Robert Rilatos Oral History Interview, July 24, 1975

JANICE TILAND: And ah, do you know off-hand, which ones they were? (which tribes were first brought to reservation)

ROBERT RILATOS: Well, there were many, many. But, primarily it was the Rogue River.

JT: I heard they were brought here after a war?

RR: 1850-1855, yeah. And, ah, the Chetcos, from California and Oregon. And this constituted many, many splinter bands. See, the Rogue River had three, three main bands, and out of that, that constituted maybe thirteen splinter bands. And the Chetcos were primarily the same way, and the Tututnie, and the Alseas, and 00:01:00ah, then some from the Mid-Willamette Valley were brought here also.

JT: Were they all pretty much brought here at one time?

RR: Yeah, within a year or two.

JT: Then they all eventually took the name of Siletz.

RR: Yeah, Siletz is just a name. Of course you hear a lot of the (unclear word) and the writers speak of the Siletz tribe which, I guess way back in the 1700's or or something like that some whaling vessel or some explorer came through and had seen some Indians on the coast, and called them Siletz Indians, I guess. But that's kind of vague. Actually, Siletz is just a name.

JT: Where did the name come from? I was reading and I heard all sorts of different-

RR: Oh, there's all kinds of things. But, my, my information came from my 00:02:00grandfather who was brought here, and he was a Rogue River Indian. And it was passed down from him, that the terminology of Siletz means crooked and winding. And to me, that's about as realistic as you can get because our river is a very good explanation of that. From the headwaters to the mouth, is only 18 miles by air. By land, it's 128, so I think it's kind of self-explanatory if the word definition means crooked or winding, I think it'd be, fit right into that category rather than the myth that a serpent jumped out of Devils Lake with a white shawl on its shoulders and it captured a, an Albino Indian and, you know.

JT: I hadn't heard that one.

RR: Oh, yeah, well, that's kind of fantasy, you know. And they called her 00:03:00Celestia and Celesta (spelling not sure) and all this stuff, and some of the British explorers finally come up with a word named Siletz or Celeste, or something like that, but that's what you read. I don't buy that. I'm more apt to believe what my grandfather told me.

JT: That sounds a little more down to earth.

RR: Crooked and winding, and I think it's more, as I said (unclear) because from the headwater to the mouth is only 18 miles, and by road or the way the river goes, it's 120 some miles. So, I'm more inclined to believe that.

JT: Yeah, Okay, on ah,

RR: And at times, in question, that in again is kinda a vague area, but at one time they claim there was 36 different tribes brought here. And, I wish I was a little more prepared than what I am. I have a, ah, roll of 1835, a names and 00:04:00tribes, and maybe later on I could get this for you. It may be of interest to you.

JT: They have census's at the library on microfilm. Would that have the-it has the names of people. I haven't looked at it yet, but I think it tells the families-

RR: It could, yeah, it could. This here has been a broken down form of the families that were registered here in 1885.

JT: According to the tribes?

RR: According to the tribes, yeah.

JT: In 1849, I read somewhere that there were only 12 Siletz, that there was a pure band of Siletz Indians, but in 1849 there were only 12 of them because of an epidemic. Have you heard anything about that?

RR: Well, yeah, but still again, that's a very, very vague statement.

JT: But, I heard that there was actually a "Siletz" tribe.

RR: We, l yeah, but that's-I'm inclined to believe this too, that, due to the folklore of our elders, that, ah, I also learned that the first known Indians that was known here, even by then that used to migrate from California to the Columbia River, and vice versa, even from clear up to British Columbia and down. This particular tribe was called the Flathead tribe, Flathead Indians.

JT: These are the ones that they're seeing-- -

RR: These are the ones that they're speaking of. And, here again, I believe this too. And I think there was a migration of Indians that migrated here from various areas and more or less kind of settled here because Indians at that time themselves, were like nomads of the coast because they had access, there was no 00:06:00limit to where they wanted to be. And ah, you know, as far as the Siletz tribe is concerned or the Alsea River, Umpqua, or whatever--and the writers and philosophers they, a lot of times they would come ashore-I think the only ones that had real good documentation was the Hudson's Bay trappers, that really did negotiations and business and tradings with the Indians that were established inhabitants of the area. Rather than a myth of "I'd seen a bunch of savages running through the brush and we'll call them this, you know".

It was folklore, you know, and I'm inclined to believe this, that in the 00:07:00migratory system of the coastal lands, that there were intermarriages even before there was such a name as intermarriages among these people. Even though there may be a bilingual language barrier, but I still think they had this type of a relationship because our folklore tells us, particularly in the basketry, that some tribes along the Columbia River have the same arts as some that were in this area and in like, Crescent City, California. So therefore, somewhere along the line, unless it was a gift of the "Great White Father'' that made these people have so many things in common. But, they are identified as such. You know, so here again, I have to relate back to the old stories that you hear 00:08:00in our folklore. It's kind of passed down.

JT: What are some of the old stories you've heard about the life on the reservation, or any-

RR: It was miserable.

JT: I heard the first couple of years a lot of people starved.

RR: They did, and they deliberately starved them.

JT: Oh, they did?

RR: Yeah, because, see, when they first brought them here it was something similar to the "Trail of Tears" when they moved back East, with the Cheyennes and them people; white settlers, and Indians and all, and they marched them. They did the Indians here the same way. They took them up to the mouth of the Columbia and drove them like herds of cattle without proper provisions. Everything that they, their household goods were thrown overboard and so on. So, when they got them on these ships, they were, what they had on their backs. And the provisions were poisoned to eliminate, because, see, the Rogue Rivers in 00:09:00particular were warlike, they were defined as the savages of the coastal area. And, ah, so this is why many of them never really got here. Some split, some went back down there, some was directed in a different area, such as the Grande Ronde. Some of them located in the Grande Ronde area, with the inland, Willamette Valley Indians, the Kalapuyas and so on, you see. And there again, they integrated after a passage of time.

JT: Was there some on the Alsea? Wasn't there a reservation?

RR: Ok, there was Alsea, yes. And, this here again was one of the native bands of Indians, that this was their inhabitance.

JT: They were not a nomad tribe, then?

RR: No, this is their aboriginal grounds, and I think, thinking back over history, and writings and readings, I think that was one of the biggest Indian entities on the coast, was the Alseas. And they, again, were imprisoned and moved off of their lands, and therefore they inherited the (unclear) of the Tillamook Indians which constituted the Tillamook area. And they had nine or thirteen splinter bands of the Lower Tillamook, which constituted the Alsea Indian.

JT: Oh, the Alseas were a split from the Tillamook?

RR: Well, they were moved. See, they were held prisoners on their own aboriginal 00:11:00grounds, then they were moved, I think many of them moved back. But under the treaty (unclear) of the United States in 1855 and clear through to 1875, that they were declared a Tillamook band: Tillamook band of Alseas, or whatever, whatever. They used so many definitions that-but they called them a splinter band.

In the Upper Tillamook, were the Nehalem bands of Indians, Nehalem and Clatsop, which run to the Columbia River and even across the Columbia River because that was--. The terminology of boundaries was completely meaningless to the Indians. I mean, the concept of fables that drew these imaginary lines to define 00:12:00counties, states, or whatever. See, to the Indians, it was meaningless. If you come from over there, you come from over there, regardless of whether it's Oregon City, or whatever. You know, if you come from Crescent City, you come from down there, you know. So there again, I think it's in a writer's dreams of interpreting whatever you want to interpret, frankly. And this is where a lot of it's misleading, from the early terminology or definitions. Have I got you completely confused?

JT: Maybe when I turn the tape off, I can figure it out. Which tribe are you from?

RR: Rogue River, and Molalla. My grandfather was Rogue River and my grandmother was Molalla. And the Molalla I'm speaking of was the ones that were around the 00:13:00area of Molalla, Oregon and Oregon City. Not the Molallas which is your southern band down in Southern Oregon. They were two different bands, and there again the pronunciation is kinda twisted.

JT: Are they spelled the same?

RR: Well, similar. See, one is even in common language is Molalla (pronounced Mo-lala) and the other is Molalla (pronounced Mole-L). They're spelled the same, but in the eyes of the federal government, it means the same.

JT: Oh, they're the same according to them?

RR: The same people.

JT: I noticed that there was some kind of government order in 1875 to remove the Indians off the Alsea.

RR: They did, they abrogated, done away with completely, of the Alsea band at 00:14:00that time, 1875.

JT: Why didn't they do the Siletz? It said they were going to on the order.

RR: Okay, what they did at that time was split the reservation in half. Rather than annihilating them completely, they just took half their land away.

JT: Yes, there was a million acres?

RR: 1,439,000 acres on the original reservation.

JT: So, was that the first cut they made on the reservation or was there more.

RR: Yep, no that was the first cut. Then, in 1884, they recut it again. They took 25 miles plus, I think five miles of the rivers, of the Yaquina, Alsea, and Umpqua rivers, and opened it up to settlement for settlers. And the railroad company did this, through negotiations with whoever it is, I don't know.

JT: Hogg? Wasn't it Hogg? Wasn't his last name Hogg that was trying to put a railroad through? I'm not sure if it was in this area.

RR: Oh, I don't recall, I don't recall on that. But, Palmer, Joe Palmer was the one, I think it was Joe Palmer, the one that did the negotiations with the Indians. As a matter of fact, he was the one that had them pretty well stabilized in the areas that were designated for them, when he was removed, well everything went to pot and pieces.

JT: He was working for the government?

RR: Yeah, he was the agent. The superintendent of the Indian affairs, or whatever.

JT: But once he left, was that when they ordered the land cut? The first one?

RR: Well, yeah. I think that's - the first land cut came after he was removed.

JT: Getting back to the early, history, I mean what life was like on the reservation at first -

RR: It was hell!

JT: Were there missionaries? I talked to a grandson of one of the early missionaries here, and he couldn't remember, he couldn't remember that much about what his grandfather actually did, but-

RR: There was, periodically, and basically, I believe most of them went to the Catholic type religion in the early days, other than their own particular type belief, which many of them went away from. And they were - well, see the government's intent was, "We'll build you a school, we'll give you a mill in four years time, you'll be educated and you'll be able to compete in this world 00:17:00of progress." Well, this never happened. "We'll teach you religion." They had the Methodists here, and they had the Catholics here. Of course they had the Shakers, which is a, apparently a foundation of something that was brought here from the East Coast.

JT: What exactly is the Shaker church? There's still one here, isn't there?

RR: Well, yeah, there's one (unclear-tells where it is). I couldn't really define it, define it completely other than the fact that, ah, that it was a strong belief of the Indian people, whether, ah. It doesn't really follow the set rules of the Quakers, or whatever they, were over on the East Coast. Maybe the names were the same, but I don't think the beliefs or the philosophy behind it was the same.

JT: There's only four or five of them on the West Coast now.

RR: Yeah, in Crescent City, and there used to be one here, and you take up in Nehalem Bay and up in Washington and a couple of other places still follow the Shaker religion.

JT: They don't have services here now?

RR: No, no more. You see, these people have all gone. They've all gone to California, or up north. They haven't had a Shaker service here for, oh, many years, oh, eight or ten at least and maybe more. But I want to go back to the Catholic again, I'm talking about the late 1800's and early 1900's because the town of Depoe Bay, for example, in Lincoln City, was built by the Indian people. The highways as well as everything else, and they lived in the Catholic mission there.

JT: Wasn't that area on the reservation then?

RR: It was the reservation.

JT: Because it encompassed the (unclear).

RR: The whole coast, (unclear).

JT: All of it?

RR: Yeah, ah, anyway it was from Tillamook down to Cape Perpetua, down south, was the boundary.

JT: What is, well that historical marker on the side of the road for Depoe Charlie? Do you know anything about him?

RR: Down on where? That was a family. Now, ah, that's kinda a-I'd have to refer back to my notes or wherever I put that. See, Depoe Charlie I believe was originators on the Yaquina Bay and I believe that ah-. And there was another man 00:20:00here by the name of Charlie Depoe.

JT: He wasn't the same man?

RR: Not the same man. See one was an educated teacher, he was a school teacher. And, the other one, he was a businessman. And I don't know if both these people were Indians or not. I know one of them was.

JT: They said they didn't know-

RR: Charlie Depoe was a teacher.

JT: Charlie Depoe was?

RR: Yeah.

JT: Either on the marker or on another source I got, it said that he was either associated with the early day army, or was a-

RR: Well, I think he was a British, and not British, yeah, British soldier. But I think he had something to do with the first founding of, of the first fort on 00:21:00the Yaquina River. Now, that may not be true either, I'd have to refer back. -When we talk about the same two people, now, that confuses me too.

JT: Do you know which one is which though, in your notes?

RR: Yeah, well, Charlie Depoe definitely was an Indian. Depoe Charlie, whether he was or not, that I couldn't say off hand. (unclear sentence about his notes)

JT: If I, ah, the missionary that I was talking with the grandson of, he was either with the Brethren church or Methodist. Was there a Brethren church?

RR: It'd have to be Methodist.

JT: There was no Brethren.

RR: No, either Methodist or Catholic, were the only ones that I ever heard of. 00:22:00And, I believe the Methodist was one of the first, because he was a traveling person, that just traveled.

JT: He was a circuit rider for a while.

RR: Yeah, that's it.

JT: And, then he came back and I guess he lived on the reservation from 1891 to 1901, and then he went back to Toledo. It was the Ellsworths, if that name sounds familiar. There's an Ellsworth Pass somewhere around here I think, but he had a hotel in Toledo from 1901 until he died. But he taught Industrial Arts here and he was a minister.

RR: Mmm. Yeah, that could be true.

JT: Was there one school or were there schools with each of these churches?

RR: Ah, well, Government Hill for an example was an Indian school, and even had many white kids going there.

JT: Is that the one that burned down in 1939, or, is it still up there?

RR: No, it, ah, everythings completely removed except the old hospital and maybe one other building. But the (unclear) school's in Logsden, in the Upper Farm area, and they were only four blocks apart, and one was a white school and the other was an Indian school. And, that was in the early 1900's. I've got some old pictures of that.

JT: Would you be willing, if I could borrow them maybe, and then copy them and return them? I won't do it today, but maybe later?

RR: Yeah, maybe later on we can have another meeting. I'll show you a whole 00:24:00bunch of old pictures, and ah, try to define them, show you the people, Charlie Depoe, them people, and (unclear name) and Chief John's people. And, these were some of the original inhabitants, original people that was brought here of the inhabitants of the Rogue River. I do have some of those pictures.

JT: How old was your grandfather when he was brought over here?

RR: Ah, seven. I think he was seven years old.

JT: So, then he lived his whole life on the reservation?

RR: Yeah. He died in 1950, 50, no 69, and he was 96.

JT: Do you know anything about why they closed the reservation?

RR: Why? Well, yes and no. Basically, the world of progress and automation was coming upon the people and the federal, we were completely under federal jurisdiction. We were body of people that were even organized as a tribe, but our voice didn't mean a hell of a lot. The Bureau of Indian Affairs controlled everything that we done. And they had the, well, the council was more of an advisory, had an advisory capacity rather than a controlling capacity, of chamber sales (?) and the sales of allotments which were allocated to all the living Indians in 1884 to 1892. Which, this all never happened either. They only 00:26:00had, I think in the neighborhood of 300 allotments and that time they had probably 2000 Indians. So, not everybody got an allotment.

JT: This was in the 1900's?

RR: 1800's

JT: I knew there were 2000 Indians in-

RR: See, 18-Well, the Allotment Act opened in 1882, 1884, and closed in 1892.

JT: The Allotment-?

RR: The Allotment Act, Which entitled to all living Indians at that time, to be eligible for an allotment. But, it didn't develop, it didn't work that way.

JT: So then, after 1884, there weren't anymore-

RR: 1892, I believe, I think it was the last, or '94. It was one of the two 00:27:00years that they cut off the Allotment Act.

JT: Then, in 1925, the agency, the government, whatever it was, was taken from the reservation? I heard that they, that Indians just kept the land that they had, one source said that, and one source said that they-

RR: Ok, in 1934, they had their Reorganization Act. And this is when they defined Siletz as a reservation, or recognized the Confederated Tribes of Siletz, and the Grande Ronde agency. I think that was in 1934, 1936, one of the two years.

JT: This was after the reservation had already been officially disbanded?

RR: No.

JT: Oh, it wasn't?

RR: No, it was still, what remaining acreage was left was still a reservation, which was very minimal. At that, at that time, we only had five sections of timber land, a 40 acre parcel up here on Government Hill, which nine acres of that, ten acres of that was our cemetery. And, it was dedicated in 1910 as the Paul Washington cemetery, in 1910. See, 1910? Or 1917? One of the, I can't recall. But, in 1910, is when they done away with much more of the land, and 00:29:00took away much of it, and opened it up to public domain. So, by 1934 and '36, there was very, very little land left. Five sections of timber land and 40 acres that I just spoke of was the only thing that was left. And a little bit that's in the city limits now, the Millside(?) Park is one of them. That belongs to the Indians. And, they had some water, water rights that was established way back when.

JT: What were the principal occupations, or whatever of the Indians in the late 1800's? The mills? You mentioned-

RR: Mills, and farming. And that was it, period.

JT: Has that changed much now, is the mill still here?

RR: Ah, primarily in the 1800's, 1900's, 90% of our, 90% of our people were in the lumber industry, whether working in the logging, sawmill, - or whatever, it had something to do with wood products. In all the phases, them days, of what the lumber industry was about. Then, in the termination time of 1956, we dropped down to about a 45% ratio of working in the lumber industry.

JT: What year was this again?

RR: In 1956 we were terminated, from federal jurisdiction. That' when they done away with all the remaining land. It was finalized et that time. And really the---

[tape break]

RR: ....pulp mill over there. They've done away with many of the sawmills.

JT: This land, when they terminated all the remaining land, did you get, you got to keep what you were on, didn't you?

RR: No. The only thing that you kept, if you had an allotment, that you, was your homesite, and you paid taxes like everyone else had. And that was yours, but the tribal lands, which was the five sections of timber land that I was speaking of earlier, that was finalized, oh, in '52 or '54. That was all sold, 00:32:00done away with. And, it was divided among tribes, the money. And the people, they enrolled in these tribes, got a certain part of the money. And none of it, none of it was any too great, the final payments.

[JT - Lady comes in (Mrs. Gregory?) - she was raised in Upper Farm (she's not an Indian) and is "very prejudiced on the side of the Indians." She's teaching Indian history during the summer school program there.]

RR: ...Harold Mackey, and he's a writer. And, he, you know, he knows some, he don't know a lot, cuz there's many a blank spot in the coastal parts, which 00:33:00we're all aware of. But, there's many linkages within that book that work within our area.

[JT - Lady talks-she can't be understood on tape when she speaks.]

RR: A lot of that information is available (unclear phrase). But still, there's a lot of, lot of lines, things written between the lines, that just make good reading to the reader, you know. A lot of the outright truth, and what really happened, very little of that's documented. Where was you at? Where was you at there?

JT: Is Archie Ben and Mrs. Streets also-there's a bunch of different people reviving the old traditions.

RR: Yeah, we had summer school here this year, and we had history. Mrs. Gregory (the lady mentioned above) was the coordinator for the history, and ah, Gladys Muschamp and Ida Bensell, and Carie Streets, which is one family, is bringing 00:35:00back the basketry.

JT: Are Gladys Muschamp and Carie Streets the ones bringing back-

RR: And Ida Bensell. Ida's the mother of the two, and she's 90, she's going on 96. I guess it was officially over yesterday, and they're going to try to obtain some more funds, they're going to try to continue for ten days or three weeks.

JT: Has it been going for most of the summer?

RR: The 23rd of June till yesterday. It was supposed to go until the 25th, but I guess due to the fair, and a few other complications, I guess they had to stop. I never did get the complete story on why it stopped.

JT: What were they learning? Was it basket weaving, and-

RR: Basket weaving, beading, singing, drumming, dancing, and history. The history, mainly, it involved the coastal area, and the Siletz Reservation area. See, our intent and I hope we can document enough of this localized, that we can 00:36:00introduce it into the school, have it part of the curriculum. Whether it would be a block type deal or an elective part. And this will take us probably two years to get it solid enough so that we can present it to the school system and see if we can get it to happen. And, there will be people we will be contacting, Dr. Beckham and this person right here (referring to author of a book), and trying to fill in some of the blank spots that, that are kind of darkened areas. And, see if it fits in with some of the things that we're learning about. Because, they too are writers, and most good writers like to write on what makes good reading.

[JT - tape turned off; unrelated part]

RR: The hospital originated there in the early 1900's and some of the people see, in most of your readings, the Upper Farm was very greatly (unclear word) in most of your writings.

JT: Upper Farm?

RR: Yeah, that's and, that's the Logsden area, and many (unclear) that you don't even read about. And, these people were some of the original people that were brought here in 1855, and prior and after. And this is Lower Farm, see. So, (unclear part); Siletz in general, when you speak of Siletz in general, you could be speaking of Upper Tillamook clear down to Coos Bay or Siuslaw, you know, down in that area.

[JT - unrelated talk]

JT: I had one other question. I saw an old picture from 1924, and they called it the "Last official Indian ceremony in North Lincoln County" or something like that. But, there were a lot of names on it that sounded familiar: Archie Ben? and Pat Ben? (He responds yes to each of these) Is that Archie Ben's father, or is it the same one?

RR: No, same one.

JT: Lets see, are any of these people still here: Johnnie Williams? William Brown? Mrs. Abraham Leggen? (He responds no to each of these) It's the same one then, Archie Ben?

RR: Yeah.

JT: How old is he?

RR: 75

[JT - Lady talks; isn't clear.]

JT: It said last official Indian ceremony.

RR: Yeah, well that's another myth.

JT: I was going to say, if it's being revived so much now. So then, they talked about one in the 1950's, so I don't know why they said the last official.

[JT - Lady talks; unclear]

JT: Well, it was in, it was on Boiler Bay. (Mrs. Gregory speaks again) Is that why it was called the last? (She talks again)

RR: Yeah, you see, they used to have the tradition of the Depoe Bay Salmon Bake, until the late '40's the Indians used to have that there, and that again was ripped off.

JT: By the Jaycees?

RR: Yeah, well, whoever. Really, that's a fact.

JT: They used to have yearly meetings there, at Depoe Bay?

RR: Well, they used to have yearly ceremonies there. A pow-wow, a salmon bake, and the whole works. Because that was one of the most famous localities. The Indians came over the hills, spending the days, and weeks, and months (unclear part) along this local coast. It was most centrally located, and so, therefore, it was just the ceremonial grounds that they've always inhabited. And they always met, whether clear up to the Nehalem Bay, or they went down the coast to wherever, Coos Bay. They migrated, maybe only down to Alsea or something like 00:41:00that, and then they'd come back. And they'd spend weeks or months, or whatever it took to gather all the provisions that was necessary. So, the encampment didn't last for one day, it lasted till they filled their provisions, their supplies. And in the meantime, they were always in festivity, because in the Indian history, in the culture, they gave thanksgiving whether it was the sun or the moon, or whatever, time had no meaning. Time is meaningless.

JT: I have to get the spelling of some of these names right. (spells some of the 00:42:00above names) I think that will be enough to go on for a while.

RR: Well, you can kind of fill in between the lines, and kind of figure, figure out for yourself a lot, I believe.

JT: There was one other question, I guess, on the, I read one newspaper heading, I didn't get the story, but it said, the heading was "Siletz Indians seek tribal status."

RR: Yeah, ok. We reorganized in, ah, let's see, 1972. And we are now introducing 00:43:00a bill in Congress for the Siletz Restoration Act, which will, hopefully, restore our federal status. And, basically the reason, and the objective behind it, so we can qualify for money in many of the grants and funds that are available to the rest of the reservations throughout the United State, such as, Health, Education, and Welfare. I guess that's the (unclear end of sentence). Because when they (unclear part) they even took our identity away from us, as Indians, we're "others."

[JT - lady talks; unclear]

JT: Are you organizing as the Siletz tribe?

RR: Confederated Tribe of the Siletz Indians.

JT: So the,--I also heard that there was a drive to be, like all the different tribes, to make them distinct, with their heritage like that. Is that-you're not organizing along those lines?

RR: No. Not that I know of anyway. There may be another movement somewhere, but basically we're (unclear word) in right here in our ancestors or whatever had. And that's primarily the area that we've been speaking of. It used to run 30 miles inland, the reservation.

JT: How big is it now, the, I mean how much, just the 40 and the-

RR: Well, all that we have now to lay claim to, is the 11 acre cemetery plot, that's all. No other resources, no other land.

JT: The town isn't-

RR: No, the town is, is strictly all city.

[JT - Lady talks; unclear. Then, some unrelated conversation.]

RR: Because there's only a few remaining old ones (?) left that have this hidden in their hearts.

JT: The Upper Farm?

RR: Yes.

JT: [unintelligable]

RR: And some of these people are not all Indians, either. Some of these are some of our early pioneers that were first, first here, too.

JT: Is that mostly Logsden?

RR: Logsden area, yeah. See, that in itself had about seven different names before it was ever named Logsden. Had another little town up there that they used to call Rocko(?) which you don't read about.

JT: Never heard of it. Did you know, do you know the people, or the history 00:46:00behind that? (unclear part at end)

RR: Well, yeah, I know, from my dad, but I could through all my notes and things (unclear part about notes) my grandfather would relate stories, and I just enjoyed them, I never wrote them down one heck of a lot of anything, you know. And that's, that's a lot of history.

[JT - Mrs. Gregory talks again]

RR: Yeah, and they tried to segregate them. See the thoughts behind the whole thing, and it's easy to realize, that anytime you bring in more than two tribes that have a bilingual-type misunderstanding, that was kind of a set-up by the Federal Government to make them war-like among themselves, to annihilate them, to eliminate them. You know, this, a lot of writers don't like to write this, but it's fact.

JT: They tried to make them turn against each other, you mean?

RR: Well, certainly, to eliminate them.

[JT - Mrs. Gregory speaks.]

RR: Yeah, then they only give them one-third of the, well, not quite one-third of the allotment that they should have received. There were 2,000 some, there should have been 2000 allotments. But I think there was only 300 some, or 400 or some.

JT: 400 out of 2,000?

RR: Yeah, and these were parcels the size of 80 acres to 360(?). See, everyone was entitled to an 80 acre allotment. But, this never happened. Yeah. Down on the river down here, someone just bought a 20 acre plot. And before they had a chance to know who (unclear word) it, they took it away from them - immediately 00:48:00- that was on Coyote Rock country down there, that, all of that there.

JT: There was a legend behind Coyote Rock, wasn't there?

RR: Oh, there's quite a legend, yeah. There's a lot of fantasy there, but I have a tendency to believe what, like I say again, what my grandfather told me, that a, like I mentioned earlier, the Indian people gave thanksgiving to everything, and this was one of their ways of rewarding the river they would leave some of their precious gems, jewels, or whatever, on this particular rock, because they were so instructed by the great spirit, (unclear word). And it hold true to form even today, in many instances. And for the few remaining ones left, they have their way of doing their own thing, you know.

JT: What's that, the legends left?

RR: The Indians, yeah, in their own type of worship, you recall modern day church, they have their own ritual, ritualistic type of worship. And if they did it right out here in open public, there'd be no doubt about it, they'd probably get arrested, you know. But, they were great believers in giving thanksgiving, to everything.

[JT - Mrs. Gregory lists some of the things they gave thanksgiving for; unclear.]

JT: There still is people doing this, then?

RR: Oh well sure, yeah. But many of that will never be exposed. Because, that again, that belief was intended to destroy. To wipe away that thing and get them educated in the world of progress. Not realizing that some of the same things that the Indians were trying to relate to them, that we're going back to now, if 00:51:00we're going to exist. But the, the great leaders of this nation didn't realize that, until now. And things are starting to (unclear word) and going back to who's going to survive. See, the Bicentennial's coming on soon, they tried to annihilate the Indian people, but they have survived. All our people, they're still here. So now your writers and your (unclear word), they want to know "why", and "how", because they tried to eliminate them, to annihilate them, but still they survived. They can't understand why.

[JT - unrelated talk; dealt with different people he'd been talking to about the 00:52:00Siletz Indians - gives out the information with the intent to get it back, to receive a copy, for use in history for their schools. Doesn't want information 00:53:00that they don't also have to get in some book, and lost from his people's access. Shares information with the intent they will also have access to it.]

RR: This game I was talking about (an Indian gambling game) is very, very 01:00:0000:59:0000:58:0000:57:0000:56:0000:55:00interesting and the only way it can be told is by someone who's done it like Archie Ben. I couldn't attempt to tell you in detail all about it. But, one thing is, that's interesting, is how they train. They go without food.

JT: They trained for it?

RR: Oh yeah, just like you would in sports. They'd sweat, and swim. Never drink water for 11 days. Doctors tell you that you can't live that long, but that's a bunch of bologna. But, this happened, this Is actual, factual. And, there, sometimes they'd have a ceremony that lasted two or three days singing and dancing. And when they played till somebody won, sometimes that would take anywhere from two days to two weeks. Because they laid everything on the line, whether it was gold, horses, machinery, whatever.

[JT - Mrs, Gregory speaks; unclear]

RR: Yeah, (unclear sentence) You see, that in itself is a story and a good one. Really interesting. And we hope to have a study in here, in this building with Archies, and he's still got the original game, it was passed down to him by his father. And we're going to have him give us a demonstration and go through the whole works.

JT: Do you know when that would be?

RR: Well, not for sure. Do you have a phone number, I can get a hold of you? I think you gave it to me at the pow-wow, in my other book like that.