Oregon State University Libraries and Press

Delmer Goode Oral History Interview, July 12, 1979

Oregon State University

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JL: I'd like to hear today about how you met you wife and when you got married and your family, your son, when he was born.

DG: Yes, well, we were married in our mid-thirties both of us. Mrs. Goode was past thirty and I was 37 and we it happened that we graduated in the same year I at the University of Minnesota in 1916 and she at Oregon State here in 1916. But, it was only after World War I when I came out here to accept tentatively and later permanently this editorial job. I came in uniform because I had only one suit of clothes. I'd bought a suit but I didn't have much of a wardrobe 1:00and it was winter. I came out here through Canada the first of March and there was snow. There was snow all over Minnesota when I left there and then there was snow, of course, in Canada and it was cold here and so I wore my uniform on the train and out here for the first week or so. So, she caught her first sight of me when I was in uniform but we didn't meet, we ate at a boarding house that was operated by The School of Home Economics as a kind of a project and I believe we met there but we sat at different tables and so on and we didn't get acquainted there but it happened that later we were at other boarding houses. We were at one right on Park Terrace there where this first boarding house had been and both houses that these boarding houses were in are gone now. When the 2:00Health Service was built, they acquired and took out those houses to provide parking. But we got acquainted really acquainted at Mrs. Beal's boarding house which was right near the campus there and on the land that is parking for health service now. We got acquainted well enough so that we were at some of the same parties and, I think, I'm not sure whether it was there or not. But anyway later we were both of us at the Heckart boarding house which was down on Monroe Street.

JL: What was your wife's maiden name?

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DG: Whipple. Whipple. Gladys Louise Whipple. Her father was Charles Whipple. And he came from Boston. His nickname was "Boston!' He came really from New Hampshire but he'd come from New England and out in Nevada where he had been in the mining enterprises they called him "Boston". And the name Whipple is a historic name. There is up north of Boston at Ipswich, Mass, a house called the Whipple House and we have a picture of it just around the corner here. I'll show it too you later. The Whipple House. We went to see it once when we were in Boston. Well, he was a, you asked about us, but he was 4:00connected with mining in some way. He got a fortune and lost it like many did. He was part of the wreckage of mining. But he finally went into railroading and he became a locomotive engineer and came to Portland and was an engineer on a rail line. It must have been the Union Pacific from Portland to, oh somewhere up there one of the places. I forget the name of it now. I've been in it. It's the place where you stop and he ran as an engineer many years. Well, he 5:00met his wife in Portland and she was a Whipple or no he was a Whipple. Charles Whipple. She was a Smith. I don't know whether she's related to this lady that picked me up or not. (Chuckle) She was a Smith. Ellen Smith was her name and she was a member of a pioneer family that had come across the plains to Portland. Well, my wife was born to them. This second child. They had a daughter older and then she was born and she was named Gladys Louise. So she was Gladys Whipple when I met her.

JL: When was she born?

DG: What?

JL: When was she born?

DG: Well, I guess, she admits her age now. She's in the 80's too. She was born in 1892 and I was born in 1889 and so I was almost four years older than she 6:00from May to December of the 4th year.

JL: Well, what was she doing in Corvallis?

DG: Well, she was graduated here in Home Economics in clothing and textiles. Household art it was called then and after she was graduated she got quite a fancy job at a college back in Illinois. Lincoln College. It's still in existence. But, she was called back there to be home economics teacher.

JL: Did she know Miss Snell here?

DG: Well...

JL: Dr. Snell?

DG: Well, she must have. I don't know whether she ever had any work with her. I doubt it if she did. But, I remember Margaret Snell, I don't know that I ever met her personally but I remember seeing her when she was well and 7:00able. I remember seeing her standing as if she were waiting for a bus on Monroe Street out there near the apartment houses that she owned. She built there some that the Catholic Center there and other buildings were built originally by Margaret Snell although some of them have been added I think by other people. But, she planned and operated the main house there as an apartment house while she lived. Well, we were after she had quite an adventure at Lincoln College but World War I intervened and all the men of the college enlisted and departed and the college began to go to pieces and at the same time she became ill and she had to have they thought she'd have to have 8:00surgery and so she resigned and her mother came out from Portland. Went out to Illinois to take her back home. It turned out she didn't have the surgery but she had to take quite a while to recuperate. But, before she was fully recuperated the dean of home economics here decided she had a job and she decided she wanted Gladys for that job and she persuaded her to come and take it. It was a job of supervising on behalf of The School of Home Economics. To be a supervisor of the home economics offerings down at the Corvallis High School. So, although she was on the faculty at the college she was also on the faculty down at the high school.

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JL: Who was the dean?

DG: Well, what?

JL: Who was the dean?

DG: Dean Milam who was later Clark. The Milam Hall in Milam Auditorium. Our name for her. She was dean for a long time. Well, Mrs. Gladys Whipple as she was called, served out that and then her illness recurred. She had to give that up and she went back to Portland and after a time they got a substitute but the substitute who took over the job was not very good so there was another vacancy and so they dragged her back to, it may have been another position. Anyway, back she came here and she was on the faculty most of the time then until we were married. That was through the early 20's on into the latter '20's.

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JL: So what year were you married then?

DG: What?

JL: What year were you married?

DG: 1926. September 18, 1926. You'll find that in the Who's Who accounts. And you'll find her name there too.

JL: And you have one son is that correct?

DG: Yes. Yes. His name is Kirby Whipple. His name Kirby comes from my mother's maiden name and, of course, Whipple comes from his mother's maiden name?

JL: When was he born?

DG: 1932.

JL: Ohh.

DG: Well, the way we came to meet was, especially at the Heckart boarding house, because there were two tables at the Heckart boarding house. One of them was presided over by Mr. Heckart the husband, who was a contractor. But his wife ran the boarding house but he used to preside at one of the tables. At the 11:00other table there was no one presiding. But, we were put at his table. That was rather a favorite table. But, they had looked us over and decided we would be desirable ones at this favorite table. The colonel's table and something like the captain's table on a ship and we ended up sitting across from each other although we didn't at first. But, later we were one of us on each side of the colonel. He was called colonel because his initials were C.L. He wasn't a colonel but C.L. stood for colonel and he was called Colonel Heckart. Well, we got quite well acquainted there, of course, because each of us overheard the other in conversations and various ways and then we had some dates 12:00of one sort or another. It was there where we finally, not entirely though because the last year before we were married she had gone into had taken a house with another faculty member and her mother, Mrs. Whipple, Mrs. Charles Whipple who was then a widow. Her father had died while she, Gladys, was in college. But, they were in a house separate and I used to call there and take her to dances and things of that sort.

JL: Where did you take her to dances?

DG: Mostly what is now what was called The Woman's Club down on 7th Street. There is a nice dance floor there and a stage. I used to take her to the Monad Club which was a faculty club for dancing. We served on a committee together. 13:00It was a little bit awkward because most of the members of The Monad Club were married couples. But, there were a few bachelors or stags like me and some of them would have a pretty much the same date but usually a different date. I never took her always but I took some other girl. But, I took her mostly and we ended up becoming engaged and married. We were married in Portland at her sister's home and like people say, lived happily ever after.

JL: Well, you certainly have. How many years does that make now?

DG: It was in 1926 so it this September it will be our 53rd.

JL: That's remarkable.

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DG: We celebrated a family celebration of our 50th anniversary a few years ago, of course.

JL: That's great.

DG: Very nice.

JL: I wanted to go back to the 1930's again when you were writing your thesis for your master's. I want you to tell me about your thesis a little bit more.

DG: Well, it kind of started when I was sent, as I told you, down to Oregon City to copy the minutes of the State Board of Higher Curriculum. And then in the years following this mid 20's, as I've told you, we had some fierce struggles. Battles with The University of Oregon on curricula matters and I was involved in 15:00those very closely because as an editor I got a large part of the work of putting the briefs which were our arguments that we put before The State Board of Higher Curriculum in defense of what we were asking or in rebuttal of charges often absurd or false charges made by The University of Oregon. We had a fierce time and I was right in the middle of that and that was the time that I became actively interested in curricula because The State Board of Higher Curricula was called what it was curricula I became acquainted with the word curriculum and interested in the concepts that are involved in curriculum. And 16:00then, of course, the struggles that we had with The University of Oregon had to do with the scope and proper functions of a land grant institution like Oregon State College and I became interested in the land grant. If I had known of these two books at the time it would have helped a great deal. A great deal. But, I didn't know them.

JL: Those are the two books that you lent me?

DG: Yes. The...

JL: The Life of Jonathan Baldwin Turner...

DG: Yes. Jonathan...

JL: . . . And the Origin of the Land Grant Act of 1862.

DG: Yes. Jonathan what's his name?

JL: Baldwin Turner.

DG: Turner. He was the brain that had the conception of the land grant 17:00institutions. He hasn't received proper credit but you read that book written by his daughter and you will see that his conception is what was ultimately embodied in the land grant institutions although it got distorted. But, it was a noble one. It was for universities that would do for industrial people and business people and so on. For people other than lawyers and doctors and clergymen and maybe a few other polite professions that the old colleges prepared for, prepared people for. Harvard had a medical school although it was still Harvard College but there were medical men trained there and the same 18:00at Yale and so on. But, he realized, Jonathan Turner, that people in engineering and agriculture and in mining and forestry and so on in the age that was coming, the age that was in existence really, but particularly coming needed to be educated at a level with these doctors and lawyers and so forth. And so he had in mind establishing these and he called them universities. But, I've told you that story. Well, I became I didn't know anything about Jonathan Turner and this by the president of the University of Iowa, is it, which gives some 19:00basic facts. Very important facts. So those are two very important books. I didn't know about them at that time. But, I was very interested in curricula and I told you about having been asked to talk to the administrative council on the campus here on the curriculum development or the development of the curriculum of Oregon State College and my audience would be all deans and I took it very soberly and I, as I told you, I went and got a great armfull of books at the library because I thought "if I'm going to talk to them I've got to know." Teachers ought to know more than he or she teaches or expects the his pupils to learn. He should know a lot more. Otherwise he's not a well prepared teacher. 20:00And that's the idea of the Normal School, to prepare people who would be teaching and who already knew their basic subjects that they would be teaching. But, they ought to know them better than they could ever expect the kids to know them. So, the work that I took at Moorhead included reviews of the basic subjects like arithmetic and grammar and so on.

Well, I felt I needed to know more than these deans did if I was going to talk to them. If I tell them what they already knew, well why should I talk to them? So I read a lot of books and became familiar with a lot of books and I made up a kind of a forecast of what the college curriculum probably would become or it certainly should become. I think I have a copy of that somewhere. 21:00Practically all of it has Been developed but all that and then this other matter in connection with my editorial duties and the division of information-for the state system of higher education where I found I was consulted even after I was no longer editing the unified catalog. In fact, the only unified catalog there ever was was the one I edited. They went back to separate catalogs after that. But, I used to be consulted in various ways, so, I began to feel that I needed to know the curriculum in general better than any one of these deans did. They knew their own curriculum but they didn't know as 22:00much besides as they could well know. So, and similarly that I decided that I was being taken seriously as a curriculum consultant and although I didn't think of myself as a curriculum consultant that's what I really was before I ever thought of it and that's how I came to go down to Stanford. Well, when I put in these five weeks at Stanford and I did eight credits which was a little more than a half of a term I decided that I ought to get some advanced degrees out of this and although I was seeking a doctor's degree at Stanford I thought I better take a master's degree and it would I'd had privileges to go down to 23:00Stanford and to study at The University of Oregon but I decided that the thing that would be best for me, most convenient, would be to work for master's degree at Oregon State because that's were my basis of interest had started so I selected the state board of higher curricula and I evaluated it in my thesis by comparing it with the recommendations of the Federal Survey Committee of Oregon Higher Education which did something that the State Board of Higher Curricula had done. The State Board of Higher Curricula had been charged, when it was established by the legislature to determine what courses shall not be duplicated 24:00in Oregon higher education. It was a kind of a negative assignment but that was their job and I'd worked on that and so forth.

But, here a Federal Commission, not a state one, a Federal Commission appointed by The United States Office of Education and including a man from one of the Washington bureaus, Arthur J. Kline and a man from The University of Buffalo, I believe, he was president. If not he was a major dean there and two or three others. It was a distinguished independent commission that came and spent some time. They brought assistants here and used stenographers and clerks and so forth to draw up their report and they drew up an elaborate report which 25:00is two volumes in the library over here. The Survey of Oregon Higher Education. This man, Kline, had been the one who had headed the survey of the land grant institutions just before that. Well, they made a set of recommendations and it was based on, I meant to outline this before I'm repeating some. It's part of the continuity however. There was a great vogue at that time for general education. It was a kind of a resurgence of liberal 26:00education. The ideal of liberal education is an education that will prepare you to live a rich, rewarding and effective life. Not a particular occupation, just your life. Like Dr. Kerr used to say, "The man or the woman is more important than the profession." He used to say that, but, well, I won't go into that. But, that's what a liberal education was but it had become sort of associated with the elite and there was a movement of general education that was coming down to earth a little better 'Generally education for people regardless of profession. I always preferred liberal education. I still do but I was one of the followers of the general education movement and it was 27:00very wide spread and there was a, actually in the northwest here, a conference on general education that included many colleges and many universities and had many meetings. It was called a conference on the arts and sciences though. But, it was concerned with general education. And at that time The University of Chicago had in a conspicuous way reorganized itself concentrating all general education in the freshman and sophomore years and then requiring the selection of a major which then would be pursued in a very concentrated way in the junior and senior and graduate years.

Well, with that in mind this Survey Commission that recommended for Oregon 28:00adopted an idea we know although this has never been but in print but we know that they in one of their meetings the commission agreed that the best thing that could be done would be to put a single university here in Corvallis and the reason they chose Corvallis was because the Corvallis campus had more buildings. It was better developed than any other campus. The University of Oregon had been putting it's money in professors and they bragged a good deal about they had been putting their money in brains rather than buildings. But, when it came to this commission they thought here's a beginning of a campus and there could be a University of the State of Oregon located here and then rejuggle the others and so on. That's what they had in mind but they knew it wouldn't work. 29:00John McPhearson pretended it would and tried to make it work but it didn't pass. But, that was the idea. But, they worked out a kind of a make shift compromise and that was, a single lower division program like The University of Chicago one, at least in general conception, which would be concerned with general education preparing the person to live an effective and rewarding life without any kind of majoring. Well, it happened that on this campus we had a lot of courses like engineering and agriculture and home economics and forestry that you started some of and business you started some of your specialization 30:00right in the freshman year. You didn't wait until the junior year so that the program that they proposed was particularly unsuited to our program here. We believed in starting the major early so that you get it along with your general education. We didn't believe in, I don't think we believed in the general education as strongly as we ought to, but we believed in it and we believed that you'd get a better general education if your get it along with your special education. Strangley, well, anyway that's what they recommended.They recommended a lower division that would he the same on all the campuses and far as University of Oregon and Oregon State were concerned it 31:00would be under one dean. Just as the special fields...

DG: Are you ready?

JL: Right.

DG: All right. Well, it was natural then that if I were to write a master's thesis that I would write it on some phase of the State Board of Higher Curricula and my thesis is the Oregon State Board of Higher Curricula as an agency for curricular curriculum control or curricular, I forget which, well, I used as a measuring stick the recommendation of the survey commission which was what I've just outlined. They assigned schools or specialties to different 32:00schools and they decided that at The University of Oregon at Eugene should be schools of literature and arts and social science and at Corvallis biological and physical sciences and that at Eugene there should be probably a School of Arts and Letters and a School of social science. That's what they ultimately had anyway and at Corvallis a great School or science. We could have had two schools. A School of Biological Science and of Physical Science but chose to have one and the survey had said a great School of Science should be established at Corvallis. Well, they also allocated engineering here and business at The 33:00University of Oregon. Forestry here and so forth. Home Economics here but law at The University of Oregon and medicine in Portland they didn't mention it as part of The University of Oregon which it was and is in a kind of a loose sense.

Anyway, I compared the Board of Higher Curricula allocations with The Survey Commission Allocations which the board finally adopted. They took a whole year trying to find out something else. They were reluctant to adopt this survey report but they decided they'd see what else could they do and they found there was as much objection as there was support for anything else. So, they ended 34:00up by adopting the survey and then I used that as my check and I found that, to a very large extent, a surprising extent, in fact, The State Board of Higher Curricula had done a good job. It had the question of business or commerce which had been kind of mixed up. The Board of Higher Curricula had granted to (we had a School of Commerce here but The University of Oregon had developed a School of Business too and in order to kind of placate things The Board of Higher Curricula had said they were allocating to The University of Oregon Higher Commerce) and that resulted in all kinds of equivocation and all 35:00ambiguity about Commerce. But, it ended up The University of Oregon got commerce although we ultimately got our school in a new version back, but it checked out very well. Remarkably! It meant The State Board of Higher Curricula had done a good job. That's the essence of my thesis.

JL: How long did you take to write it?

DG: How long? It didn't take so very long because the research that I might have had to do had been done by The Board of Higher Curricula on the one hand and The Survey Commission plus The State Board of Higher Education on the other, I used as my data something that it would have taken years to work out but which had been done. The Board of Higher Curricula had specified that the catalogs of 36:00both The University of Oregon and Oregon State should contain statements of the offerings. This was to head off misunderstanding. There was some misrepresentation on the part of institutions about what they could get or couldn't get. Mostly. Well, either. And it took two pages in the catalog, well, so those are the two pages that I used. It was an official statement approved by The State Board of Higher Curricula of the allocations between Oregon State and The University of Oregon and then here was the statement of the rulings or the allocations by The State Board of Higher Education and I put the 37:00two alongside of each other. To have formulated those statements or dug them out would have meant a lot of research but it took quite a bit but it didn't take as much as it could have because I knew I chose it because it was the thing easiest for me and T thought it was about time that it should be done. The Board of Higher Curricula had been abolished, you know, at the time that The Board of Higher Education was established, the old hoard had been abolished. But here some not so long after here comes the new board with a program that is very much like that of the old board and that's what my thesis shows.

JL: Well, you finished up then in the late '30's?

DG: I got my master's degree in 1938 and then during the years '36, '37 and 38:00'38 I was doing work other than this work at Stanford I was doing work on a part time basis during the year either here or at Eugene and attending summer schools. I attended summer schools two different summers at The University of Oregon and, oh, probably at least two summers here too. During all this time I was piling up graduate credits toward a program.

JL: Did you in the late '30's was there still animosity between the two schools?

DG: Oh, yes, but a different kind. The main, oh, spot of issue was this 39:00campaign that The University of Oregon was conducting to get science majors back. That went on for ten years. Along with it they successfully managed in, in one way or another, to get to manoeuver to get several features of the unified program that was supposed to be operating virtually nullified. Conspicuous in that was the fact that they made the post of dean of lower 40:00division which was supposed to be a post to operate on two campuses and Dean Smith who was appointed to that job started spending part of his time down at Eugene until he found that they were putting blocks in the way of everything he tried to do and they ultimately made perfectly clear they just wouldn't have him and they got away with it and they also got away with getting science back too so they didn't lose favor with The State Board of Higher Education to badly but they did one of the things was to have a president. They were one of the ones that insisted that they should have a president. Dr. Kerr was there as 41:00chancellor but they didn't have a president and, of course, that bothered them a good deal.

JL: He must have had a very difficult time being in that location...

DG: Oh, yes he did. He did...

JL: ...the feelings of hostility.

DG: ...have. They did many little things to make him unhappy because there were people there who were there were one or two deans on the university campus that just HATED Dr. Kerr and they did everything....

JL: Not personally but because of his political bent?

DG: Because he was they feared him and all... They wanted to get they didn't want to have him in charge of...

JL: What kinds of things would they do?

DG: Well, a small thing was he took his secretary with him from here. A woman.

JL: Who was that?

DG: A woman. She's dead now but he took her down and she needed a place to live. Her husband and she lived had their own residence here but she had, of 42:00course, she would go home for weekends but she needed a place to live and Dr. Kerr arranged for her to have some kind of accommodations in a woman's dormitory there which, at least at the start, didn't have any use it was summer time. It was t operating, I guess. Anyway they put blocks in the way of that. I don't know how that came out. I don't know whether she had to move or not, but quite an embarrassing situation was stirred up by University of Oregon authorities protesting against her, not a student, being housed in a student dormitory. Well, it was Dr. Kerr needed some place for his secretary to live and I don't know how it came out.

JL: It must have been difficult for Dr. Kerr's family also.

DG: Yes, well, I guess they moved to Eugene and lived in the president's house 43:00there. Yes, but I don't think they (Sardonic laughter) they were received with any glee by Eugene people. I think I could give some other examples but, of course, I didn't know them. They were handled very discreetly. Dr. Kerr was not one to - he shrank from publicity. HUMILIATING publicity. Especially and that was certainly humiliating to think that his secretary would after she was once established in a dormitory they would try to oust her. I don't, as I say, I don't know whether they did or not, but I know that happened.

JL: Who would you say was Dr. Kerr's confidant? Best friend?

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DG: His best friend? Where?

JL: During these years.

DG: On the campus or just in general?

JL: Yes. Who would he feel comfortable in letting down his hair to so to speak.

DG: Well, I don't know, of course. He was on good terms with the deans here. They all respected him and W.A. Jensen, his executive secretary, he brought here from Utah and he got on fine with him and I'm sure depended a great deal on him. But, as far as the state is concerned Dr. Kerr had many friends. He had friends in very high station ALL in both in Salem and in Portland.

JL: I guess I was thinking more who would he go fishing with. Who would he...

45:00

DG: Oh.

JL: ...talk to about his problems.

DG: Oh.

JL: Or did he have anybody? Maybe you don't know?

DG: No, a man I think he did have but I really didn't know them. He was a high up Mason, you know. He was a 33rd degree Mason which is a post that very few get. And he was highly regarded in Masonic circles and I'm sure he could advise with many men in the state who were not only prominent but were Masons and particularly disposed to help him. But, there were so many who came to his 46:00assistance in different ways that I just feel he had a large number of friends in the state. I don't think he ever would have become chancellor if he hadn't had a lot of friends because there were a lot of people, University of Oregon people, who I'm sure did everything they could think of to keep him from being chancellor.

JL: Let's go on to the 40's and World War II. What was the effect on O.S.C.?

DG: Well, it was very different from World War I, Of course, I wasn't here in World War I. In World War I though there was a program called Student's Army Training Corp. S.A.T.C. that made it possible for students who would 47:00probably be called up in the draft but meanwhile could go to college and receive training. As a matter of fact, they were already in a kind of a semi-military position. A barracks was built on the campus. I'm going back to World War I now by way of contrast. A barracks, a crude unfinished barracks that was later remodeled to become a dormitory for a number of years. But...

JL: Where was that?

DG: Oh, that was in the area, oh, about where Weatherford Hall is now. Somewhere in there.

JL: Hmmm.

DG: And it was a barracks for S.A.T.C. who wore uniforms, I believe. I wasn't here, you know, so all that I know indirectly. But, World War II the situation 48:00was very different. There had been the experience of World War I and a number of things happened here. In the first place Camp Adair was established ... north of town up at it's called Adair Village now and at in that camp four division were trained and although they had no immediate connection with Oregon State they, of course, came to Corvallis mostly. They could go to Albany. Some of them did and other places for weekends but most of them came to Corvallis.

JL: Mr. Goode, excuse me, but I had talked to one of the men that was stationed there and he said that many of the men there felt unfriendliness from Corvallis 49:00citizens and felt more comfortable going to Albany and Salem. Do you know anything about that?

DG: They didn't feel that they got friendly treatment here?

JL: Right.

DG: Well, I think it was too much for Corvallis, you know? There wasn't accommodations. The army rules and injunctions were that wives of soldiers shouldn't come here. Shouldn't come to a camp. But, they came. They came and they just flocked and flooded into Corvallis and they were, of course, there was a kind of a market for labor. Many of these wives got jobs during the week waiting on table in restaurants and so forth. But, they had to have places to live and they overcrowded, well, people lived during World War II people 50:00lived in apartments in Corvallis that were not suitable, at all. They had to use their oven of their electric range for heat, in many cases. They didn't have any proper heat and worse than that there were people who provided accommodations, became landlords, for people during the war who never should have been landlords. They didn't have any of the instincts a landlord ought to have an interest in the people that he or she has how a landlord or landlady and some of them were terrible because they didn't know what their own duties were as landlords so there was lots of trouble. Trouble in Corvallis finding housing and weekends it was terrible because the wives of soldiers, Camp 51:00Adair soldiers, who were available to wait on table during the week didn't want to wait on table on Sunday when their husband was on leave here in Corvallis.

So, they weren't available and most of the restaurants didn't open on Sunday. Wagners which later became, well, it was Wagners then, yes, it was Wagners then they managed someway but most of the eating places in Corvallis weren't available so that is one of the reason. Reasons, I'm sure, that Corvallis was not popular. But, it was popular enough so it was overcrowded. Our church was a federated church at the time and it opened up a servicemen's center which provided sleeping quarters in the basement for quite a good many men and snacks 52:00and recreation. It had a pool table and various kinds of recreation for soldiers and showed and then helped them find housing and one thing and another. But, and you've got help. This program got help from the two denominations that were involved. But, it Corvallis was just wasn't able, just wasn't able to meet all of the needs that existed. Well, there was this camp up here. In addition, at Camp Adair there was established a naval hospital up at Camp Adair. It was separate from the army but it was a naval hospital.

JL: Where was that located?

DG: Well, it was right at Camp Adair there. You wouldn't know where it stopped and the other begin but it was under navy auspices.

53:00

JL: How did that happen to be there? DG: Well, I guess, there was a navy program. I'll come to that in a minute. I think there was a navy program on the campus. Well, then south of town where the airport now is there was established an air force. Not a base but a training center and which trained a number of outfits. Marines and marines, I think, mostly for transport service, to transport naval personnel in the Pacific. So here was quite a bunch of marine trainees down south of town. Then on the campus there were a number of programs men who were already enlisted and in, I think, in uniform at least part 54:00of the time in uniform. Practically the whole campus was, as far as men was concerned, was composed of men in training. There was a name for it too. It had, I forget the name now, but it includes several thousand men and they were taking college work but it was going to or be part and at the same time they were receiving a military training and we had commencement at the end of fall term, at the end of winter term and the spring as usual. Special commencements because some of these men would be going and they finished their degree work and got their diplomas.

55:00

Of course, there were women on the campus but not as many and but most of the fraternities were taken over to house these men trainees. Fraternities practically went out of existence. But and all of the houses weren't used by the army, however, but most of them were used as dormitories and, yes, and then there was there were military officers on the campus. What is now Extension Hall was taken over entirely for military administration. It used to have plantings around the first story windows are kind of near the ground of that 56:00building and there were plantings all around. Quite attractive and during the war those were all taken out for military reasons. I guess, their idea was some sniper could come in hide in those bushes and shoot someone through the window. I don't know or go in and out. I don't know what the reason was but and lots of Corvallis houses that didn't have railings like ours out here railings appeared. Hand rails, you know, because they were rented to people. Army officers who were stationed out at Camp Adair but whose families lived here in Corvallis. Some of them lived in Albany too.

JL: What were the railings for?

DG: Railings, well, safety. I presume they figured if some of them drank too much and they would fall slipping going down steps they'd break an arm or something unfit themselves for service. It was mostly protecting officers but 57:00officers were important too.

JL: Was alcohol a problem among these men? Do you remember that?

DG: No. I don't. It was a we had no we didn't have liquor stores at that time. But, there were places in Corvallis where you could buy beer. I don't know whether there were any bars that handle hard liquor. There must have been though. But, Corvallis was pretty inadequate from the liquor standpoint, I think, for considering.

JL: How did these men affect the campus? The administration of the campus?

DG: Well, they fitted in fine. The men in this training program. I wish I 58:00could think of the name of it. They were under the deans for their academic work but, they were, of course, under military for their military training and what they were taking was a blend of the two. And, I think, everything went along fine. Everybody was very co-operative. Dean Lemon who was the registrar took a post during the war. What was his post?

JL: Dean of Administration?

DG: Oh well, he was Dean of Administration. No, I guess, what I'm thinking of was that his wife took a post having to do with the housing or something of the sort. She it was an important post and, I guess, she was very well adapted to 59:00it. I guess, I don't think he had a, of course, in his job as administration he had a lot of coordination to do between the military and the and, of course, President Strand was president.

JL: Now during this time, well, in 1940 Peavy retired and then there was two [unintelligible].

DG: Yes, Dr. er, professor, er, Director Ballard became president but he didn't last very long.

JL: Now why is that?

DG: Well, before a year was out he had a kind of a health breakdown and had to go on leave and then Dr. Gilfillan, who was Dean of Science, was named as acting president.

60:00

JL: Why did Ballard have a mental or health breakdown?

DG: I think I'd rather not have this on tape.

JL: Ohh.

DG: I'd like to tell you. You use your judgment about it. But what I'd tell you is...

JL: [Unintelligible]

DG: ...well, we're talking about World War II. Are we through with it?

JL: Well, I think it all falls in the same period of time.

DG: Yes.

JL: But, when Dr. Ballard resigned why was Gilfillan chosen?

DG: Well, they had to have someone who was right there. He was named acting president.

JL: Now Dr. Ballard was to be the president of O.S.C.?

DG: He was.

JL: He was [unintelligible]...

DG: He was the president.

JL: ... of inter [unintelligible]

DG: He followed, as president; he followed Peavy and was supposed to have had kind of an indefinite tenure as president but because of this health break why 61:00he, I don't know whether he resigned he had a leave anyway, a health leave, and they named Dr. Gilfillan as acting president.

JL: Now why was he chosen?

DG: Well, because he was someone they trusted and felt he was Dean of Science and although it was robbing the School of Science to make him acting president that's what happened.

JL: Was he singled?

DG: Well, he worked at a great disadvantage but they, of course, they well there was some question about whether he would be made permanent president or not. That was a possibility but the decision was to seek a new president and they got Dr. Strand who was who had been President of Montana State and who came here in 62:001942, was it? Yes.

JL: Did Dr. Gilfillan aspire to be the president of the college?

DG: I don't think so. Of course, anyone in a position of would give it some thought. But, I don't know that he candidate for it or anything like that. I don't know about that.

JL: Do you...

DG: I know he did the best job he could while he was acting president and he is a very capable man.

JL: Did he make any major decisions or changes while he was here for a short time?

DG: No. He had the humiliation he who had been Dean of Science went down...

JL: O.K.

DG: And he at Ashland was present when the board by a divided vote voted to 63:00restore science all degree granting privileges in science to University of Oregon, I was there too. I was late. I went down for some reason part of my duties of keeping in touch with things I went down and I arrived late. The decision had already been made but it wasn't final. Three of the board, (I think it was three) who voted against this motion had requested that they have an opportunity to make a statement and I heard their statements. The three who made their statements I'm not sure I can name all three but I can name two. One of them was Mrs. Sackett after whom Sackett Hall here is named and the other 64:00one was the, I guess, he was the president of the board. He lived in Albany. What was his name? I think there was a third. But, anyway there were two. I heard those. I'll think of his name in a minute. They made statements and the general idea was, of course, that the board had established a program and that they were in favor of maintaining it and to start breaking it down would perhaps end up in much greater breaking down. Which of course it has done. 65:00I'm sorry I can't give you the name of that man. He was a lawyer in Albany and had been president of the board. I'm not sure he wasn't president at that time. If you could shut it off a minute maybe I can come to the name...

DG: ...sure. Or.

JL: Who did you think should become president?

DG: Who did I think? I don't think I had anyone to-I wasn't giving it any thought. I wasn't on any committee or anything of that sort. It would be my instinct to work well with anyone chosen as president. And I did. I worked 66:00my best with Ballard and I worked my best with Gilfillan and I worked my best with Strand.

JL: What kind of a man is Dr. Strand?

DG: He is, of course, he's ill now he has Parkinson's disease, and I won't speak in the present tense because his health is in sad shape but he is or was a very able man. His Ph. D was in entomology from The University of Minnesota and he had been for some time President of Montana State College as it was called then. It's now called Montana State University, He is, although a scientist, he 67:00has he had a great a wide range of interests. His I know from the reading he did he was interested in public affairs. He was interested in educational affairs and read lots of things outside of entomology and science. A narrow minded entomologist might know everything about entomology and a few things about science and very little about anything else but he was one who had a wide interest...

JL: How...

DG: ...he was a great reader too.

JL: Why did the State Board of Higher Education choose him? Was it not common in those days...

DG: I think they had decided that they had better get someone from outside that 68:00they could count on, you see. They'd had they had counted on Ballard from inside. You might think that they would go to someone else in the state system here but that had been kind of played out and, I think, that the decision was they'd better get someone. I don't doubt that they considered other people but I wasn't on the inside of things. I don't know who were considered.

JL: Do you think Dean Lemon would have been capable instead of Gilfillan to fill that intermittent part?

DG: I wouldn't like to compare them, I doubt I doubt if Dean if Dr. if Mr, Lemon, he was registrar then, had any such aspirations. After Dr. Strand was 69:00selected and was coming here I think I see evidences that Dean Lemon had he knowing that Dr. Strand would need someone like a Dean of Administration that he aspired to it. He was fully equipped to do it. Mr. Lemon during the transition of the early 30's had had a great deal to do with instituting the new program because he had worked under the board's secretary, the former board secretary, E.E. Lindsey and the later secretary, Charles Byrne. He had worked closely with them in helping get the program started so far as Oregon State 70:00College was concerned and he had got a wide perspective and, of course, as registrar, he had a wide perspective of the institution and he had been on the Administrative Council and he was the one who had who was who had been appointed by the Administrative Council as a sort of chairman to arrange for special talks to be given to the Administrative Council to widen their fund of information. He is the one who invited me to give this report that I did on the future development of curriculum at Oregon State College. So he had a--he had a quite a bit of experience in addition to a lot of just natural ability. He had 71:00graduated in commerce I guess it was. At least he was strong in business management and all. Whether he aspired to be president or not I don't know.

I never had any basis to give me that thought but I'm sure he aspired to be Dean of Administration and I would have personally been I really personally would have been advocating Mr. Lemon to Dr. Strand as a Dean of Administration if I had felt that it would be expedient to do so but Mr. Lemon had openly supported Byrne for president as against Ballard and so when Ballard became president 72:00although I still felt that to take Mr. Jensens place that Mr. Lemon would be the best one he could find I didn't believe that Ballard would accept him because Ballard knew that Lemon had been supporting supporting Byrne and similarity with President Strand I wasn't sure how quickly he would catch on but he caught on pretty well to Mr. Lemon's ability. I'm sure other people in support of Mr. Lemon recommended him to President Strand because fairly early President Strand announced the appointment of Dean Lemon-Mr. Lemon as Dean of Administration.

73:00

JL: Why was there never a Dean of Administration before that time?

DG: Well, there was this position of Executive Secretary which was somewhat like it only it was a humbler job but Dean of Administration had come into the picture on many campuses by 1942 so it was a natural thing to do then.

JL: That was a difficult time to be president during World War II I imagine?

DG: Oh, yes, yes, it was.

JL: Dr. Strand was capable and effective?

DG: Oh, yes. I. have no fault to find with Dr. Strand. I think he was an excellent president and he was fine this I shouldn't put on I shouldn't put on tape. Click it off a minute.

74:00

DG: ... a simple yes or no I have to go back and lay a lot of foundation and so on...

JL: Oh, that's O.K.

DG: Well, it perhaps is sometimes but I'll try to keep it within bounds.

JL: Have you always been "gabby"? (Chuckle)

DG: I don't think so, although I have never been reticent. I'm not like some people, you know, like Mrs. Goode's father who was very very close mouthed. He didn't talk much. My father was a natural talker. He talked and my mother was a good talker but I had a good example of talk but I don-t know I've never thought of myself I do remember this about my speech though, when I went first to the University of Minnesota that was the fall of 1911 so I must have been 22 but I 75:00wasn't very mature in the sense that I hadn't had much experience in a city. Minneapolis overawed me. Later I spent a summer in Chicago. Then I wasn't overawed at Minneapolis because Chicago is SO MUCH BIGGER than it and I got along fine in Chicago and so I felt kind of equal to the occasions in Minneapolis but you see that was several years before when I was a sophomore at Minnesota that was what I became when I entered there because from Moorhead I entered with advanced standing. A year credit for college work and I was kind of scared to death surrounded by to me they were all Minneapolis and St. Paul's 76:00city bred-city experience. Of course, they weren't because they came from all over the state. But I remember in a chemistry class and I hadn't realized it but a fellow, an outspoken fellow we were getting some supplies at the stock window or something and he heard me or I said something to him and he burst out just in stern rebuke and said, "well why do you always talk as though as if you were scared of us or scared of something." And I realized that I had been kind of afraid to talk out loud even. I was that kind of a youngster even though I was...

JL: What do you think made you change?

DG: ...what did I say, 21. But, that wasn't that I couldn't talk it was just that I was afraid to talk. I felt overwhelmed and essentially inferior to all 77:00these more sophisticated associates that I had.

JL: How did you overcome that?

DG: Just experience.

JL: Just experience.

DG: Of course that gave me quite a jolt. That made me realize that I should talk out loud at least. Talk at all talk out loud but I was talking as if I was scared and I guess I was, just with people.

JL: Hmmm.

DG: (Chuckle)

JL: People change. I wonder do you know what will happen to Mrs. Lemon? What will happen to her?

DG: I, oh, what will happen? Well, she has two sons. That's all but one of them is here and maybe both of them are here. I know that Burlan, the older one is the head counselor in the School of Education and so he'll if, even if he does it alone, he'll see that she is looked after all right. I don't know whether she 78:00can stay there alone. I doubt that. But, they'll do something.

JL: How does it make you feel when a lot of your friends are passing away around you? I mean does that give you a...

DG: The poet Thomas Moore expressed it: "When I remember all the friends so linked \ Together, I've seen around me, fall like leaves \ In windy weather \ I feel like one who treads alone some banquet hall deserted whose guests are sped whose lights are sped whose guests are fled and all but he departed \ Thus in the still of night \ Ere slumber's chains have bound me \ sad memory brings the 79:00life \ Of other days around me."

There is a kind of a sadness about it because the people you knew best are, that's true of me, they are all dead. There are a few that I learned to know a little later like Edger Yay who is in Buffalo now and he's quite a bit younger. The ones who are dead are the ones who are my age. But he spent two years here in our office at the time that I was head of the office and we got very well acquainted and were very congenial. We seemed to agree just in the right way. We didn't agree on everything but we were just congenial and we enjoyed each other's company. Well, he is now at The University of Buffalo but we had many 80:00contacts back east. When I first started my luncheons I was a delegate to a member of a committee of the Congregational Churches, a national committee that had a meeting at Buck Hill Falls in Pennsylvania. And I found the way to get to Buck Hill Falls was by way of New York City so when I found I was going be going through New York City I arranged to have an extra day or something on my way home and wrote to my former roommate, who was my roommate at Moorhead, that I'd be there and so on. Well, he was a law graduate. He got his bachelor's degree at 81:00University of Minnesota as I did but he got his law degree at Yale and he belonged to the Yale Club in New York City and he took me to lunch at the Yale Club and he had two other guests, a couple who was a son of one of a school mate who graduated with us at Moorhead with his wife. They were fairly newly married and so there were the four of us. Sigried's wife, my friend's wife who was entertaining us was not there but at this Yale Club I was quite impressed with the facilities and the possibilities. He didn't have a special room for us but at the Yale Club there was just one place, there were two places that were open to ladies. Yale is now co-educational so women have the run of the Yale Club but 82:00they didn't at that time.

But there was the room on the main floor a kind of a waiting room that they could go to and then there was the top floor where there was the ladies dining room and that's where he had this lunch because the lady who was one of the guests and I remember that very well. He took us and showed us a view of the skyscrapers out from this level. This tenth floor of the Yale Club. The view is lost now because the Pan American Building was put up and blocked off their view but it was a view at that time... Well, that's the first time I'd ever had a cocktail at noon but we had cocktails before we went into lunch and then we had 83:00a lovely lunch in this ladies' dining room. Well, I was building up the Editorial Advisory Board for the journal that I was just starting. This was about 1954, I guess, this New York experience and I wanted a national Editorial Advisory Board. It turned out to be international because I had some from Canada and one from Puerto Rico later, but I wanted to get the right people and it gave me a thought. If I could give a lunch at the Yale Club under the sponsorship of my friend, who entertained me there, that would be a way to kind of try out these people. I could invite quite a good many to be my guest at a lunch at the Yale Club. This is what I really did because he undertook to sponsor me and he 84:00sponsored me many years after that and I sent invitations to a number of people, men and women, who had written books on college teaching.

There were quite a number and others who had published this or that whom I invited and one man a Columbia University man for whom I'd already given an address in Salt Lake City on college teaching. I invited him, well, I had this lunch but I had I knew the custom there was to have cocktails before lunch, so, and I didn't know anything about it. I knew how to drink a cocktail but I didn't know anything about being host to a pre luncheon cocktail and so on. But, this Ed Durey that I speak of was at that time then at a university out on Long 85:00Island at Hofstra University and I was next time that I came to New York I think I stayed one night with him. He was, oh, I think he and his wife had separated I was going to say he was a bachelor but when I first knew him he had a wife but he had a second wife later but anyway he was alone at Hampstead whatever the reason was and he helped me. I just got him to because he was very sophisticated about cocktails and I got him to kind of look after the cocktail thing with me and as it turned out I gave many lunches both at the Yale Club in successive 86:00years and at other clubs. Some of them were faculty clubs and others were private clubs like the Yale Club and some were university clubs. At the University Club, in Los Angeles I gave several lunches and at The University Club in Montreal and, I think, another place and then a number of faculty clubs and besides The Yale Club the Cosmos Club in Washington that was perhaps my second luncheon. It may have been my first same year as the Yale Club one and The York Club in Toronto which is a very exclusive club too. I was host at all 87:00of those. Well, of course, after the first few I got so that I found that I could manage the cocktails all right. I would offer cocktails usually they would pass around a menu or if not they'd take an order for cocktails and then we'd have cocktails after we had placed our order for our meal.

We would have our cocktails during that time. I never offered them more than one. President Carter has been rebuking business lunches for having three martinis that sort of thing. We never did anything like that. I thought one was enough and I never even offered them more than one. But, one and I didn't make anyone that didn't want a drink of cocktail to drink one. There were a number of them would take tomato juice or something else. I would say, "Well, 88:00you don't have to drink what we drink but you just drink with us." And so on. (Said with humor.) Well, it helped to kind of break the ice because they were all strangers practically. We'd sit around a table usually eight or ten sometimes fewer and all and I could give you the statistics on it. On how many luncheons I had but they went, oh, they extended over many years and I invited dozens and dozens of people to a flock of luncheons. Maybe a half a dozen in different places. Cosmos Club in Washington, Yale Club in New York, Harvard Faculty Club at Cambridge and in Montreal either The Faculty Club, or The University Club at Toronto and so on. I'd invite them to a number and say if it should happen in this mobile age that you would be or could arrange to be at 89:00any of these places, I hope you can come to at least one of them. Well, of course, most of them couldn't come to any but they got their invitation and they would write replies and so forth and it helped to build up the image of the journal as a first a national and ultimately as an international journal in the minds of people who were people of influence as well as very delightful people to know and I hear from some of them still. Not as much now because they're getting old now too and some of them are dead. Well, that's enough of that. That's the luncheon aspect though of the journal. We haven't talked much about the journal have we?

JL: No, we haven't gotten to that.

DG: No. Well, all right. You asked me?

90:00

JL: I asked you how you felt about all your friends passing away.

DG: Oh, these friends, yes. Well, sad, of course, because although I remember them well and I'm gifted with visual imagery. I might not know you if I see you on the street I'm so defective and people right around me all the time I'm thinking like I am now I'm not thinking of you or deciding whether your eyes are too close together or too far apart or just right or whether your eyebrows are lovely or whether they should be different. I'm not thinking of things like that. I'm thinking of what I'm talking and all. So people around me I'm just as apt as not to pass up but people I really come to know I know I would recognize them and so on and the time comes people that I'm associated with I think I'd know you now if I'd see you but maybe two or three weeks ago I wouldn't have 91:00because I sat and talked to you and all thinking of something else and not really but I can visualize people. I can visualize my own family, my parents, my sister and my aunt and my grandparents and all. I can just see them but some people don't have that gift of visual imagery. I think most people do but I have it quite pronouncedly; and so I have that. People who are dead I know I remember them well. But, that isn't the same thing as being able to go for a walk with them or have a cup of coffee with them or have a meal with them and all.

JL: Does it make you fear that? Your death? At all?

DG: Fear death?

JL: Yes.

DG: Oh, no. No. I haven't I don't know how I'll feel when I come to die because 92:00I don't suppose that I'll ever come to die but once and I won't be able to report on it but I haven't any idea and I have no anticipation of fear at all. It's just something that will come and I don't know why I should be afraid of it. They used to scare people to death, you know, about it. If they died with any unforgiven sins they'd go to hell and be in a fiery furnace for the rest of their not life whatever they called it. That was TERRIBLE and it was, there are some awful things still going on that people and religious bodies BELIEVE that way. To die unshriven. Well, in the first place I don't believe that even though Christ gave some of his disciples the right to forgive sin, something 93:00like that, I don't believe the doctrine that priests are appointed in a kind of a divine way to forgive sins and so forth. That is for God to forgive sins. It may help many people to feel now here's my sins are forgiven and some priest has told me given me a penance maybe to whereby I can show my repentance, but I'm free and, of course, those religions that ask you are you saved if you have gone through some kind of a what is it called. You go through some kind of a thing and experience and you're saved. You've given your life to Jesus. That's the sort of thing. You're saved and...

94:00

JL: You're not afraid to die?

DG: No. I'm not at all eager to die, but I'm not afraid to die.

JL: What's your feeling about it? I mean have I don't (Embarrassed chuckle) I mean you're at a different age-than I am and I guess I just...

DG: Well, I feel that it must its natural. It must be, I BELIEVE, (pause) not without the conviction I would like but I believe because I think I JUST MUST BELIEVE that life doesn't end with death. Death is the death of this body that my personality has been inhabiting but there is something about me that won't die with my body. That's the doctrine of immortality, of course, and I the 95:00reason I cherish that belief of immortality is that, I think, it puts life on a higher level than if you think that when you die it's all over. That's quite different from a feeling that although you don't know what's beyond there is something beyond and, for instance, part of my philosophy is related to a doctrine of individualization. I remember when I was at Moorehead in my very first one of my first terms classes there was a course under Professor Ballard in zoology and along of some time, maybe fall term or winter term we came to 96:00sex. We had been studying simple organisms where sex didn't figure. But, a certain stage we come to sex and he defined sex as a device of nature to insure variation. That was a very neat definition. He didn't have to give us any stories like the standard jokes about the birds and the bees and so on. Sex is a device of nature to insure variation and the result of it is that no two people are alike, excepting identical twins. Identical twins are quite wonderful in the fact that they started out as one. I didn't understand that tell the other day. I asked Dr. Bogart who is a geneticist. He said in the case of 97:00identical twins the ovum, the fertilized ovum, is one and could develop into one person, but for some reason not known it must be a situation of unusual vitality or nurture or something that ovum divides and two individuals are formed and they are they have been one and they are still one excepting they're two people. That's what identical twins are hut apart from that all human beings are different, and remarkably so. Albert J. Knock, a writer that I have quoted in a spot or two says, "How can one think otherwise than that the Creator in 98:00establishing the human race on such a pattern that there be no two human beings alike, how can you think otherwise than that he has puts a high rating on individuality." The WHOLE scheme of things is arranged to create individuals NO TWO ALIKE and so if He puts a high rating on individuality an individual is important to God and so I like to think that and...

JL: How does that help you?

DG: It helps me in the thought that I am not like anybody else. You aren't like anybody else. Each person has certain qualities that are his own. Sometimes they are inferior. That is people of lower than average mentality for example. But, 99:00they have a kind of mentality just the same and they don't they can't have a place in the world. Young people of low mentality teach, unconsciously, teach other people things that are important to know. That is you don't have to be smart to be important. That's my philosophy. Individuality, even if it's an inferior type of individuality is important. Well, it affects me in that I recognize that I have I've inherited certain qualities, and my environment has given me certain opportunities and puts it's stamp upon me in different ways so I am what I am and the result is that with the talents that I have and the opportunities that I have I'm supposed to make a contribution. To there's an 100:00important kind of trinity in my belief, it isn't original with me, it has three parts. Obey, become, contribute. Obey is discipline it means to bring your powers under control. Become means, to grow. Become more tomorrow than you are today and the day after then you will be tomorrow. All that. Become. Become all that you can. All that your capacities and your opportunities permit you to become. Obey then that is discipline. Become and then contribute. You're expected to contribute and I think God expects us to contribute. The parable of 101:00the talents and a number of parables show that. That we are all supposed to in terms of the opportunities and the gifts and the talents and so forth and what we have become, to be able to make contributions that will at least please God and make life better.

JL: Doesn't it sadden you like people like E.B. Lemon, who just passed away last Friday, it's sad that he can't contribute anymore and that would give me a feeling like, gee that's...

DG: Well, two things. What he has done lives after him. That is he has he's an example of a very wide influence and he was in a position of great power and possibility and so he has influenced lots of people and those people are still 102:00living and they in their turn will influence other people. So that's called impersonal immortality but a man like Dean Lemon has a kind of impersonal immortality. His influence lives on after him.

JL: Do you think that will happen with you?

DG: Why of course. It will happen with you too. It won't always be a good influence. Some people leave a horrible influence after them. Like Hitler. Terrible influence. But, influence of Hitler is still an evil in the world. Then there is, of course, in the case of Dean Lemon other people. I think, this is the idea of not impersonal immortality but personal immortality. That's why 103:00should all this life that has been nurtured and developed in a person like Dean Lemon suddenly be snapped off and be no more? Isn't it likely that God has a very precious and important purpose function for this life that has been this life whose body has given out and that's what we call death. The body gives out. But, that there is still a life of importance. A life of contribution of importance and so on in whatever is beyond. Now, we can't people who try and many theologians and others have tried to picture the life beyond. But I don't I. don't know what it can be but I do feel that it's something that I couldn't understand. I'm a finite person, three dimensional. This thing this life 104:00that's, beyond maybe is multi-dimensional. At least it may have a dimension that I couldn't have any conception of and anyway whatever it is in due time I will find out. That is God may lead me into a life after this present life that he has for me and where I will have further life. Now, some people would think that's just naive or nothing to it. Some people just don't believe in that sort of thing. But, I do as I say for two reasons. One, because I think it seems logical that all this individuality that God that the whole scheme of things is organized to develop. That it must have some permanence. Ought to have some 105:00permanence and further that even if it doesn't. Even if it's all a mistake to live as though it had a permanence as if there is something beyond makes life richer and better and we're more purposeful and so on. If I were to think, "Now next year I'll be dead and I'm all through," it would have a BLIGHTING effect on me and I don't allow myself to think that way. I know that my, excepting for this continuing impersonal influence that I'll leave behind me such as it is, everything else could stop but I live a better life if I have a feeling that it isn't going to stop, That there is something when this body that will be worn 106:00out and my body is going to be cremated. It will become ashes that that's all but good but done past and so on but that I my personality and so on may have something that lasts and it makes my present life richer and more meaningful to feel that way. I just some man said, "If God didn't exist we'd just have to invent him because we'd have to have Him." Have to invent God. Well, this is something like it. You've got to have a sense of meaningful future even though it's just as black as night. You don't you're not constituted to understand it but maybe you're life will be such that you be prepared for something as many 107:00people have described it, that is beyond the comprehension of us mortals in our present life.

JL: Do you think that you'll know the people that you knew before after you die? I mean like your parents or you're...

DG: What about them?

JL: Do you think you will know them after you die?

DG: Well, I don't think of that because I don't know. I know that when I lost an aunt who was very near to me and it was very shocking because she died younger than she should have and the way I handled that was we're all God is in all of us and we are in God. That is there is a link between the divine and the human and if she is part of God's life why I can reach to her just as I can reach to 108:00God or she can reach to me too that sort of thing. But, I don't follow any beliefs in spiritualism. I think people in the life beyond, whatever it is, are not involved in this life. They're through with this life and, of course, some of the experiences people have with mediums are the sort to make you just wonder. I remember one, a woman who had lost her husband and she'd gone to a New York medium who told her things that astonished her and then supposedly brought her in communication I think it was her husband who was dead. And who told one 109:00of the things I remember was he told her things. Kind of showing off! He said, "President Kennedy, it was when Kennedy was president." President Kennedy will never see a second term because and then he gave a reason. The thing he said wasn't that he was going to be assassinated. No, he just. It was something. Some mistake he'd made and so he wouldn't have a second term. Well, now what in the world would a person in this spirit land, whatever it is, how, what, how could he be concerned as to whether the president of the United States would have a second term or not. That sort of thing. Absurd. But, that was done to kind of show off the power of this medium to bring a connection between this world and 110:00the next world. Well, they that's hokum and hooey and all that, I think.

JL: You don't conceptualize any world after this world then? You don't have any...

DG: I, no. I know what you mean. Conceptualize. I. don't try to think what it's like and so on. Excepting to feel it's not like this. That it's not like this. And we if we go into this, world beyond we will be not like we are now. We will be just as we were given a body for this life, well, we'll be given Paul speaks about a spiritual body we will perhaps be given. Whatever a spiritual body is something different from a physical body. Whatever but then that's just a just Paul's conceptualization. But, I don't even attempt that. I just I just have 111:00faith that probably when I come to die that I will be I will embody things that are just too precious to cast aside or burn up with my body. But, that's just a belief. I may be as wrong as can be but I think I'm better for believing that anyway.

JL: Yes. You have to believe in something, I guess.

DG: Yes, sure. Yes. Now you didn't come to see me to find out what my philosophy of life is did you? But...

JL: Sure I did.

DG: ...you've got some of it. (Chuckle)

JL: Sure. I'm glad. I'm glad that you talked to me about it.

DG: There's more to it than that but, I think once this is enough. You get you see my point of view.

JL: Well, I guess it's especially interesting after Dean Lemon passed away...

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DG: Yes, of course.

JL: ...because I knew him in a special way I think and...

DG: I...

JL: ...it kind of got to me.

DG: ... I've attempted in a poem that I wrote. I won't give it out to you but it's a blank verse or an unrhymed sonnet. But, the six lines at the end of it are an attempt to describe this unknown. We call it so. I've used the worked darkness. We call it so, the infinite unknown, the source, and destiny of being. 113:00Source of gifts we cherish most, faith, hope and love and precious gift of personality. To err prone yet nobly blessed to touch the hand of the eternal. The divine.

Well, that is; and I don't know whether you call that a conceptualization or not. I think...

JL: Did you write that?

DG: Yes. Yes.

JL: Oh.

DG: Yes.

JL: When did you happen to write that?

DG: Oh, sometime. It's within the last year.

JL: Ohhh.

DG: I've written two things in the last year. One is on my own birth that I 114:00think I remember. Which is utterly fantastic, but I think, I know I remember it subconsciously and it has come to me through dreams to remember when I was born because the event of being born is for the first time seeing light. Seeing light.

JL: How do you happen to remember that?

DG: I don't know excepting I, well, here it is. Its short it's just eight lines: "Would it seem very strange for me to say I have dim memory of my own birth \ When I who had known only darkness groped for light all fearfully strove toward \ Reached its glory and the precious breath of life \The fragrant blessedness of 115:00life and life \ Autonomous in vast unknown and free \ How could I not of all things \ This remember?"

Well, that a PhD. lady just laughed at the idea once when I said, "Could anyone remember their own birth?" And maybe people laugh at that too but I'm pretty sure that I've had dreams that I can account for only through the fact that once I was struggling to find light. Something that I had an instinct for but no experience of and that's the condition of the unborn infant.

JL: Do you remember any feeling?

DG: No.

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JL: Having any feeling?

DG: No. No. It isn't that. It's just simply that whatever it was it left in me something that came out it left something in my unconscious that came out in dreams that T had a number of that I can't account for otherwise. But, I can account for them as a memory of my own birth. I may be wrong, I may be crazy foolish and all but I've written that those eight lines on my own birth and this one that I quoted from is called Life. It's about life. It's a philosophy of life hut I can give you the whole thing some other time but I won't repeat it now. I've given you the six lines.

JL: Oh, that's just a part of the whole poem?

DG: Yes, that's just a part of it. Yes.

JL: Oh, I'd love to see it.

DG: A sonnet is 14 lines. Eight that form a kind of stanza and then six form the 117:00conclusion and I gave you the six. We call it so. The infinite unknown-- that sort of thing.

JL: Well, I would like to see it. I'd be very interested.

DG: Yes, well, I can give you copies.

JL: Why is it why do you think that you remember it and other people don't?

DG: Oh, I'm sensitive. I'm not nearly as sensitive as my wife is but and I don't mean sensible. I'm not nearly as sensible as she is either but she's more sensitive than I am, but I am more sensitive than many.

JL: Sensitive in what way? I don't understand.

DG: Well, I guess, I would realize what I did was these dreams that I had several times they haven't haunted me through my life but there was a time when 118:00they kind of surfaced and I think I was sensitive enough to, at least imagine, that those dreams must have had an origin in this birth experience. But, I might be wrong.

JL: Well, do you remember many events after you were born?

DG: Oh, yes. Yes, I can. I think I remember some things that many wouldn't. Wouldn't remember. I have two kinds of memories. One I call just sheer memory and then the other I call supported or reinforced memory of the I remember, for example and that's the way my autobiography is going to start. A description of me.

The autobiography is going to be called Harvest of Life and it starts out with a 119:00paragraph that shows me standing on one foot on my left foot with my right foot out resting on my left knee. Like this. I don't think I could do that now. I'm not limber enough to do it. But, that was easy then and it was a way of resting. First one leg and then the other and I did that. I know I did that and I remember it, but the reason I remember it particularly the thing I can remember is the feeling of my that I had. The strain on my left leg and the ease on my right leg which was the one that was being spared. But, my parents were out. Both my father and mother were out in this harvest field and they saw me. Something had gone wrong with the binder and they saw me across standing on one 120:00leg, you know, and they kind of laughed about it and then they told it later so I remember that. That's a supported or reinforced memory because I heard them tell about it. But, then I had memories that is things that I remember that I never heard anybody speak of and that I never have told anybody. A very delicate thing for example. I knew when I was just about a year old I apparently ate a green plum or something and had some kind of an internal derangement and, of course, I was I had a sister who was a small baby but I was a year I was a 121:00little past a year and I got quite sick and, of course, they were scared to death because I was very precious. I was the first born and this aunt who had taken care of me like a mother as well as my mother. Everybody, I'm sure was panicky although I didn't know anything about that at the time.

But, I know, that I was given an enema and in those days things like that just weren't talked about. It just was never talked about that time I was given an enema. Certainly but I learned indirectly afterwards what an enema was and I remembered. I knew that they gave me that in hope of relieving me from these aches and pains from this green plum, I heard about the green plum. I heard my mother speaking about the time that I had been sick and she thought that it must 122:00be that I got a hold of a green plum. Well, that's an unsupported memory planted in me and I think that I was about a year and three months old, I think, because my sister was, oh, it probably I may have been a year and a half because it must have been some time in the fall and I think she was just a little baby and it's not so difficult to take a little baby away. I think they took her with them. Then I remember some people at Stanford who were taking a small baby in a car with them back to New York City from across the country and they were both doctors. M.D.'s and they said it's the best time to move a baby when they are helpless in a crib or a basket. All they need is care. You can care for them just as well on the floor of a car as you can in a crib. Well, that's an example 123:00of a non-supported memory which I have but I have some others. For instance, I remember when I was learning to talk. It seems that I, of course, there is an element of support. Well, this is may be an example of a supported memory. Part of it isn't. But, it seems that I couldn't say boy and they were always asking me, what are you and they I what I would say would be, "doe, doe.

JL: D O?

DG: Doe, doe. Like dough that you make bread of or. Dough. And I thought I was saying boy but I knew that it was amusing. That's one reason they kept asking me. What are you and I'd say, "Dough." And, of course, they'd chuckle over it 124:00and so forth and I didn't know what I was saying at the time. I thought I was saying boy, but I remember that. I remember my feeling. They didn't know anything about my feeling but I knew that I was saying the wrong thing. But, I didn't know I was saying dough. I thought I was saying boy. I was trying to say boy and I thought it was boy.

JL: Well, what was your feeling?

DG: Feel? Well, I just I felt kind of puzzled. That was all. But, what is this? They say, what are you? And I say, "Boy." That's what I thought I was saying. And why do they seem amused and all because I didn't know I was it was only later when I heard them say that he used to say dough for boy that I came to 125:00realize what this queer feeling was. Well, that's an example of some of the memories I have. I have some other memories that are unsupported and some that are. But I have, oh, at least a dozen memories before I was four or five years old that I'm just as clear about as...

JL: That's remarkable. Most people can't remember before that time.

DG: Yes. Well, I can and then, of course, I can remember things later too. I have a very good memory now.

JL: I know that.

DG: Excepting that if I want to...