Judy Li Oral History Interview, May 24, 2019

CHRIS PETERSEN: Alright, today is May 24, 2019 and we are with Judy Li in the library of her home in Corvallis and we are going to talk to her about he career, about her association with OSU and Fisheries and Wildlife and as a career as an OSU Press author as well. But we will start at the beginning and I'll ask you where were you born?

JUDY LI: I was born in Berkeley, California and primarily grew up in the San Jose area.

CP: Okay. Can you tell me more about your family background?

JL: I am very proud of my family background. My grandparents were all immigrants at the beginning of the 20th century and they came during an era that was sort of known as the Chinese exclusion period of our American history. Despite that our family did thrive very well. My grandparents were in very humble situations 00:01:00but they raised their children to all go to the university, which is a wonderful thing about public universities. They went to the University of California. So, I was surrounded by a family that had a tradition of working hard and then expectation of going on to university education. I also feel strongly that I come from a family of strong and intelligent women. My grandmother, my maternal grandmother was the secretary to Sun Yat-sen of the National Chinese Party before 1900. No, when she was working with them in the early 1900s before she 00:02:00and my grandfather immigrated they had to kind of get out of there. I didn't know those things until after she died. We didn't know that much, but I had a really exciting time learning about my family history. My aunt on my father's side was 15 years older helped raise him. She in the 1920s got a master's degree and became, at UC Berkeley, and became a librarian of the Bancroft Library. So, we come from some very interesting roots and I think it's useful for people to know how immigrants contributed in multiple ways to the experience before that in a generation before that one of my grandfathers worked on the railroads and 00:03:00then he had an apple dryer in California.

So, the family was not quite a cocoon but it was a wonderful supportive environment for me to grow up in. Despite the fact that I just said the women in my family were important, important to me were my uncles who would spend long periods of time when they came to visit or we were visiting in their homes, just playing math games and chatting about their experiences and I remember those conversations of being particularly important to encouraging me to be a good student, to enjoy learning. I think the other piece of my growing up that was 00:04:00important was that I was the eldest daughter in my immediate family and my grandmother made it clear, my maternal grandmother said that I was the eldest cousin around. Therefore, I needed to take care of my younger siblings and my cousins. It was my responsibility and I think that gave me a sense of the importance of taking care of the people around me. I learned how to kind of coax them and teach them a little. My sister may have thought I did that a little more than she was interested in. It influenced me in ways as I think about it that I didn't understand until much, much later.

CP: How about your parents?

JL: My parents were completely supportive of almost anything I wanted to do and that kind of freedom is a wonderful gift and they, my father was a dentist and my mother didn't quite finish her undergraduate and they always encouraged me to do well. Going to school was easy. I didn't really have to work at it. But they let me stay up late to study if I needed to do that. My dad would sit next to me when I had some problems with math. There were moments when we spent time developing my calligraphy and when I had trouble drawing in 3 dimensions. Odd stuff like that, you know? But it was just like parents there always around and 00:06:00that wasn't uncommon in my generation. I think mom was home and I think as I think of my friends growing up that was true of everybody's mothers working at home until we grew up and then they would go on and do other things.

When I was in high school, I went in... I remember I went in as a junior for counseling to go for college in the day when you just sort of went to the local school. This counselor said so what do you want to do? I said well, I want to take trig and physics next year because I'm going to major in science. I want to be a biologist. He looked at me and said why would you want to do that? I said, 00:07:00because it's what I love. And he said, oh, so what school are you going to go to? We were living in San Jose. I said, oh, I'll go to Berkeley. It was just sort of a natural thing. In those days it wasn't quite the competition it is now, although it wasn't automatic. And he said, oh, no, no. You don't need to do that. That was the first time I had encountered any kind of sense that the natural thing wasn't to go to the university. I never went back to talk to him and my parents were very... we talked about it and at those kinds of moments parents can be very important, I think, and they were to kind of say no, it's fine you can go on and do what you want to do. There were other options, but I wanted to go to Berkeley and that was the right thing for me.

CP: Where did the spark for biology come from and how long had that been something you were thinking about?

JL: My cousin asked me that recently. She said you know Judy forever you liked to identify the butterflies and check out the flowers. I still do that. I cannot pin a time on it, but my dad would take us camping occasionally and we liked to go to the beach where he would be fishing and I enjoyed kind of dinking around in the tide pools and things but no one else...Dad liked to take me fishing but no one else in the family kind of embraced that whole idea. It wasn't like I grew up in a family where everybody did that. We were city folks. My parents let 00:09:00me pursue it in every way I could. When I was in the fourth grade Mom signed me up for day camp and she had to drive about a half hour to get me there and pick me up and I remember sampling in the stream. I don't remember much else about that. I loved that. It was perfect for me. I remember the insects that we picked up. I remember one of them bit me and I know what it was now. Then I didn't know what it was. Therefore after that I was always interested in helping other kids have that same experience. That's carried on until present. It's kind of 00:10:00amazing. My mom kind of shook her head. She never quite understood how it was that I liked biology so much, but I was just drawn to it. I loved the diversity, the complexity, the questions you could ask. I had a good high school biology teacher. So, the one thing, but just the persistent curiosity.

CP: So, you were a good student. You have an ambition of college that's being well-supported by your family and you isolate Berkeley as the place you want to go to and you go there. Tell me about that transition.

JL: Well, when I was in high school, you know how kids kind of separate out a little bit of the kids who take the classes that are tougher and we were not 00:11:00channeled particularly, but there's this sort of group but the number of us who were in those classes was somewhat limited. I was one of two girls in the physics class, one of four in the trig class, so I always felt a little bit unusual and being Chinese-American, my sister and I were two of three Asians in our high school. So, I was always kind of, I always felt that some of the things I was choosing was different. When I got to Berkeley that was no longer the case. It was just this wonderful feeling of here are people who I can relate to, 00:12:00who like the things I like, and then of course it's such a big institution that there are a lot of choices. I like that. I remember thinking this is the big time when I went to Berkeley. And I was going to school in the '60s so it was a center of attention state-wide and nationally, not when I first went, but by the time I was a sophomore things had gotten heated up.

One of the things that happened for me when I was going there was that I became interested in volunteer work very early-on as a compliment to... I had done a lot of similar kinds of things when I was in high school and leadership in sort of church groups and things like that. So, I volunteered at the school for the 00:13:00deaf for my freshman year and it was associated with the university YWCA. I became involved there, developed some very strong leadership skills because of the really good mentoring by the women who were on the staff and the faculty wives that were on the board there. It was a very personal experience and a very large institution. Those skills came into play as I moved on in life, just as the skills I got in a really good education were important. Like many institutions, the first years, you know there's just a lot of stuff you have to 00:14:00take. You know you're just taking it because you got to. But there were students who I knew from the dorms that we commiserated about these things and I learned what it took to do well in science at Berkeley. It was not trivial. It was different than high school. But in my last two years there were particularly graduate TAs who went on to be very well-known scientists. This is Berkeley. They made me feel like I could do it. They were very encouraging. I had a professor my senior year where I was taking class primarily for graduate students in an era when people didn't do too much of that, there wasn't too much of that combination of undergraduate-graduate training. I felt very privileged I 00:15:00could do that and it made me feel like yeah, this was the right thing for me and that I would do more of that after I graduated.

CP: You mentioned things heating up over the course of your time at Berkeley. Do you have any stand-out memories?

JL: Well, when I was saying I was associated with the university Y, in my sophomore year, Vietnam was beginning to crank up so that would have been the fall of 1963. I'm trying to remember: yeah, '63. We learned that the American Red Cross was not providing medical aid to everyone, and young, idealistic women 00:16:00that we were we decided that was not right. So, we were going to make a point of that and we set up a table to object to this situation. That happened to be about the same time a lot of other people were worrying about what was going on in Vietnam and that was when the Free Speech Movement began. I remember from my dorm room looking down and seeing the military and now I don't remember, I think it was probably the cops from Oakland I think marching down the street. I did not get involved beyond this problem that we had with the table that we had set 00:17:00up, but that was a very scary moment. They warned us at the Y that we had been put on an FBI list. I thought you got to be kidding me. But anyway.

So, that tension was there during those years. We graduated before they started using tear gas and those things. My younger members of my family were there for those years, so our education was not interrupted but later on it became a problem. My cousin who graduated I think 3 years after I did, they didn't have 00:18:00graduation that year at Berkeley because things were so, the potential for violence was so keen. I went to a national conference for the Y that would have been the summer of 1965 and I remember... so these were women in leadership all from all over the country at a conference and they were really, really interested in knowing what it was like at Berkeley. It was exciting to be able to tell them what was going on. That was before Kent State and things like that. It was one of those periods of history where college students were really making 00:19:00an impact on what was going on in the world.

CP: Yeah. Academically were you starting to narrow your focus at all within biological sciences? Or are you still taking more generalist?

JL: No I realized when I was... I took a field class in marine invertebrates in the summer before I became a senior and that pretty well narrowed it right down. I loved the diversity of invertebrates. I took entomology and I loved that. I took natural history of biology in my junior year and I loved the field work. I thought, wow you could do this for the rest of your life if you figure out a path. So, going from just general biology to something very specific was 00:20:00actually pretty straightforward for me. It also then determines the kind of classes you have to take in order to graduate. I also realized I wanted to be a teacher. So I had thought I was going to get a teaching credential and I would teach biology. We graduated... I met my husband, Hiram, in the fall of my senior year and it was the perfect moment for us and it made as much difference in my senior year as all those other things. But after we graduated I did go to San Jose State where my parents were still living. They were living in that area. I got almost finished with my credential but then Vietnam War was really now 00:21:00affecting all of us and Hiram was called for his physical, passed it with flying colors. We decided we're going to get married now. We're not going to wait until later. We got married and I didn't quite finish my credential but I'd gotten all the training. And my teacher said you're good. You can teach. You'll be fine.

Well, it wasn't until we went to find a job and he was already in graduate school in Colorado and I joined him there in the winter and I worked in the library. You know, things kind of connect in funny ways, and we met people who became our life-long friends while we were in Colorado. We were California kids 00:22:00and we never lived anywhere else. Our whole family-we were pretty much Bay Area kids. It was wonderful growing experience. We did it on our own. We thought we were really big grown-ups. We were very young, but we had a wonderful experience there and Hiram got his masters. We toyed with my going to graduate school when he could, but that's an expensive proposition and we weren't able to do it that way so I worked at the library but I sort of got this kind of thought that well maybe I could do entomology and it developed a little interest in those invertebrates in particular: plankton. After Hiram finished then we moved back to California. By then we sort of realized that the compatibility of our 00:23:00interests in science was very strong and though it was Hiram getting his education he was always determined that I would be able to pursue higher education when the moment was right.

CP: What is his discipline? Or what was discipline at that point?

JL: Hiram's a fisheries biologist, and that he picked up working with the person who became his major professor at Berkeley. He was the vertebrate person and I was the invertebrate person and I always felt like it was going to work out, and it did. While we were in Colorado because I was working I didn't really join him doing his research. He was doing some work that involved looking at distribution 00:24:00of fishes across the Plains in Nebraska, but eventually we did do field work together but it took many, many years before that happened. We moved after Colorado to a temporary position that he had... we thought it was going to be in La Jolla. What's not to like about being in La Jolla. It turns out that he had to raise fish in the Salton Sea, not so nice. That lasted about 6 months and the significance of that event was that he met the person who became his major professor for his Ph.D. in Davis.

The whole time worrying about whether or not he'd have to go to Vietnam or 00:25:00whether or not he'd have to be in the National Guard. We just kind of made it through that luckily. Just pure luck in all the ways that had to come together during those years. It's hard for people now to understand the threat of the draft and recognizing the consequence may not be so equal across our society on who goes into the military, but at that moment it was very scary. That was the year, so 1969 in our family was a big deal. Hiram finished his master's. We did the thing in San Diego, Salton Sea, and our son was born. He was born the day 00:26:00that Hiram had to register for his Ph.D. program in Davis. That kind of set our, sort of the next decade of our lives in California.

One of the things we decided early on was we established a priority of the importance of raising our children. There are a lot of choices that can be made at that point on what's going to happen to the kids and what would I do, how would he be able to do it and he was working on his Ph.D. and I was raising the children in married student housing. Around us we had a lot of young women who 00:27:00decided they were going to go to school, they were going to take on jobs and have the children cared for in other ways. We decided that we wanted to raise our children at home when they were very young and that is a decision that has always been very rewarding. We always felt that that was the right thing to do. It wasn't easy. Because the graduate school is an expensive proposition and there's not much room for anything other than just plowing ahead and hoping there's food on the table. There were a few rough financial moments but we made it through and when Hiram finished pretty quickly. We had two children by then, 00:28:00two little ones at home plus me. So he was pushing it.

He finished it as quickly as he could and he was appointed to the faculty in which he graduated at UC Davis. It was a very young wildlife and fisheries program. They were just expanding the fisheries part of it. So, the year he was hired along with Peter Moyle they were the first fisheries folks in the program. After he got his feet on the ground and our kids were a little bit older, Eric was in kindergarten and Mary was in her 2nd year of nursery school, Hiram 00:29:00thought, because I have this tendency to volunteer and I was being very helpful in a lot of different things. He said you can spend your energy volunteering or you can begin to redirect that energy and start at a degree. I went, okay. That's when I started my master's. I really, I really think the support of my spouse in that circumstance was absolutely pivotal to my ability to be successful in that way and we worked it out with the kids and for the most part they would play at my feet while I was studying and I found ways of doing research that was compatible with them.

At that point Hiram was working at Clear Lake, California. His early research 00:30:00was on lakes and so I pursued this entomology thing and the kids and I would go with him to stay in a campground next to the lake and I began to set up experiments that eventually I brought home and I set up on our kitchen counter. One of the graduate students who was very helpful to me thought it was such a scream, because I had my microscopes and the Petri dishes all set up and I was running these experiments and that's how I did my master's research. But I really thought that I needed to be practical. I needed to figure out something that I could do that would minimize my being away from home. And turned out to be very useful research. Hiram and I published that together and when I think of 00:31:00the things which I've done in publication that turns out to be one of the important ones. So, it worked out for everyone. My children: my son is an architect and my daughter is in communications in public health, are probably for the people in their field the most well-qualified zooplankton ID folks there are. They learned very early how to use a microscope and they know more than most people do about stuff like that. It's pretty funny.

CP: What was your topic?

JL: I was looking at predator-prey interaction between copepods, which are less than a centimeter in size, eating rotifers that are like about a millimeter in 00:32:00size. I was looking to see how it was, how they choose their prey. I think that there are some things which lend themselves to graduate theses, because when you get into a full, big research program sometimes you don't have time to do these little, small detail things. That's what it was: setting up experiments and running them to see what was eating and how it was eating. That sort of thing. I liked the experimental part of it. I think one of the things about the expansion of what I knew when I was working on my masters was that I had some amazing statistics professors and I learned to look at things differently. It was very 00:33:00exciting. I was very surprised by that. I put that to use in the experiments. I had some... I had a major professor who thought that I learned when I was done that my husband was watching after me. Hiram and I have always been very clear about separating our roles when we are not doing joint research. So, while Hiram might have some thoughts about what might be logistically possible and would help me work out the ways in which I could collect what I needed, he stayed absolutely clear of supervising that research. So, I learned to look for other 00:34:00mentors. There were the other members of my committee who were wonderful and their graduate students and graduate students who were in related things. Early on I learned to look for people who could be resources to me and I tried hard in later years to pay that back to other students, to my students. It was a wonderful model.

CP: Then came Corvallis.

JL: Hmm?

CP: Then came Corvallis. Is that correct?

JL: Yes. I graduated in 1977 and I did a little bit of teaching for scientific writing. I can't remember the roots of that except that I know I had minored in 00:35:00English and I did a little bit of that writing thing in graduate school somehow that got me connected into teaching in the high schools for that. Hiram was asked to interview here for a position that was tailored to his skills. In the fisheries world, Corvallis was and is one of the real hot spots for research. We're in a wonderful place. We really can't ask for more for the locations of streams but there was all kinds of research happening up here. He was happy at Davis. So, we thought, it'd be a nice vacation. We'll just go. Then to our surprise when we came, we thought, oh yeah this would be quite the opportunity. 00:36:00So we came.

For the first few years we were here he was settling into the kinds of research he would do here and I was helping the kids settle in to the change and I learned, actually fairly recently from my kids that... we were very worried-oh there will be this transition and it'll be so... they loved it. They were so happy to move here. So, it all worked out. Eventually when things settled down and I had begun volunteering again. Hiram said, you know you got the other degree still to go. I said, okay. I had been teaching and helped teach entomology here. I was kind of involved on the edges in Fisheries and Wildlife 00:37:00but then I just jumped full steam into a Ph.D. program. There were a ton of choices actually. I decided that rather than working in a lake where you have to take a sample, you take several samples and try to extrapolate to the whole lake, I thought I wanted to be a little bit more hands-on to exactly what was going on and so I thought streams would be more that way. That was the period of time when the stream team in our department and related programs in the College of Forestry and Zo[ology] at the time and entomology were all working together so a lot of energy there. It was very exciting. So, that's what I did.

CP: We'll talk a bit more about the Ph.D. in a second but I want to back up a little bit and ask you... I often ask people about their memories and impressions of Corvallis and particularly in just in your impressions of Corvallis from your point of view as a mother of two young children having moved here and having spent at least a little while focusing primarily on raising children in Corvallis in the early 1980s, late '70s, early '80s. What was it like, the town?

JL: We moved from one college town which had a wonderful educational system and I was very active in the nursery school and in parent involvement in education, to another college town in Corvallis that had really strong public schools, but it did not encourage the degree of volunteerism that the Davis schools... so 00:39:00that was a little different. But it was obvious that there was a little compatibility with the kind of interests of the families in the neighborhood and I enjoyed kind of working with different mothers who were pretty much stay-at-home mothers at the time and developed a network for the kids. They were in middle grade school by then and they soon got into that phase of life where were there was a lot of sports and music and all those things. You do not run out of opportunities in this town. So it became a little bit of a few choices.

My son in particular learned to use his bike because when I started going to 00:40:00graduate school I could not take him always everywhere so I was glad that he was able and interested in doing that. But it was a very welcoming community for the kids. They grew up in the public-school system here and then both of them went to University of Oregon. As it's turned out, their best friends now that my son is 50 this year and my daughter is 49, among their very best friends, the people who were in their weddings were from their high school or elementary school days here in Corvallis. Which says something about the commonality of experience 00:41:00that's not true for all towns. We're a college town, you know? At the time that they were going to school I think that Corvallis was like per capita the most well-educated town for I don't know definitely in the state maybe, well certainly on some sort of ranking nationally we are just that kind of town. The down side of that probably is that there isn't the diversity of background that we would see in a larger city and our kids became urban kids. They moved on. We made a point of having them visit our families in California as they were growing up, spending significant amount of times in the Bay Area where they were exposed to a lot, not only our own families but just that feel of different 00:42:00kinds of people all in a place together, and they like that. I think they're very comfortable with that. They still like Corvallis, but I don't think it's uncommon for kids who go away to school come home and say wow there's not nearly as much to do here. But when you're raising children it's a great place to be.

CP: Sure. Was Fisheries and Wildlife at OSU a comfortable environment for you to move into as a Ph.D. candidate?

JL: Yes. My experience in academia might be a little bit different than most simply because I have a husband who precedes me usually in some way that opens 00:43:00doors for me that is different. My experience in high school, though, you know the thing that only being one of two women in the physics class? I was used to through my education being one of the few women dominated by men and thankfully I had a really good experience all along the way and I didn't experience some of the things that some people have. A few times I didn't think of avoiding things to make sure that didn't happen but for the most part I like the collegiality with men and I can't tell whether as I grew older I was buffered a bit by the 00:44:00fact that they knew my husband was on the faculty but particularly in the department, whatever I wanted to try people were very supportive. My major professor, Stan Gregory, opened a lot of doors for me. It wasn't so obvious when I was getting a Ph.D., but when I finished there were a lot of projects that he asked that I would participate, or he would say you know there's something there that I think you should pursue. He was very helpful in that way. I co-taught with others that made a difference in my life.

It was a very supportive environment. When I was doing my Ph.D. research, there were times where the guys would do things and decisions-I remember one of the senior research assistants was a woman. She and I kind of did things together sometimes pretty menial things that had to get done to get the research done. Not always. But one time she said to me you know the guys are making some decisions on the golf course. I said, yeah, I can tell that. So, there were moments when it just didn't happen but it didn't make a lot of difference and sometimes it helps to just kind of recognize what the larger goal is and go with it.

CP: So, you finished the Ph.D. and not too long thereafter you have a research associate position at OSU. How did that happen? Was that a Stan Gregory door opening?

JL: Part of it was because of the success of different projects that we were working on, but I was not thinking I would be able to work in the department where my husband was working, my major professor was working, and in which I got a degree. I just dismissed the whole notion, but I was willing to work at various projects and so early on before I finished my degree Hiram and I were already working in the John Day together. That's because the research lent 00:47:00itself to that. I worked on the invertebrates and fish diet and he was working on the fish and, the model in our department is to work in teams and so this was one of the teams, the John Day team. I had worked on a team here to do my Ph.D. I also was involved with the team that was working up at the Andrews. There were these different and similar, but not always the same players depending on what we were doing. Hiram's research has gone by this time out into central and eastern Oregon. So, that's also when I was working with the OMSI group. I developed early on in part because of Hiram's interests as well a strong 00:48:00interest in helping Native American students succeed in higher education. That is a very difficult hurdle for them and so we looked at ways to do that. Early on I think perhaps the reason I got that first appointment as research associate was because I wanted to teach orientation classes to those kids. What we had done with our research in eastern Oregon through our contacts with the tribes was we identified young students coming into the program and we didn't want them to get lost. So I wanted to have something there ready for them. Early on, those are the very first classes I taught. They were just small groups of students, 00:49:00not just Native Americans but small groups where they would feel a comradery with other students in the department and it was an era when the university had these orientation kinds of classes so I developed that. So there was the teaching element of research of the research associate position. I'm trying to think... and OMSI came before that. I had also been teaching teachers.

So, my career, I think of it as multi-pronged. It wasn't only research. There has always been a strong interest in teaching at multiple levels. I was teaching teachers. I found that to be more effective than teaching little ones given what 00:50:00I could contribute and undergraduates and graduate students teaching and as a subset of that mentoring students of color, which was something I could do in a way, relate to them a little different than most members of our faculty. Then I had another strong interest in professional organizations where I could see an opportunity to expand what we did in our department which I believed in very much to a larger national scene. Anyway, those things were all going on together before I became a research associate. I can't tell if it was any one thing but I needed the appointment so I could continue.

CP: That's really interesting to hear that apparently the department recognized this need for outreach to the Native American community and supported it in that way.

JL: Absolutely. It's not easy. In a way I had the freedom because I was not tenured tracked. I didn't have to march forward in research and push really hard that way in order so that I could stay. I was building my own little way of getting it done. As a result, I really believe in initiative and just try it. Sometimes it doesn't work so okay try this other way. Because of that orientation class, after a year or so I thought there must be a way that I can address some of these issues in a larger way. What can I do in this university? 00:52:00Then it became a little bit strategic. I thought I'm in a department where my major professor teaches a class that I would most like to teach. Members of my committee teach the other classes in other departments. My husband's teaching here. I can't go thinking that I'm going to teach those classes. That's not going to happen. But what can I do?

So I thought I am interested in this Native American piece and at the time there was the DPD initiative, Difference, Power, and Discrimination. I took their workshop and I recognized what they would need. About this time there was also this writing and curriculum initiative. I'm thinking okay what the university needs, what my department could use is a class that can do these things. What would I do? So I developed the class that became Multicultural Perspectives in 00:53:00Natural Resource and I was never able to whittle that title down. Because it is, it just covered quite a scope. But it was the contribution of a number of underrepresented groups in the development of natural resources that was unrecognized. One of the things I learned was that there were many students, campus wide, who really had very little background in U.S. history period, not just what I was thinking. I also used that opportunity to help students develop an appreciation of the importance of history as part of their undergraduate program. I came from Berkeley where we got a degree that it was a bachelor of 00:54:00arts and our interpretation of that meant that we would be well-rounded citizens of the world and I was hoping for some of that in what I was teaching. Because of all these things coming together, we got this library here. That's what that's about. I really became a student of learning about culture ecology in fundamentally the late 19th and 20th century, leaving out the whole story of the African American experience because that was just way more than I knew I could handle.

To that end, then I got some funding from the university to get this going. Then I got a USDA grant that helped me with that and that helped fund a more definite position in the department and when you begin to build things like that the snowball begins to roll. So, first I developed the class and that was about 1994, something like that, and then it happened that our department head, Dan Edge, created the first online class in our college, in our department. It was one of the first ones. He said, you know, you think about this. I said, okay. 00:56:00So, I wrote up another grant and it was for developing the online class that was an $84,000 grant. It was a big grant. I traveled to different parts of the west to interview and film relevant places, like the Lakota in South Dakota and the Paiute in New Mexico, the missions of California, the various places of importance to Asians, the Japanese and the Chinese in different parts of California and Oregon. It was a very exciting project. I had a videographer who helped me with it. Also there was some salary funding there. That meant that the 00:57:00university didn't have to do entirely fund that. That was a piece of it.

Then I can't remember how this happened, but I also began to teach a class in riparian biodiversity. That was with the department of entomology with Paul Jepsen. We started here in the valley and it was a small class. I love teaching classes of about 20 or 30 kids. It's such a luxury. I did that for a couple of years and then we moved the whole program up to the Andrews. Then that became another part of my teaching appointment. Sort of like the importance of the DPD 00:58:00class, suddenly this field-oriented, writing intensive class, it was meant for seniors and graduate students became a part of what I was doing. That spoke very much specifically to my research expertise. So that was terrific. For a short time I also had an appointment then in entomology. The other part of the teaching was with classes that we developed in Fisheries and Wildlife that were called problem solving classes. I sat for many years on the undergraduate resident instruction committee. I chaired it for some years. Bob Jarvis, who is 00:59:00an ornithologist and I were teaching this small class that we called the marsh team. What we were trying to do was find a special experience for the students in our program who needed something more who really could use a little bit higher challenge within the department to do something that was applying what they had learned to something out there in the field. This was called the marsh team where we looked at different issues related to the biology in local marshes in the cascades and north of us. Eventually that whole idea became a requirement in our department.

It has evolved since then, but I think that's one thing that's exciting about 01:00:00undergraduate teaching, that it's this constant evolution of program where you're trying to address things for a larger objective and also bring in students from elsewhere. So the DPD was bringing in students from all over the university to learn a little bit more about what we do. Anyway, it was... I ended up teaching this wide array of students and what is most rewarding to me is when one of them comes up to me in some place I don't expect to see them and say, do you remember me? And this is what we did? I said, yes, those small classes, boy they made a difference. That was real exciting.

CP: What was it like, the early years of distance education? You mentioned being 01:01:00early on with the online learning where there were videotapes for that, is that correct?

JL: Yes. Well, I had to fight for it. I believe that my class lent itself very much to the sort of visual images that lent themselves to online. It wasn't one of those stand in front of the podium lecture things. It was really the stories being told supported by images. I watched Ken Burns very carefully. Of course, we couldn't do what Ken Burns really did but we worked at it. We aimed in that direction. I think my goal was really way out there for the distance program so 01:02:00that's, you know, I had my own funding and we just...they said, no it would require this, this and this. I said, no, you know I'm thinking maybe just taking the equipment that we have access to and just doing it. We'll just do it. They said, oh maybe. So we did.

Eventually that had got converted into DVDs as things moved along. Now, of course, it's very different. I was surprised that we were going kind of low-tech and they were trying to push something much more sophisticated, much more expensive. They didn't have the staffing to do it and I just wanted to get the 01:03:00project done. But I did. After I retired, other people took the sort of teaching end of it. Because I was on tape, but I had a lot of writing assignments and it was up to the people who followed on how they would handle those sorts of things. I found the interaction with online students to be very interesting. I learned something about how to communicate with students in the new tech that wasn't accessible to us. My class had like 90 kids in the classroom. You don't get to know those students personally. When they have an online connection it changes. I think now, and because I'm not involved with it, now those 01:04:00opportunities are on campus as well because of the way all the online accessibility that students on campus have where now when I was teaching that wasn't true. There's a real difference in how I knew the students. Kind of surprising.

CP: In the midst of all this you're still doing research?

JL: Yes. I loved working with graduate students and in the end I think I had 17 graduate students and perhaps because with Ph.D. students I thought they required, I had to be hands on and it was my job to be part of their research 01:05:00and so I didn't take on very many Ph.D. students of my own. But when I looked at my publications about half of them were with my students or with students on whose committee I was involved enough that I was co-publishing with them. So, I had one graduate student who I started with who then got his Ph.D. with me. That was Kris Wright. He became the senior student who would then kind of help shepherd the other students. We had a marvelous time. I thought one of the most 01:06:00rewarding things of my academic career was graduate students and helping them, mentoring them, and taking them to meetings and that sort of thing. Maybe because of my own graduate experience, I very much felt the hands-on importance of working with students, they didn't just kind of go off and do their own thing without kind of regularly discussing it.

We had a lab that's still there on the first floor of Nash Hall. We would have weekly meetings and sometimes people would have to come close the door because we were too noisy. And they become sort of your academic family. My research in 01:07:00the '80s and '90s, my personal research was generally in the John Day basin, a variety of projects that we had that actually continued after 2000 but that was when it was. I think because of my teaching responsibilities later on maybe beginning in 1998 and until I retired, more of my research was involved with my graduate students closer by in the Willamette Valley, at the Andrews, and at 01:08:00college doing research here. Though, I will admit that one of my students did fire ecology in northern Washington. Another of my graduate students did work down in the deserts of southern Oregon. So they weren't all right here. That period of time where Hiram was continuing to do his research out there but it became impractical for me to work as intensively also. When we did work out in the John Day we took the team out there and camped for weeks. We were just gone. It's only been in retirement that I've really learned to enjoy the Willamette Valley in the summertime. It's so much cooler here than it is in eastern Oregon. 01:09:00It was an experience where you would think, wow, I'm getting paid to do this wonderful thing that's out here learning. That also became, those experiences became the fodder for the books that I've written subsequently.

CP: Let's talk about a few of these projects. The one from the mid '90s it seems like it was pretty significant was connectivity in Columbia River, watersheds and implications for endangered salmon. Am I correct about that?

JL: Yes. We did a series of different research projects that had to do with sorting out the ecology of anadromous and resident salmonids. So, steelhead and 01:10:00rainbow trout for the most part. So, we had these various projects where we were looking at the importance of riparian and my role was to look at what was available invertebrate prey for the fish. That is, the insects that were in the stream and those that fell in and looking not only at what we found by collecting those insects but also what we found by looking at their diet. The important lessons we learned was that temperature in that semi-arid region is a strong driver of the health of the fish. It does influence the availability of 01:11:00prey but their need for those cooler temperatures drove where they were distributed and that meant a lot of tagging of fish and following them, snorkeling. My graduate students worked on lots of sampling in tributaries and in the middle fork of the John Day and south fork in order to figure out how fish are making their way. Hiram continued that research looking at the physiology of the fish that would be quite different in some of these very warm streams. That was different than what people had seen in western Oregon, where 01:12:00the habitat requirements were different. The water was cooler. They were fed by springs and seeps so that while temperature still is relevant the fish are not as commonly forced into the extreme of what they can physically can tolerate. The grant you're talking about there is one of them. There was one from NSF. There were some from BPA the kind of variety of them that were out there.

CP: I've teased out a couple others that seem to have a close connection with public policy or with issues that are of public currency and another one is conceptual basis for ecology responses to dam removal. Can you tell me about that?

JL: Well, that one was co-authored and I think there was a period of time where we were looking at the importance of what was going on in the big rivers in gravel removal and in the kinds of issues that affect fish in the bigger systems and so I think that was one of the ones where I helped put together information but it wasn't as fundamentally my research. During a little bit before that there was a big project that Stan Gregory helped me participate in that was sponsored by EPA and eventually it became a project where my research assistant 01:14:00and I helped develop the protocols for monitoring invertebrates in systems across the country. We were looking to see how many samples this would take, how are you going to do this so that we can compare samples taken in one basin with samples taken in another. It was I think in the '80s stream ecology was really coming on and we were learning something about the importance of resources as they change from the headwaters to the main stems, how things are different, things which to us are very obvious now but needed to be developed conceptually 01:15:00as models.

The EPA monitoring project was trying to say okay if a lot of people do these samples how are we going to compare them. So I think one of the important pieces of work that we did was about variability in invertebrates that has been one of those papers that has been cited a number of times simply because it was fundamental. We found that sampling in places like the Andrews where we knew that we had the kind of optimal opportunity for diversity you could sample more than 50 samples and still be finding new species, which is crazy. You have to decide how many samples you're going to take. So that was one of those papers where we said, alright, well let's look at the slope of the line and come up with some sort of universal agreement and it's made a big difference because now 01:16:00there's a sort of standard way of collecting so that we're getting at the diversity of invertebrates in different places and judging whether that is important, what's controlling the differences.

CP: A bit later on you did a project on clear cutting on stream macro invertebrates?

JL: I have continued an interest in the effect of clear cutting and forestry practices in general on what happens in the stream. I'm not sure which one you're thinking of because there's been quite a few and there've been these various projects, most of them associated with the College of Forestry and my 01:17:00colleagues in U.S. Forest Service. We look at what kind of vegetation there is, what size of stream it is, how much light there is, and these different levels of how many pieces of the story do you put together in order to understand it. It happens that in clear cut and what we've learned actually pretty recently by comparative experimental studies that took in the last since retirement the research that I've done having these 10-year projects. You know if you're going to retire it's not the most clever thing to take on long-term projects, but I did. But that has given us an advantage for looking at what happens before 01:18:00harvest, after harvest, under different conditions in replication. That's what required in order to understand it.

Despite that, we still have places where things are so different that you have to tease it out and we are learning that when you clear cut down to the very edge which is very uncommon now, they don't do that anymore, you take away all that vegetation that provides habitat, qualities like coolness and you get high exposure to light and you change what goes on in the stream. In headwaters in Oregon presently there is no regulation for what you can do in fish-less 01:19:00headwaters, and so invertebrates become your indicator of what's going on. But if you leave a few trees or you leave a buffer you get a very different response and that's kind of a nuance that we're really working on now. It isn't rocket science anymore to see that if you get rid of everything that you change the stream and you don't get the same kinds of organisms that live there anymore but what we're learning about is how can you modify it and still be able to cut and still maintain some of those stream qualities. That's a number of projects kind of brought into it that we're still working on.

When I retired, Norm Anderson, who was an emeritus professor here in aquatic entomology said to me you know what your lab does is different than what other people do and our interest was looking at the diversity across reaches and streams and then looking across watersheds. Doing them over and over again enough so that you had confidence that what you were looking at was representing fairly the condition, looking them across seasons. That's a different approach than going out to a stream and figuring out who lives there. That's an important thing to do, to know exactly by species all the different things that are there. 01:21:00We were interested in the community not just individual species. And the two kind of work together, I think.

One of the things that we worry about is we're losing that expertise of people who do spend looking at the individual taxa and understand and explore all the nuances. It's amazing how little we know. We think that we've gone so far, but naming things is one thing, understanding their life history or how it compares to another thing requires very detailed work, and it's something that I appreciate very much. I have a senior research assistant who worked with me from the very first days of those EPA monitoring projects and so he and I worked 01:22:00together for 28 years, and we're just finally finishing he now working with my colleagues and moving on working similar projects but he is one of those people who can pull out of his hat all kinds of important information about different species and what makes each one important and where you would find it. He can do that and I think when we think about the future of the kind of science that I'm involved in we can't leave behind that kind of talent. We need to nurture that approach in an era where we have such big problems that sometimes we think that 01:23:00everything needs to be just scaled up, but to understand how it works sometimes we need that other.

CP: A kind of mechanical question-you were promoted to associate professor in 2003. Did you go from a non-tenure-tracked position to a tenured position? Am I understanding that correctly?

JL: No.

CP: Okay.

JL: I was always a non-tenure. They gave me the opportunity. Particularly entomology said you know if you want a tenure track position then you can have it in entomology. That was when we had an entomology department. I kind of thought about the luxuries I had by being... part of it was that I appreciated a 01:24:00salary but my life didn't depend on that salary in the... we were so used to kind of working things out and I was able to do these one-on-one things. I was an advisor for a number of student groups for underrepresented kids. I could spend an intense amount of time sometimes of the year working in our national stream ecology programs which we called NABS at the time, and now the Society for Freshwater Science. I could do things because I wanted to, and I decided that's why I wanted to do it.

By then I was working full-time. Full-time really did mean full-time from the 01:25:00time I got up until the time I went to bed. It was long, long days. But you know in the end it was fine. It was also though the reason that when I retired I was always an associate professor retired. If you're not tenure tracked you can't be emeritus so that's probably the only catch that has been there. But it gave me this freedom to really do things that I thought was important and I was completely supported by, morally supported by, each of the department heads that I worked with. Sometimes they'd be interim or whatever. The deans were very 01:26:00supportive and I was surprised. Even you kind of march up the hierarchy and the provost knew what I was doing on occasion. I was surprised. I was just doing my thing and wasn't trying to get much attention but it worked. It was fun.

CP: Let's shift gears to your relationship with the OSU Press. From what I can tell, it began with a couple of editorial projects, the first being To Harvest, To Hunt: Stories of Resource Use in the American West. Is that correct?

JL: That's the beginning of my relationship working on a project with them. I had served 5 years on their board previous to that. I chaired their board two years and one of those years was when we were searching for our new press 01:27:00director. I forget what they call, anyway, the head. So I had developed a kind of a relationship with the editors. The OSU Press is small but everybody works in a very tight way with each other and I enjoyed it. Something that influenced me a lot was that I had begun to feel it was important to find a way of relating our science to a lay audience. To that end, I participated in writing group with Kathleen Dean Moore who had set up several other little small groups and I had said to her well you know if you ever have a chance to set up another one I'm 01:28:00thinking that I would like to try that out. Luckily, she set up one that she participated in with several other people and that went on for about four years toward the end of my tenure as on faculty before I retired, where we worked together too. We were all scientists learning to write in a much more colloquial way. That prepared me for editing and doing the writing projects that came after that. The group disbanded about the time I got going with the writing of the 01:29:00books. It's ironic that it kind of happened that way and the other folks were not as... they didn't have a sort of a goal for what they would produce and I'm not sure what exactly what happened with Kathleen Dean Moore of course and very successful. But she was already writing. She was just kind of leading us along so that we would get the idea of what might need to be done but that was very helpful. The press asked me, Mary Braun, asked me to write To Harvest, To Hunt because my class had no text. She knew that.

And she thought it lent itself very much to that. So, I sought out different people to bring those essays together and some of them I just, I wrote to them and I said so here's what I'm going. I used your work in my class and I was hoping you might contribute a paper. Some of them were people I knew who had a perspective I thought needed to be presented and then some I really had to find. Okay, I'm looking for someone who will do something on the ranchos of California. Who's out there? Then I had to really do some investigative prodding to figure out who might be the authors who could contribute. That was my first editing project and when I got done I was just sort of cultural geology was 01:31:00something I'm learning about but I'm... that's not my expertise as a scholar. I really should do something that is relevant and so then I said to Mary Braun, so Mary I think I want to edit a book about aquatic insects. Here's my notion: I think I'll ask my aquatic etymology friends to tell a story because I believe in the power of story as a way of conveying important information. I combine that with the interest in monitoring. So each person will write a different story that addresses an insect that they have great passion for that contributes to understanding for people who do monitoring about why we're looking at these 01:32:00insects? What makes them interesting? She said, you really want to edit another book? I said, yeah, I think it'll be fun. She said, okay. So that's what I did. It was tougher because then we were working with people I knew pretty well, many of them I knew quite well. And I had to edit what they had written because I was asking them to write for a lay audience something they knew a lot about. So, I learned the fine art, you know I really learned to be diplomatic in the ways in which we got that one done. That worked out well and everybody was happy to have done it and it is used in a few situations I think as a, not quite a text but sort of a supplementary book. The first one is used as a text in some places. 01:33:00That's how those two came together.

CP: And then came the fiction.

JL: And then came the fiction. So, it happened that the National Science Foundation LTER program wanted, had decided they were going to have a series of children's books, one for each of the long-term ecological research stations across the country and they had someone in charge who had all written her story about scientists' experience in the Alaska intended for an elementary audience. Then she had written another one about water in the Rockies. They were beginning 01:34:00to kind of ferret out these things. The charge that they put out there is we would like stories written for each LTER site aimed at mid-elementary students. I thought, well that's interesting. Because there's a lot of children's books about science written for younger kids. You can imagine all these wonderful picture books and kind of very focused books. So, I got into my head about the way I wanted it. It's sort of like the way I did my class. I said, this is what I want to do. And they went, oh, gee that's not quite the way we were going to publish it. They said they wanted it to be a picture book about, there's a size for picture books. I said, this is for mid-elementary. I want to write a book 01:35:00for middle elementary kids. It's going to be narrative.

Then I said it's going to be a story and it would be filled with science-based information and have a journal. They went, oh, just way too long. I said, oh okay. Well, I'm going to do it anyway. So, I wrote the book and while I was doing that I made it known that I wanted it to be illustrated with scientifically, sort of scientific drawings of the animals I was talking about and then have this journal that would be at the end of each one and Peg Herring was, I knew Peg but I didn't realize she had this extraordinary talent. But one of our mutual friends, who I worked with for many, many years said you know you 01:36:00should talk to Peg. So Peg and I got together and we went whoa, this is going to be great. By the time I was approaching the press I had NSF backing not financially but backing and Peg was on board and I'm saying, so how about if we do this children's book. They'd never done a children's book and they went, oh. I said, here, here's the way it's going to be. I sort of knew what the press wants to know about a book proposal. And Mary Braun was willing to give it a shot. Absolute kudos to Mary because you know they hadn't done any children's books. It meant that she had to go find reviewers that were appropriate and they 01:37:00had to think about what's the format of this book and I was just crossing my fingers. I thought, oh, no these are such beautiful drawings I hope this works. Because children's books can be, the drawings might be pretty nice but done on newspaper kind of paper in black and white they lose something in translation. So I was thinking, oh we'll hope for the best here.

And we pulled it off. It was just wonderful. It took five years from the time that I followed the idea. It took about two years to write it and get it and have Peg on board and then another chunk of time to put her drawings with my narrative and then the review took a long time. It was hard for them to get the 01:38:00reviews done and then the production. That was a long period of time. But it was very successful. We got the John Burrows Association at the American Museum of Natural History of New York gives awards every year for non-fiction science books and when they called me they said, you know we give awards for non-fiction but everybody thought that yours was so unusual we just had to give... so they made a special award for us and that gave us a whole lot of oomph. It validated the notion we had of having fiction be a narrative surrounding science, real 01:39:00science that people understood that that's what was going on. It resulted in my actually giving presentations to people in University of Wisconsin in La Crosse because of their interests there. They have a very large integrated program that includes educators and biologists. I realized that AAAS was very interested in what we were doing as well. Peg says, well you know what we need to do. We need to have a series. I said, ugh, I don't know. She said, yeah, we can have four places, we have four locations, four seasons. It'll be perfect.

I said, hmm. Okay. So, I had been doing some research in the Andrews with my 01:40:00colleagues. I had taught classes up there. Those became the core for information for Ellie's Log. The second book was based on my experiences in Eastern Oregon. Ricky's Atlas is about, it contains a lot of my experiences on the middle fork of the John Day. We tried to make them ambiguous enough so that people from different parts of the country can feel some relationship to the story rather than it being so specific that then they dismiss it as being oh that's that place not my place. That book was also very well received. That one we got the 01:41:00AAAS award for hands-on science book for kids. And Peg took on the major responsibility for the third book which was Ellie's Strand, which takes place over on the coast and talks about the importance of taking care of what we consume and the problem we have now with micro-plastics in the ocean and the ways in which kids can take an initiative in making it better with cleanup and those sorts of things in addition to doing the things we always do about the wonders of what you see on the beach. So that one came out last fall. In production right now is the fourth book which is the one about city and we're 01:42:00calling, we have to call that city Portland pretty early on. You just can't get away from it. But it is about wildlife that lives in the city. In the end we have 4 seasons, 4 Oregon locations, the same 2 kids and you get to be friends with the kids. They have strong personalities and they meet other people and kids in each of the books that provide a different context.

CP: Was that an easy transition for you to shift from academic writing to fiction writing for children's audience. I have to assume that took some work.

JL: You're right. It takes a lot of work. Every time it takes a lot of work. The transition from scientific writing to writing for lay audiences I think was most 01:43:00concentrated in the second book waiting for bugs, those essays by my colleagues because I was the editor. I was really making those stories come alive in a way that's different than what we do with the scientific paper. All the authors were on board with that notion but it wasn't easy for them either. So that helped me in getting better at that, but then the transition to not only children's story but because it has, it was a narrative with conversation and the structure was really different. It's challenging but you just go for it, you know. I was 01:44:00surprised in this fourth book which is the urban book that I'm still working on that. This book probably will get, my hunch, will get the most scrutiny because when I was talking about an old growth forest or an eastern Oregon arid system, even to some extent the beach, these are not things that everybody knows. But everybody knows about a city and why isn't this in this book or why is it this way because this is what I see. It is scrutinized in many, many ways in reference to what, someone's own personal experience is. So you have to be really, really careful and there's so much to tell.

It's easy to slip into adult language. I worked hard and we had reviewers who helped in that way say, got to kind of pull it back here. To do that for a child in a way that doesn't, that gives them respect for understanding the fullness of more sophisticated language. The joy of writing for kids in mid-elementary is they can understand. They are able to think about it and come up with their own ideas. And you're trying to do that but you have to do it in a language that makes sense. I listen carefully to the conversations of my granddaughter who is 16 now but who was much younger when I started. I volunteered recently for the 01:46:00last 5 years at an elementary library where the kids were all over and I was listening to them. You try to get an ear for that. But still even in the first book I had to change the snacks that they had because those are snacks that my kids like. Well, these children they don't eat those kinds of snacks. It's those kinds of things. It's kind of funny, but it makes it, it keeps it a fresh sort of enterprise every time.

CP: I know you've done a lot of K-12 outreach in support of this project. What kind of feedback have you received when you're' out with kids and their teachers?

JL: We think that the children who most naturally enjoy our books are the ones 01:47:00who are already gone out there who are very... who go with their parents, who like to camp in the outer doors and early on we would get messages from parents, grandparents, aunties and uncles about how the child that they gave the book to took it and wore it out going out the outer doors, or used the journal and then they went out and did their journals themselves. Those are things that come very naturally and in the classes that we go into the classrooms often we do a journaling and a drawing sort of exercise that gets the kids involved. We're hoping in those ways we can capture the kids maybe who were like me, who didn't 01:48:00get to go with their family that much. Family didn't do that. But they can relate to it in this virtual way.

What has been a little bit more difficult is figuring out how to best help teachers. Teachers are overwhelmed. They have so much to do. This would be just another thing that they'd have to develop and very few have the kind of time to take on something extra besides what they're already kind of, they're schedules are full. We started out by having a teacher's guide. We wrote a teacher's guide. We have tried things online according to the national standards to say this is what you can do. We're into our third iteration of how to do that and we're going to have a workshop sponsored for the coastal teachers for the third 01:49:00book and we're going to experiment with some exercises to see does this work? If it that works can that be a model for us to teach other teachers. So that element remains challenging in that to find the right combination for the ways in which teachers can use it, many of them recognize the value of the book but to be able to use it in their classroom, we're trying to make it accessible by providing classroom sets where possible.

The OSU Extension, particularly in our department, is helping me make that happen and we're considering ways that we can ramp that up some more so that if 01:50:00a teacher wants to use it in the classroom it's like a textbook they can say I need to check this out for this month and they get the whole set of books and all the kids can read it. That would be the ideal circumstance, not easy. When you write a children's book and your mission is to get it into classrooms, it's not just the writing. The writing is only the beginning. There's all these other pieces. I think it's going to occupy me for a few years.

CP: Which segues nicely into, I have a couple of concluding questions and the first is just what else is ahead for you? We know there's another book on the way.

JL: Yeah, well, we're tying up the research. I was looking at... we've been talking about writing after retirement and when we had those long-term projects and I had about a million dollars' worth of funding since I retired. So those 01:51:00projects when they finish it's not an easy task to wrap them up and present what you know. Sometimes when you have a lot of replication you have a lot of variation and you have to sort out... so we've been working on that. In my dream world, we would get that wrapped up in the next year. That's maybe what I'm hoping for. I do love writing for kids. So, I play with what might be next. That hasn't really solidified.

I do think that I would like to be able to translate the minority experience in 01:52:00a way that speaks to middle elementary and it's a very, that's a lot harder nut to crack. I think that what happens to me is I close one thing and something else sort of pops up. One of the things that I have always worked on with our national stream association is bringing into the fold more students of color and that's finally happened. We've developed a mentoring program that is now into its 8th year and we're bringing in a lot of different students. I shepherd that but I've given it over to the younger faculty who are now not quite so young. 01:53:00You have to kind of develop new leadership for things and so this is the period of time of transition. I don't think that I'm walking away from anything but I'll probably be advisory more than I had been before, not quite so much hands-on.

CP: And my last question-OSU, a university you've been associated with for a long time that has changed a fair amount over the course of that association. What do you think of when you think of it now in terms of how it's positioned and where it's heading?

JL: Well, I think the very proactive stance that the university, the college and 01:54:00our department are taking to bringing in a wider student base is important, and given the state we live in I think it's going to be challenging but I'd like to see that kind of increase. You have to grow it from the base. You have to have the undergraduate presence that rise.

Hiram and I were just reading some scholarship applications today and reading about one Latino student who I think's going to be one of those kids. When the 01:55:00potential's there, and if there is no potential in the youth it's not going to happen. I think that that's very encouraging. I come from a department where I'm just one of the folks. Everybody in my department's very productive, bring in a lot of research money. Very innovative. Always looking for new ways of teaching. Within our department, within our college we're kind of, while what we do is recognized to a certain degree, we're sometimes sort of like the second cousin because people who do what we do aren't necessarily the folks who have big 01:56:00corporate connections so we don't get the new buildings. We don't get the new labs. We just kind of persevere for the most part and in a dream world our department always aims at finding housing that really supports our huge graduate student base and does those things to support the graduate and undergraduate education and research more fully than it does. That's just a constant complaint and this is my chance to say that but I think that it's hard in an institution that has so many pieces to it, who gets the most attention isn't always on an 01:57:00equal standing and that's kind of unfortunate and I can only hope that that would change.

I think our participation in online education is well-founded and I think that's going to be something that the university is probably going to change in ways that we can't even expect. We just don't know. But there's every reason to see that's the way higher education is going. I don't know what the solution to such high costs for students is. I worry. Who doesn't, about that? I think with your 01:58:00taping this in a year when they're beginning to look for a new president. Things change every time we get a new president and it'll be exciting to see that but I think the one thing that happened in the last decade is the OSU Press has gone from being a sort of independent little branch to becoming folded into what goes on in the library and from my perspective that's gone well. I think it's important that the OSU Press survived when other university presses have not, 01:59:00where publishing, the publishing world is changing in how we adjust to it remains to be seen but at least for kids I'm sure hard copy will be there for a long time. It's that hold a book in your hands and be able to go back and look at it and look at it thing that not everything's going to be electronic and I'm kind of glad that we're sort of part of that. Hopefully we can make it possible for other projects like ours.

CP: Yeah. Well, this has been great, Judy. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Good luck with the next book and everything else that awaits.

JL: [Laughs] Thank you.