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Clara Pratt Oral History Interview, February 2, 2010

Oregon State University
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CP: So you are in DHE, the two of you?

PT and AK: MM-Hmm.

AK: I'm merchandising.

PT: And I'm housing.

CP: Cool. Good. And you're HDFS?

KL: Yes.

CP: In Family Studies?

KL: Mm-Hmm.

CP: Cool. Good.

PT: Mm-k. Is it on, Kendra?

KL: Um, it's counting so we're good.

PT: Alright we're going.

AK: Ok

PT: So, I guess basically we need to get the general information out of the way.

CP: Right.

PT: In that we need to know who you are, and where you were born perhaps, and how you found yourself here in Corvallis at OSU.

CP: Uh, my name's Clara Pratt. And I was born in Boise, Idaho. And I was adopted when I was 2 days old.

AK: Two days?

CP: Two days old. Yeah, my parents, my birth parents, weren't married, and it was after the end of WWII, in 1948. And uh, my mother, that's uh, when I talk 00:01:00about my mother and dad it's always my adopted, adopted me. They took care of my birth mother for awhile for a few months of her pregnancy. She apparently was from a little town in Southern Idaho, probably a good Mormon girl, who got pregnant and had a couple other kids already. And her husband was still in Europe in the war and she got pregnant. So they ... I was a few days old. I was a really cute baby by the way.

Group: [Laugh]

CP: Too bad I don't have pictures. Great big eyes and they adopted me. Then a month later they adopted my brother.

CP: And he was the result of a fallen through adoption, that some of their friends had arranged for. And then at the last minute they decided they couldn't take him. So--

PT: So your brother than would be older than yourself?

CP: No, he's a month younger than I am.

PT: Oh.

CP: He was born May 2nd; I was born March 30th.

Group: Ok.

CP: So we grew up like twins, everybody always called us the twins.


CP: It's terrible because he's a whole foot shorter than me.

Group: [laugh]

CP: And light brown hair and blue eyes. But uh, people were always obsessed with finding some similarities. They'd say "Oh, it's your hands; your hands are the same."

PT: Mm-hmm.

CP: "Ok, fine, whatever you say."

Group: [laugh]

CP: [--..] little joke. So that's where I grew up. I, uh, my adopted parents had a small café that they, at the time the adopted me and my brother. And so my mother worked as a waitress and my dad was the cook. And when I was about, I guess 4 or 5 months old, they decided it was just too hard to work there cuz both of them working and two kids.

PT: Right. Two babies.

KL: Yeah.

CP: So they bought a trailer and a truck and Dad sold war surplus. This is all sort of cohort stuff, you know. So, the end of WWII there was a lot of left over tents and uh, tanks. Not, not Army tanks.


PT: Mm-hmm. Like big water tanks.

CP: Big water tanks and stuff. So my dad peddled those all over Idaho and Oregon and Northern California and Nevada and we moved around a lot when I was. Then when I was six we moved back to Boise and settled again. I was born in Boise. In Southern Boise. And they actually got the café again. So I grew up in --.

PT: The same café?

CP: The same café.

KL: Wow.

CP: Yep. And uh, they worked there until they were too old to work there anymore. I went to school, my brother and I were always really good students and to entertain ourselves during the week we'd go to school and they we'd go to the library. The Carnegie Library. I always loved Mr. Carnegie. Because there's a public library called the Carnegie that he founded. Uh, when they were building library's all over. They uh, so I spent a lot of time there, I was always real 00:04:00academic. I knew that I didn't want to be poor, which is what we were. We lived in this little trailer and didn't have any money. And I didn't want to work as hard as my mom and dad did. So I always wanted to go to school. Always wanted to be an attorney or a professor. I don't know how I knew what the hell a professor was.

CP: I didn't have a clue. Not a teacher, but a professor. I must have seen a movie or something. We went to a lot of movies, because that was the babysitter on Saturdays. The 25 cent movie theatre.

AK: So that was black and white movies?

CP: Oh yeah, yeah.

AK: Did they have--.?

CP: They had the news reels; you know the old news reels. I know all the great movies.

PT: And did you graduate then from high school?

CP: Oh, God. Graduate high school. I was born in '48 so 18 years later then. '66.

AK: That's when my mom was born, in '48.

CP: Yeah

KL: My mom too.

CP: Yeah, yeah. Part of that early birth cohort, you know the, the baby boomers.


KL: Yeah.

CP: Yeah. And so I graduated in '66. And I really was a really good student so I applied to go to college, got a scholarship at Gonzaga University. I was obstensively Catholic. You know, the Pope says you are always Catholic once you're Catholic.

Group: laugh

CP: I didn't see it like that. I was a bit of a rebel, in '66 after all.

AK: Well, yeah.

Group: Laugh

CP: So I went to school at Gonzaga in Psych and Political Science major. And uh enjoyed that, I worked uh. Actually, I decided that Gonzaga was a funky little school because it was small classes. So I came over here to visit a friend of mine from high school. And [?] University of Oregon for about a week. [Loud clanking, can't hear]. And I decided that I was getting a really good deal. U of 00:06:00O was just huge. Their Abnormal Psych class that I sat in on was like 400-500 students.

Group: Oh my gosh

CP: That was back in the, the 60's.

Group: Oh man, wow.

CP: And, I knew I didn't like that. My biggest class at Gonzaga was 45 or 50 students, and that was in Chemistry.

KL: wow.

CP: So I went back to Gonzaga and stopped complaining.

Group: laugh

CP: So I had scholarships and I always worked. Worked as a waitress, worked as a bartender, worked as a maid. I did whatever I needed to--

PT: To make ends meet.

CP: to make enough money to go to school. Then when I graduated I work with ? girls for awhile. In what we lovingly call "the lock up". Which was uh, a facility run by Catholic nuns, Sisters of the Good Shepard. And their mission is, always been for the last 300 years, Women in Prison. And so they run the, a 00:07:00private facility for teenage girls. And they had the contract for Alaska, Montana and Idaho, as well as Washington. So we had a lot of kids from Washington but we also had a lot of kids cause Alaska and Idaho and Montana didn't have any places to put an adolescent girl. So they paid the Sisters of the Good Shepard to take them.

PT: To take them.

CP: So they'd fly in from Anchorage or Juneau or whatever. And they'd live with us*? Big dorms. I was one of the house mothers, which really meant you had a set of keys and you were supposed to help these kids figure out their lives.

AK: And this was after college?

CP: This was at the end of college, I was a senior. And then I stayed there for a year after that. And then decided that we didn't know what we were doing, and we didn't we truly didn't. We were just locking these kids up. And uh, uhm, we did the best we could but they were not, one of them has serious drug problems, 00:08:00this was when drugs first really rampid.

PT: Right. Cuz we're speaking now at like the mid-60's?

CP: This is late 60's. '69, 70'. Yeah. So '68, '69. Vietnam War was at its peak and there was, people were just, young people were just not happy. And uh, although I never identified with this sort of hippy movement because kids I knew that were sort of into that were middle class, you know, these parents were sending them to school and had nice clothes and chose to work?* And here I was poor and not thinking it was fun to dress in the same thing every day. But anyways, so, I stayed there and worked at the Good Shepard home for a few years. Part time while I was still in school, then full time afterwards. Then decided 00:09:00that we didn't know what we were doing. Cuz we really didn't. SO I came down here to University of O. and went to the Developmental Psych program and uh, got my PHD down there and sort of happened into gerontology, because they had money. They ha d, uh, what, the Administration on Aging was pouring a lot of money into training at the time. So they had assistantships just like they have now and uh research assistantships. So I had an Administration on Aging Assistantship. And decided that I, you know I was gonna do, I was gonna get my degree anyway; I might as well study aging. It was something to study. And I enjoyed it. I learned a lot and I got out, finished my PhD, and I was still only 25 when I finished my PhD. So I--


Group: Wow.

CP: I was really young, yeah. Especially for a gerontologist, I mean. It was a real challenge because you're talking about aging and here you are--

AK: 25.

CP: 25.

Group: Yeah.

CP: I looked like you.

Group: Laugh, talking at once.

CP: So really, I have a picture of me with Tom McCall. He really, he was the Governor at the time. And he made a statement one time about. He just an episode with uh cancer himself and became really interested in this issue of how people die. He wasn't terminally ill at the time but he made a comment that he thought the legislature ought to pass law giving people who were dying the right to make choices about how they died. This was way before hospice and all that stuff. That was just starting. Uh, I England that whole. So anyway Tom McCall said, make this statement that got picked up nationwide, actually worldwide, in 00:11:00newspapers all over the country. That the OR governor calls for leg to allow to die where they want. Which is exactly what he said but at any rate --..support it. And he got 700 letters in response to that from all over the country.

PT: And in favor--, or?

CP: Well, yeah, most in favor. It just, it depended. My, I got hired to --. I wanted to go to Mexico. So this how your life takes turns. I wanted to go to Mexico for most of the summer. And I was looking for a way to get at least 12 credits in the shortest possible time. Which looked like this would be a good research project. So I went up and locked myself in, --just gonna lock myself up in the closet up in the governor's office. Read these 700 letters and did a content analysis on them. And uh, published in the Gerontologist, my first big publication. Uh but, people general, people were in favor and it was mostly 00:12:00older people who wrote back in favor. And of course there were the people how wrote back "oh this is just a slippery slope to killing everybody". You know it's that same that goes on. It was really wonderful project. I enjoyed it a lot. And that kinda got my interested in politics more. I'd been a Poli Sci double major with Psych but that really got me interested in politics. Could just be being around the governor's office, seeing the stuff that they do. Kinda of stuff that happened, and how legislation happened, created, and all that. So I sort of kept that interest.

PT: And did you find yourself getting to go to Mexico?

CP: Oh yeah I went to Mexico, caught a big fish. Divorced my boyfriend. We had a great time, I had a great time.

Group: Laugh.

CP: I did, I caught a huge fish down there, all these Mexican fish in the-


[Talking to husband]

CP: Our youngest granddaughter is here. [Talks about cat who is wandering around the interview room with us]

PT: So then um, as you began your work then at Oregon State, um,

CP: When I graduated I had two job offers on the East Coast. And I didn't really want to move, just cause. And one here at Oregon State with Extension Services. I didn't have a clue what the Extension Services was. I had no idea. I was a flunk, I dropped out of 4-H. You know, so I really didn't know. And uh, I thought "What the hell? I can apply for this." So I became the gerontologist 00:14:00specialist for the extension services.

PT: Oh.

AK: Wow.

CP: Developed their first Gerontology program here.

KL: Wow.

PT: Wow. I didn't even know we had a gerontology program [overlap talking between Patti and Aleece]

CP: We used to have a full time gerontology specialist. But then Extension has shrunk over the years, especially in our part of Extension. It's gotten more and more focused inta bits and pieces. So Sally Bowman actually still runs the gerontology conference that we started 30 years ago now.

PT: So what sort of services did you offer then or what--?

CP: Community Education. Well, people didn't know anything about aging. Everything from sex and aging to Social Security, what I might qualify for. A lot of pre-retirement planning stuff and tax? And balances of aging. I really enjoyed that, it was fun. WE got to travel a lot. I met David. And uh, he was an 00:15:00undergraduate in nuclear engineering. And we fell in love and got married. But he, actually I hated a lot of my job cause we had a lot of meetings that were very boring. I used to spend a lot of time sitting in meetings calculating how long I had to stay to be here two years and how many days I had left. It's like a long distance drive; do you ever do that when you're driving?

Group: mm-hmm, yep.

CP: You know, you know you've got a thousand miles and you know you just gone 100 miles so you're 10% of the way there. I'd calculate these percentages, sit there and calculate percentages. Look like I was doing something but what I was really doing was figuring "How can I get out of here?"

Group: [Laugh]

CP: Then David and I got married and we moved to Seattle. I worked at the University of Washington for a couple years.

PT: And did you like it in Seattle?

CP: I loved Seattle. He hated Seattle. He's a country boy. He's from upstate New York.

AK: So is my dad.

CP: Is that right? Where, where?

AK: Um--Lowellville? (Ask Aleece where dad's from)

CP: Lowelville. I've never heard of that.

AK: Oh, it's really rural.


CP: Really rural.

AK: Super tiny town. I've been up there a few times.

CP: Well, he was born and raised in [unintelligible]. So we met here and got married, move to Seattle. He worked for Todd Shipyards. And so he had a horrible commute. Just a horrible commute because he had to go from Ballard Down to the Alaska viaduct? Every morning. It was a horrible drive. And uh, so he couldn't wait to leave. I had an easy commute cause I lived in Ballard and I just went straight east to the university. So I thought it was great but he didn't. So we decided we needed to move. I got real sick when I was up there. I had our first daughter Hannah, and I got gestational diabetes when I had her. And she got to be really really big and then when she was born they had to do a CP: section. 00:17:00And uh I had a massive wound infection. Damn near died, I mean, it was really awful. And um, so that started me thinking about "Do I really want to do this, you know? Do I really want to be--?" I also just, I didn't like the University of Washington.

PT: What was your position there?

CP: I worked for their Social Work, School of Social Work. But mostly taught in Social Work and in, uh, the medical school. We always had an intro class on aging for the medical students. And I didn't like the egotism of the medical school. We used the call it the--there were two kinds of doctors, there were PhD's who were the phony doctors (?), and there were MD's. And it really was like that, it was like these little gods, you know? Uh, it, I, it was in, it was a real- They had these hoops you had to jump through. Everybody was always trying to write grants, that's what would really make you famous was writing 00:18:00grants and getting research funded. So undergraduates got really short shipped, and I didn't care for that. I never minded doing research, I was a pretty good job at research, but it was never my thing to--that's not what where my interests were.

PT: Your interests were--.

CP: My interests were much more applied, in like evaluation as opposed to research. So in evaluation you don't necessarily publish what you are evaluating, you know. Cause you are doing a job for your client.

PT: Right.

CP: To improve the program as opposed to getting a publication.

PT:Mm-hmm, right.

CP: And uh, I just, I just didn't like the University of Washington, I didn't like the environment.

KL: And how long were you there?

CP: Two and a half years. Then I got, but, what really brought us back was I got really sick again. About a year after Hannah was born I developed this lump in my side. They thought I was going to die, they thought I had cancer. Couldn't 00:19:00figure out what it was. Turned out to be this uh--.. well, the pathology report said "this is the strangest thing I've ever seen". Which I thought was pretty honest for a doctor to say. Uh, it was an encapsulated scar tissue that had developed from this infection. But uh, it made us really think about where do we want to be. Realized we didn't really want to be in a big city.

PT: Right.

CP: And I didn't want to be at a big university. At the same time they were opening up the Gerontology program, the academic program, on campus here. And I came down and was the keynote speaker for the Gerontology conference on families and aging. And interviewed for that job and got it. It was kinda cool. So then, so I had been the gerontology specialist, so I knew Oregon State.

KL: Right.

CP: But I had always done the Extension kind of work, never taught on campus. And this was all campus-based. Had a huge undergraduate program. We developed 00:20:00this great program on undergraduate education in gerontology and the whole thing is still going. So I did that. And then Vicki Small and I, Vicki Small was the, at the time had been running the gerontology prog--, academic program. And, uh, she had, uh, developed MS. So she couldn't do that anymore. She, so she took as part-time Extension Gerontology Specialist. And that was great because I had been the specialist, so I knew what her job was. And she had been running the academic program so she knew what mine was. So we collaborated really well. We did a lot of work together over the years. It was really great, I think that was one of the things I've enjoyed the most.

C, PT: [Overlap, incomprehensible talk].

CP: Working with her, but also knowing enough about the other person's job that you can appreciate it.

KL: Very true.

CP: You know, that you could--so we turned that gerontology conference into a really big deal. So it's like the largest annual conference in aging in the 00:21:00state. We thought "that's pretty cool". And uh, we collaborated at the gerontology conference, 16 years or something.

PT: Oh wow.

CP: And we had uh, more and more graduate students that were doing aging stuff. We had minors in gerontology.

PT: That's what I'm doing.

CP: Yeah, good. Good. Housing, that's a good-

PT: Housing and gerontology.

CP: That's a good combination.

PT: I think so.

CP: It's good. Great. [Talking about the cat in the room] So I did that for 16 years and then--when did I change, what did I do next? I guess that when they 00:22:00created the, there was an endowment given to the university, given to the college in family policy. And they interviewed for two years to find somebody for that. It's really hard to find senior people and Oregon like then just like now has a hard time recruiting people because we, outside of the state we have a great reputation for being creative with land use and all this but we also have a well-deserved reputation for not funding higher education well enough. So it's really hard to recruit people. Senior people, you know they're so near, they're in California or someplace, they don't want to come to a state school that looks like it's gonna go under. So they don't come. And its, and people have their families and their kids are going to college and they are wanting to retire in 15 years, their parents are elderly, and they don't want to leave them. There's 00:23:00a million reasons. But the bottom line is they interviewed for a couple years and they never found anybody. And finally the Dean asked me if I would apply. And I said, well, actually what she asked me was why I had never applied. And I said it had never crossed my mind that I would be an endowed chair. I was happy doing what I was doing, why would I do that?

PT: Mm-hmm.

CP: But I knew that I could do it, I mean, what they wanted was someone who was going to be really applied and do a lot of evaluation relations with the state. Which I had always been really good at and enjoyed. So I said "sure" and so I applied.

C, PT: [Overlap, incomprehensible talk].

CP: But interestingly enough, at the time, when I took over that job, that was probably in '95, I'm not good at dates--.Unlike Alexis Walker, if you know Alexis. She can give you the date and time and publication number of everything ever written. Alexis is really good at dates. My husband's good at dates. And me 00:24:00it's like "Well, sometime in the 90's--." Mid-90's. So I took over this job and uh, at the time, aging was really well established in the state. We were the first state to have alternates to nursing homes and community based care types of alternatives. And we had uh, fewer people in nursing homes then than we had 10 years before. Only state in the country that could say that. So aging wasn't getting a whole lot of attention at the state level. We were sort of "Well, we got that fixed, let's just let it run--" And uh, but that wasn't so true of children and child abuse was a huge issue at the time. Partly because there was a couple of real high profile cases where uh, children's services division had dropped the ball. And kids had died. And whenever that happens there's always 00:25:00this political attention.

PT: Right.

CP: Focused on. And interestingly, this time it didn't just get focused on the agency, it got focused on the issues. So, that's--.

PT: That's good.

CP: Which was, how are we going to prevent child abuse? So the state starting putting in money into a program called Healthy Start, which is a child abuse prevention program for first time parents. Offers into home education and support for higher risk families. So they are predominately families who have drug and alcohol issues or criminal involvement or domestic violence or something's going on that puts that family and that child at high risk.

KL: Right.

CP: And the state had put, had started a model program here that's based on a model that had been developed in Hawaii. And uh, they were looking for somebody to do the evaluation of that. And I said "We can do that." So I wrote a proposal 00:26:00and hired one of our graduate students whose named [unintelligible] who's a wonderful person. I'm always really good at hiring people, I'm a very good hirer. I have a real ability to tell when somebody's a good worker. So I hired her and she and I worked together, we did a great job. The state loved us because we did that project for almost 8 years. And then it wasn't fun any more and I was getting ready to retire. So we turned it over to a private, for-profit agency in Portland, uh, NPC Research. And nobody here could believe we did it, it's like "You gave up a grant?" We didn't want to do it anymore, it's like--.

PT: You'd already been there, done that.

CP: We'd been there, done that. We didn't have the graduate students that were interested in the area. If you don't have people that are interested in evaluation or child, child abuse, what are you going to do? You know?


PT: Exactly.

CP: You know, you can staff the child development center, which is where they put the gerontology students over there because they don't have anything else to do with them.

Group: Laughing.

CP: I mean, really. We've had years of gerontology students who have, it, it's not so bad now, but in the '70's and '80's and even into the '90's it, a lot of the assistantships were only in the child development center. See you have these kids who have no interest, zero interest in little kids, or in young families trying to be early childhood educators, it was terrible. And eanywas so, we said we don't want to do this anymore and gave the grant to NPC Research. Which was pretty unheard of, but then about the same time that happened, so Tim White was the President, he was the Provost I guess, before he became the President. He decided that he didn't need Home Economics. Course a lot of places had decided 00:28:00they didn't need Home Ec. The old Dean, Kinsey Green said we were the only major Home Economics west of the Mississippi. This is because everybody else had chopped theirs. It was not because we were so great.

AK: And what was Home Economics?

CP: Home Ec was housing, family resource management, which was with housing, so that's all the family finance and consumer stuff. Uh, design, clothing design, apparel design. Textiles, even though we didn't really have a textile program. 'Cause most of the programs have textiles are in the Southeast where there's textile mills.

P, AK: Yeah.

CP: And, uh, human development and family studies, and nutrition. SO we had those, we actually at one point had 8 departments, but then they kept getting collapsed into you know things can get combined. And Uh, Kinsey was a great 00:29:00person in so many ways. She was really dedicated. But she was a dedicated bull. She was so bull headed and by god, she was going to keep Home Ec going no matter what. And she just--.made some bad financial decisions and some really bad programmatic decisions. And let programs continue that were, should have died. Like we had a family resource management program that had four students in it. And had only had 4 students in it for years. And she wouldn't cut.

Group: Wow.

CP: Because she said you can't have Home Ec without family resource management. Well that may be but you can't have a major and a doctoral program with no students either. And she built the family studies center. Did that with the first privately built program, building on campus.


KL: Ooooh.

CP: You see all these big buildings now, you know, the Kelly Engineering and all that. Well that's. Kinsey really started all that. In terms of being, really going out and being aggressive in getting--.

PT: Right.

CP: to support buildings. So she built the family studies center.

CP: She built the family studies center, and uh, that used all the discretionary money the college had on certain new initiatives and the bottom line was we got into the position of being, as a college, of being several million dollars in the hole. And the only reason it didn't show up was that she had been so successful as a fund raiser. That the only reason-- at the end of the year, okay--..how do we cover that? If we have this much money that we have a pot over here that you can only use for certain things like buildings, or endowments or particular kind of research. But you can make it look like you're level because 00:31:00you can run this into the ground but you still have this pot so if you add the negative and positive together it is neutral. So finally Tim White finally figured out what was going on. Finally listened to people. And he uh, he said well, we got, you know the college is gone. We're not going to do this anymore, which was huge for the university, because that's where all the women were. I mean, literally, not just all the women graduates, but all the women under-graduates. If you just cancel our college, just shot it, which was what he was talking about doing. You'd have no women at this institution, cuz ? women's scene in the university ? So, uh, he asked me if I'd be the interim if he fired Kinsey and if I would be the Dean. And I said yeah.


AK: Of Home Economics?

CP: Of Home Ec

PT: And when was this? Round what time? Ish?

CP: More or less 'ish', it was, uh, around 1999-2000. About ten years ago, and my first job was to get rid of this two million dollar deficit, no small feat. But we did it (bake sale) yeah right. We did talk about bake sales and we did sell stuff, but we didn't have actual bake sales. We deleted a lot of programs. I called a lot of faculty and said, "we need to talk". I had one in human resource management program who literally when I got her on the phone said I've been waiting for this call for ten years. They all knew that the program was 00:33:00failing. And we patched together, we got a lot--one thing about Home Ec is that home economist were really generous. They loved their college because it was like Vasser, you know? They were the premiere students. They got a lot of recognition. Most of them had developed their own careers and made a lot of money or like Mercedes Bates who was Betty Crocker, the first Betty Crocker.

AK: That makes so much more sense now. That they are building that big building. I had no idea that it was tied to her.

CP: To her. Yeah. She was the big gunner. She was the home economist, so she donated 2.3 million dollars to the baby center. That's why it's named after her. They'll name anything after you if you give enough money. (Short interruption to 00:34:00speak to child.) So, uh, fundraising, that's what a lot of that is about.

PT: So you made this phone call to someone who was expecting it? And had been--

CP: Yes, she had a program with only four students in it. And, we, I made cuts just right and left. Reduced budgets and would start meetings --.I met with every department cuz everybody wanted to know "How did we get into this hole?" Well, I told them we'd have one meeting where we were going to bitch. I'll answer any question you got, I'll tell you the absolute truth as I know it, and then we're going to move on. We're not going to wallow in this. That's not the 00:35:00best way to get clean. We going to talk about what happened, how we got here, how unfair you all think it is and then we're going to go on. And in the interim we'd been merged with Education which was always a really weak program on campus. And that had not been a happy marriage.

AK: Home Ec and Education?

CP: Home Ec and Ed together. Kinsey thought it would work, but nobody else thought it would work, including nobody in education. We were just too different. Totally different disciplines--. How would you even make that connection? Even what's considered, uh, a publication is different. What's considered research is different. It was just not a good situation. And they further dragged us into the hole, because in order to make that marriage work, Kinsey had invested in some of their programs. Money that we thought, as home economists, should have been ours. So, I spent a lot of that time working with 00:36:00the interim Dean in Education. Trying to figure out how we were going to get divorced. ? We finally had a big meeting with the provost in the President's office and divided up the budgets at the end of the year. And I said okay, this is ridiculous we can't keep limping along like this. And Tim said, well, what are you going to do now? And I said, well we need to find a way to reinvigorate the faculty and the students and this whole program. And look around, what is a good merger? It was clear that we need to lean towards (smaller) bigger colleges. So, then we, Tim appointed myself and uh, Jeff McCubbin, who is the Associate Dean in Health and Human Performance, HHP. (Mmmmmm, nice guy.) We were 00:37:00co-Deans. We used to laugh about that. Yeah, codeines, yeah that fits. Jeff and I were such a good pair. He is so different from me. I'm like, I'd say let's give it a try. Let's try it. And Jeff tends to be much more cautious. Very cautious. 'Let's think about it. Let's be sure everybody's happy.' Anyways, we went through this six months process of putting the two colleges together. And I think it was one of the best processes that we did, surely better than the merges they're talking about now which are basically, they're fixed marriages. You are going to marry her and that's it! Work it out, work it out.

AK: And they're not really (cutting) saving any money because they're not cutting anything.

CP: Yeah, if you don't cut anything you don't save much money. The point is to 00:38:00try to create these synergies. You, know, so that you are creating this sort of health cluster. And you're going to have all the health people together. But the health people include pharmacy and vet medicine. And vet medicine is always going to be tough, because of the medical school. And they do have very different needs from other academic units, because they do have patients. And they're always going to be able to pull that as well, we have patients. 'Our dogs will die if we don't --.you know--.It's just a status thing. Anyway, so, it's --we really worked hard to get people engaged in that process. Think one of the best things we did, we had a meeting where we had all the faculty of both colleges come. We had them write down what's the one thing you really fear? Individually, of this merger. And what's one hope you have? And then we went 00:39:00around and had everyone say what those were and listed them on the board. And then we went around and (scored) them as what the greatest hopes and fears were. And it was just miraculous because it got it all out there. Mainly because you could see the priorities, what people wanted and we just committed to making those things that they wanted happen. And to make the fears not happen. And then they hired Tammy, which was great. Hiring someone like Tammy from the outside was really important because Tammy was, uh, we needed somebody who was not affiliated with either even though she was a nutritionist. She wasn't really affiliated with either college. She wasn't, I would always be perceived as the Home Ec Dean and Jeff was always going to be perceived as the HHP Dean. So, we did it.

Then, the first year that Tammy was here, which was five years ago. As it gets 00:40:00closer, I remember. First year Tammy was here, I was the department chair in HHS, Human Development. And Jeff went back to Associate Dean for the college. And I did that for a year. I loved it. It was my most favorite job I ever had. As department chair. I loved it, it was just great. Such a good mix of being in a place where you could actually make things happen. You worked with faculty and solved problems. Still teach, it was great, I loved that job. But unfortunately the July after I started in September that next July my mother died and I had a stroke. I was a sick cookie. So, I said, well, maybe I don't need to do this anymore. So, I retired. I make it sound easier than it was. It was tough. It was really tough. And we have two younger kids. We have, our two youngest daughters 00:41:00are adopted from China. I have a nine year old and a fourteen year old. And a twenty-eight year old and a thirty something year old, thirty-two----and our thirty-two year old has four kids. And she has developed a lot of her own really serious health problems. And she was in a really bad abusive marriage, and she finally divorced this guy. And now she's back in school. So we spend a lot of time with her, take care of her kids a lot. Good thing I'm retired, because I don't have time to work. Which isn't true, I still work, but I only part-time.

AK: So, you do still work for the University then?

CP: I did through last May. I work half-time.

AK: And what did you do?

CP: I work for the Extension, as a matter of fact I do evaluation of the Extension programs. I'm still doing some of that. I'm doing an evaluation now for the College of Engineering. And, uh, one for a private consulting thing that 00:42:00I do, with a group down in Grants Pass. And work with, just little different projects. So, I stay plenty busy, but I try to keep it about half-time. And then, I'm still really active in Healthy Start. I'm the Chair of the State Advisory Committee for Healthy Start.

AK: And what is that?

CP: That's that child abuse prevention program that we did the evaluation for.

PT: Do they have a before and after-school program? Or how do they--..what do services do they provide to those families that are identified?

CP: Oh, well, they're all first time parents with newborns. So it's an in-home visitation program. And they actually screen, or attempt to screen, every first birth in the state. Generally get about half of them--..for a variety of 00:43:00reasons. One of which is that a lot of births are in the Multnomah area and there are so many hospitals that only some of which allow you in to talk to their patients. But they screen about half of the first births and about half of those first births are identified as higher risks. Because of poverty or drug and alcohol abuse or whatever. And so, they are identified as higher risk and if they are eligible for in-home services, we've never had enough money in this state to actually deliver these services to all the families who are eligible. It's about fifty percent of all of the families that get services. But it's a very effective program.

PT: So they teach like parenting skills or--.?

CP: Basic parenting skills, and helping people understand what's normal for infants and everything from how to hold them and diaper and change them to feed 00:44:00them and recognize different cries. And recognize that two year olds are a pain in the butt. And you just get used to it and uh, help the families get in touch with services. A lot of these families are really not, they do not have coping skills. And there was a young man who was interviewed a few years ago in Lane County who is a Healthy Start dad, and he was describing, you know, the kind of things his home representative does for him. And the interviewer said, 'well it sounds like something your parents ought to do for you'. And he said, 'well, if I wanted advice on how to beat my kids up I'd call my mom and dad'. I mean, it's really needed, it's trying to break up that whole cycle up. You know, people learn to parent the way they were parented. And if they were parented well----that is how they parent the next time around.

PT: Wasn't it great that he was open to change, willing and trying?


CP: Right. Right, it is. And that's one of the things that's really encouraging about Healthy Start, because these are all first time parents. First time parents, they're interested in learning. They want to do a good job.

PT: I think I got it confused with Head Start.

CP: Yeah, Head Start is a federally and state funded program for early education. So--..that's what I do.

PT: So was there any one aspect of your life that you found the most rewarding?

CP: I loved working. I still love working. The first year I was retired I walked around for months feeling like I was forgetting something. Not really lost, but --what am I supposed to be doing? Don't I have to be some place?

AK: Did your husband retire at the same time?

CP: He actually retired when we adopted our fourteen year old. He never had the same kind of career that I did though. He was a nuclear engineer. He liked it 00:46:00well enough, but he wasn't in love with his job. It was a job. So in a way, if you start to think of gender roles, I had much more of a career, or I was driven. Invested in--..I think that comes from my childhood though, because I really never wanted to be poor. And so, getting out of poverty was, the way to do that was to work. That was really ingrained in me that you, that that was the way I would do that.

AK: S o did you stay close with your brother then?

CP: Oh yeah, we're still (?). He comes done at Christmas and gives me advice on raising my kids.

AK: And where does he live at?

CP: He lives in Seattle.

KL: Do you think that your work had any positive or negative effects on your family life or anything like that?

CP: Positive was certainly financially. That was huge. I mean even now, if I hadn't had the kind of job I had we wouldn't have the house we have, we wouldn't have the two adopted kids. We wouldn't have traveled. We traveled a lot. You 00:47:00know, we were able to help our oldest daughter with her kids financially, socially. So absolutely. And then I think having worked helps your kids see that that's how you get something. You work for it.

PT: Showing that you loved your work. That was a good example, a good role model.

AK: Did you have to have a good balance, did you tell your secretary 'Don't schedule me for the weekends' or anything because I'm home with my kids?

CP: I'm not very good at that. I just involved them in my work. I really did, I remember getting a really nasty note from one of the Home Economists when I, that was years and years and years ago, when, uh, I was running the Gerontology program. I had Hannah, who is my oldest daughter, she was probably about eight at the time, help me address some envelopes. So, some envelopes had kid's 00:48:00handwriting on it. Well, I got this really nasty note from one of the faculty people about it was inappropriate to have this child-like handwriting. Screw you, you know. I mean, you know. It could have been your penmanship. Well, yeah I know. It was really amazing. It was just judgmental. Well not everyone that I've worked with has been wonderful. But, most of them have been okay. Most I can find something good about. She was one I really had to stretch to find something good about. But I tried to involve my kids in my work as much as I could. When I traveled I always took the kids with me. You know, if I went to a conference I took the kids along. David had to stay home a lot, but-- (laughter). He had to work. But if I had meetings I'd take them. But it was 00:49:00hard. I worked at home a lot. And still, the kids would come and say, 'Are you done yet?' And I'm working and it's nine o'clock at night. 'Almost'.

AK: I work for the Dean of Forestry, and he has a four-year old.

CP: So when we adopted our two youngest kids, David stayed home because it was easier.

PT: It was easier to disengage from what he had been doing?

CP: Right. He was ready to do something different--

PT: And you were still very passionate about what you were doing?

CP: Yeah, I still wanted to do what I was doing. And so, you've got the standard kind of well you make more money than him kind of stupid comments and people make, I don't know, it's not ever been an issue for us. But a surprising number of people are 'Aren't you concerned that your wife is going to make more money than you?' And David says, 'No, she puts it into the same bank account that I use.' (laughter) It doesn't hurt him. There's all sorts of that kind of nonsense.


AK: So can you tell us about the two kids you adopted from China? How you decided to go--.

CP: Well, I was adopted. That's where I started this story. I always wanted to adopt kids. I really never had any interest in having kids--.until I fell in love and then I started to change, you know. But it wasn't when I was little or as a kid. I never thought 'Gee, I can't wait to have babies'. That was just not on my agenda. It just wasn't there. I just always assumed that if I had kids, I would adopt them. And, so, we were, we talked about that. David and I talked about that and thought that was a good idea, but then I got pregnant, and we had Hannah. And then we had Jake. And, that was enough. Two was enough. I was done. But then we started thinking, we still wanted to adopt kids someday. I still-


PT: It was a gift that you wanted to share?

CP: Yeah. Even though my family wasn't perfect when I grew up. My dad had some mental health problems that made living with him a challenge to say the least. He could be a real pain in the butt. But, um------he was still better than growing up in an orphanage. He was always really encouraging about, you can be whatever you want to do. You're smart, and all that stuff. So, when Hannah was about ten, I guess. Jake was five. I know this, because, I spaced these kids five years. We started thinking about adoption again, but Hannah had a, she always had a lot of health problems. She had rheumatoid arthritis. So she was 00:52:00really pretty disabled through high school. And that kind of distracted us, and then, when she went to college, she went to college in New Mexico, and was doing a lot better physically. But then one day, it was a Mother's Day, we had the Sunday paper and I opened it up, and there was this whole article about adopting kids from --there was this couple that had adopted kids from China. They adopted a daughter from China. China was interested in older parents, cause by that time we were in our forties. But they were willing to have older parents. So, I said 'well, we should look into this'. So we did. Thought it'd be great. We did. And, yeah, it's been great.

AK: Did you adopt both the kids at the same time?

CP: No, Amae was a few months old. And then, Phoebe was almost two. Totally different kids. Totally different parts of China. Totally different personalities.


AK: Have you spent time in China with them at all?

CP: Yeah. Yeah we've been to China three or four times. That's my dog.

PT: He doesn't like being outside.

CP: No, he doesn't. He wants to come in and jump on the cat. They fight like brother and sister.

PT: They're about the same size.

CP: Yeah they are.

AK: What were the best years of your life so far?

CP: The best years .....I don't know. That's really hard. It wasn't adolescence and childhood, that's for sure. It really wasn't then. That's when, things were just hard. Probably early in my marriage, and career. Where you were still growing. But later, I always enjoyed the challenge of new jobs. Like being a 00:54:00department, being a Dean, that was a great experience. And being a department chair, because you could, it was something you were always thinking. And I've enjoyed retirement okay, but I look at it now as how naive I was as a gerontologist. I used to say 'You're only as old as you think'. Yeah right. You're only as old as the thumb that doesn't want to work anymore because it has arthritis. That kind of stuff. So I haven't enjoyed the physical part of aging. But, I enjoy the social part because I get to spend more time with my kids. And my grandkids. And I sleep until nine o'clock. I do not get up until nine o'clock. It is wonderful. It is the best part about retirement. is not having to 00:55:00get up early in the morning. Course, I'm married to a man that gets up at six. So he takes care of the kids. Which is--..yeah, he gets up in the morning, and takes the girls to school. And I sleep. And he comes home generally makes me coffee, which is really nice. I drink my coffee, kind of, I really do have arthritis so I sort of stove up when I first get up in the morning if I'm not careful cause I'll fall over.

It's nice now having my health back. Because after my stroke, I worked hard for a year to get functional again. I couldn't, I still can't type if you ever see my typing. If I ever do cap locks, it's because, it's not because I'm screaming, it's because this little finger still does not work. But I figure that's not too bad, after all the things that could have gone wrong. This finger and I get breathless real easily. It paralyzed part of my diaphragm. So one of my goals in 00:56:00speech therapy was to learn to talk for forty-five minutes with (?). Forty-five minutes without getting breathless. And to go pissed and not go pithed. I mean, the speech therapist said 'What do you want to do?' I've got to be able to talk for forty-five minutes and not get breathless. Cause I couldn't breathe well enough to, I couldn't control my breath. So she needed to learn to sing, which I'm terrible at. But that whole breath control thing, using your diaphragm. But it's really nice to feel good again.

PT: Speaking of singing, we haven't really talked about what you like to do in your spare time. Do you do any hobbies?

CP: I'm terrible with hobbies. I like drawing. I like art. I like to go to art galleries. I like movies and read a lot. Member of a book club that chooses books that are way too esoteric. They just need to read some things that are 00:57:00more fun. I love to travel. But in terms of regular stuff, I don't do much. I love to cook. But, I still like working. To me, fun is to sit down and develop a course (?) that looks good and actually gets the questions answered. Yeah.

AK: I'm sure you could help us out.

CP: I love working with students. We actually lived in Hawaii for a year after I retired. We lived in Hawaii for a year. Rented the house here and rented a two--what you could rent our house for here is what we spent on a cute two-bedroom apartment there. But we had a little apartment, the four of us lived over there, it was great. But I finished three graduate students that year. One of whom lived in Hawaii. But I enjoyed that.


AK: Where's your favorite place to travel to?

CP: Oh, my favorite place to travel to----I love beautiful places so, I love things like in Oregon--.anywhere in Oregon is beautiful. I'm sick of the rain right now. But,

PT: But it does keep things green.

CP: It does. I tell myself that. (Laughter) Every day. Some of the natural wonders type of places. I've been to New York City and Washington, D.C. . I enjoy that but it's not as much fun for me as something that's just really pretty. Cause I like to draw and that's makes for good sketching. Internationally, I like the cultural differences, I like China and Thailand.

AK: I know that Dr. Burns likes to go to Thailand, or Taiwan, rather.


CP: Yeah, Taiwan.

PT: You mentioned also cooking. Do you have a favorite 'dish'?

CP: No, I love to experiment.

PT: You like to try new things--.

CP: Anything you can do to, well, I'm diabetic. That's another whole theme we haven't talked about. Right after Hannah was born, I developed diabetes. So, I've been insulin dependent diabetic for thirty-five years, which is part of why I had a stroke. So it's always part of the challenge to make food taste good, but not have too many carbs and not have too much fat. It's more that for me than --

PT: More of a challenge?

CP: Yeah, can you make this work. My kids get really sick of soup. I feed people soup. Phoebe says 'What's for dinner?' I say 'We're having soup.' And she'll say 'Ugh, again.' Because soup is so wonderful, especially in winter. It not just tastes good and feels good, but you get a lot of nutrients without a many calories.


AK: Oh we didn't go over where you met your husband?


CP: Oh here at a party, I was a gerontology specialist and so I knew all these 01:02:00guys that were teaching gerontology, one of them was a guy named (Bill Simonton?). He was in pharmacy and he lived next door to David, and Bill had a party and invited us both and we met and I just really loved David, I thought he was fun from the beginning. Right?

AK: How has technology changed or affected your life such as computers or emails?

CP: Well computers, the first time I took a sabbatical I actually bought a pc junior, an IBM pc junior, this was a long time ago, and I learned to type because I flunked typing twice in high school, I mean I was never good at typing, it's true. Come here you're hung up, poor puppy, what did you do to yourself? If I take this off will you stay off people's laps? There is no 01:03:00guarantees. I'm in dog training class now and god I may flunk that too, he is doing fine but it takes a lot of timing to reward dogs correctly.

KL: He was all over me the other day at Megan and Jakes.

CP: Oh yeah, you seem to have met been over there and met their cat?

KL: Oh yes.

CP: My son and his girlfriend have this cat that is huge, mean cat.

KL: It seems to like me fairly decently which is quite odd but I was very terrified to go there the first few times.

CP: Yeah they warn people.

KL: They do they do, Jake was like oh are you sure you want to come over? And it was ok, they did not get along though.

CP: Oh the cat?

KL: Yeah the cat and the dog.

CP: Right, well he thinks the cat should play with him, and the cat thinks she 01:04:00should eat him so. But technology, so I had to learn to type and I just do what I have to do, for me it's a hammer, it is not, it has no end in it. I have no interest in it, things like learning, I have learned to do what I have to do because I do this consulting stuff on excel but it is not my thing.

PT: So if you had your preference for giving a lecture you'd still be--

CP: Oh I'd do a powerpoint, powerpoints fun because it's kind of creative.

PT: Yeah it is kind of creative

CP: Yeah it's all design kind of stuff, but to uh (afra) and I were a perfect pair, cuz I used to, I'm really good at conceptualizing research and measures and how could you find that out and how do you ask this questionnaire and afra likes to run the data which I find incredibly boring you know because it's so 01:05:00precise, I just like things to be a little bigger than that.

PT: Yeah Kendra is actually our TA in statistics, were more of that creative side.

CP: Yeah she'd get so excited shed run through hall and say Clara, look what we got. Oh great--.well I understand what it means. Alan Acoch told me once that for somebody who wasn't good at statistics that conceptualizing I was certainly better than most people because I can look at a print out and tell you what's wrong you know, but that doesn't mean I want to go in and fix it.

AK: So did you receive any awards or honors?

CP: Yeah I've had several awards and honors over my life, I had the Elizabeth Richie award here which was for undergraduate teaching. It was the first big award I have and then I had a couple other undergraduate teaching awards and 01:06:00then I got the faculty service award before I retired because at the same time I was the dean, I didn't have enough to do, I was at a deans counsel one day and they were discussing reorganizing the budget. The way they always had allocated money to colleges was you got 2% more than what you had the year before, so if you were rich, you got 2% more, if you were the poorest college, you got 2% more or not necessarily 2%, it could be 5% or it could be 1% could be no percent but it was always across the board so when people had changed some colleges like ours had exploded and we weren't getting any more money. Other colleges were getting smaller and smaller and because historically they'd had a lot of money they still had money. The university was allocating money from the legislature based on student credit hours, numbers of students(--) but like pharmacy--not 01:07:00pharmacy--forestry is making more money than home ec and we had more students--way more students.

And so Tim White said I'm gonna put together groups of deans to work on the budget. The revised budget plan that's more driven by not just (--) driven by productivity and who wants to be on that and everybody is looking around like oh god they don't want to do that, that sounds bad and Sherm Bloomer in science and I both said yeah we did, it's better to be there than not be there. (--.) I love 01:08:00the little Cheshire cat (--) So um that was really fun, that is part of what I consider my biggest contribution to the university was revising that budget scheme so that undergraduate education was actually valued, you got some money based on the number of students you were serving not just how many graduate programs, Sherm and I worked on that, Sherm was great.

AK: I have heard a lot of good things about him.

CP: He is really a wonderful guy.

AK: He has been there for awhile.

CP: Yeah he has, he has. He just moved over couple blocks over or so and on the weekends his daughter lives with him so Phoebe and Lucy get together and play, its kind of neat so I still see him.

AK: Um, what was your research focus?


CP: I did a lot of work on families, families and aging initially family care giving and uh later on more on evaluation.

AK: What were you evaluating?

CP: Anything with social programs

AK: Oh ok were you involved in any committees?

CP: Oh god, yes many committees. One of my favorite quotes is god so loved the world that he sent his only son and not a committee to save him. Committees can be such a pain, they tend to just proliferate. The university literally has a committee on committees, I mean that is no kidding, joke but I like committees, I like work to get done. I'm very project or, I've had a lot of grants and I 01:10:00think that's part of it, it is that when you work on grants a lot you really get to be production oriented. You have so long to get something done and you get it done. Someone has a meeting and what do they do and lets figure it out, who's gonna do what and what's our timeline as opposed to lets think about it. I'm working on a project now that will go unnamed, drives me nuts, we sat there yesterday with this agenda and every body had to comment on every line of it and I'm thinking why do I come to any of these you know what I mean--I don't care about that, you teach that particular session, you decide what you want in it as long as it fits within our 8 sessions they don't need to have my opinion on whether or not that's the right way to approach your content.


KL: So I think we were just going to ask if there's anything else that you want the OSU archives to know about your time working there?

CP: The archives.

KL: And everybody who will ever go through them.

CP: No, I think its great to have archives but I don't know, it was a great life, I liked it a lot better than the University of Washington. Life it was for me, it was being a middle size fish in a middle size pond or you know I was big 01:12:00enough to make a difference to influence people and to influence decisions but the University of Washington it was a lot of look good, you always had to look good and there was always somebody in charge who was more important than you, somebody who had MD/PhD, not just a MD or just a PhD, it just got tiresome but I found OSU to be really a very open environment where you could influence what was going on and uh its changed a lot over the years, unfortunate things that have stayed the same are things that are I think are unfortunate. The constant, we've been fighting budgets every year since I've got here and that's not OSUs fault, that's, that's its just the way our society thinks about taxes and what we should pay for and what other people, what we should do fundraising. For I'm 01:13:00real active in (--) service organization and then today in our lunch meeting, today there were five announcements for auctions that were going to be held, they were dinners and auctions to support everything from scholarships to the Benton County Historical Society, the boys and girls club, the humane society.

AK: The food share is coming.

CP: It's just we, the Children's Farm Home and these are all (..) you go through the list, it's like were all trying to get everybody's got their running little fundraisers I'm a pretty (--) liberal democrat, I believe in taxes, I never 01:14:00complain when I pay my taxes. The way I feel about taxes is it means I'm making money so I know not everybody feels like that, but its just not free, we don't go to McDonalds and think it's gonna be free but we want the roads to be free and the clean water, emergency services, education.

AK: I have kind of a question too, since you're a graduate at the University of Oregon how does that relate to you working at OSU, and the OSU, U of O rivalry.

CP: Oh, it's actually never been an issue for me, it was when I first came here because I had all the U of O stereotypes about OSU, the cow college but I was so impressed with OSU because there's so many really amazing things and people that are here. I mean its, Einstein used to say that when you know very little about something the circumference of your ignorance is very small and when you upgrade 01:15:00to know the circumference of your ignorance is very large. And I had that experience every day at OSU, there is so many amazing projects involved this year, international stuff and their doing research in vet school on how cow, sheep rumen and how sheep rumen can be used to treat explosives. I mean the chemical that causes sheep not to need to ruminate the same way cows do or something, I don't know all the details of it but its just its that kind of stuff you just scratch the surface and there's something going on, it's a fascinating place, a really fascinating place.

PT: You don't think that would be happening at U of O or other universities?

CP: No I don't think at U of O as much because, having been at U of O their just much less applied. Their I mean, they do some wonderful research, not saying 01:16:00that its not a wonderful place in that regard but I think the land grant mission really is something people take seriously that we should be doing something that benefits the people of the state in the region not just our own publications.

KL: How did you end up at U of O after you went, because you went to visit there when you were at Gonzaga right?

CP: Because they had a graduate program in psychology that I wanted to be in, it was a combination of educational psychology which is a lot of measurement and research evaluation stuff and developmental psych which I thought was really interesting because I was interested in how kids got to where they were. How did all these little girls that were getting (--) from Alaska get so screwed up.

PT: And did you ever find an answer to that?

CP: How do we get them unscrewed. Most of them got screwed up because of their family situations, I mean they really had some very complicated family situations. I never met a parent who wanted to screw their kid up.

PT: Oh no.


CP: But Ive met parents who functionally do, you just don't really know what their doing, or don't give enough time to it. I think that's one thing that you asked was that it is a struggle. Sometimes it has been a struggle to make your kids enough of a priority when your working a really demanding job.

AK: I've seen that in Hal's life, he tries to make it a high priority.

CP: You have to make it a priority. You have to say well their as important as that next meeting and marriage, I think even more, it's really easy just to take it for granted.

AK: He has set date nights that were not allowed to touch on his calendar.

CP: Oh we stopped doing that because every time we did it one of us got sick. I mean we had a four or five year period where every time we were gonna go to the movies on Saturday night wed get a babysitter, we'd get a babysitter and it was the kiss of death for sure one of us would get diarrhea or something. It's like yup, not gonna do it, we finally just said forget that, but now we get to do it. 01:18:00We've never had our older kids take care of the younger ones until Mae and Mae's been willing to do that so (--.) she likes clothes, she likes to make her money 01:24:0001:23:0001:22:0001:21:0001:20:0001:19:00so we pay her to babysit so I don't know.

KL: Well I think that's everything.