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Chiyo and Perry Mori Oral History Interview, March 15, 2008

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EU: Okay, this is an oral history for the Japanese American Oral History Project. I'm

interviewing Perry and Chiyo Mori. Today is March 15, 2008, and we're at their home in

Eugene, Oregon. My name is Elizabeth Uhlig. Perry, to get started with, could you tell us your

name and where you were born?

PM: I'm Perry, Perry Mori and I was born in Watsonville, California.

EU: In what year?

PM: 1921.

EU: Could you start talking about your family? And your father and mother, where were they

born?

PM: My father was born in Hiroshima, some place. Now, where? I don't know. And my

mother was born in Yanai, I guess, Yamaguchi-ken. You have their birth dates?

1:00

EU: Okay.

EU: Perry, could you tell me again, what's your name -- do you have a Japanese name?

PM: Yes. Takeharu.

EU: Do you know why your parents gave you the name Perry?

PM: No, I don't know. I imagine - no, there's no neighbor I can remember that was named Perry or anything.

EU: Uh-huh. Yeah, and did your brothers and sisters also have --

2:00

PM: My brother has an English name, Roy, and my sister does not have -- she used "Jean" which was a name she put on herself, I guess.

EU: But, what's her real name then?

PM: Ikuye

EU: Ikuye

PM: Yeah.

EU: Yeah? Alright.

PM: In -- in fact, we all have very unusual names. My brother has a Japanese name, Tadahiro, and I've never heard of any of these names.

EU: Uh-huh. Hmm--So, you -- you said you -- your father came from Hiroshima and Chiyo, do you have the date when --

CM: No. When they came? His father?

EU: Uh-huh.

CM: No, I have no idea.

EU: No idea?

CM: Well, I can say it was early -- he was seven years old when the uncle 3:00brought him and that would be in what? 19 -- 1897, then, if he was born in 19 -- 1890.

EU: Uh-huh.

CM: So -- that's -- there's no way in confirming that.

EU: Yeah, and so do you have his birth date?

CM: Yeah, I gave it to --

PM: Yeah, February 20 --

CM: Eighth, 1890.

EU: 1890. Okay. Perry, can you tell me the story about how your father came to the United States when he was so young?

PM: Well, this is all hearsay and we -- he lost both his -- both of his parents and the uncle lived in New York and he came after him from New York and brought 4:00him over here.

EU: Okay.

PM: Now, I don't know if he had brothers and sisters or not. I have no idea.

EU: What -- what was his uncle doing in New York?

CM: He had a concession in --

PM: in --

CM: Coney Island -- is what we heard.

PM: Yeah, we heard they were selling senbei, you know?

CM: The crackers -- the Japanese crackers --

PM: Yeah. I mean this is all hearsay -- we, we have now way of substantiating any of this.

CM: This is what I remember from his mother telling us.

EU: So your father came over when he was young -- you say 7 or so. Do you think he helped out in the senbei?

CM: We have no idea. We have absolutely no idea.

EU: No idea. Okay. How long did he stay there? In Coney Island with his aunt and uncle?

5:00

CM: We have no idea.

EU: But, you were born in Watsonville, right?

PM: Uh-huh.

EU: So, how did he get to California?

PM: This -- we have no idea either. We -- I can't understand how he would have ended up in Watsonville, especially after living in New York.

EU: Uh-huh.

PM: But, he came there and he married my mother. I don't know. What - do you have a date of marriage?

CM: No.

PM: No.

EU: Okay. When did your mother come over? You said she was from Yamaguchi.

PM: Yeah.

EU: Uh, when was she born? I'm sorry.

CM: December 24th, 1898 and so, I assumed she came in 1912.

6:00

EU: Because she was 14 years old?

CM: That's what I remember.

EU: Okay. Do you have any story about how or why she came over? Who she came over with?

CM: No, because her parents were in Watsonville because Perry's grandparents came to the United States.

EU: Grandparents on your mother's side?

PM: Mhm.

CM: And so she came when she was 14.

PM: When they came over, they brought the youngest daughter.

EU: So, the grandparents were already in Watsonville?

CM: Yes.

PM: When my mother came? Yeah.

EU: And then -- okay. So, they left some children in Japan?

PM: Two.

CM: Well, there were three left in Japan originally.

PM: Well, yeah. My mother --

CM: The took the youngest went with them to the United States.

7:00

EU: Which was Perry's mother?

PM: No, my aunt.

CM: No, the youngest.

EU: Okay.

CM: Four sisters. Three were left in Japan with the grandparents.

EU: Okay.

CM: And the mother came when she was 14 and specifically to learn how to sew, I think. It's what she told me. And then she was supposed to go back, but she never did.

EU: So, you think that she wanted to learn how to make Western style clothing?

CM: Clothes.

PM: And the other two stayed in Japan.

EU: Did they ever come later?

PM: No.

EU: So, and then so, her oldest sister was here though?

PM: The youngest. The two older sisters were in Japan. And I don't know which -- 8:00one of them died in the Hiroshima bombing -- the A bomb.

EU: Okay.

PM: And the other one was in Yanai where my mother was born. When I went overseas, I visited her -- first and only time.

EU: Uh-huh. What -- Do you have any -- I mean where did she live? Was it in a farm, a village, in the city?

PM: No, it was in the town.

EU: In Hiroshima?

PM: No, in Yanai which was right below Hiroshima.

EU: Do you know what the family did?

PM: Oh, they had a shop. Now, I don't really remember exactly what kind of a shop it was.

CM: Well, that was your aunt --

PM: Yeah.

CM: So, not necessarily your grandparents' or, I mean, your mother's grandparents.

PM: What? The store? The store you mean? I have no idea where the store started.

9:00

CM: Because she married into this family.

PM: Oh yeah, she was Yoshi, wasn't she?

CM: No. Your aunt was.

PM: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. The aunt.

CM: The youngest one got Yoshi, not the oldest one.

PM: The one that was in Yanai.

CM: Why would she have Yoshi?

PM: No, not Yoshi. She went as -- that's right, she married into that other family there.

CM: That's right.

PM: That's right. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

CM: The youngest one took over the maiden name Jumura. She got the Yoshi.

PM: Okay. Yeah, okay. You know what Yoshi is?

EU: I'm sorry?

PM: Do you know what that means?

EU: No.

CM: Oh, that means.

PM: The -- the name is very important -- the name continues.

10:00

EU: Okay.

PM: And there were four daughters.

EU: Okay.

PM: So, one of them had to bring a husband into the family.

CM: To take over the name.

EU: Okay.

PM: That's what they call a Yoshi -- he comes in as -- that's a "Yoshi" - that's what they call him.

EU: Oh.

CM: He changes his name and takes over her --

EU: And so what was their family name?

PM: Jumura.

EU: So, he took over --

PM: No, she took over --

CM: The youngest daughter.

PM: Here, that was here. She got a Yoshi.

EU: So her husband then took her family name.

CM: And that's far going into your aunt's family. That's not --

EU: No, no it's fine. So it's interesting that even here in the United States they would continue those practices.

PM: Yeah.

CM: Very rare, but it has happened.

PM: Mhm.

EU: And do you know how your parents met? They met in Watsonville?

11:00

PM: How? I don't know either.

EU: What -- what was your father doing?

PM: He was working at the grocery store.

CM: I have no idea, I mean, in those days the marriages were arranged mostly.

EU: So, you think that their marriage was arranged too?

PM: Oh, I'm sure.

EU: Okay. So, your father then was working in a shop, you think?

PM: Yeah, I think he was working in a shop. We heard stories where he was at a grocery store, I guess, and he would go around to these different farms and deliver things, you know. That's what I heard.

EU: Did he ever work on any of the farms or?

PM: No, not that I know of.

12:00

EU: Okay. So, do you know when they were married? Did I ask you that?

PM: Do you remember?

CM: No, your sister was born -- what?

PM: 1919.

CM: 1919. So, I would assume that they married around -- about 1917 or 18 which would make her -- if I said she came over in 1912?

PM: That would make her 19 or so.

EU: 1917. So, your mother was fairly young then, if she came over in 1912 --

CM: Yeah, 19 or 20 when she --

PM: Yeah.

CM: She came over when she was 14.

13:00

EU: 14 in 1912.

CM: That's what I figured.

EU: Yeah, yeah.

PM: We're just going back trying to tie in dates.

EU: Yeah, yeah. So, let's see -- so, they were married and you had what a brother and a sister?

PM: Oh, I have an older sister and a younger brother.

EU: And so you grew up in Watsonville?

PM: Mhm.

EU: Where -- where did you live? In the town or the country?

PM: Yeah, in the town. We lived in town and we lived there until we evacuated.

EU: Oh, yeah, at the beginning of the war. Did -- then you went to school in Watsonville?

PM: Yeah, through high school.

EU: Was there much of a Japanese community around there?

14:00

PM: Yeah, there were quite a few Japanese there. You know. Yeah, there were quite a few.

CM: Well, there had to be, to support a Buddhist church.

PM: Yeah.

EU: So, did you go to the Buddhist church?

PM: Yeah, well, we were -- you know, you go with your parents and --

EU: Mhm.

PM: So, we were basically raised in Buddhist.

EU: Uh-huh.

PM: We had one Christian Church and one Buddhist church. The Jewish had a whole bunch of churches in Sacramento and the population was much greater than what we had there.

EU: While growing up, did you speak English or Japanese with your parents?

PM: A mixture.

EU: A mixture.

PM: [light laughter] Well, basically Japanese, you know, but we'd mix it up.

15:00

EU: So, did you learn your Japanese at home or did you go to a Japanese school?

PM: Well, we had Japanese school where we went on, I think, maybe we went on Saturday, but I don't recall whether we went Saturday or after regular school, I can't remember. But, most of us were not that interested, for we didn't learn very well.

EU: Okay. Well, what were you interested in? Did you participate in sports?

PM: Oh, well, you know, we had our own sport teams and things you know, like Church organizations.

EU: Uh-huh. What sports did you play?

PM: Baseball, basketball. I guess those were the two.

EU: Was there much of -- I mean, Japanese supermarkets and Japanese stores?

PM: Yeah, there were stores and you know, we had grocery stores and --

16:00

CM: Barber shop.

PM: Barber shop. We even had a pharmacy.

EU: Did you go into San Francisco?

PM: Every now and then. Not very often.

EU: Not very often.

PM: It was still at least 100 miles.

EU: Okay.

PM: Those days, 100 miles was pretty far.

EU: It was pretty far. Yeah, okay. So, in high school, what were your favorite subjects? What were you most interested in?

PM: Well, when we went to high school, the first question that your advisor asked you was, "Do you intend to go to college?" And if you said "yes" well then they would say "here" and you would have college prep courses. If you said "no" they put the men in shop and Ag and things of that sort. They put the women in sewing and cooking, I guess. So, if you were going to college, it was four years 17:00of this and four years of that, you know.

EU: And so that's the course you got in on. Did your parents expect you, encourage you then?

PM: Oh, yeah, they did. But, they encouraged us into a profession that was a self-employed type of a thing. The reason was you couldn't find a job.

EU: And why was that?

PM: Discrimination. And because of that, you found that most people would go into a self-employment type of a situation. They went into medicine. They went into dentistry. Very few went into engineering where you had to be employed by someone. Back then, you went into pharmacy, you know, things of that sort.

EU: And what were you planning then to go into?

PM: Well, I started out in Junior College in Salinas and it was just kind of a 18:00prep to get into Cal.

EU: University of California at Berkeley?

PM: Yeah, which was I guess the normal procedure, you went into community college and then from there you went into --

CM: It's cheaper that way --

PM: Yeah --

CM: You live at home and you get your two years out of the way because once you go to Cal you got to have dorm fees and all that.

PM: Of course, the war started before I got there.

EU: Yeah, so did you finish Salinas with Junior College?

PM: Yeah, yeah, I finished the Junior College and then, in fact, I got my diploma when I was in camp.

PM: It took me a little longer then my two years --

CM: Evidently. Evidently. Because I got mine in June. [Laughter]

19:00

EU: So, how old were you when the war started in 1941?

PM: and CM: Twenty.

EU: Twenty. And you were in junior college.

PM: Yeah, junior college.

CM: You were still in college when the war started?

PM: Hmm--

CM: It started in December.

PM: Yeah, I guess.

CM: I guess if you got your degree in camp, I guess.

EU: Do you remember Pearl Harbor?

PM: Oh yeah.

EU: What were you doing then?

PM: Well, we were playing basketball in San Jose when we heard this you know, the war started. Pearl Harbor. So, the game stopped.

EU: What kind of game was this?

PM: Oh, it was the church league. We were playing probably some Buddhist church team in San Jose. So, when the war -- when the news of it came out, everybody 20:00just quit and went home.

EU: What, what did you think?

PM: Oh, I don't remember.

EU: Yeah.

PM: Probably disgusted. Of course, we're too young. At twenty --

CM: Yeah, in those days at twenty, we were pretty naïve.

PM: Yeah. Pretty young.

CM: Not like the twenties today.

PM: Yeah, we -- I'm sure with the background we have now, things would have been a lot different the way we did things, but in those days, why, you followed what they told you.

EU: Did your parents -- I mean what did your parents think about Pearl Harbor? Did they harbor any --

PM: I don't know how they felt or --

CM: Well, my mother probably thought that that was so dumb.

PM: Now, that's true. But, other than that, I have no idea. All I remember is 21:00that when we were in camp and this "no-no" business came out, well they said "okay you, you kids" you know, it was up to us. Not, well most families, the parents decided the kids went along, but I think in our case the parents said, "Okay, what you want to do?" And there was no doubt in our minds.

EU: You would stay here.

PM: Oh yeah, we had no idea about wanting to go back that way. None of us had been there.

EU: So, when were you evacuated then?

PM: '42. Spring of '42.

EU: So, after Pearl Harbor in December, then you went back to school for awhile?

PM: Yeah, I guess, well, we were restricted, we couldn't travel.

22:00

CM: To travel what? Seven miles?

PM: Well, of course, going to Salinas was about 20 miles.

CM: I don't think you could have.

PM: So, I must have been through school by then. I don't remember.

EU: Where, where did you go first? Did you go to an assembly center?

PM: Yeah, Salinas.

EU: So, Salinas? Okay. Then, were you able to study at the Salinas assembly center?

PM: No. I guess I was through then by that time with all the required courses and everything because I remember when I was in camp, they gave me my AA.

CM: So, you must have finished in January of --

PM: Yeah, I may have, yeah.

EU: So, they gave you your AA degree in camp.

PM: Well, they just gave it to me.

23:00

EU: Just gave it to you.

PM: I think one of the teachers came in and gave it. Oh, it was a pretty small school at that time. It's called Hartnell now. I imagine it's a pretty good-sized school now.

EU: So, what -- when you went to the assembly center, what did your parents do with their home and their - ?

PM: Oh, well, we just locked it up and they told us you could take whatever you could carry. Was that what it was? So, we left most of the stuff there.

EU: Was there someone in town that was going to look out [for the stuff]?

PM: Yeah, the next door neighbor was supposed to take care of it.

EU: And did they?

PM: I think so. Except I hear that they came out and people took all the plants that were out in the yard.

EU: Oh yeah?

24:00

PM: Yeah. [Chuckles]

EU: So, were you -- after the camp, were your parents able to come back to that house?

PM: No, no. They sold it before.

EU: They had sold it.

PM: Yeah, yeah. It was -- the house and everything was sold while we were in camp.

EU: Okay, okay. Then, how long were you in the assembly center at Salinas?

PM: When did we go to Tule Lake then? End of '42?

CM: Oh no, it was over the summer that we were there.

PM: So, we went in summer.

CM: We went in summer and we didn't stay very long.

PM: So, we left there in the summer of '42.

CM: I'm drawing a blank. Well, I can't remember more than a month or two is all we stayed I think.

PM: It seems to me longer than that.

25:00

CM: Well, I don't remember much, too.

PM: Yeah, probably about the summer that we left and went to Tule Lake.

EU: And then you went to --

PM: Yeah.

EU: Your whole family then?

PM: Yeah.

EU: Your parents and your brother and sister?

PM: Yeah.

EU: Okay. Then, how long were you at Tule Lake?

PM: About a year.

EU: While you were in Tule Lake, what did you do?

PM: I taught high school. I taught in high school.

EU: What subjects did you teach?

PM: Math.

EU: Math.

PM: Yeah. Yeah, I taught algebra and geometry. That was interesting. I think that's probably where I got the interest I wanted to teach.

EU: Uh-huh. Did your parents -- what did they do in camp? Did they have jobs or --

26:00

PM: Oh no, I don't think they had jobs. I can't remember what all they did. Do you remember what?

CM: Your parents?

PM: Yeah.

CM: No, I can't remember.

PM: Because we didn't know each other then.

EU: Yeah. And did -- what -- when were you able to leave Tule Lake?

PM: Oh, it must have been about the summer of '43 when I left. There were people leaving by that time. And it was just a question of some place to go to.

EU: And where did you go then?

PM: I went to Chicago and there was a brethren hostel there that was letting us come to.

EU: Okay.

PM: So, there were a number of us there from different camps. There was a number of less than ten, but they were good enough to take us in. We went there and 27:00couldn't get into school although they claimed there were schools that would take you there. There weren't too many schools that would take us and so I went to just a regular day labor, job just to have enough money to get by.

EU: So, you were living with all these other young men?

PM: Yeah, well, until we find a place to stay and then we moved there because we couldn't stay there that long.

EU: And so you moved into apartments?

PM: Yeah, in fact, I moved into the YMCA.

EU: Okay. Was your brother also there?

PM: No, he went to --

CM: Utah, I think. Farm or something.

PM: Yeah, some place in Utah or Montana or someplace out there -- Idaho. Oh, yeah, he went out there as a farm laborer. Yeah, he went out there and then he 28:00moved to

Minneapolis.

EU: And so you and your brother were out there, what about your sister?

PM: She stayed with my mother. Well, my father died in '43. So, she stayed with my mother.

EU: In Tule Lake?

PM: Yeah, and stayed there until they had to move. They went from there to Amache.

EU: Amache was a camp in Colorado?

PM: Yeah, Colorado. That was '44 or '43?

CM: '43

PM: '43

CM: Your sister got married in '44. In January in Amache.

EU: Do you know why your mother and sister had to leave then to Amache?

PM: We had to leave Tule Lake.

CM: Tule Lake became segregated.

29:00

EU: Okay. Segregated for?

PM: Well, are you familiar with this balloting of the "no no, yes yes"?

EU: I've heard of that. Do you want to explain a little bit?

PM: Well, I don't remember the exact wordings, but one was the --

CM: Your loyalty to the United States and for the old folks we wouldn't let them sign because they can't renounce their Japanese citizenship because they're not allowed

citizenship in the United States.

EU: Right.

CM: They were not allowed to take a test to become a citizen. They'd be people with no country then. So, we would not let them sign these.

EU: So your family like Perry's family, the children made the decision?

CM: Mhm.

EU: And so --

CM: So, we were shipped out.

PM: Yeah. That became the camp for the "no no" people and I guess if was 30:00continued long enough, they would have shipped them back to Japan. They did send some, didn't they?

CM: Mhm. Some went -- wanted to go back. The old folks at least. Kids had no choice. If they were under age, they had no choice but to go with the family. But, they were allowed to come back.

PM: Yeah, after the war they came back, a lot of them came back didn't they? Yeah, the kids. I don't know if the parents came back.

CM: Well, yeah. Some of them.

PM: Some of them did.

CM: Oh, well from what I read.

PM: Now, that -- that is when they started getting the riots in Tule Lake.

EU: Yeah, I've heard that Tule Lake was pretty radical --

PM: Oh yeah, it got pretty rough after the "no no" people got in there after and all the other people left you know.

31:00

CM: Yeah, everybody was just shipped out to different camps -- Utah, Arkansas, Idaho, and Colorado.

EU: So, Perry, your mother and sister then -- you said your father died in the camp?

PM: Yeah, he died at Tule Lake.

EU: Was he sick or?

PM: He got pneumonia and that was in '43. So then, my sister and mother moved to Arizona.

CM: Arizona?

PM: I mean Colorado.

EU: Colorado? Okay, okay.

PM: I was thinking of [?].

EU: So, you were in Chicago though?

PM: Yeah.

EU: Were you ever able to get into a college?

PM: Uh, no. I got drafted before then. You see they -- they reclassified us. We became undesirable aliens and then I guess in '44 they changed that to 1A again. 32:00So they changed it, and then they started drafting us. I was in Chicago and I guess my brother was in Denver at that time. So, I knew I was going to get drafted, so I left Denver -- I mean left Chicago -- to come back to Denver and in the meanwhile my mother and sister were there, too, so I moved to Denver and then I got drafted in Denver.

EU: Okay. And so, you went into the Army then?

PM: Uh yeah, well, we had no choice either you know. We were drafted as replacements for the 442nd. You see they were all over Italy. So we were drafted, took basic training and we were supposed to --

CM: This was in the all-Japanese unit.

EU: The 442nd was --

PM: Yeah, uh-huh.

33:00

CM: Uh-huh.

PM: Well, the training -- the basic training was all the same -- it was all Japanese. They took two companies, trained us, and shipped us out.

EU: The 442nd -- they had been fighting in Italy --

PM: And France.

EU: And Europe --

PM: Yeah, you hear the people that were over there and they had some pretty hard times over there. I can see why, too.

CM: And in the Pacific they were interpreters from Minnesota.

PM: Yeah, Snelling. Savage -- I guess it started out as Savage and then Snelling and then it became Monterey.

EU: So, you were being trained as a soldier. You expect to go over to Europe with the 442nd?

PM: Well, yeah, yeah.

EU: And did you ever get over to Europe?

PM: Uh, no, we went to Fort Mead which is in Maryland, [?], I guess, and then the war ended. So, I tried to get to Germany, but I couldn't get there. Of 34:00course, the war's still going on, in the Pacific, so they came in to try and recruit us to go to language school. So, you might say that maybe half of them went to language school and the other half got shipped to Germany. And for some reason or another, there were about sixty of us that didn't go to either place and we ended up in Texas. And then from Texas, we ended up in Monterey.

EU: So, you did end up in the language school?

PM: Well, that's where it was just getting started there. They were still in Minnesota, but they were getting moved over there. But, in the meanwhile, the war ended in the Pacific, so they said well, they were going to form these military government teams and so they put us in there. We told them we couldn't speak the language, but they said "that's alright you'll learn." Well you know, 35:00that's not an easy language to learn.

EU: No, it isn't.

PM: So, we ended up there -- we ended up in Japan.

EU: So, this was -- you were -- this was during the occupation then?

PM: Yeah, well, we were -- the war ended in September --

EU: Uh, August.

PM: August? We landed in September, so it's a good thing the war ended, but you know, I spent a year there or a little over a year there and then I came back.

EU: Where in Japan were you?

PM: In Northern Japan, in Sendai.

EU: Sendai. What was it like -- I mean, how did the Japanese react to you the Americans coming over and to you in particular for being a Japanese American?

PM: Well, you know, you're in G.I. uniform and if you didn't put on any appearance that you recognized what they were saying --

CM: That you understood.

PM: Yeah, yeah they would keep talking, but the minute you made any sign that 36:00you knew what they were saying, they would say anymore. So, they knew probably that we were Japanese, but they weren't sure. In fact they would say, he sure looks like a Japanese you know. We could speak enough to converse, but that was about it.

EU: Was Sendai pretty much destroyed?

PM: Oh, yeah, it was all burned. In fact, most of Japan was burned. When I was there I spent two weeks traveling the island and I would say ninety percent of the place was burned.

EU: At that point, were you able to go to Hiroshima?

PM: Yeah, I did. I went through there and there were nothing but tree stumps.

EU: Yeah.

PM: And Yanani in Yamaguchi Prefecture. I went through there and I went to my aunt's place where my mother was born, so I visited there for a little while. It 37:00was just you know the first time seeing them, there's not really a sense of saying these are my relatives, you know, other than that they told you. They looked alike. That was about it. So, that was the first and only time I've seen them. My mother went back in the '50's, wasn't it?

CM: I don't remember.

PM: We were already in Albuquerque, so it was in the mid-fifties sometime, I think. She got her citizenship and then she went over there for the first time since she came over here.

EU: Did she talk about what it was like seeing her sisters again, her sister again?

PM: Oh, she kept on saying that she wanted to go back to Japan, but when she got 38:00there and came back, we never heard that again. So, I guess it wasn't a real pleasant trip then.

EU: Yeah, yeah.

PM: Wasn't what she thought it was going to be like.

EU: Well, I'm sure Japan had changed so much.

PM: Oh, yeah, well. People keep telling me that they've been over there -- you should see what it's like. Stuff happened and it changed. I didn't have any desire to go back. I don't know why, but I'm still an American.

EU: Yeah. So, you were -- when did you get out of the Army then? That must have been forty --

PM: '46. You say I got home in November?

CM: October.

PM: October?

CM: Eli's birthday.

PM: Oh. But, then I went back to Chicago and got into school in January.

39:00

EU: What school -- what university?

PM: Northwestern. And that was just by accident that I happened to end up there.

EU: How did that --

PM: Well, I went to visits a friend and he was going to register for school and he said, "Come on, Perry." So, I went with him and he sent me into the Dean's office, so I went and talked to the Dean and before I knew it, I was signed up for the next semester. I signed up in business which was -- I'd never had a business course before. Of course the intent there was that I could always transfer once I got in.

EU:: Well, why did they sign you up for business?

PM: Well, that's where he was going to register. That's where I tagged along with him, see. My intent was well, let's sign-up and then I can transfer, you know, within the college if I had to or somewhat within the school and when I 40:00got in there and started taking course, it was interesting. I said, "oh well, I'll see where it goes." So, I graduated.

EU: Were you on the G.I. Bill then?

PM: Yeah, mhm, oh yeah, we couldn't afford to go otherwise.

EU: Did you also work?

PM: No, no. Got a little help from home.

EU: So, when did you graduate then?

PM: Oh, I got my bachelor's in '48. I got a master's in '50, I guess. Was it '50?

EU: Was that also from Northwestern?

PM: Yeah, mhm.

EU: Also, in business?

PM: Yeah.

EU: Okay. So, let's take a break.

PM: Okay.

EU: This will be the end of Part 1.

PM: Part 1. [Laughter]

41:00

EU: Okay, this is part two. Chiyo, let's start with you and your family's history. What is your full name and when were you born?

CM: Chiyo Sato Mori. I was born August 22, 1921, in Stockton, California.

EU: Where was your family from in Japan?

CM: From Aichi I don't know where, but from a prefecture of Aichi. And my father came first and I don't know when he came. Then he went back to Japan and got 42:00married and came back. And then I think he came back by himself and then my mother followed a year or two after.

EU: What was his name?

CM: Ichitaro Sato. And my mother's name was Toki Sato. But they were not related. Same last name, though.

EU: Was she also from Aichi?

CM: I don't know.

EU: Do you know how they met or was it an arranged marriage?

CM: I imagine it was arranged.

EU: What was your father doing in California?

CM: At the time I think he was in grapes, I think. Back before that he was in 43:00Vacaville in the orchards.

EU: So he worked in the orchard?

CM: I think it was their whole fortune; he and one other man. Then after, they were in Lodi, into grapes. And my sister was born in Stockton, I was born in Stockton, my brother was born in Campbell. After that, in 1923 or must be about '24 or so we moved to Sacramento, California. Then my father went into hotel business.

EU: Do you know why they decided to move into the city?

CM: I have no idea.

44:00

EU: What part of Sacramento was the hotel?

CM: In the old Sacramento, what they call the "Old Sacramento." That's where the Japanese town was. There was a huge Japanese town in Sacramento.

EU: I think you said before that there were Buddhist temples?

CM: There was a Buddhist temple, there were offshoots of Buddhism, there must have been about three or four of them. There was a Baptist church, a Methodist church, Presbyterian church. So there were quite a few Japanese churches in Sacramento.

PM: These were all Japanese Churches and Congregations. All Japanese.

45:00

EU: So did you then speak Japanese at home? Or English?

CM: Mixed. I imagine that I spoke Japanese until I started school or after my sister started school. And we went through all the schooling in Sacramento. We went to Japanese School after the American School. We went for an hour a day.

EU: What did they teach you at the Japanese School?

CM: Language.

EU: Just language?

CM: Yes. How to read and write.

EU: Did you learn other Japanese culture--like tea ceremony or flower arrangement?

46:00

CM: That kind of thing was not taught in school. I remember my sister had tea ceremony, but that was a separate thing. When a teacher from Japan came and you signed up and my folks signed my sister up and she took lessons. But I never did. I was the younger one.

EU: So, you went through high school there?

CM: Kindergarten, grade school, junior high, high school. Then I went two years Junior College and I finished in '41. And then in August of '41 I went to the 47:00Haymore School of Design in San Francisco. And that's where I was when the war started.

EU: During high school, for example, were you involved with clubs? Or what your main interests?

CM: Well, Japanese Citizens Clubs and different clubs.

PM: There wasn't much mingling with the Caucasians. Was that true in Sacramento too?

CM: Well, they had CSF, you know, they were all the clubs, whichever.

PM: There wasn't too much intermingling--in Watsonville. We didn't have that 48:00many different organizations either, you know. It wasn't that big a school.

CM: Well, at that time, there were only two high schools in Sacramento. Then one opened when we were Juniors in high school, so. But until then, there were over three

thousand.

EU: Did you work with your parents in the hotel? Did you help?

CM: Uh-huh. On weekends.

EU: And what did you do?

CM: Making beds.

EU: Did you get paid for that or were you just expected?

CM: Oh just expected to--that's a family thing [laughs]

EU: So did your life center around Japan Town?

49:00

CM: Yes.

EU: Perry said at his school that you either took a college prep course or? What about you? Did you have that same choice?

CM: Uh-Huh.

EU: And which did you chose?

CM: For the college, so I had all the math and science.

EU: What about your brother and sister? Did they go onto college?

CM: Yes, my sister got her degree from Cal Berkeley in 1930--1940, I guess maybe. And my brother was in Berkeley when the war started. And I was in San 50:00Francisco. My sister was home.

EU: So you said that you went to a two year college. What were you studying?

CM: Oh, I took Home Economics.

EU: What were your plans? Or what were you hoping to do?

CM: Not much. Just killing time I guess [laughs]. Then I went on to dress designing school and that's what else interested me.

EU: And so you did that in San Francisco?

CM: Until the war started. And with the traveling restriction came on, I went home.

EU: What was the name of the school?

CM: Hasmore School of Fashion.

51:00

EU: So you learned dress design?

CM: Design, how to make patterns, how to sew, different sewings, how to make hats, how to work with the furs, and everything. But I didn't finish because we had to leave.

EU: Do you remember Pearl Harbor? And where were you on that day?

CM: Oh that was on a Sunday and a group of us were at the San Francisco Zoo. And once we heard that, we all went back to our apartments.

CM: We saw, that night, that all the big tanks came through the Japanese town. It was kind of frightening. We all ready had blackouts.

EU: Even before?

CM: Yes.

PM: They brought in the tanks that early?

52:00

CM: That very night they were roaring down the street.

PM: Is that right? December 7th?

CM: Yes. It was scary.

PM: We didn't have tanks in our town.

CM: Well in San Francisco--

PM: [chuckle]

EU: I mean, were you worried, what did you think, were you afraid?

CM: Well, it was scary.

EU: I mean, were there stories about people being taken away or arrested?

CM: Not that. That didn't happen until after. And then, in January, early January, the restriction came, the travelling restriction. So we left and everybody went home.

EU: So you went back to Sacramento?

CM: I went back to Sacramento. That's when people started--men were being picked up.

EU: What about your sister and brother then?

53:00

CM: They all came. My sister was home. My brother naturally came home too.

EU: Came home. Then how long -- when did you go into the camp? The assembly center?

CM: Oh--.early. I don't remember when. We went to Walerga and we weren't there very long.

EU: That was the assembly center.

CM: Uh-huh. Outside of Sacramento. And from there we were transferred to Tule Lake.

EU: And how long was your family in Tule Lake?

CM: My brother left; he didn't stay very long. Denver University took students.

54:00

PM: [Sneeze]

CM: So he was able to register for them fall semester--in '42. So he left right away. And in '43, after the "no-no" thing came up, I stayed with my folks and went to Amache, Colorado and my sister went to Denver because my brother was there, from Tule Lake she went to Denver.

EU: And what did she do in Denver?

CM: She worked. I don't know where she worked--but let's see in January, February of '44, I left for New York City. Because that was the furthest that I could go on the government's expense [laughs].

55:00

EU: When you were camp, were you able to teach? Or what would you do in the camps?

CM: At Tule Lake I taught adult education in sewing and pattern drafting. Then, in Amache, I worked--we were making posters for the Navy, in the, what do you call that?

PM: Silk screen.

CM: Silk screen. They had a silk screen art place and we were making posters for the Navy. It was just something to do.

EU: But what did the posters say?

CM: Well--"it's not a boat unless you can hoist it aboard a ship" or something like that. Just something. Nothing fancy. That's where I worked until I left.

56:00

EU: And so you wanted to get as far away as you could? At government expense?

PM: [laughs] They would pay up to where you wanted to go.

CM: Plus twenty dollars, or something like that.

PM: I don't remember them giving us any money.

CM: My girlfriend in Arkansas had an older sister already in New York City. So we decided that's where we'll go. I met her in Chicago and then the two of us went onto New York City. I think it was Valentine's Day in 1944. Then her sister took me so I could get my social security. I had never worked before for anything, so I had to give social security. Then found a job in a couture dress shop.

57:00

EU: What kind of work did you do there then?

CM: Oh gowns and clothes for, at that time, it was a special order for some of the well known, Firestone lady, and all that kind of stuff.

EU: So even during the war they could afford?

CM: Oh yeah, for them a thousand or even two thousand wasn't anything I guess. Now you don't get anything for a thousand and two, but in those days that was beautiful gowns.

EU: So you were designing them and making patterns?

CM: No, just sewing.

EU: Where did you live in New York City?

CM: With my girlfriend's sister. They had an apartment. So there was one bedroom, the sister, and the roommate was a visiting nurse. And so my girlfriend 58:00and I had to roll out the couch every night. That's where we slept.

EU: What was it like living in New York? I mean, it was during the war, but still, coming to the big city?

CM: Oh it's okay. I mean. We went to church. And in those days, it was safe to be any place. We use to go to the Central Park and they use to have concerts in the summer. We went to places like the Statue of Liberty and all that kind of stuff.

EU: Did you like the city?

CM: Yeah, it was fun. Then after my girlfriend got married, she got married in 59:00November on Thanksgiving Day, and then my folks left for Denver from Amache. Even before I left Amache, they left. They'd never work for anybody, so they started a little restaurant. It was just supposed to be a noodle shop, but then it turned out to be a restaurant. So my folks asked me to come to Denver and help. So I left New York City in December of '44.

EU: What part of Denver was their restaurant?

CM: Larimer Street.

EU: On Larimer Street. Was that also a Japanese area?

CM: Right, Japanese.

PM: Yeah, it was I guess. A lot of Japanese stores there.

60:00

CM: So I helped there until California opened up again. Then my folks went back because they still had their business.

EU: So they still had their hotel in Sacramento?

CM: Oh yeah, they had two hotels. They owned two hotels at that time and they sold one before, oh must be in '44, or about '45 I think. They sold one, the one we use to live in, they sold that. Then they went back, must've been '46, they went to Sacramento. And they bought a nursery. 'Cause a friend was in the 61:00nursery business before the war, so they bought the nursery and my sister went with them. I stayed in Denver and worked at a dress shop. I got tired of that, and I went back to Sacramento, stayed for half a year.

EU: Okay. So how did you meet Perry? Where did you meet Perry?

CM: In Amache. He came in January '44 for his sister's wedding. And that's where I met him.

EU: So that's where you were still in the camp. How did you meet then? Who 62:00introduced you?

PM: I guess that was--

CM: Kumagai?

PM: Yeah.

CM: He was a family friend who invited the young--

PM: My brother was with one of the Kumagais--

CM: Butch, he was with Butch. So Mrs. Kumagai invited all of us for dinner or something.

PM: I don't remember.

CM: And my folks were gone already and another family friend, a father, said that I wasn't to stay in the apartment, in the camp, by myself. So the oldest daughter, a very close family friend, she stayed with me until I left. But we decided that they were the nosiest brothers that we ever met.

PM: I've heard this before [they all laugh].

EU: So you didn't have much privacy there, in the camp?

63:00

PM: No, each family had a room that was a little bigger than this one. And that was it.

CM: I don't even know if it was this big.

PM: Maybe a little bit bigger, maybe. No much.

EU: So you two met in Amache, but then you went back to New York?

CM: No, I stayed in Denver and went back to Sacramento every so often.

EU: And you were going to school in Chicago, at Northwestern.

PM: Uh-huh. And I'd come back to Denver because my family was there.

EU: So did you meet up now and then?

PM: Yeah, and we got married in Denver.

64:00

EU: And when did you get married?

CM: '49. June of '49.

EU: June of '49. So at this time, where did you work in Denver?

CM: I worked in the dress shop and then I worked in alterations in Daniels and Fisher.

EU: That was a big department store in Denver.

CM: Yeah, at that time.

PM: It was the biggest store there.

CM: Just about. In those days, it was just off of Lawrence.

EU: On 16th street? I think it's still there too.

CM: The Power is still there.

PM: You can see it.

EU: Yeah. I still remember when they were still May, D and F, they called it.

65:00

CM: That was before.

PM: They bought out.

CM: Yeah, Daniels and Fisher.

EU: Yeah, that was before D and F, and I never knew what D and F meant. And it was later that--Daniels and Fisher. Yeah. So--

CM: And I worked there. After we got married, we went to Chicago, but we couldn't find a place to live because it says for rent, but after you go it, it's been rented. And they wouldn't rent it to us.

PM: Yeah, this was after, in '49.

EU: After '49. Yeah.

CM: Disgusting.

PM: Yeah. That's just the kind of stuff that really gets you, you know.

EU: Did that happen more than once?

PM: Oh yeah.

CM: We had a hard time finding a place. Someone he knew was moving out, so we 66:00got a room and a kitchen. Not much of a place.

PM: Yeah, pretty much.

CM: It was in June, July we went. And he was going to school. And I went to work in alterations some place. I was doing any job I could get. And then in February, my father got

sick. He was going to have surgery, so I left for Sacramento. I think in February, in '50.

67:00

PM: Yeah, it had to be '50.

CM: He was in such a bad way, that I just stayed. And he moved back to the dorm.

EU: At Northwestern?

PM: Yeah, I finished up there.

CM: I just stayed in Sacramento 'til after my father died. And then I went to Denver. And he finished so he came to Denver. And then we had a hard time finding an apartment there.

PM: I had a hard time finding a job.

CM: They wouldn't hire him.

EU: I'm sorry?

CM: They wouldn't hire him. CBE Firms wouldn't. He applied for the FBI and they wouldn't answer. He couldn't find a teaching job.

PM: See, this was in '50. And you think that after the war and everything, you 68:00wouldn't find any discrimination. But it's still there. Even today it's there, you know.

EU: We always heard too that Denver welcomed Japanese Americans more.

PM: Yeah, probably more than anyplace probably, you know.

CM: No, Philadelphia.

EU: But still you had troubles finding--

PM: Oh yeah.

EU: Even in Denver

CM: Place to live?

PM: Oh we had trouble even finding a place to live, you know. And job wise, I finally found a job with a firm, you know.

CM: A small firm.

PM: It was a small firm. But I had the feeling that I wanted to teach. I had more trouble there--no everything was the same. You applied for a job and everything was rosy until they found out your background. And then the job was gone.

69:00

CM: And when the thing come out the next month, it's still open. The job's open. But they tell you it's been taken. Until the Dean Sorrel in New Mexico and give him the chance to teach. So that's when we moved to.

PM: Never heard of New Mexico. [laughs]

CM: Moved to Albuquerque in 1951. September of '51.

EU: So how did you make that connection? With -- what was his name Dean--Sorrel?

PM: Yeah, Sorrell. He was the Dean there.

EU: And you had applied there?

PM: Oh yeah. I had applied -- every time I saw an opening-- I applied. You know?

CM: Everyplace, anyplace.

PM: Even the Church schools, you think would not discriminate, but they do. You know. We found that out, you know.

70:00

EU: Even by that time, in 1950, you had your Masters in business.

PM: I had all the credentials, you know. So in '51 I got this job. We went down in '51.

CM: September for Fall Semester.

EU: All right, let's take a break. This will be the end of part two.

EU: Okay, this is part three. Chiyo, while you have your book out, why don't we get some of

the dates down?

CM: Okay.

EU: Well, let's see.

CM: Ichitaro Sato.

EU: That's your father?

CM: My father. He was born on August 10th, 1881 and he died August 28th, 1950. 71:00My mother

is Toki Sato. Her birth date was August 30th, 1897 and she died January 27th, 1964.

EU: Okay.

CM: And my brother was November 11th, 1923 and he died July 27th, 1986.

EU: Okay. What --

CM: My sister is three years older than I. My brother was two years younger.

EU: Okay. You said your sister had graduated from Berkeley.

CM: She majored in Economics.

EU: And then she got married?

CM: Yeah, she got married in 1950.

72:00

EU: Okay and where did she live then?

CM: In Sacramento.

EU: Okay. Is she still there?

CM: Yes, and then my bother graduated -- got his Bachelor's from Denver University in 1944 and then he went to Harvard and I think in '45, I think he was in '45 or '46, he was drafted, so he came back to Denver and joined the service from there.

EU: When he was at Harvard, what did he study?

CM: Law.

EU: Law. And then so he was drafted, too?

73:00

CM: Uh-huh. So he came back to Denver and then from Denver he joined the service. After the basic, he went to Fort Snelling to the language school.

EU: He was very similar to Perry.

PM: Oh, but, I didn't go to language school.

CM: My brother went in as a Lieutenant and from there he -- from language school, the war ended, so he used to go to Japan -- what did he do? He used to go to check something.

PM: I don't remember.

CM: He -- and then after he finished his service, he went back to Harvard and he finished up in 1950.

PM: Was it '50?

CM: Yeah.

EU: And what did he study then?

74:00

CM: Oh, he finished law school.

EU: He finished law school.

CM: And then he went to California. He was married in '46 I think. '45 or '46. And he went to work for the -- wasn't it the Attorney General's Office in California?

PM: Yeah, I think so.

EU: In Sacramento.

PM: Oh, he was working in the Bay area, wasn't he?

CM: I thought it was in the Bay area. And then he got a job a teaching at Boalt Hall, the University of California Law School and that's where he ended up teaching.

EU: Okay, and where was that?

PM: Boalt Hall? The University of California Berkeley Law School and that's where he was until he passed away.

75:00

EU: And then your parents after they came back from the camps in Denver, they had a nursery?

CM: Mhm.

EU: In Sacramento.

CM: Mhm. They had the one hotel and they hired someone to run the place.

EU: And so they stayed there?

CM: They lived at the nursery.

EU: They lived at the nursery. Okay. Could you go over the dates for Perry's family? I'm not sure we got those on the tapes. Do you have the birth date and --

CM: Perry's father is Kanichi Mori and his birthday is February 28th, 1890 and 76:00he passed away May 7th, 1943. Now, mother is Yoshi Mori and her birthday was December 24, 1898 and she passed away February 13th, 1991.

EU: Okay.

CM: Now, the grandparents, I've got that.

EU: Okay.

CM: Perry's grandfather was -- on the mother's side was Bunichi Jumura and he was born in 1868 and he passed away 1931. The grandmother was Suru Ura.

77:00

PM: That's an unusual name.

CM: And her birthday was 1872 and she passed away 1937.

EU: Perry, your mother lived until she -- 1991. Where did she live?

PM: Denver.

EU: In Denver. With your brother?

PM: Oh no, she lived with her sister for a while and then she was staying at this --

CM: Tamai Towers.

PM: Which was kind of a senior resident place.

EU: Was that in downtown Denver?

CM: Yeah.

PM: It's on Lawrence, isn't it?

CM: On Larimer and Lawrence.

PM: Between Lawrence. On 18th street. No, no 21st / 22nd?

78:00

CM: 20th.

PM: 20th?

CM: Maybe where the Pacific Mercantile -- the Japanese grocery store.

PM: The Buddhist church is right there.

EU: That's a big -- I remember that's at Sakura Square?

PM: Yeah, that's where it is. That's where it is.

EU: There's a big square.

CM: That's where she was until about two years before she passed away. She went into a retirement --

PM: An assisted care type place. She lived until -- how old was she? 92?

CM: Yeah.

PM: When she died. There's longevity on my mother's side. My aunt -- her younger sister -- would have lived to be a hundred in a couple of days.

CM: At the end of the month, she would have been one hundred. She died at 99, 79:00but she would have been one hundred in a couple of weeks.

PM: And the one that was living in Japan, we think she lived to over a hundred.

EU: Wow.

PM: But, we're not sure of it.

EU: So, you were married in 1950 --

CM: '49.

PM: '49.

EU: '49. And in?

PM: Denver.

EU: In Denver. And when did you move to Albuquerque?

CM: 1951. September of 1951.

EU: And then Perry you started teaching --

PM: Yeah. Well, I was working in Denver. I had this job with a small CPA firm and I was there about a year, and I told the boss I was going to try it for a 80:00year -- teaching. I came back in a year and he looked at me and said, "You're not coming back are you?" And I said, "No".

EU: No?

PM: Yeah.

EU: So, you like teaching?

PM: Yeah.

EU: And what did you teach?

PM: Accounting. Basically. I taught a little law.

EU: So, you were in the Business Department?

PM: Yeah, in the Business School.

EU: The Business School?

PM: Yeah, mhm.

CM: And at night when it was raining in 1960, he started taking law classes.

PM: Yeah. [Laughter] Part time.

CM: While teaching full time, he was taking law classes. And then he finished in '65, he got his law degree in '65.

EU: Why did you decide to study law?

81:00

PM: Always wanted to. I got the opportunity and I thought well, I'll go to law school and get my own answers. Well, you find that by going to law school, you don't get the answers [laughter].

PM: But, it's a different type of training. It's worth the time you spend there and after I graduated there, well, every now and then, I teach a law class and I taught one class in the Law School and I taught one class in the Business School. But, basically, I was teaching accounting.

EU: So, when you taught in the Law School, what kind of courses did you teach?

PM: Oh, well, I was teaching a business course or something in accounting -- financial statements.

EU: Did you ever practice law?

PM: No.

EU: No?

82:00

PM: I figured to practice law would be the same as practicing accounting. I was just going to stay in teaching. I enjoyed the classroom.

EU: What did you enjoy about it?

PM: Oh, matching wits with the kids. That was fun. You had to be on your toes. I mean you got some good, smart students. When I was a student, I always remembered I used to -- if I could get the prof up a tree, boy, that made the day. I'm sure there were students there trying to do the same with me. So, you had to be on your toes and it's a good class to keep your mentality up.

EU: So, how long did you teach there?

PM: 30 years.

EU: 30 years. Did you also participate -- I mean, in the whole academic -- I 83:00mean with committees and tenure?

PM: Oh yeah, you had committees. Oh yeah, you worked for tenure and as they say if you want to become a full professor -- tenured -- then you put your time in and if you do your job right the you'll get there. So, by the time that came, I got my tenure -- I got my full professor, you know? I got everything up as far as I was going to go.

EU: So, you like the academic setting?

PM: Oh, I like the teaching. I didn't care for the little stuff that went along with the committees, and this and that but it was fun. And you found similar professors you know taught like you did and you got along well with them and you 84:00had some you didn't get along well which is true in any place, you know.

EU: Well, what -- was there a Japanese American community in Albuquerque?

PM: Not a community. There was --

CM: A club.

PM: A JCL club was there.

CM: A Japanese American Citizens League which is national.

EU: So, you both joined JACL.

CM: Yeah.

PM: Yeah, we were members and we participated in the operations of it, but --

CM: But, that was the only thing that they had for the Japanese community.

EU: What kinds of events did they have for you? What kinds of events did they 85:00have for you?

CM: Oh well, they had meetings every month -- was it month or every other month?

PM: I don't remember. They had meetings.

CM: Luncheons. Luncheon meetings.

PM: They had a --

CM: Like a festival once a year.

PM: Not as big as the one they have here. I was surprised by how big it was here.

EU: The Asian celebration?

PM: Yeah.

CM: But, over there, it's just a Japanese American Omatsuri. You dressed up also.

PM: But, they had the same kinds of things, the dancing and the drums and --

EU: Did they have Japanese stores you could - Japanese grocery stores?

CM: They had Japanese grocery stores. Two of them before -- oh, until what? About 10 no more than that-- 15 years ago?

86:00

PM: Yeah, 15.

CM: All the old folks all closed up. And now they have all the Vietnamese stores.

PM: Or Korean stores basically.

CM: Yeah, Korean, Chinese or whatever.

PM: They had Japanese restaurants there the same as it is here. The thing is today, most of the Japanese restaurants are Koreans.

EU: What part of Albuquerque did you live in?

CM: Well, I would say the -- not the old Albuquerque but not the new either because there was only two high schools at the time that we moved. Albuquerque High and Highland and we lived south of -- a couple blocks south of Highland High School and a few blocks east of us beyond there was just open mesa -- 87:00nothing and not it's filled to the foothills, so it's grown quite a bit. Not the same place as when we first moved there, I thought that was the most backward city I had ever lived in--'cause they had outhouses in town and midwife signs out and I had never seen those things before.

PM: Of course, that's your typical old town, you know? New Mexico was settled about the same as California and you know they -- California, the padres came up from Mexico and they did the same thing in New Mexico, they came up the Rio Grande River. They had the same kind of names, same Spanish, Indians.

88:00

EU: Did you like living in such a dry --

PM: Oh yeah, we like that.

EU: Oh, you like that? That take a while to get use to that?

CM: Oh, in the beginning, what got to me was we lived in the faculty apartments when we first moved there. When the wind blows under the door and on the window sill would be dust and I mean the sand would blow in.

PM: Well, that was you know, not much was settled there and now it's pretty well enclosed now, so you don't see that.

CM: Well, in the beginning, that was something that I'd never come across.

PM: In fact, going down there between Santa Fe and Albuquerque on the highway 89:00you have Indians with their big lean-tos on the highway you know selling their potteries and Chiyo saw that and went "oh my god" you know. But, they don't have that anymore -- on the roads anymore.

CM: Well, I was just saying, growing up in the city, you don't run into a lot of those things.

EU: Yeah.

PM: Chiyo always says she grew up in a city.

EU: She grew up in a city. Yeah.

CM: Well --

PM: In fact if she ever made something, you know, the old customs or things, her answer used to be "oh yeah, stores" [laughter]

PM: The kids are doing the same things that we were doing when we were kids and going right back and making mochi and things.

EU: Oh mochi and things.

CM: Oh yeah. We had stores. Order it and pick it up.

90:00

PM: We went to Albuquerque and that was the first time she ever made mochi.

EU: Who did you make mochi with? Did you have your own --

PM: Oh, yeah, they had our own everything. Yeah, the usu.

CM: The people who had been there longer, they took us in like nothing flat and they made us into a family. Even after the kids left, we always, we were invited to the family affairs.

EU: What was their name?

CM: The Yonemoto's and they were really good to us.

PM: Yeah, they were.

CM: From the old folks in, from the beginning, they were very kind. They took us in.

EU: And tell you how to make mochi.

PM: Oh, I mean, I had done it before, but she had never done it before. Now, we have the machines, you know? Things have changed.

91:00

EU: Did you -- were you close friends with other Japanese American families there?

PM: Yeah. And there were not a lot, but there were many war brides -- oh, you know the -- remember the GIs? We got to know them pretty well.

CM: Because most of the Nisei girls were working. They were working and [sneeze] these girls were not working. They took me in. I couldn't understand everything they were saying, but that's all right. They were very good to me.

PM: We had the Sandia base there, which part of an atomic, Livermore? Then Los Alamos outside of Sante Fe and then Sandia where they, the corporation, was in 92:00Albuquerque which did parts you know. They hired a lot of oriental people out there. In fact, there are a lot of Chinese out there now. We never met a lot of them, a lot of professional people, doctors and things that we never did meet. They would never associate with the clubs or anything so we never did have a chance to meet them. I met many at the University. I was the first one hired there, Japanese, at the University.

EU: The University of New Mexico?

PM: Since then, you know they've hired a lot, which makes it a lot easier. You know, someone breaks in and makes it a little easier.

CM: Even after the alteration at DNF, I was the first one they hired. And my boss there at the department told everybody "You better be good to her." And 93:00after that the others

were hired.

EU: Was it difficult for you being the first Japanese American at the University?

PM: Well I was worried. At the beginning, you don't know what is going to happen, you know? And every time I met someone, they said, "Why, we've heard about you." I mean the Dean talked to almost everyone.

CM: And the school was small.

PM: And he talked to most of the faculty to see what their reaction was going to be. They knew I was coming, you know, which made it easier. And even in the classroom, the first time you meet them, you're scared what's going to happen. Of course after a couple of meetings, then you don't worry anymore. But the first couple, you wonder, oh I wonder what's going to happen, you know?

CM: That was a good atmosphere. They were all very kind.

94:00

PM: The faculty was very nice to me.

CM: The school was a small enough where they had faculty picnics. And then they had a ball where the governor came.

PM: The Regent's Ball. One of those command performance things. You show up [laughter]. It's a lot bigger now.

PM: You know the same is here. They say that Eugene is a pretty big place, but it's pretty small.

EU: Sometimes it seems like it's a small town.

PM: It does. I look at it and think, it is a small town.

EU: And Albuquerque, the town's just spread out so much.

PM: It's spread out and it's big now and we have these other little towns around it. We're a lot bigger than Eugene now, you know.

95:00

EU: Did you go to Sante Fe or Taos much?

PM: No, you know we go through it-- never spent much time up there. Above Taos, we use to go fishing.

CM: In our younger days, we use to go more.

PM: Then Sante Fe got to be a rich man's town. The artists came in.

CM: Yeah, actors and actresses.

PM: Yeah they started buying up the land there, and it really started going up.

EU: Chiyo, did you work then, in Albuquerque?

CM: No, we moved there in September and our first child was born in November and I never worked.

EU: So what's his name? Your first?

CM: John.

96:00

PM: And Mary Jane, well she was born, what?

CM: '54.

EU: And where's John now?

CM: He lives in Clarksville, Arkansas.

EU: And Mary's here in Eugene--and what did they study then? When they went to school.

CM: John got his Bachelor's out of University of New Mexico and he got his Masters in Fine Arts out of Southern Illinois University in--

PM: Carbondale.

CM: Then Mary Jane got her Bachelors at the University of Colorado and got her Masters at the University of Oregon and then a law degree from the University of Oregon.

97:00

EU: And when did you retire?

PM: '82.

EU: '82. And when did you move to Eugene?

PM: Last year.

CM: Last year. So 2007--May of 2007.

EU: So you were retired in Albuquerque for what--25 years? Did you do traveling? What did you do?

PM: Oh yeah, we did traveling quite a bit while we were still physically able, you know.

CM: Mary Jane came to Oregon in 1975, and then after he retired, we use to come every year, once a year. And then we would go to Sacramento and the Bay Area once a year because I had family there. And then we would go up to Denver two or 98:00three times a year. In between, we use to take trips with a group in Denver, golfing with a group that he played with.

EU: Did you play golf?

CM: No.

PM: That was a big group.

CM: But I went along.

EU: Where did you go on these golfing trips?

CM: Well, we went to Hawaii, what, about three or four times?

PM: Yeah.

CM: We went to New Zealand, Australia; we went to Ireland, Scotland, and England. We use to go to South Carolina, you know, Myrtle Beach. We went about three times, four times.

EU: So these travels overseas were always around golf?

CM: Uh-huh.

PM: Yeah, they'd play golf and I could do, but there was enough time that you 99:00did whatever you wanted to do. And Chiyo would go along and go visiting or sightseeing.

CM: Well, overseas trip, we use to pay extra and have the man who had the travel agency go with us. Then he'd take care of all the gratuities and all the restaurants.

PM: He took care of everything.

CM: Everything. He'd line up all the places to eat, he'd been there before, so.

PM: Yeah, made it really easy.

CM: Then he'd take care of all the luggage and it was very enjoyable.

EU: so you'd like the traveling overseas?

PM: Yeah, that was fun.

100:00

CM: Then there were two couples in Denver that we use to travel with and we use to go to Myrtle Beach, we went about three times, to Myrtle beach for two weeks at a time, and then we use to go mushroom hunting up in the mountains of Colorado and Wyoming. And we would go fishing with them.

PM: I went out in Colorado.

CM: Well, we'd go fishing in Colorado.

PM: See today they're scared to go across the river down there. Down Morrison, through there.

CM: Oh you mean--

PM: You know the drug gangs have moved in and killing everybody all the time, you know. They claim they're losing money down there.

CM: We've done enough traveling.

PM: We're at the place now where we can't travel anymore [laughs].

101:00

EU: Chiyo, do you keep up with sewing or knitting?

CM: No, I haven't since I've moved here. I was knitting and crocheting at home, I mean in Albuquerque, but I haven't done too much sewing in the last few years. It's not that easy. You know, you have to an ironing board up and press while you sew and press, just couldn't do it anymore..

CM: But I saved enough yarn, so we'd better have a garage sale or something.

EU: So do you do knitting here with any of the--?

CM: I haven't started yet.

PM: She should.

CM: I should, but I don't feel up to it.

102:00

PM: Yeah. This makes you really lazy, living in a place like this.

CM: At home, I was like a hermit. Rarely went out. When I'm at home, I'd watch TV and crochet and I knew where everything was and that filled up my time. But here I have to be dressing up to go to the dining room and then I join exercise class and a craft class, and I don't know. I have enough to do.

EU: So it keeps you busy.

PM: They try to. They plan all kinds of things.

CM: They have entertainment and social hour and so forth. I just don't feel up to crocheting.

103:00

PM: It seems like they do a lot of reading, don't they? listening to these people.

CM: I do read a lot of books, well I was reading a lot of books at home too.

EU: In your travels, did either of you go back to Japan?

PM: No.

EU: Never?

CM: I went when I was a baby, I understand. I've seen pictures. But that's it. I've never been.

PM: I spent a year there--but that was-- Uncle gave me a ride.

CM: I would've liked to, but I've been like this since...

PM: '80s.

CM: No--before that. I was having problems from late 60s.

104:00

EU: You mean with walking?

CM: Having pains in my--'71, '72 I guess. And surgery on my legs and so forth. Just couldn't do that kind of --well it took a wheelchair to England and everyplace. But I don't think I could manage Japan with a wheelchair.

PM: Too many stairs and things there.

EU: Have there ever been reunions? Tule Lake Reunions or?

PM: Yeah, we use to go to those.

CM: Well, we missed one or two.

PM: That all we missed?

CM: Uh-huh.

PM: I thought we missed the early ones.

105:00

CM: That's why we missed one or two.

PM: That's all, huh?

CM: I think.

EU: And those were annual? Every year?

PM: Yeah, they had them annually for a while there, and then they just quit. It got to be too much work.

CM: Was it annual or every other year?

PM: I thought it was annual.

CM: But there were enough friends left that it was fun to go to. Because we would go over people you don't see ordinarily. Friends from Sacramento, Sacramento people. But for him it wasn't too much fun because --

PM: I didn't have that many friends there.

CM: Because Watsonville people didn't go to Tule Lake.

PM: They went to Poston.

EU: Poston in Arizona. But you didn't go to Poston?

106:00

PM: No, we went to Tule.

EU: It was up to the government to decided, based on--

PM: Well, my dad had TB earlier and they took all the TB people and put them all into Tule Lake. I guess the climate and things were better there for them, I don't know--My auntie Florence had TB.

CM: That's right.

PM: That's why.

CM: Oh, I see.

EU: Were you active in the redress movement? That was in the 80s?

PM: No.

CM: We got the money when we were not active. We were never active in the JC. We 107:00were just members. Because that was the only social thing that got the people together.

PM: It's like that Japanese group that has the movies.

EU: The JAA here in Eugene.

PM: They have a movie on Friday afternoons, which is very convenient for us [laughs].

EU: And they show--

PM: The old Samurai pictures and they have a Samurai picture and then they have a modern one, you know. So we've seen what--Two ? Three?

CM: Three.

EU: Are there other questions? Things you want to add that I didn't ask?

108:00

PM: None that I can think of.

CM: I can't think of anything. We just retired and we got old so we had to move.

PM: That's the only reason we came here--

CM: just to be closer to Mary Jane

PM: We had the choice of either coming here or going to Arkansas and Arkansas wasn't much of a choice really [laughter].

CM: Well, the medical facility wasn't adequate for people like us.

PM: And as you retire, you know, medical facilities are one of the first things you look at.

EU: Okay so, thank you very much.

PM: Well thank you, if we could be of any more help.