldn't tell you, if I did [both laugh]. Oh, but I was so ill-prepared. Anyway, I quit teaching and went back to 00:27:00school to - the only thing I wanted to do was act, so I went back to University of Washington to get a master's in drama, and also a teacher's certificate. I still hadn't learned my lesson. And all I wanted to do was act. I didn't want to take all those courses in education. But I got all my work done for a master's and then I tried out for a - I got parts in-

FS: You got a master's in drama then?

JH: Yeah, I didn't get it, I did all of the coursework and I did - what I wanted to do was try out for plays. They had two theaters then on campus, and there was one other theater in the University District, and that was all they had in Seattle then, the Showboat, Penthouse and the Repertory Theater in the 00:28:00University District. And so, those were practically professional theaters. They had people on campus that used - they used professors and they used people that were just taking courses forever just to act, and it was really a star system. And I was a little frog in a huge puddle and I only got small parts. And I really wanted a certain role, Claudia, and I didn't get it and I cried for three days and then decided I was going to join the Red Cross [both laugh]. That's why I'm here [both laugh].

I quit! I just quit. And I was too young to get into the Red Cross, so I went to Akron, Ohio where my sister was, my older sister, and I had six months to wait 00:29:00until I was 26, I guess. Twenty-five? Twenty-five. And I worked in a drug store and I was a nurse's aide, a volunteer nurse's aide, practically full time, during that six-week - six month's - waiting period. I remember I worked enough at the drug store so I had to do an income tax thing, and my brother-in-law still has the records in which I [laughs], which I said, "So help me, I'll never work again!" [Fred laughs], as I was trying to figure out my income tax [laughs]. So, it was even complicated then, I guess. But then, when I got my 00:30:00birthday, then I got to be admitted to the Red Cross.

FS: What did you have to do to get into the Red Cross? What - you just-

JH: Well, you had to be old enough and you had - I don't know, they could have been - I don't know how... They wanted people to - what I was going to do would be working in recreation, and I had a good background for that, I guess. And actually, what I did was mainly play ping-pong, but [Fred laughs], and bingo. But - and serve donuts and get fat [both laugh]. But it was - I don't know, when I look back on it, I think I was still a very shy person, and I just can't imagine how I had enough guts to just say to my father, "I'm going to quit 00:31:00this." I shouldn't have been living at home. I mean, it was - that's one reason it didn't work in drama. They didn't like what I was - the time I was spending. I was still a child, as long as I was at home.

FS: So, you were still living at home up to the time you moved to Akron?

JH: Yeah. And it didn't - I wasn't really free to make all the mistakes you've got to make to get places in acting and just go after every single show because if you're been in one show that only had eight [phone rings] lines, they weren't very happy a-[tape cut]

[Tape resumes] Anyway, I don't recommend living at home if you want to make all the mistakes that are necessary to get what you want in theater, or anything else. I always felt I only halfway tried, and they didn't understand or approve 00:32:00of the idea particularly, anyway. And so - and it surprise-but I was very, very young. My father was God, and I'm really surprised I had enough guts to just say I'm going to do this and - because I don't have any great travel lust. I don't really crave traveling, but I sure wanted to do something in that war. I mean, at that time I really thought there was a good and a bad, and we all had stars in our eyes.

FS: Mm-hmm.

JH: It seems hard to...

FS: Everybody pretty much felt the way you did?

JH: Very few people were... didn't - well, after Pearl Harbor you just... my gosh, I don't know how anything could have mobilized a country like that did. It 00:33:00almost seems like it was so perfect that it must have been planned. I don't see how it could ever happen again that way. I can't imagine stars in anybody's eyes anymore [both laugh]. But at that, it's just, see, you realize what a lot of change has occurred in 45 years because I just wanted to do something. And I was really idealistic and I was going to make things better for our boys away from home. I really wanted to go to England or Europe, and I got sent to... to India [Fred laughs]. That didn't seem very romantic to me.

FS: What kind of impression did you have of India before you got there?

JH: I don't know what I thought about it before I got there. I just didn't - it just, you know, poverty and... and billions of people. I knew that. And heat. 00:34:00And I just... I wasn't interested at all. But anyway, it was exciting. We had training in Washington D.C. and then we went out for a couple of weeks to an Army place in Pennsylvania, Indiantown Gap, where I got my first taste of servicemen and what it was going to be like. It was sort of a Red Cross-type club, only it was USO. Then we went back to Washington D.C. and went on a train, and on the train I... what was I voted by? [Fred laughs] I had a real great honor. I was the pinup girl [Fred laughs] of all the... of the guys who worked on the train. What do you call them? Porters! The porters' pinup girl, so there. 00:35:00We had a whole car just for the Red Cross. We were [clicks tongue]. So, I was famous.

And then we went to Pendleton and I remember being exposed to the first officer's club and how shocked I was at how everybody drank. And I wrote to my family "I am still an orange juice girl" [both laugh]. Well, that changed [laughs] but not for a long time. Anyhow, the trip to India was interesting, I mean on a great - thousands, a couple thousand men, and of course we had our nice little officer's quarters on-

FS: Which way did you go? Did you...

JH: We went to Australia and then stopped at Melbourne in - but didn't get off - and then went around to Bombay because of danger. I mean, that sure wasn't the shortest way.

FS: Yeah. Right.


JH: I don't know why we couldn't have gone to - then we went by train - well, arriving in the Bombay... memories are so clear of certain things. I can still smell it and feel the heat and the colors. There's some - lots of strange smells, and just another world. And then we crossed the country on - I guess four of us were in one little car on the Indian railway. I remember it. Oh, I was taking everything so seriously on how you had to wash everything. I'd wash the banana before I'd even peel it [both laugh].

And then we got to Calcutta and there were - oh, the traffic was going on the 00:37:00wrong side of the street, for one thing, but it was all mixed up with cows and just frantic. But - and it seemed, during the day, just a mad mix of west and east, but at night when you'd go by a rickshaw, it was just totally different. It seemed all, all eastern, soft candlelight, and absolutely beautiful at night, then. I have some good letters that describe especially well how I felt when I got to Calcutta.

Then I was sent by train. Supposedly I was going to Sukriteen [phonetic], which is near Burma in a very, I thought, a very exciting airbase where life could 00:38:00certainly be glamourous, I was sure. And we got as far as Tinsukia in Assam and there were four of us Red Cross girls, and we had lunch in Tinsukia. And when we got there, the commanding officer and the Red Cross woman said that once of us was going to have to stay in Tinsukia because they couldn't - after all, they weren't going to be able to use all four of us in Sukriteen. And I was the one to stop at Tinsukia, this railway battalion where they were all kind of old family man and no [shouts] airplanes! leaving, dashing off across the hump [Fred laughs]. Just railwaymen in what they called the rec hall [Fred laughs].

And it was a great - it was a really nice assignment. I lived in an English tea planter's bungalow with an English tea planter and two other Red Cross women. 00:39:00And he - Fergie [phonetic] was his name - and he - we had dinner with him at night and he had his part and we had ours, and we had servants who'd wake us up with tea in the morning and bring us our hot water for baths. And we'd go to the English tea planter's club now and then, play tennis. George - I met this guy who lived across the tea patch from us, in the assistant tea planter's bungalow. He and another officer had that whole bungalow to themselves, and that was George.

FS: George?

JH: George Heath.

FS: George Heath, yeah.

JH: Yeah, and he was an officer and I-

FS: What-

JH: I wasn't supposed to have anything to do with officers, so he would borrow his corporal's shirt when he came to see me [both laugh]. But that assignment 00:40:00was probably pretty ideal for me because I didn't know - I was so naïve. I really didn't know anything about men or - I just - my real experience with people was really limited, and I think my innocence just got me through it because I didn't ever have any trouble [laughs].

FS: That's...

JH: I sure had a lot of nice friends. I think that - I probably told you this before - I think the Red Cross did a service for the Army officers in that that gave the enlisted men something to gripe about other than their officers, and they really griped about the Red Cross [Fred laughs]. I mean, they have so many stories. I mean, we charged outrageous prices for cigarettes and for donuts when we were - and we were pocketing the money, and of course all, every Red Cross 00:41:00woman was nothing but a slut then [Fred laughs]. You got... you got used to that.

But on the whole, they were really wonderful people. And I played a lot of pinochle, a lot of ping-pong. I was fantastic [Fred laughs]. And a lot of bingo. And I got so fat from those lousy donuts. And I told you about - I'm trying - when I was - well, I'll come to this later, I [laughs], after Tinsukia I was sent to China, and George was sent to China a little bit later, but I beat him to China.

FS: Were you two kind of dating each other by then, or when got sent away, or?

JH: Well I - we saw a lot of each other, but I thought of him as my brother, and I was madly in love with about three other people. One was on the boat and I 00:42:00really carried a torch for him, and he was with the [Merrill's] Marauders and I'd get these marvelous letters from him. He really was - wrote a marvelous letter. We just had a great love affair by letter. I just lived for him. And then there were a few others [laughs]. But George, George was awfully nice but I just never thought of him as anything but a big brother. But I think he thought of me as something a little more because he kept asking me to marry him [both laugh].

But anyway, I was sent - finally I got my orders for China, and I went to Calcutta first to fly and I was - this is a little, little anecdote - I was in the Red Cross club in Calcutta and I was watching... oh, how can I... Melvyn 00:43:00Douglas was in the USO at that time, was doing a lot of directing and stuff, and he was directing a show and I was just watching it. And then the next day I was in the club and I - the Red Cross woman nabbed and asked me who I was, and I told her, and she said, "Oh, Melvyn Douglas wants to take you out to dinner tonight." [Fred laughs] and I was on my way to China that day and I couldn't go [both laugh]. So, I almost had a date with Melvyn Douglas. That's about the size of my excitements.

But anyway, we - oh, and when we were in Tinsukia, Lily Pons and Andre Kostelanetz came to our club. Got to talk to them. That was kind of exciting. 00:44:00And anyway, went to China, first landed in Kunming... yeah. My first airplane ride was across the hump, and lots of accidents across the hump. I was glad to land in Kunming, which is a wonderful climate. I was there for a few weeks and then traveled by 6x6 on a windy, windy, windy, around and around and around until got to... Weiyang, and I was in an off-post club there for about... six or eight months. And that was really hard work. We worked from 10 to 10 and ran a 00:45:00hostel for men that were just visiting town and wanted rest and recreation, and ran a restaurant, and then did all the other stuff, the bingo and the movies and stuff, and took trips and...

FS: For - was this all for American soldiers, or-

JH: Yeah. It was really quite needed because they - it was in the interior of China and people, when they have leaves and come through and stay for a few days, and just for something different. And it was funny, as I say, I was shy, but when it was my job not to be, it was so easy. I mean, it was easy to talk to me, and they were, gosh, what a smorgasbord, fantastic [Fred laughs]. Lots of 00:46:00dancing. I loved to dance and I thought I probably, if ever I would get enough of it, it would be there. And I sure had - it was one place you never [laughs], you were never a wallflower. You didn't have much competition. You have about - well, they used a lot of Chinese and - the staff people that worked with us, and nurses, and we'd have some really good parties. But I still didn't party, I'll you know.

FS: Mm-hmm.

JH: I was still an orange juice girl [Fred laughs]. And after that, well the war was ended while I was in Weiyang and -

FS: When - how did you hear about it, or what happened?

JH: Oh gosh, we'd get these rumors that something was going to happen, and - 00:47:00well, before that I had a really good friend who was - that I'd come across on this ship with - who was what they call a club mobile girl. She and two others would take a truck out and go to faraway places where men had-[tape cut]

[Tape resumes] anyway, my friend, Ginny [phonetic], that I knew on the ship, was going to go out from the place I was - the club that I was in Weiyang with this club mobile with two other women, only actually only two would go and then they were supposed to come back and then another two would go and one would stay. And they were only supposed to go to one place and come back. Well, they, the two, my friend Ginny and another Ginny who was from Kansas [laughs], went out, and they just didn't come back.

And they'd get word that well, the Army had asked them to go a little bit 00:48:00further and a little bit further, and pretty soon they were so far that it was closer to go onto the next Red Cross place than to come back. And there would be rumors: "have you heard? The Red Cross girls just landed on the Okinawa," [laughs]. Nobody knew where they were, and the Red Cross man was losing his hair, what little he had. And finally, they... like you say, they couldn't come back, they were too far, and they were planning to go to the coast. And they had their orders and they got there and they were, they were greeted with horror because they weren't supposed to be there because at that time they were really planning an invasion of the southern coast of China. It was all set and they had to get out of there in a hurry.

And then, shortly after that, the war ended. And you asked about how we heard; 00:49:00we heard a lot on the radio. I didn't understand anything about the atomic bomb, but I remember the guys trying to explain there, it could be the end of everything, it could be - it could cause a chain reaction and we all might go, and I, oh [both laugh]. And it was a strange time, but so, what a relief. We all went crazy. I guess I did have a drink that night [Fred laughs]. I [unintelligible 00:49:31] [Fred laughs]. First time. I never stopped talking all night. It was the first time I'd ever had anything. They thought this is the night! We'll find out what happens [laughs]. I was with just a bunch of women in our tent house. But after that, I was sent to Shanghai and I worked in an airport, and I'd see bigshots like Chennault. Do you know who Chennault is?


FS: No.

JH: Oh, well you wouldn't, I guess. He was a... the Tiger, what do you call them? Here... how can I forget? Oh, well. Anyway, it was an exciting airport to be on because everybody came through. And I lived in a - I'm not - oh, and then I got to go to Peiping and I stopped - before I went to Peiping, I stopped in Tianjin where George is now, and shortly after that I got to come home. It was in March when I finally got to come home. George had been home since December, so he beat me.

FS: Uh-huh. You had been writing letters or something like that?

JH: Yeah, he was always supposed to write me a proposal letter the 10th of every month.

FS: Mm-hmm [laughs].

JH: And I just expected them, and when I got home it was in March and it was on the 22nd in March I realized I didn't have a 10th of the month proposal letter, and I wrote him a letter right away [both laugh]. Anyway, he came out to see me 00:51:00and we got engaged. And...

FS: You were at home right now, and...

JH: Yeah, I knew I couldn't [laughs] stay, though. He came out, and I had a job. My uncle was teaching at Alma Michigan and he needed someone to fill out the year as a physical education teacher, so George came out in April and we got engaged, and then we had a honeymoon, an engagement honeymoon. We went back on the bus... bus? Yeah, to Alma, and then he went on to Virginia. Then we got married in September and then my days in Virginia started, which were - which is really another segment of my life because it's such a different part of the world from the west. And at first I... I was so homesick for the west. But it 00:52:00really grew on you.

This little Gloucester is a very, very small county that's built on inlets off of Mobjack Bay. They call them rivers. And most of our friends lived on the inlets and we went to see each other by boat. And a lot of it - most of the people are either very first family of Virginia and therefore are very high up on the social - whether or not they have any money - or they were damn Yankees who had bought places down there because it's so beautiful. But there - or they were really poor, or black. And we were - there were hardly any people in the middle like we were.


But George's father and stepmothers were a part of the upper crust sort of, and so I was exposed right away to social life that I'd never been exposed - I mean, I had never been exposed to social life, but I mean huge parties, hundreds of people, and coming out parties and people who had money to build a swimming pool for the coming-out party and that kind of thing. And it was really a tough adjustment, but it got to be kind of fun eventually [laughs]. And we had our own - George was working for his father who was a daffodil grower. He had 2,000 varieties of daffodils. His grandfather, who went around the world with 00:54:00Alexander Graham Bell's daughter, he was a real, real wonderful character. And he never - I don't think he ever divorced his wife, but he had a... when he lived in Gloucester he had a mistress, Ms. Fred [phonetic]. I heard a lot more about her than I did about Grandma Heath [Fred laughs].

George's father had - well, George was born in China - his father worked for American Tobacco - and married Mary Bonesteel, who was there visiting a sister in China who was married to an officer or something. Anyway, she married him there and George lived in China for his first five years, and then they came back to Virginia to work in the bulbs with... But George's father got restless 00:55:00and left him when I think he was only six. And he remarried three times, so he had four wives altogether, and when I lived in Virginia, two of the wives still lived there. So, I had three mother-in-laws [Fred laughs] to please, two of them right in my backyard [laughs], the two Mrs. Heaths. The three Mrs. Heaths, and we'd all be at the same parties together and oh, we'd have family gatherings [laughs]. Once I - one of the Mrs. Heaths, Emily Heath, was the next-to-last one, and... oh, I'm not going to go into that. That would take me two tapes, so I'll forget it. Cross it off.

Anyway, we worked in daffodils for a couple years, and that's a real wonderful experience, to know what kind of a gambling game farming really is. I mean, you 00:56:00just - everybody - well, George's grandfather started the daffodil business in Gloucester and everybody sort of took it up to a small degree. Almost everybody had a patch, and that's all you talk about in the spring, is the flower season and how much you're getting for Prince Albert's and... and what happened with the big freeze, and you would always try to beat it somehow, like if you knew it was going to freeze you'd stay up all night with the lights of the car on and you'd take everything inside. And George couldn't pick because he has - something happens to his hands, so I did the picking and he held the flashlight at night [both laugh]. But it was a lovely life and you worked hard planting, planting bulbs and digging bulbs and then picking flowers. I really liked that. 00:57:00And then we had Charles, my son-

FS: When?

JH: After a couple years, and we'd take him with us when we planted and picked, took him with us everywhere. They - I think that a lot of people think of the south as being kind of hard to become a part of, and I think it would be if you were just totally alien, but since everybody accepted George's family, even though they were from the north, they sure accepted us. And I had - gee, I haven't - I'd never had a lot of friends because we moved so often, and the only friends I would have would be connected with the church, and I never had the feeling of being in a gang or just a real snug bunch of people. And we found 00:58:00friends that were about our economic level that... oh, we formed a square dance club and we did all the usual socializing, but we sure - and we played a lot of baseball. And it was gracious, easygoing living. Tempo was so slow.

And the black people were - at that time - were just - you never thought much about it. When I first went there I thought well, I'm going to change things a little bit, I'm going to be - I'm just going to make them my friends; well, they didn't like that too much [laughs]. They really - they let me know that wasn't the way they wanted it, and I sure didn't pursue it. But we, when we built our house on the river, it was - the only reason we could afford that was it was 00:59:00next to a black family's land, and it wasn't as desirable because of that. And this family, the Seefus Carters [phonetic], they had a new kid every year [Fred laughs]. I think they had 13. And he - they would always have their child and then come down and tel-use our telephone to [both laugh] tell the doctor it had been born. And we got along all right but I sure, you know, we - I didn't make any more effort to understand or make friends. I just lived like you were supposed to. But we talked a lot, and our friends really, really didn't want George teaching there, particularly because it wasn't too long after we were there that the integration thing started to come up, and...


FS: George was teaching at the...?

JH: High school.

FS: High school, yeah.

JH: Yeah, and I was teaching grade school. And we had real clear ideas of what we thought about integration and equal schools, but our friends didn't figure that we lived that way. I mean, we didn't even know our neighbors, the Carters. And anyway, they would do - they were not - even our best friends would have just as soon see George out - because he was a principal or a vice-principal - and they didn't like his ideas. And oh, the arguments we'd get into. But I can see now how they feel because we didn't do anything, we just talked, and I see just as much prejudice here as I did back there, really. They - and they... the 01:01:00black people I did know who were servants or - not of mine, but of George's family or - they really loved the - I mean, they worked for the Heaths all at - ever since, and they really loved them, and they liked - in think a lot of them, older ones at least, were very content because they had good jobs and they were well treated and really well-liked. Loved. But boy, they always said Miss, Miss Jean, or Mister George. And even now when you go back and you see the old ones, they still pretend nothing's changed [laughs]. But everything changed.

But oh, I was just about to remember something interesting about Gloucester... 01:02:00Oh, I was thinking of the energy that you have at that age. George and I had to teach, both of us teach because salaries were just practically the lowest in the country, and you couldn't raise a family on one teacher's salary and build a house. So, we both taught, and at one point we were both teaching; he was teaching in the high school and I at the grade school - they were adjoining - and we - the janitor, the black janitor had quit, so we did the - we were hired as the janitor and janitress [Fred laughs], so we stayed after school to do that. Then we went home to pick flowers, pick up our kid, pick flowers, and then came back and directed a play. And George also worked as the head of an Episcopalian youth group that met once a week at the church and they had dances 01:03:00and things that - anyway, he handled that. It didn't faze us. I can't believe it. All the... I never once thought it was very tiring [laughs]. I could do one of those things now. So-

FS: So what-oh.

JH: So anyway, we - I taught off and on and got into - I did a lot of work with drama with my kids in the fourth grade, and also then I went to the sixth grade and then did a lot of stuff with operettas, and then they decided they'd like to have me teach music in the county, so - in the whole county - and so I went - I did - they'd never had a music teacher, so I saw 800 kids a week and all we did was sing all those songs that my father taught me [Fred laughs]. Just had a ball. But-


FS: No discipline problems?

JH: No, no. Not even in Guinea, which is an interesting part of Gloucester which is a... at low tide it's an island, but the people that live there came from they think indentured servants or something. They have an accent and they're inbred and totally isolated from the rest of the community, and-

FS: What - they were indentured servants from England, or...?

JH: Actually they - I don't know whether there is any factual material. There must be, but at that time nobody could tell me exactly for sure. Some of them, the accent sounded English. It sounds just really heavy cockney, almost - I could - very hard to understand. And they intermarried and there were a few names, like Hogg and Jenkins. And I had a job right away in the welfare 01:05:00department and I had to go down to see somebody in Guinea, my first trip to Guinea. And I went to the post office and asked for Mr. - asked if they could tell me where Mr. Jenkins lived, and I got this six [?] look and he said, "Mr. Jenkins? Which Mr. Jenkins?" And I looked at my - I said, "Oh, John Jenkins." [In false accent] "Which John Jenkins?" [both laugh].

Anyhow, you had to say John Jenkins of Mary, or John - and I didn't last too long as a welfare worker in Guinea. I couldn't understand a word [laughs]. And they had terrible fights down there and they wouldn't allow a black person to come into their little section of the county. But then they got a big high school, and when I taught music, I taught down in Guinea, and that was 01:06:00interesting. And then I decided I wanted to be a music teacher because I really liked that, so I went to William & Mary and did a whole summer's work of getting started on getting music credit, and then I had another baby after thinking that I never would have one. It was only - it'd been nine years by then, and-

FS: After Charles?

JH: After Charles.

FS: Uh-huh. And that was Mary.

JH: Yeah. And shortly after that George got a national sc-he [mumbles]... science scholarship, but it was a - well, darn it. Anyway, it was the first year that they gave science scholarships to guys who really wanted to go on, and he 01:07:00got his master's at... at Chapel Hill, North Carolina. So, we left our lovely little place in Tidewater and went to Chapel Hill with our two kids. And that was a wonderful year. Chapel Hill is a very liberal and very alive community. So, lots of NAACP stuff going on and just won-you could do something every single night, and George studied like anything and babysat while I did everything [laughs]. I had a wonderful year.

But yeah, if you get away from things it's so easy to wonder whether you should go back, and we knew that I would always have to teach school if we lived there, and I guess that was one of the reasons, but another reason we used was that we didn't have any job security because he could be fired within a month. Anybody 01:08:00could, if the integration really went through. So, we decided we might come back west, so we wrote a bunch of letters and got a phone call from Corvallis saying that they'd hire him without even an interview, so we decided-

FS: OSU would hire him?

JH: Hmm?


JH: No, no. This was Western View.

FS: Western View?

JH: Yeah, Western View Junior High.

FS: Oh. Oh, I didn't-

JH: He was at junior high school. I mean, he was a high school teacher and that's all he wanted to be, and I don't think he - no, OSU wouldn't hire [laughs]. National Science Foundation, okay, that's what - that was the first year that they had this program where you could apply and get a whole year of graduate work, and he got it in one year. He worked really hard. And he had good 01:09:00grades. He really hadn't forgotten how to study. Anyway, so we came to Corvallis.

FS: Do you remember about when that was?

JH: Fifty-eight. And we hadn't sold our house. We tried all summer to sell the house and couldn't sell it. And we lived - we rented it. I mean our house in Virginia, and we lived, when we first came on, across from what is now the cannery, and on the second floor of one of those big houses, and Mary Carol was only a year and a half, and it rained all year [Fred laughs] and I cried all year. I hated this town, I hated the west, I wanted to go back where people were 01:10:00friendly [sighs].

And... and then we found this place on Brooklane [laughs] in April, and I fell in love with it. I felt like it was sort of a little piece of Virginia. It actually had been owned by someone, an Englishman who had fallen in love with it about I think eight years before we found it, and he never lived in it and he just rented it, but he thought this would be the place where he'd settle down and become a citizen, but he never did. Thank goodness [both laugh] because he - they always kept going back to England. They never did settle down here. They lived in your place some but they never lived in the big house.

And by the time we found it, we wouldn't let them get away. We just hounded them 01:11:00until they - other people offered him more, but they knew how badly we wanted it, or at least I wanted it. I fell in love. I said I'd pick up all the nuts; I'd handle everything [laughs]. Oh, I think George was a little scared of it. It was five and a-at that time it was five and a half acres, I think. And then a little later we sold that part on the left of the lane that...

FS: Oh, the, um...

JH: We used to own up to Riches Road [?].

FS: Oh, really?

JH: Mm-hmm. But we sold that to the people that owned the house then so we were able to buy it, I guess. But even so, four and a half acres is a lot to take care of. And the house is falling down [laughs], in terrible shape. Nothing but headaches for George. But I... we bought it and we had to pay for it in 12 01:12:00years, and we still hadn't sold our house. So, we bought it in April, lived in your house until June and let the people who were renting it stay, and then we went back to Virginia to sell our house for the summer. We just stayed there. And we didn't sell it. We came back and found your house all full of pears [both laugh]. I remember the people that owned the house - I mean that rented the house - had picked all the pears and put them in your house.

Anyway, shortly after that we got a phone call and we thought we'd sold our house, and so we felt like we were really going to live high. And I remember calling the milkman and telling him to deliver milk, and I put on the heat whenever I wanted to [Fred laughs], and then I think it was November 5th the real estate man called and said it was all off and we had not owned the point 01:13:00like we said we did and that the man who was going to buy it wouldn't buy it because that point now was owned by those black people next door.

FS: The point - the point on the river?

JH: Yeah, the teeny little point that we had checked out with our lawyers and with the title people. We checked it all out because there was a fence and we thought that must mean it wasn't ours, but they all said it was. Anyway, so I turned down the heat. But eventually, it all worked out. We lost our shirts, but we did get rid of the property. And so, here we are. George taught school and we tried - I think we tried real hard to bring a lot of Virginia to Corvallis. We really liked partying, and we sure did have a lot of parties because this is a 01:14:00really good party house.

FS: [Laughs] yeah!

JH: It is. But I think we tried really hard to... too tried, too hard, tried too hard, but it was okay. New - we really got acquainted with a lot of wonderful people through - I got very interested again in theater and was able to act in Albany, and then we started a theater here, the Barn Theatre, and a Readers Theatre, and I got to do most anything I wanted to for a long time and-

FS: The Barn Theatre is still going.

JH: Yeah, mm-hmm.

FS: Yeah.

JH: And then I started - we got real interested in foreign students, all these wonderful people from all over the world, and we didn't have any way of getting acquainted with them because, well, every time we called the college office they 01:15:00never did - they had a program through the office but nobody ever called us, so we decided to start our own community organization, and that took a lot of time for a long time. I worked on it for a couple years before we got it started. Finally got it started-

FS: That... that's Crossroads?

JH: Mm-hmm. And then there was a wonderful program called a - an international teacher program where about 30 teachers from all over the world would come to OSU for one term. They lived on campus. And we were really active in it, and then eventually they hired me as a community coordinator. So, it was our job to see that everything got - people, they got acquainted with people, and I got to go on trips with them. And they're older people, and oh my, what a rich, rich 01:16:00experience. I think that program, the entire program, which included 200 in the United States, cost - it was a Fulbright thing - cost - for one year, what it costs to keep a nuclear sub in the water for one day, and so Nixon canceled it [Fred laughs]. But we still have wonderful foreign students, and we'll always probably enjoy that. A lot of them never seem to go away [both laugh]. And then George decided to tootle off to Brazil one summer and came back, and then he tootled off to Portugal the next summer and came back, and then he decided not to teach the next year and he decided to go into the Peace Corps, only he 01:17:00didn't, he-

FS: Was he still teaching at...?

JH: Yeah, those other-

FS: Junior high at this time?

JH: Yeah, he was not at West-he was at Western View all this time.

FS: Mm-hmm.

JH: And really a good teacher, science and... he really liked his work up until towards the end when discipline got to be such a hassle, and he felt more like a babysitter. Lots of pressure from parents to give good grades, and just didn't feel like kids were very interested. I guess, in other words, he was getting old to teach. So, he took a year off and went to Brazil for the year, and then I didn't - I got tired of waiting around, didn't know whether he was coming back, so my daughter and I went to England, and that's how come I have the grandkids I 01:18:00have because she was only - I took her out of high school - we were only going to - she stayed six months, I mean one term, but she fell in love with the farm we lived in, so she talked us into letting her stay the whole year, and she never went back to high school.

And it was the next year after that, that George decided that we would take a trip to South America. Well, it was a very - it was kind of a... just a thought he had one day when he was really fed up [Fred laughs]. I had directed a play at The Barn and we'd had a wild cast party and he didn't like it, and the next day he says, "Let's get out of here," [laughs] and that was in September. And so, in - and I was in a weakened condition, so I said okay [Fred laughs]. And so, by 01:19:00November we had our VW bus ready to go all the way to the tip of Chile, and the only time we had to get on a boat was in Panama, to Colombia.

So, we had a whole year with my daughter Mary and a neighbor girl, a friend of hers who slept on top of the bus, and we slept inside. And we usually camped and had a - I didn't want to go but I was sure glad I did. It was really mind-boggling. I've always sort of dehumanized any part of the world I don't know anything about, and I sure can't do that anymore with anything south of us. And I feel really lucky. We had three months in Argentina and then came back. Is 01:20:00that about all?

FS: [Laughs]

JH: Do I - [laughs]-and then came back and... I had... it was my turn to tootle off. I tootled off to [laughs], to San Rafael, California, and then came tootling back six months later. And by then, George had given up teaching and was just working with his stocks and bonds. So, we ended up, by the - I forgot to tell you my son got married long ago and we have three grandchildren. He lives in Canada. He wasn't a draft dodger, but because he had an injury on his foot when he went to college in Antioch - he went to Antioch for two years, long enough to find out that he didn't know what he wanted to do [both laugh]. So, 01:21:00then he went to Canada as a landed immigrant and has been there ever since. He's a potter, and also a tree planter, and he has three wonderful kids and a wonderful wife.

Now, what was I going to say about Charles? I lost my train of thought. I just realized I hadn't told you about my wonderful son. But any-oh, okay, by then George has retired and the kids were away, so we had to learn to get along with each other, and our renters [laughs]. And that's a new experience, to live 24 hours a day with each other. I continued to be active, though, in theater and Crossroads. And he very active with Crossroads, and he always put the chairs up 01:22:00for the Unitarians. He didn't go to church, but he put the chairs up [both laugh]. And then...

FS: And you went to Seattle for-

JH: Oh yeah, then I tootled off again [laughs]. I really wanted to learn more about theater. I was sick and tired of not doing very much. So, I decided to take a year off and live in Seattle and study some more and try out for everything in town. And I did, and a couple of times I got called back [laughs], but everything is really professional there by now. They sure have more than three theaters, and all of them are partly professional. And I would like to - I think if I - I know I could have gotten into it eventually if I had stayed because they don't have too many people my age, and I was encouraged to stay. 01:23:00But I really realized I didn't want to live in Seattle, and I really wanted to live on Brooklane, so I came back ready to stay in Seattle [sic] and really work hard on reviving The Barn and working on Beyond War and Crossroads.

And by that time, George had decided he wanted to go to China and he, for three years, applied for jobs and, just very recently - well, this summer - he got himself a job in Tianjin. And it was the same town where a Chinese woman lives that had lived with us, so he had a family that he knew in that town, which is wonderful, and he's teaching English. He - I forgot to say that a lot of his work in the last three years with Crossroads has been teaching English to wives of foreign students who needed help, and he got to be really good. And that's 01:24:00what he's doing in China. So, that's it, I think. Don't you suppose [laughs]?

FS: Well, how about-

JH: Religion, I noticed [laughs].

FS: Oh, religion was - oh yeah, that was on the list. Well yeah, what's - can you say something kind of about your philosophy or about your feelings about how your life has been or whatever?

JH: Well, I keep thinking I'm going to grow up tomorrow or find out what I'm supposed to do, and I don't have a sense of having found out. But lately, I... living alone has been really a new experience, and I think I'm beginning to have a philosophy. And as part of it is... I've been helped a lot by books by Shirley 01:25:00MacLaine and by a book I read recently called Love Is Letting Go of Fear, and another one called Teach Only Love, and I really think that human beings are - the essence of us is love. I really think that. And if you - which means you love yourself as well as others and that all the evil of the world is the absence of the awareness of that.

And when I can stop and... and remember that and fill myself with the light that I know is there, then I don't hate anybody and I don't feel paranoid, and I like myself, and whatever is okay. And I know that if I can live that moment, this 01:26:00moment, without any guilt about the past or fear about the future, if I could learn to do that, well I'd think I learned everything I was supposed to know. And it doesn't matter whether I'm a success - I would be a success if I could do that. So, I'm working on that. I feel pretty good about learning that, although I forget it [both laugh]. And I hope - I think you are bound to forget it. I've always been paranoid, but I don't really think I am anymore. And I know that when I can... I look at people that normally I would label, and try to look at them, at the love in them without the label; then I can communicate. This labeling stuff is just for the birds, and that's what we live with constantly 01:27:00and we have to fight it.

And I think it's we all ought to jolly well get in there and try to learn this because the labeling is going to do us in if we let it happen. We have to change our way of thinking. That's what I think. But I can't - I also don't think it... I think it's a mis-a waste of time for me to worry about the condition of the world when I haven't really done my own homework. So, it makes me feel less impotent, to know I've got a little bit of work to do yet before I'm perfect [both laugh]. That's it.

FS: Thanks, Jean.

JH: Yeah.