Oregon State University Libraries and Press

Delmer Goode Oral History Interview, June 21, 1979

Oregon State University

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JL: Where we were yesterday you had just arrived, can you hear me?

DG: Oh, yes.

JL: You had just arrived to O.A.C. in 1919.

DG: Oh, yes. Yes.

JL: And you mentioned that if Kerr had had a wider scope to his philosophy and actions that he would have been much better president.

DG: Yes.

JL: And I wanted to question you further about that. What you meant by that.

DG: Well, anything that would seem to reflect on Dr. Kerr would pain me because I admired him and revere his memory and all that and it wasn't entirely his limitations. It was essentially his wisdom in knowing that he could develop a great institution in terms of those things for which the separate land grant institutions were becoming famous and that is the practical subjects. 1:00But I mentioned those seven words in the land grant act of Congress that are "without excluding other scientific and classical subjects." Seven words. And all of the separate land grant institutions were ignoring that. Some of them were, for instance, a famous one Purdue University which had the name university. The only one for a long time excepting those that were state universities also, you know, like Ohio State University and so on. They were 2:00universities and Illinois University of Illinois which was a university although it became a land grand institution simultaneously. But, in general these separate institutions that were known as land grant colleges were neglecting those seven words. Purdue, for instance, I mentioned didn't have a liberal arts college. First thing I heard about at Purdue while I was a student at Minnesota was they don't have what we called an academic college. And that was characteristic so Dr. Kerr wasn't a lone sinner, at all. They were all playing up agriculture, engineering and others. Other practical subjects like home economics and forestry and pharmacy and so on and to some extent science. 3:00It happened here that we didn't have, those despite the fact that this was supposed to be an institution to promote the liberal and practical education of students in the several pursuits and professions in life. Liberal and practical education and yet all of the practical subjects were based on science and yet we didn't have at the time of the survey of higher education we didn't have major work in any of the basic sciences. There were programs in the School of Agriculture, if you were in agriculture, you could kind of major in 4:00chemistry or zoology and so on but those majors were not liberal arts majors. They were agriculture majors and so on. Well, that's the kind of institution that Dr. Kerr administered and made famous. It got to be the dominant institution.

JL: Weren't there people who tried to influence him? Tried to show him that liberal arts was the important part?

DG: No one would try to show Dr. Kerr because he didn't need it. He knew what he was doing and why he wasn't doing what he wasn't doing, I'm sure of that. But, he had this unmistakable job to develop these practical schools and that's what he did. Now, I think, that's enough to say about Dr. Kerr in 5:00that relationship. I don't want to reflect on him, but I do feel that the institution that he left when he retired was defective. And in fact that is supported by the results of the Federal Survey. But, first I think we should mention some of the events of the mid-twenties. That was my first decade here and early within a year, I think. Within a very few years after I came and had been accepted to stay I was asked to go by my boss the college 6:00editor as he was called, Edwin T. Reed, to go to Oregon City to the office of the secretary of the State Board of Higher Curricula. You've heard of that through this thesis of mine that you've looked up. That was an appraisal of the Oregon State Board of Higher Curricula. I was sent up there to copy the minutes and the reason for that was that controversies had begun to develop. We had to, once a year or at irregular times, present to the State Board of Higher Curricula the course changes that we proposed. Any new course or degree and so forth because that board had been established by the 7:00legislature as a supplement to the separate boards of regents that the different institutions had. University of Oregon had its own board of regents and we had our board of regents and the Oregon Normal School up at Monmouth had its own board. I'm not sure that it wasn't a single board for Normal School because later, at least, there were other Normal Schools. But there would be conflicts. These boards didn't have any power to do anything with excepting they could protest what an institution was doing. But they didn't have any right to, er, they didn't have any power to stop it excepting by protest. But this board of higher curricula was established and it was stated in a kind of a negative form. To determine what courses shall not be duplicated 8:00in the state system.

JL: This was established in 1909? Is that correct?

DG: I guess so. Yes. It's in the thesis there. I'm a little rusty on dates. But, I knew them once. But, that was established and it had been in existence a long time when I arrived here and was sent up to copy the minutes. And the reason for that and the reason we needed a copy was because University of Oregon was protesting course changes that we were proposing and...

JL: Why in particular?

DG: ...well, I'll come to that. I'll come to that in a minute. It's kind of amazing but that's what it was in the field of liberal arts. So I went up to 9:00Oregon City but I stayed at the Multnomah Hotel in Portland which was a fine new hotel in Portland. It's now an office building but I stayed there and then I went by streetcar to Oregon City in the morning and I worked there several days copying those minutes in longhand so that we would know just what the State Board of Higher Curricula had ruled in the past. We had various things documents that notified us but we had to have it. Well, while I was there I discovered or was told that a woman from the University of Oregon had been there the week before doing the same thing.

JL: Now had Dr. Kerr sent you or Mr. Reed or the Board of Regents?

10:00

DG: Well, it was the president's office through Mr. Reed who.

JL: I see.

DG: The college editor. Yes, he wasn't doing it on his own. But, the president had wanted this, or the executive secretary probably, in the president's office.

JL: Why did they choose you, Mr. Goode?

DG: Well, they thought that I was capable of doing it and all. That's all. We were going to have to edit the briefs. The documents that we would submit in defense of our proposals and so this was good background for me. Well, I did that. I found ways in which I could somethings in those minutes that we already had a copy of I was able to skip. Just make note of the fact we have this and I got those together in a volume about this thick which is in 11:00the library.

JL: About 4 inches.

DG: The minutes of the State Board of Higher Curricula and I'm credited as the compiler. I had two copies. One was for the library and then I later gave the other copy, I don't know whether they have kept both, but anyway you could find that if you just curiously want to look at it. At the time I came here Dr. Kerr had just set up a division a school like organization, not called a school, of what were called service departments. Those service departments were basic departments offering courses necessary for students in these 12:00practical schools like agriculture, home economics and engineering and so on. But, they didn't carry major credit. They were just courses. They were first called the service departments and the man who had been named dean of the service departments, a botanist, Dr. Ezra Kraus had been made dean of the service departments and also he had been specially designated to see that the catalog statements were in line with this because this had involved some reorganizations. Several departments that had been in the School of Agriculture 13:00like botany and chemistry and zoology had been moved into this division of service departments. No longer in school of agriculture and he had to see that they were printed in the catalog under the new heading and so forth. Well, that was one thing and then this man received a call to a new job either at the University of Chicago or University of Wisconsin. He was at both places but I don't remember which was first. But, he left here. He was a very distinguished research man, but he laid the foundations for these service departments but then a man was brought from New York. Somewhere in New York State. M. Elwood Smith. Dr. M. Elwood Smith, a Ph.D. from Harvard was 14:00brought here to take charge of these service departments. They were really in the area of liberal arts. A very poor representation of liberal arts. It included modern languages, for example, and English as well as the sciences that I mentioned and it was in the area of the liberal arts but it wasn't supposed to be degree granting. That's the weakness. I feel that Dr. Kerr had, in permitting this under the heading without excluding other scientific and classical subjects, we should have had majors in these subjects and here we were we were offering them as non-major and having trouble. Some of the courses we 15:00wanted to introduce in these service departments were protested by the University of Oregon which claimed kind of an exclusive liberal arts jurisdiction. Any liberal arts had to be there! We were out of LINE if we had it. And we had to defend a number of our courses. Well, that was a beginning.

JL: I thought Dr. Kerr stressed the complete man. Studying technical subjects as well as the humanities?

DG: Well, he always emphasized that. I could show you quotations where he said that. "The education of the man himself is the most important thing rather than the professional." Yes, he believed that and...

JL: So, why didn't he follow through with his beliefs then?

DG: I don't know excepting that other similar institutions were doing the same 16:00thing and it would have been hard for him and that was one fight that he, I guess, felt whose time hadn't come yet. It came, but, mostly it wasn't his fight. But, I don't know. Somehow or other, seems to me, that during his active years he could have been avowing. It would have been at a cost, but he could have been avowing the RIGHT of his institution that his institution was being denied the RIGHT to give major work in the liberal arts. He never expressed himself that way. He spoke of the importance of those subjects. But, it was part of the equipment of people who would be majoring in agriculture, engineering, etc. That sort of thing. Well, we had during the 17:0020's we had a series, year after year, we had protests from the University of Oregon about the courses we wanted to introduce and Dean Smith who had been placed in charge of these so called service departments proposed that the departments be given the heading of a school, non-degree granting but a school, and that it be called School of Basic Arts and Sciences and the University of Oregon protested that and did everything they could to get it disapproved. But it was approved and...

JL: How was their protest manifested?

DG: To the State Board of Higher Curricula which had the right to determine 18:00anything that should not be duplicated.

JL: So how did the State Board of Higher Curricula handle this problem?

DG: Well, they didn't do so bad. Dr. Kerr was a very strong leader and he faced them and presented the arguments as he saw them and he was very convincing and we didn't get much in the way of adverse rulings But, we had these repeated protests which meant that we had to file briefs and the library has lots of those briefs. They used to be most of them listed under my name because although I hadn't written them I had handled them from the I helped write them but I had handled them in the practical sense and they got connected somehow 19:00with my name. I never claimed authorship. They were issued under the name of President Kerr. The president of the institution

JL: Who were the other individuals involved in making these decisions?

DG: These...

JL: At this institution.

DG: ...the main one, of course, was Edwin T. Reed, the college editor in terms of the writing aspect. But, various deans and other faculty people who had ability and were called on for their ability helped. . .

JL: Who were some outstanding individuals?

DG: Yes. Yes. Yes.

JL: Who for example? Which outstanding individuals can you think of?

DG: Hector McPherson. Hector McPherson was a professor of economics. A doctor. A Ph.D. and he was a very shrewd analyst and could see the weak point 20:00and the strong points of any issue and so a great deal of dependence was place on him in preparing these briefs. He went over them and made suggestions.

JL: Did George W. Peavy have any influence on Dr. Kerr's decisions or opinion?

DG: Well, he was Dean of Forestry.

JL: Yes.

DG: And as a dean, an outstanding forestry he had a he was the leading one in that area, well, he stood well with Dr. Kerr. All the deans did. I don't think that Dr. Kerr was the kind that you just couldn't be with at all unless you were in good relation with him because he was a very dominant man but he was one that everybody who was close to him respected and co-operated with and all 21:00that. So. Dr. Peavy was in good standing and he became actually Dr. Kerr's successor, you know, and Dr. Kerr became chancellor and it was necessary to name a president and the presidents were being named on the other campuses. There was an interval there and then in about 1932 and "33 when the institutions didn't have presidents. They weren't supposed to have. The chancellor was over them all. Dr. Kerr conducted commencement at the University of Oregon. They didn't have a president. And so Dr. Peavy who was the senior dean became the successor as president of Oregon State.

JL: Why don't we continue with the '20's and then we could talk about these 22:00things later.

DG: Yes. Go back to the '20's. Well, I don't think it would be profitable to go through all the details but year after year we had these briefs to submit to the Board of Higher Curricula and then Dr. Kerr would go and meet the board. He usually went alone. He wasn't one to take a delegation with him, whereas, The University of Oregon usually would have, as you might say, the whole place packed with spokesmen, people who would speak. If you would shut this off a minute I'll tell you something that I don't believe ought to be put in the record. I don't know whether it should. Well, the University of Oregon had a large number of prominent people of Portland and perhaps other 23:00places present at this meeting to express their views in support of their proposal to enlarge their offerings in engineering and perhaps establish a School of Engineering and as these people were called on, one by one, a lady from a very prominent Portland family was called on.

JL: Now this is what Dr. Kerr told you over a meal?

DG: He told me this in his office in Portland. Yes. In his office just when he was kind of reminiscing.

JL: After he had retired?

DG: Yes. Yes. Oh, yes. I don't think he would have told it even in 24:00confidence if he hadn't already retired, but, he was kind of out of things. Anyway, he said when they called on this lady, Mrs. --with a name that was well known in Portland, they called on her and she arose she was an IMPOSING AND ELEGANTLY GOWNED, LARGE, and he motioned, kind of, around the upper part of her to indicate that she was a very ample lady and she arose with considerable dignity and but this is what she said, "engineering at an agricultural school? 25:00ABSURD!" And that is all she said. She sat down.

JL: (Chuckle)

DG: And that amused Dr. Kerr very much. All right. Now do you want to go on?

JL: Yes.

DG: Well, Dr. Kerr was there alone but he made his simple point. You couldn't get around it. That they couldn't legally take engineering away from us but they were authorized and entrusted by this State Legislature to determine what courses should not be duplicated in Oregon higher education and so they decided, that time, not immediately but in the course of successive actions to 26:00discontinue engineering at The University of Oregon. Instead of increasing it they discontinued it. That really is an example of the strength of Dr. Kerr. That he was able to just in a one man performance handle the issues that were being distorted and confused and so on to make out of ALL things The UNIVERSITY of Oregon ought to have a school of engineering. All he insisted was that Oregon State must have a School of Engineering to comply with the act of Congress that had established its type of institution.

JL: You mentioned last time that there were these little problems were called cats and dog's fights.

27:00

DG: Yes. That's what these were. These Board of Higher Curricula things were, of course, that isn't the right expression. Cat and dog fights. They were bad enough though. They were very disagreeable and very time taking. The times that we spent preparing those briefs and, of course, the University of Oregon prepared briefs, too. I know nothing about how much work they put on them. But, I know that a lot of work was put on ours and a lot of work of a lot of people. But, the actual writing of them, putting them in shape, was the job of the editor's office. That's what the editor was for. That's why they kind of were funneled through me although I wasn't the editor I was the assistant editor and I was the right hand man and all that. And they're all on file, I think, not only in the library but also in the Oregon State Archives.

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JL: Were the students involved in this animosity? This feeling?

DG: Yes. There was lots of student animosity fomented. There were poor relations among the students and the faculties, too. The institutions didn't get along well and it was quite the thing to ridicule the other institution.

JL: Was it manifested in any kind of vandalism or slander?

DG: No. Mostly ridicule. There was some vandalism. I don't know whether our Oregon State ever did any vandalism down at the University of Oregon. They may have but I don't know anything about it, but I know that there was vandalism on this campus. We had a statue called the Lady of the Fountain down at...

29:00

JL: Yes.

DG: ...you know about that and that was undoubtedly not merely a prank but a kind of a bit of meanness because it was a kind of a rallying point on our campus here. An example of the attitude-at an alumni meeting, this really oughtn't to be on the tape. Maybe you could shut it off a minute.

JL: You were telling me...

DG: Well, this is, I think, this can be cited as an example of the lack of respect and good will that was being practiced on both sides. But at the University of Oregon I could give examples although I didn't have many student contacts but I could give examples of the kind of condescension and general 30:00tendency to ridicule anything connected with Oregon State. This was at an alumni gathering, I'm told by an alumni, about a group of college people on some occasion who were getting acquainted with each other. They were all strangers but something had thrown them together and it finally after they got to talking about general things they began to kind of introduce themselves to each other and so on and at that stage one of them spoke up and said, well I've been interested in this but I could have told most of you what college or university you were from even before you told me. For example, I knew that you 31:00and he pointed to a man from The University of Oregon I could tell you were from The University of Oregon.

JL: O.K.

DG: He said, "How could you tell that I'm from The University of Oregon?" And the speaker said, well, a number of things. For example, the way you picked your nose."

JL: (Chuckle)

DG: (Laughter) Well that got a great laugh, you know, because that was making fun of The University of Oregon. Well, of course, they were quite capable of making fun of Oregon State similarly. I'm sure they had, if anything, worse ridicule at their alumni meetings but that's an example and it was, well, once I was coming up from Eugene and had a ride with some University of Oregon alums 32:00who had been attending a meeting there on the campus and they were coming through Corvallis, I don't know why, but they were going up the west side and as we entered Corvallis, they had been all right during the journey up but as we entered Corvallis and they became conscious of the fact they were entering Corvallis one of them said, "oh, it's a nice little town." In front of me, you see. My home town. "It's a nice little town." (Said condescendingly) Well, that was a very innocent, not innocent, but a mild example of the tendency to ridicule and play down and all that. Well, there was a lot of that in those 33:00years. Later one benefit that has come about after the bitterness of starting the state system of higher education. The state system of higher education has actually been an instrument for the promoting of better relations and the institutions are now more mature than they were and just above that lower level of ridiculing each other. I'm sure they do some of it still but it's not like it used to be. It used to be DISGRACEFUL. It was give and take. One was just as bad as the other, I'm sure.

JL: Was this animosity present when you arrived in 1919?

DG: Oh, yes. Yes.

JL: So, it had been stewing a long time then?

DG: Oh, yes. I didn't bring it. (Laughter)

JL: No, no. (Chuckle)

DG: I was in no sense responsible. I became aware of it. Of course, I came 34:00from Minnesota where there is just one university. The land grant University of Minnesota is a land grant institution also and I wasn't aware of that kind of thing. There are two campuses and there was, at Minnesota, one in St. Paul and one in Minneapolis, they are 14 miles apart and agriculture and home economics and forestry are over on the St. Paul campus but engineering is on the main campus and so there isn't that that split. But, there's some but not very much and I guess I told you the other day that when the home economics girls of the so called farm campus, it's called the St. Paul campus now, but received their degrees along with the regular university commencement. They always received a 35:00great round of applause because of the fact they were preparing themselves to be home makers and wives and so on, so at least the men of the audience gave them good applause. So, there was good feeling rather than bad feeling between those two campuses.

JL: What...

DG: But not here.

JL: Not here. What was your opinion of the Zorn-MacPherson bill?

DG: Well, I knew...

JL: Advocating...

DG: Yes. I knew plenty about that. Dr. MacPherson who was on our faculty and helped these briefs, prepare these briefs, and he also became a member of the [unintelligible] well, he finally resigned. He had a farm and he went to live on his farm and he ran for the legislature and became a member of the 36:00legislature and he introduced, I think, at least he certainly was an influence in the passing by the legislature of an act in the late '20s to arrange for a federal survey by the United States Office of Education of Higher Education in Oregon. And that's called the Oregon, well, the survey The Federal Survey of Oregon Higher Education. And it was published in 1929. Now, I'm not clear on dates, but that survey had three main men on it with a troop of assistants, of 37:00course, secretaries and so forth. But, they were important men. One was from The United States Office of Education. One was from The University of Buffalo and I forget the third one. The main one was A. J. Klein who was the leader, you can find that survey in two volumes in the library. That survey went into all of the aspects of higher education in Oregon and it recognized when it gathered data together that Oregon's population and actual resources, at that time, in 38:00the latter '20's were limited. That it was not possible or practical for Oregon to compete with some of the great state institutions whether land grant or state universities of the populous states like Illinois and Michigan and Pennsylvania and so forth. And Indiana. And it stated that. Oregon must work out some kind of a scheme for having first class higher education without overtaxing its resources or particularly beyond its capacity to support a good program.

And so they got the idea of, they didn't call it a state system, it came later 39:00to be called, well, maybe they did a program in higher education in Oregon which was modeled somewhat after a scheme of higher education that was quite in vogue, at that time. University of Chicago had reorganized itself on the basis of a plan whereby students would delay specialization until after the sophomore year. In the first two years they would devote themselves to getting a good general education. No specialization and then after this two years of general 40:00education then they could devote themselves to specialization in a high degree'. And that's what The University of Chicago did. Organized itself on that basis. Well, these men in the survey were strongly influenced by that. That Chicago scheme and it was being adopted other places also. So they proposed it for Oregon. A lower division program, they called it, freshman, sophomore work should be developed at all of the institutions. A strong program in which the aim would be to give a good general education without any specialization. Specialization should be kept out of it. Just a liberal education. They 41:00called it general education. Could be called liberal education though. That's what it's called now more commonly. But, at that time, there was a great vogue for the term general education.

JL: This is what MacPherson proposed?

DG: Well, he didn't propose this, but he did propose this survey and...

JL: So how did The University of Oregon react to this?

DG: How did they react. Well, I was coming to that. The University of Oregon, well, of course, first the survey recommended this lower division general education. Two years of general education which should be on every campus and developed. In HIGH degree and so on. But, specialization or 42:00majoring reserved for junior and senior years and graduate years and they recommended that. Then they recommended, they had in mind it's known from comments although it isn't actually embodied in the report it's known that they had the idea of developing a system of higher education for Oregon that would be like what Oregon might have if it just had one university on one campus. Like Minnesota's although Minnesota's was on two campuses. But, take Wisconsin. All on one campus. Illinois all on one campus. That sort of thing. But, it wasn't. It had two main campuses. Eugene and Corvallis and 43:00they proposed that there be-these were their words. "A great School of Science should be developed at Corvallis similarly a great School of Arts, Letters and Social Sciences should be developed at Eugene." So, there would be two schools. A School of Science and a School, let's say of Liberal Arts, omitting science. Usually they're together. At Minnesota, they are just one college. At Wisconsin they are one college. But, they were to be separated here. That would mean that then further professional schools based on the arts and sciences should be located on campuses where their major work was. That 44:00would mean that Schools of Agriculture, Engineering, Forestry and so on based on science would be at Corvallis, which they already were. But that schools based on the social sciences, they mentioned social sciences, arts and social sciences was their expression, would be at Eugene and that meant the School of Commerce at Oregon State, which was our biggest school, would have to be moved to Eugene because that's where the social science to be. And it was. It was moved to Eugene and so on.

Well, during the time, I believe it was, I'm not sure about the date but during 45:00the time when the Board of Higher Education was struggling with this report whether to adopt it or not they didn't have to adopt it but they what they did they tried to and they couldn't agree and then they just they spent a year trying to find other schemes that might work. But, they found that everything that someone advocated was proposed by somebody else. So, they couldn't find anything that they could really adopt and finally they settled down and decided to adopt the recommendations of the survey commission. And that meant that the School of Science was established here and it meant that humanities and social sciences were continued at The University of Oregon but it meant that The 46:00University of Oregon lost major work in the sciences. The natural sciences. But it also meant that we lost our School of Commerce.

JL: Now this must have been in the early '30's then?

DG: Yes. Yes. Well, it was instituted March 7, 1932. That's when the board adopted it.

JL: That's also when Kerr became chancel or then?

DG: Yes. He became chancellor that fall. This action took place March. Well, I guess, that was the year that the...

JL: How...

DG: ...that the Zorn-MacPherson Bill was Dr. MacPherson was free of any connection with the institutions. He was a member of the legislature. He was a citizen of the state. Mr. Zorn was a resident of the Willamette Valley, somewhere. I never knew him but that Zorn-MacPherson Bill was proposed to do 47:00things that the State Board of Higher Education and the Survey Commission had not done and that was to do what the Zorn-MacPherson Bill said; to merge. But, the opponents called it moving. It got presented to the people of the state as the school moving bill. It meant that The University of Oregon virtually would be moved to Corvallis and that Monmouth that school up there would be moved to Eugene and the Law School of The University of Oregon instead of being moved to Corvallis would be moved to Salem and where it could make use of the State Law 48:00Library. And so it was represented to the people as not a good idea of integrating the program of higher education.

JL: What was your opinion?

DG: Well, if it could have been worked it would have been wonderful. It would have meant a great university at Corvallis here and the reason that was done was because we had a better campus than The University of Oregon. They had some fine buildings, but very inadequate. They were always short of space. They had been putting their money and they bragged about it into professors. Into faculty. Not in buildings. Dr. Kerr had seen to it that we had buildings. We didn't have any elegant buildings except the Memorial Union but we had a lot of buildings. Good brick buildings and the Survey Commission were impressed with this. They thought of this single university idea and talked about it. This 49:00came out but never officially.

JL: Well, it caused a lot of bitterness though, didn't it?

DG: Oh, my. Yes. It was terrible and it was exciting, but very, very good and there was some, I believe, some skull-duggery, too, in connection with petitions. And I couldn't prove that but that was my belief at the time. I guess it might have been proved but it was The University of Oregon was desperate because they were going to Eugene was going to lose the university and all that. You can't BLAME them. They were desperate.

JL: So, it was brought to a head during this period of time then? All the conflicts?

DG: Yes. Yes, well, the election was held in May and the Zorn-MacPherson Bill was defeated but it was, it really was, I think, a good idea but, of course, 50:00it was too drastic and, I think, moving the Law School to Salem that was supposed to get a lot of Salem votes. But I don't believe it did. I think it got more opposition for the bill than it did help because the Law School was part of The University of Oregon and it should have been part of the State University if it were a centralized one and it should probably have been at Corvallis too It could have been argued that it would be only 35 miles from the State Law Library instead of 75 miles while it was down at Eugene. That sort of thing, but, anyway it had weaknesses and flaws and those killed it. A lot of fierce opposition and that bill was lost.

JL: How did the depression affect all of these problems?

51:00

DG: Well, it aggravated everything. That was one reason that would have been one argument for one university instead of a scattered program. But, it was when the state system was being instituted it was the enrollments were dropping not because of the upheavals in higher education but because people didn't have money to go to school with. Not merely pay tuition but to pay expenses away from home. All that. Enrollments dropped. The enrollment of Oregon State, I think, went down to less than 2,000. I think, the lowest enrollment I've ever known it to have during that year or two early in the depression and so The State Board of Higher Education in instituting it's program had to combine 52:00budget curtailments with this new program and it was talk aboutthe'20's the mid-'20's being a time of upheaval of that that's when I said cat and dog fight but fights anyway between The University of Oregon and Oregon State. That was bad but in the instituting of the new program which the board adopted March 7, 1932 that was accompanied by curtailments of budgets, and reduction of faculty. There were many, many people all through the state system but particularly here 53:00and at Eugene who lost their jobs and of all times to lose your job was a time when everybody was losing jobs and there weren't any jobs to get and so forth. And I remember going to the acting dean of home economics who had the job of organizing a faculty in home economics at the University of Oregon. They had some they didn't have a school but they had always offered some courses in home economics but under the new arrangement she was the dean of it even though it was down at Eugene. Up at Eugene whichever you call it and so she had to make trips back and forth to the boards office in Salem in the old State Capital 54:00Building and they had chosen an executive secretary and put him on a good salary to do all of the to managing in the inauguration of this new program. Very drastic program which was causing demoralized attitudes, both here and at The University of Oregon for example and I won't go into the other campuses. They had some troubles too. But here we were losing our School of Science, also Landscape Architecture which we had developed being moved to Eugene. It was our program and University of Oregon was losing science and so on.

55:00

And in addition to that they had to cut faculties and I rode to in a car with a lady, A. Grace Johnson was her name, she was head of a department in the School of Home Economics and the acting dean because the dean of home economics was in China at the time on a leave and on a home economics mission and this Miss Johnson, during the trip to Salem, I remember saying that the tragic consequences that were being fulminated which we'd be in in just no time and I remember her saying there will be breakdowns and suicides. And there were. We 56:00had a man on this campus who had developed our radio station. Still in existence. KOAC. A state station but it was our station and he had developed it actually constructing the machinery of it. He was a physicist and here this he lost his job and he shot himself and I know there were breakdowns and this woman herself who overworked during this, time as acting dean within a couple of years was on some professional trip to, a book says it was Salt Lake City but as 57:00I remember it was Denver. She dropped dead. I think it was the altitude. She had during this time when she was overworking she had attended a family reunion somewhere up the valley or down the valley depending upon your sense of direction. Somewhere up here and someone in the family group had flu and she caught it from him and it left her with a weakened heart and that undoubtedly is why her heart failed her. She evidently overdid. When you go to a high altitude like Denver which is a mile hile you should be careful for the first 24 hours of your activities to take it easy and so on and maybe she hadn't and so- 58:00I don't know but anyway she dropped dead in a hotel. I think it was, I'm quite sure it was Denver. Denver...

JL: If you had been in charge of the Board of Higher Education how would you have handled the unification program? How would you have done it differently?

DG: Well, one of the things in the new program was the establishment of a central office of information in the board's office. E.T. Reed, I know, who was college editor here and the best equipped of those known having editorial preparation I'm sure that he could have had that post. But it would have meant 59:00his probably picking up stakes here in Corvallis and going to Portland or is it I mean to Salem, or as it turned out later when the board office was established at Eugene instead of when Dr. Kerr became chancellor he decided that he was going to function that he'd better do it from Eugene in order to get their help. Which he didn't get but he hoped to get. Well, I know Mr. Reed could have had that job, but I remember, we were in a hotel in Salem, once working on some documents for the board office and we had two rooms connecting and he went into his room and although he didn't close the door he didn't turn on a light. He 60:00just sat in a semi-dark room there for a long while. Maybe an hour. Pondering. And he finally came out into the room where I was and, I remember, his saying that he didn't want to go, He didn't want that job. For his at his time of life and with his family responsibilities and so on. He didn't want it. But he said Professor Byrne. Professor Byrne had come here from The University of Wisconsin and he was head of our department of journalism and he said Professor Byrne could handle that. The University of Oregon had an editor called University Editor but he was a young man with a career before him 61:00and not one likely to take a job like this. He wasn't, I don't think, experienced enough to take it.

But Professor Byrne had a Master's Degree in journalism from The University of Wisconsin and when he was approached and he wasn't established here in Corvallis very long, he hadn't been living here but he didn't own a house. Mr. Reed owned not only a house but a farm out south of town so Professor Byrne was freer and he took the job. Well, now what am I coming to on that. Oh, well, the kind of work he took the job over first with an office in Salem, I believe, but 62:00after Kerr became chancellor why his office too was moved to Eugene and he moved. He moved to Eugene and many things that were board the board's business of getting the program established including the publication of a catalog. Here was a program that had never happened before and it had to be introduced to the public and we were given the job of editing a poster about...

JL: All right.

DG: I'll start out this. I'll say meanwhile before 1932 or by 1932 I had been married for six years, but we'll go into that in another connection.

63:00

JL: All right.

DG: All right. Now, in 19- by preparing, well, in the spring of 1932 our office, had got out our Corvallis office got out for the state system of higher education this poster announcing the program, which indicated the general program this program of general education through the lower division freshman and sophomore years and then upper division specialized schools of science. The School of Science at Corvallis and a School of Arts and Social Sciences at Eugene. Which was later 64:00divided into two schools and our School of Science here might have been divided into a School of Physical Science and a Biological Science but that was never done. It was kept and we preferred it to be one School of Science. Then the professional schools were listed. Just in alphabetical order. Agriculture here, business at Eugene, Engineering here, forestry here, home economics here, education both here and at Eugene be-, cause education had to be on both campuses although there was quite a tussle over that. Pharmacy here, medical school in Portland they were all on this poster, but before school started in the fall there had to be a catalog because 65:00all of the old catalogs of the University of Oregon, a catalog and our catalog and all were no longer operative. So, then the board decided to emphasize the unity of the state system of higher education that there should be one catalog for the WHOLE program. And someone had to edit that catalog and I was the one chosen to edit this unified catalog and that became during the summer of 1932 my main job and I made many trips back and forth to Salem and later to Eugene but mostly to Salem at first, until fall. But, when the chancellor's office was moved but I had to see deans and deans came. I did the editing here in 66:00Corvallis in our office here in what is now Bexell Hall but I had to take the copy that deans of these various schools every dean of major field in the state system was in charge of the work in his field wherever offered. Dean of science was in charge of work in science offered at Monmouth or LaGrande or down at Ashland as well as at University of Oregon and all that. And some of it was quite confusing.

JL: That was a major responsibility.

DG: Oh, yes it was. Well, I had to, of course, these deans each one prepared 67:00his own copy not only for his major campus like the dean, let's say, the dean of social sciences as there came to be, quite soon, and there was a dean of humanities or of arts and letters as it was first called. Those deans from Eugene as well as the dean of science on this campus had to get their copy ready not only for the work of their major school on their basic campus but for the work to be offered on other campuses in their field and' it was, particularly with this lower division business because the lower division which was supposed to be offered on all campuses involved the fields of these major deans too like science, arts and letters and social science. Those were all parts of lower 68:00division, too. Lower division work in social science was part of the lower division although it was under similarly under the dean of social science. That's where some of the complications arose and the times that came afterwards were after 1932 were even in many ways worse than those in the mid-20's because of these people losing their jobs and all. That's because there were, oh, just scores of people at both here and at Eugene who lost their jobs IN THE DEPRESSION when there wasn't any chance to get a job. I'll tell you later some of the relief that was attempted in that area. Well, these deans did their 69:00best. They took the directions given to them by the board and used their common sense and their ingenuity and so on and each one prepared his catalog.

JL: Were you designated to do this catalog by the board?

DG: By the board's office. By their executive secretary. Yes.

JL: Because they were very impressed with work that you had previously done?

DG: Well, at least, with E.T. Reed our office was a good editorial office, you know and they just needed us. They made use of us. E.T. Reed had to run the office and anyway I had become I had become the catalog person as the first big job I had when I came here was to edit our catalog. The Oregon State catalog 70:00that year and every year after. I was editor of the catalog for a long time. So I had experience in editing. Well, those deans prepared their copy and it was, for instance, dean of social science the work at Eugene was a major program for students majoring in social sciences and then work at the lower division level that would be offered at Eugene and at Corvallis and at Monmouth and La Grande and so on. Well, the real problem was that lower division thing because the board had designated a dean of lower division who had authority over the program freshman and sophomore work. Unspecialized. Freshman and 71:00sophomore work and yet it involved work offered by these three major deans. Arts and letters, social science and science. Part of their field too and I'll go into that just in a few minutes. But, these deans did their best but they had about all they could do to understand their own separate programs. It was something that had never been before or anywhere else and so they had a big job and they came to depend on me. They could consult the other deans and so on but I was handy and I found that I was being consulted by all these deans in connection with their program. A dean might come up from Eugene to see me.

72:00

JL: Is that right?

DG: Yes. In connection with his catalog copy and so forth. And then I went to Salem but I did my work here, nevertheless and so I got acquainted with all the deans and co-operated with them and they co-operated with me. They...

JL: Even the ones down at the U. of O.? They were receptive to your suggestions?

DG: Oh, yes. As long as they could get something out of me. They weren't too fond of me, of course, because here I was I don't doubt they were kind of suspicious of me because my slant towards Oregon State that I might manipulate things to their disadvantage but I was scrupulous in that respect. But, and I think they in general trusted me. They had ways of if they'd have had doubts 73:00through the executive secretary of the board why they could have put things to right all right. Anyway I got a perspective in editing that catalog on the state system of higher education that just practically nobody else had because I was, I had documentary materials from every school and, of course, the executive secretary of the board had to but I was handling them, my job was to make sure that the catalogs stated what was what so that it would be understood, clearly understood, so it would be true and accurate and everybody understood that that 74:00was my job and that's the job I was trying to do. And they were always helpful as could be. We gathered data on the faculty. All these faculties. We had a file folders. Big file drawer of information about all of the different faculty people. Those that were left.

JL: What kind of information?

DG: Well, we used to put in catalogs. The title and the degrees held, where the degrees were from, previous positions held and all that. A lot of information which we don't publish now but we used to and we gathered all that. But, when it came right down to it as the autumn was approaching it was decided that we just have to get that catalog out before school started. Because the 75:00school couldn't operate without it and so although we had all this information about the faculty we recognized that under each school the school faculty was listed with its degrees and titles but that's all. So, we wouldn't be publishing a catalog without faculties. But, nevertheless we left out the general faculty which we ordinarily would have had and would have used. This bock included, (you can see it in the library you could see a copy in our office in the publications office) contained the general information and then each 76:00school with its offerings at Eugene if it was a Eugene school or Corvallis if it was a Corvallis school. At Eugene, at Corvallis, at Monmouth, at LaGrande, at Ashland and in the case of the medical school it was at Portland. The medical school was included. Well, we published that catalog and it was, I think, 600 pages. It would have been certainly that or more. You can see how many pages there are in it if you want to take a look at it. Big, thick, book and paperbound there. There you'll find clothbound copies in the libraries. Well, I got a kind of a reputation as understanding this program and so people, the chancellor's office. Dr. Byrne would ask me questions because I 77:00knew things that he didn't yet know and deans would ask me about the work in other fields and so forth because I had the catalog copy to refer to and along about that time after the system was really established and going with Dr. Kerr as chancellor effective in September of 1932 these curtailed faculties, the depression was on, but the state system was being established and somehow part of this process I had got a kind of a reputation as understanding curriculum and I had begun back in the '20s to be interested in curriculum.

78:00

JL: Had you lost interest in teaching?

DG: No, teaching didn't come in until later. Teaching is an aspect of curriculum.

JL: But you wanted to teach eventually in the '20's?

DG: No, I didn't plan to teach. I was just becoming a kind of a scholar. An informed person on curriculum. I was interested in it. I did quite a bit of reading and so on. Now I maybe should go back at this point to explain that. My first big job when I came in 1919 was to edit the catalog that was being prepared for the next academic year and I began at that time to get 79:00acquainted with the curriculum of the institution as printed in the catalog and so on. Well, when this the middle of the '20's began and we began to have these controversies then I became more and more informed of various things pertaining to curriculum. The Board of Higher Curricula was in charge and I began to know because of defending things that we asked what our curriculum field properly was although I didn't know at that time about these seven words that I've spoken of as being neglected. I didn't realize that. I just knew that educationally we 80:00needed to have good first class work in humanities and social sciences. We needed it but in terms of whether we should have degrees degree granting privileges in those fields I didn't know at that time that that was something that we could have been asking for and probably should have been asking for. But we were just asking for the right to give the courses we needed in those fields. Well, I read the survey of the land grant institutions that was published about 1929 and I read the report of the Oregon Survey Commission which was published a little later.

About the same time however and then I and began to, well, I was a member of the 81:00Course Division Committee as it was called. They put me on first because I was editing the catalog. Then later they put me on as a convenience because it helped them in getting the catalog out for me to know what was happening in this course revision committee. What was the background of things we asked for and what we were going to ask for and what ultimately did we get and so and later I became secretary of this course revision committee and so it wasn't called curriculum yet but it was concerned with curriculum. Course revision is revision of curriculum. Well, during the '20's then I was kind of being, as 82:00part of my duties, developing myself as an informed person on curricula matters and long after this catalog came out this unified catalog and it was known on the campus here that what the new program was and that I knew quite a bit about it. I was asked by, you have talked to Dean Lemon, Dean Lemon was not dean then he was registrar but he was in charge he was a member of the administrative council. We didn't have a faculty senate at that time and the Administrative Council was really the institutional senate because it made all of the decisions 83:00subject to the approval of the president and that council had and Mr. Lemon was a member of it. They had asked him to arrange, a number of talks, to inform the members of the curriculum committee of the Administrative Council on areas of higher education that they needed to know more about and particularly the newer aspects in terms of the state system and so along there Mr. Lemmon asked me to come prepared at a specified date to talk to the Administrative Council on the curriculum of Oregon State. And that's what I talked about. I had this 84:00background but I didn't tell them about the state system excepting that the state system program involved the development at Corvallis of a great School of Science which we were starting and I made quite a bit of the School of Science and it's relation to the other schools on the campus and their relation to it. Wall, I did a lot of work preparing that talk. I went to the library and I took out about 40 books, carried them in my arms from the library over, and examined them to find out things that I didn't know and to get quotations that I could make use of that could say things so it wouldn't be from me. It would be 85:00from disinterested people. So, I gave quite a talk. I was asked afterwards to prepare that talk for publication but I never really did. I think I have a copy of it though.

JL: Hmmm.

DG: Somewhere. Well, then I began to take myself more seriously then I did because here I was being asked to talk to this rather august body, the Administrative Council over which the president of the institution presided and which made all decisions under the president for the institution and I had been 86:00asked to talk to them, as if I had something to tell them that they could use. Well, that was about 1933 or '4, somewhere along there and that was about the time about 1934 that I had been elected to Phi Kappa Phi as a faculty member in recognition of what I had been doing in connection with the instituting of this new state system of higher education particularly in terms of our institution. Now a thing that I did that was of great value to Oregon State in editing that catalog was to work out a plan for the catalog which really had a basis in 87:00this poster that I referred to that the board had every single one of them, approved. This was their program. That was published in May of 1932. I planned the catalog. I consulted the registrar, who was assistant to the president, executive secretary of the University of Oregon to ask him what the universities attitude would be. I said, "What would you think of organizing this unified catalog with first of all a section devoted to liberal arts and sciences then a section for professional schools?" And he said, "I think the university would, as it was called then, would like that. So, I went ahead and 88:00that catalog you'll find if you consult it if you look at The Oregon State University catalog right now you'll see it is organized in that same way. Liberal arts and sciences then professional schools. Well, that meant that liberal arts and sciences were presented in this catalog, this unified catalog and all subsequent catalogs, with work in liberal arts and sciences offered at Oregon State. Lower division was part of liberal arts and sciences. School of Sciences was part of liberal arts and sciences. So, was the School of Arts and Letters and the School of Social Sciences at The University of Oregon. They were all under this appropriately designated at Corvallis, at Eugene and elsewhere.

89:00

Well, that introduced in sharp contrast to the way we had been compelled all through the '20's to play down anything even remotely suggestive of liberal arts, to play down! We weren't supposed to have liberal arts but here we have liberal arts given to us by The State Board of Higher Education. Two phases, a lower division the same kind of lower division work that they were supposed to have at University of Oregon and on the other campuses and a degree granting School of Science offering baccalaureate and advanced degrees up to the Dr. of Philosophy. Well, I had done that part of my duty but it was really quite a 90:00contribution to Oregon State as such that if I had been clumsy or had manipulated to the damage of Oregon State might have been sort of submerged. This perhaps ought not to be on this tape. You can blue pencil it when you come to it. A designing University of Oregon editor might have handled things differently to our damage but I did have that advantage and, of course, Oregon State did a lot in lending me for this what was essentially a system function 91:00and I did it in terms with the system. Anyway, I think, that was one reason the fact that I kind of distinguished myself as an able editor of this unified catalog, which was a big, not only a big book but a big job. I think, that along with other things, I trust, that caused Phi Kappa Phi to elect me to membership and that encouraged ire. I felt I was being recognized. Well, in the spring of 1936, right in the middle of the depression, Stanford I had begun to think about graduate work. I had graduated at Minnesota in 1916 and I had done no graduate work. 20 years had gone by but I began to think maybe I should. I'm being taken as an authority talking to The Administrative Council 92:00made up of deans as if I had something to say to them and maybe I'd better prepare myself so I can kind of feel as if I'm equipped to talk to them, Or, fit myself. Make myself a real curriculum authority if I'm talking about curriculum as if I were an authority, I should make myself an authority.

And Stanford, in that spring, announced a one week conference at Stanford on curriculum and guidance. It was in the general field of curriculum and guidance but that word curriculum attracted my notice and I thought, well, maybe I could go to that. It happened that at that time I was a veteran of World War 93:00I and there had been talk for about a decade and a half, you know about what was called a soldier's bonus. To give a bonus to the veterans of World War I and, of course, it wasn't an easy thing to do and the whole country was in a depression. But, they finally did vote a bonus to World War I veterans. I presume in 1936 partly because they desperately needed some help. They were in the depression like everybody else and it wasn't much but you got a little more if you, for the time you spent overseas and about half of my time when I was in uniform was in France, so I got a little pocket money. That bonus and it 94:00would be enough...

DG: If you attended that conference and submitted a paper on some aspect of curriculum or guidance you could get one graduate credit. If you stayed a total of five weeks at Stanford including this one week of the conference you could earn five additional credits. Six counting the one you'd get for the conference So here was a chance to get some graduate credits and start my graduate study. And I went. I told you awhile back that I was married meanwhile and I had a wife and our boy was just approaching four years old. He 95:00was three years old. And we had a new car. The first car we had and we drove down there and attended that conference and I stayed for five weeks, using my vacation time and earned not only the six credits that were promised but one of my papers that I submitted earned a seventh. The quarter was ten or 11 weeks but you attended class for five weeks and then you would submit a paper or somehow get your additional credit through something else. Work that you would do afterwards and so I submitted a paper that I worked months on and Dr. Eel, under whom I took my work, I took two courses down there. One of them was on 96:00improving college instruction and the other one was on junior college. On improving instruction I wrote a paper on individualization at the college level and I'd worked hard on it. It was long and quite impressive apparently because Dr. Eel gave me an additional credit. Just gave me an additional credit. I don't think anyone would or could do it here. But, he did. It went through and I earned a total of seven credits on the basis of my five weeks at Stanford, plus the work that I did after the residents. Well, that was quite encouraging. I was on my way then to start doing graduate work.

97:00

JL: Before we continue on with your life I wanted to ask you more about that very difficult period of time during 1932 to '4 when there was no president at the institution here.

DG: Yes, well to get into the record some things about the effect on faculty, but, well, when there was no president. Commencement and there were commencements the spring of 1932 the president of, oh, no, not1932. In 1932 Dr. Kerr was still president of Oregon State and Dr. Hall was still president at University of Oregon and those commencements were held as usual but the next 98:00year, the next year there were no presidents because Dr. Kerr in September resigned to become chancellor and Dr. Hall had already resigned because the institutions weren't supposed to have presidents then. He got an opportunity in the Brookings Institution in Washington, D.C. and departed. So, University of Oregon had no president, neither did Oregon State. In...

JL: Who made the administrative decisions?

DG: What?

JL: Who made the decisions?

DG: The executive secretary, W.A. Jensen, after whom the gates down at 11th St. are named was the only key person in the president's office after Dr. Kerr 99:00actually moved to Eugene and so Mr. Jensen ran the office. However, The Administrative Council, of course, was called on a great deal and Dean Peavy who was the senior dean presided over The Administrative Council but he had not, as yet, been named president. So, there was an interim when the institution was Dr. Kerr, of course, was down at Eugene. I don't know whether he'd resigned as president or not. Maybe he became chancellor and continued as president. I don't believe it's that. I'd have to check on that, but anyway, he wasn't here. He was down at Eugene and although he used to come here and he'd be called up and all that. Mr. Jensen carried a very heavy load.

100:00

JL: Was he a capable man?

DG: He was a very dedicated man and although he didn't hold any college degree he was given an honorary Master's Degree in order to keep him on the staff at all , because during that time when they were chopping heads off all through the state system why his head would have been chopped off because he didn't have a degree, but in an emergency, in the spring of 1932 there was, I think it was, action taken to give him an honorary Master's Degree so he had a degree. And he deserved something like that because he had carried heavy and important responsibilities through many years, under Dr. Kerr. Well, he did quite 101:00well He really did quite well. Of course, he used the deans and he used our office. He unloaded some of the work of the president's office and on our office taking care of faculty that we needed to do in connection with the catalog. He put the faculty files entirely in our charge. Confidential files about, for instance, one woman a few years later came to me while we had those files. She had to establish her birthdate. It was time for her to retire and she wanted to retire but she told me, she said, when I came here I gave my age ten years less than it was because if I had given my real age I never would have been 102:00appointed. At least I believed so and how could she qualify now for retirement she was 65, I guess it was, and according to the records she was only 55. Well, I said, and she came to me because the records were in our office, at that time. I said, "Well, I should think the way to handle that is it's an error in the records. We'll correct the records. You called attention to the fact the record is off." And it seemed to work. I never heard anything more about it.

JL: (Chuckle)

DG: Correcting the records. She retired all right. Well, what is it you want. Oh, well, Mr. Jensen carried a very heavy, a very heavy, load and matter of fact his own health broke down ultimately because until there was a president 103:00he had everything and can you turn it off a few minutes? Did a noble service during the period when he was the only one in the office. Well, now, of course our faculty during the depression right in the budget for 1932 and '3 dropped many people. Many people. Everyone who didn't have any kind of tenure was just dropped to save money. They DIDN"T HAVE the money. They HAD to save the money, but they could have and it was actually proposed that they reduce all 104:00salaries in order not to lose so many people. Let all of us work and I worked harder during the depression because of these particular duties that came to me than I've ever worked before or since. But, many people were going to be thrown out of work entirely and anyway the board decided they must not reduce salaries although they ultimately did it. They worked out a way to do that but they dropped lots of people and, as I say, there was lots of terrible misfortune inflicted on faculty people at a time when things were just about as bad as 105:00they could be.

JL: I read that there was greater unity among the faculty, the students, and the alumni then ever before in Oregon State College's history during that time.

DG: What?

JL: I read that there was greater unity among the faculty, the students, and the alumni than any other time in Oregon State Universities history?

DG: Well, I presume that's true. Yes. I wouldn't question it.

JL: Hmmm.

DG: They were drawn together for various things. The years of the depression in terms of curriculum and Oregon State were very eventful years which I don't think we'd better go into today but let me go into how they handled this salary business. They had, finally, worked out a plan where for the people who were 106:00on the faculty you had a basic salary. But, you were paid only a percentage of that basic salary so your salary base as they called it, wasn't reduced but your actual salary was reduced and that was done to keep more people on the payroll. And then later the scheme was so we all had our salaries reduced, in effect. Then later there was a plan worked out whereby there would be voluntary deduction from our pay to provide a fund to provide paid work for people who didn't have jobs and that was, I suppose, correlated with federal programs for 107:00people. People of great ability who didn't have jobs. At the entrance of Kidder Hall there are doors with elaborate grill design. Metal design that were made under a federal program to give skilled craftsmen something to do where they could earn money and there are in the entrance of Bexell Hall and of what is now, what is the name of the hall where English is, it has a name now?

108:00

JL: The forestry building?

DG: The old forestry building it has a name. Well, anyway that building has wood murals just like the entrance of Bexell. Those were done similarly and those gates down at 11th St., those elaborate gates were done in federal schemes mostly to give paid occupation to skilled people who were in sad condition. Well, this fund that was provided by the payroll deductions was for some kind of help. I don't know just who got it and so forth but it was to provide occupation. Maybe on the state payroll for people for whom there wouldn't have been any money under the ordinary. But, we had two deductions. One was a 109:00deduction so that our real salary was only a percentage of our base salary. Our higher base salary and then our reduced salary on a basis of our voluntary authorizations to deduct so much from our salary to go to this special fund.

JL: Hmmm.