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Stanley Bishoprick Oral History Interview, May 14, 1985

Oregon State University

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0:00

JL: Well, Mr. Bishoprick, I understand you were born in Skagway, Alaska. . .

SB: Right..

JL:.. in 1904.

SB: May 2nd, 1904.

JL: Okay, you just had a birthday then, huh?

SB: Right (laugh)

JL: Okay, how did your family happen to be in Skagway, Alaska?

SB: My uncle was the chief engineer when they built the White Pass and Yukon Railway. And he got my grandfather to come up and be the storekeeper for the railway; and, of course, my mother went up with him, (and) the rest of the family, you see, two or three of them.

JL: With your grandfather, she went...

SB: Yeah, right, in 1897-98.

JL: So she was a teenager then, or . . .

SB: Well, she was, let's see, she was born in '78.

JL: Oh, so she was in her 20's? Oh!

SB: Yeah.

JL: Okay. So, let's see, and your uncle. . .

SB: Then she became a school teacher up there.

JL: What was your uncle's name?

1:00

SB: Van Cleeve, John Van Cleeve. He also built the Copper River Line. That's in Alaska, too. And he was Jim Hill's chief engineer when he built the Northern Pacific across the plains to the Pacific Coast.

JL: Is that right? How did he hear about the job in Skagway?

SB: I don't know. I don't know.

JL: Did you meet your uncle?

SB: Oh, yes, I know him, very well.

JL: What kind of a man...

SB: 'Cause after he retired he came down to Portland and lived, and that's after I moved down there, so I know them, real well.

JL: What kind of man was he?

SB: Well, I should have brought his picture along, but I didn't (laugh) Yeah. Oh, he was very good! And his children, Charlotte, and John, and Margaret, Margaret was my secretary at work for years until she died with, what is it--Sclerosis?

2:00

JL: I don't know.

SB: kinda goes this way. . .

JL: Parkinson's disease does that.

SB: Yeah, Parkinson's disease. And, my, her sister, who was born in 1898 is Charlotte Van Cleeve, and she's , her name is McEwan, now, because she married Ray McEwan, down in Coos Bay, who is a doctor down there. And they lived down there now, he's retired, and. . .

JL: Now, let's see, back to the Alaska, though, your mother went with your grandfather..

SB: Uh huh.

JL: Was your grandmother alive at the time?

SB: Yes.

JL: So, did she have any sisters and brothers that went up there?

SB: No. My mother did. Morris. Brother Morris went up there, and he became an 3:00engineer on the White Pass and Yukon Railway, locomotive engineer. And then Arthur was another brother, and then her sister went up there, and she married John Van Cleeve.

JL: Oh. Cousins? Okay.

SB: So . . .

JL: Did your mother and grandparents ever talk about their experience up there in Skagway I've been there, and it's quite a place, in fact, it's attractive scenery, but the weather is not very nice.

SB: Well, in winter time (laugh)

JL: Well, it's windy in the summer, isn't it?

SB: Yeah, it is, but the moisture rainfall there is not bad. Only about forty 4:00inches, and you go down to Juneau, it's about 100. So just a little way down the Linn(?) Canal, you know.

JL: But your mother liked it up in Skagway.

SB: Yes, she did.

JL: Who did she teach?

SB: She taught in the school there.

JL: Grade school?

SB: Grade school. And then, my dad built a sawmill in Skagway. He was a prospector in the old days, and he carried the mail from Whitehorse to Dawson, no, yeah, from Whitehorse up north, and clear up onto the Yukon River, I forget the name of the place he went. Fort something, way up on the Mackenzie River. And. . .

JL: How did your father and mother meet each other?

SB: After he was in Skagway as a, started to build his sawmill there.

5:00

JL: He stopped being a prospector?

SB: Yeah, he made money enough in the prospecting to build the sawmill.

JL: Well, now, tell me about that. He went, did he go on the Chilcood Pass, then, or..

SB: Oh yeah, uh huh.

JL: Can you remember, did he talk to you about that, or can you tell me anything about it?

SB: I don't know anything about it, other than he'd make two round trips. . . Fort Norman on the Mackenzie. That's where he went.

JL: Okay.

SB: And he'd make two round trips a year with dog teams with the mail for up there.

JL: So he, after he was a prospector he was a mailman?

SB: Yeah.

JL: And so he'd go around to settlements with his dog team?

SB: Yeah.

JL: I bet he had some adventures.

SB: (laugh) Yeah, I think so. And then I took a job in 1922 carrying the mail from Whitehorse to Dawson.

6:00

JL: You did?!

SB: Yeah. Driving an old Packard four. Oh my!

JL: Wait! I want to hear about that.

SB: (laugh)

JL: What's with this? In my chronology you're not born yet.

SB: (laugh)

JL: Well, let's see, your mother taught school to the prospector's children.

SB: Well, and to the people that live d in Skagway. A lot of them weren't prospectors. They were storekeepers, and all kinds of people worked for the railroad, so forth and so on, worked with steam ship lines . . .

JL: What about any Native Americans? Eskimo's, or any . . . did she talk , did she know any of those, or teach any of those?

SB: Well . . . not to my knowledge. There weren't any Eskimos in Skagway. There were some down at Ha- not Eskimos, but they were Indians down in Hayes, there were Klinkets. And there were the odd Indian in Skagway, but nothing to amount 7:00to anything.

JL: Okay. Have you been back there since . . . the National Park Service?

SB: Oh, yeah, I've been back there a lot of times. I've got a 56 foot schooner and I go up to Alaska quite often. And I've been clear out the Aleutian Islands as far as Atoo. You know where Atoo is? It's the farthest island out and then up into to Bearing Sea as far as the Tribleoffs [unintelligible] And there's my boat. That's Honolulu and Diamond Head Hawaiian Islands in the back ground.

JL: Gorgeous.

SB: I've sailed it 56,000 miles.

JL: In this "schooner", you call it?

SB: I built it myself.

JL: Is that right?? You are talented.

SB: No, no! (laugh)

JL: Well, not many people could build a schooner like that!

8:00

SB: Well, I've been all up the Aleutian Islands and the Bearing Sea with it. And I just love to go up to the Aleutian Islands! Because there's streams and streams in those islands, and never had a fish hook in them, and the trout fishing is beyond belief! But, there's one thing it's very, very bad. In the summer time 70 to 75 percent of the time there's pea soup fog. And you just can't see. Otherwise, it's great. But they just happen to be at a place where they get the fog all the time in the summer.

JL: Well, don't tell too many people though, or it'll be inundated with fishermen, (laugh) Well, let's see so, your grandfather, why did your grandparents pull up roots from . . . where were they from anyway?

SB: From Illinois.

JL: Illinois. Why did they pull up roots and go all the way to Alaska? That was kinda an adventurous place to go.

SB: Well, my uncle brought them up there. I guess my aunt Clara, that was 9:00Uncle John Van Cleeve's wife's name. She was a daughter of my grandparents. They were married back in Minnesota. 'Cause they lived in Minnesota and in Illinois, and so when John Van Cleeve went to Alaska on White Pass, Yukon, then my grandfather and grandmother and the three children went up to, you see. He invited them up, too.

JL: Hmm. He was a store keeper in Illinois, your grandfather was.

SB: I don't. . . I don't remember what he was. I think he was a school teacher.

JL: A school teacher.

SB: Yeah.

JL: Can you remember your parents, grandparents talking about any of the people that they met, or any of the incidences, or anything?

SB: No, I can't.

JL: How they got supplies up there?

10:00

SB: No. No. I was just a kid.

JL: Okay. So then your parents got married in Skagway, and then you were born. Were you the first child?

SB: Yes, I was born in Skagway.

JL: And do you have other brothers and sisters?

SB: I did have, but I've lost them. And one of my brothers lived up here at Woodburn. And I lost him two years ago. He died of cancer. He was a chain smoker, just terrible. And the other one was a chain smoker, also Lived in San Francisco. And he died about, oh, seven years ago, I guess six, seven years ago.

JL: These were younger brothers.

SB: Yeah.

JL: Younger brothers.

SB: I never smoked one in my life.

JL: Do you have any sisters?

SB: No. No sisters. There were just three boys.

JL: Three boys? Okay. So, then what happened? Why did they decide to move to 11:00Portland Why did your father and mother decide to move to Portland?

SB: Well, they didn't. They moved down to ... my dad was a Canadian. He was not an American citizen, he was a Canadian. So he moved down to Vancouver British Columbia and worked in a saw mill there for a while.

JL: And that's what he had done before he went up to Alaska in the first place?

SB: Yeah. And so he decided to go up Frazier River about up by Sardis, British Columbia. And homestead some land, which he did. And it was all covered with fresh timber, worth a million today. They just cut it down and burned it in those days, so he could make a farm out of it. (laugh) And so, there wasn't any other. . . we were quite a ways from town. And , when my brother was born 12:00up there, I remember when he was born, my youngest one, my second one was born in Skagway, but my youngest one was born in British Columbia.

JL: Near Sardis.

SB: Right. Well, it was out of there. And . . .

JL: Now, why did he go there now? To Sardis?

SB: To homestead some land.

JL: But he had heard about this place.

SB: Yeah, yeah. So, there was no trains in those days, you went up by boat, up the river. Up the, the, uh, oh, what's that river that comes into Vancouver? The Frazier River! And, we lived there until I was about. . . well, we lived in Alaska, until I was about five. And we came down there and I lived there 13:00till I was about ten or eleven. And . . .

JL: What do you remember about Alaska, then, what, you lived there until you were about five. Do you have any recollections of that time?

SB: Oh yeah. I can remember picnics we went on, and, I should have brought my pictures along and showed them to you (laugh).

JL: Was it quite a cohesive group of people . . .

SB: Yes, very. So, anyway, when my brother was born, my mother said she'd never seen another white woman for eighteen months. Another white man. We were way away from any other homestead. It was a long ways away The Indian people, yes. So when my brother was born, she called two Indian ladies to help her 14:00with the birth.

JL: Is that right?

SB: Yep, uh huh. Cause it would have taken the team and horse, it would have taken about twelve hours to drive into the nearest town, where a doctor would be.

JL: How did she like living out so far?

SB: Well, far as I know, she liked it all right.

JL: But the only friends that you could, that a person could have in that area would be Indians.

SB: Yeah. So, then, after he homesteaded, my father raised peas. And he sold them to the coffee merchants in Vancouver B C, and they'd roast the peas, and mix them with the coffee.

JL: Peas?!!

SB: Yeah. And it was done down here in Oregon after we moved down there, too.

JL: Good heavens! (laugh)

SB: (laugh)

JL: Peas doesn't taste like coffee!

15:00

SB: Yeah, but mixed in I guess, after they're roasted, why, I guess, maybe they do, I don't know. I never drank a cup of coffee in my life.

JL: Oh!

SB: (laugh) So we came down to . . .

JL: Well, so, wait a minute. He didn't log for a living then?

SB: No, He logged. . . there wasn't any place he could sell the logs, so he burned them.

JL: So he burned them, and, so what he did for a living was to grow peas.

SB: Yeah.

JL: For the coffee growers. Okay.

SB: So, then we moved down to Vancouver BC, and he got back into the saw mill again.

JL: Why did they move? Do you know why?

SB: I don't know, I just don't know. And, before we left, up at Sardis, my brother and I heard a noise on the road out there, in front of our place. And we dashed out, and here was a car--first car I'd ever seen in my life. And it was a Cadillac. A 1910 Cadillac, (laugh) And, it came into our place. He 16:00took my mother and father for a ride in it, and us kids, too. So, we had a ride in it. (laugh)

JL: Oh! That must have been fun.

SB: So then we moved down to Vancouver again. And my uncle had a store in Vancouver - a grocery store, and my dad worked there for a while, then he got a job in a saw mill. And, I went to school there in Vancouver, then. But, before that, my mother had been teaching me. So I only went to four years of grammar school in my life. The rest of the time I was taught at home.

JL: Oh, my gosh. You got a further education in college, so you must have had a good foundation from your mother.

17:00

SB: Yeah, and . . .

JL: Do you really have any feelings of . . . what did you think of being in Sardis . . Sardis?

SB: Sardis?

JL: As a young boy, were you lonely?

SB: Nope, never.

JL: What kind of things did you do?

SB: Oh, we'd play around on the farm, there, and work on the farm, one thing and another like that.

JL: You had animals there, too?

SB: Oh, yeah, we had cattle.

JL: Cattle.

SB: And horses, and, we'd go on picnics up to Culdus Lake, which is just above there.

JL: You'd help your father on the farm?

SB: Yeah. And, so, in about 1916, we moved down to Oregon. No, about 1913, 18:00or 14, we moved down to Oregon, and my dad got a job in a saw mill at Bridal Veil. Bridal Veil Timber Company. And. . .

JL: That was what he preferred, is logging, or working in the mills over anything else?

SB: Yeah. And he was, my dad was always one of these individuals that the other side of the hill was always greener, so, we never stayed anywhere very long. He was always restless.

JL: And your mother, also, was like that?

SB: Well, she stayed with him most of the time, except the last few years, he started going other places, and so she had a place rented, and, so, he'd come back every few weeks or so, and go back again to the job he'd taken elsewhere. And, I went to school until 1917. I started working in Bridal Veil Timber 19:00Company in the saw mill.

JL: What were you doing there?

SB: I soon became the head lumber grader. I was just a kid.

JL: Yeah, you would have been. . .1917 . . . thirteen...

SB: I was thirteen years old. Yeah.

JL: Well, 1917 you were thirteen, right?

SB: Yeah.

JL: Now, how'd you get into that position?

SB: Well, my dad was the foreman of the mill (laugh) And it wasn't long until I was the lumber grader, and the head lumber grader. I was there three years after he left.

JL: After your father left?

SB: Yeah. My grandmother and grandfather, my grandfather was working in the mill there, too.

JL: Your grandfather?? This was on your mother's side?

SB: Yes. Mother's.

JL: He moved from Skagway, then, down to . . .

SB: Yeah, because all the work was done up at Skagway, and he wanted to come back down to the states, and so he came down.

JL: Now, what do you mean that all the work was done there?

20:00

SB: Well, the railroad was all completely built.

JL: And, so. . .

SB: And, so, he decides as long as the rest of the relatives are moving out of the area, he'd move out, too.

JL: Sounds like he was a wanderer, also.

SB: Well, somewhat, yes. So, anyway, . . .

JL: Now, Lucy told me . . .excuse me for interrupting, Lucy told me that you became a head grader?

SB: Head grader, yes, lumber grader in the saw mill.

JL: You had to prove yourself.

SB: Oh yeah, yeah. And, then, the DuBois', and the Brick's bought the saw mill, and they send Bob DuBois, who was going to Stanford, and just my age, at the time, in about 1922, five years later. 1922 or 23. 1922. And he bought 21:00the mill, and Bob, he and I became awfully good friends. He died about five, six years ago. He lived over in Vancouver. And . . .

JL: So, he was your boss, then.

SB: No, he wasn't. He was just, just a workman there.

JL: He was working there also.

SB: Yeah. And, so, all summer long he wanted to know, "Haven't you been to school?' I've had four years of school, and never been to high school. "Well, you ought to go to school" I said, "What do I want to go to school for?" I says, "I got a sail boat, I got a motorcycle, what do I need any more for? Go fishing weekends, it's all I need. I don't need anything else." "you ought to go to school". So he kept talking to me that way, all the time. So, in 22:00September, he quit and went back to Stanford.

JL: Now why. . .he was just being a good friend.

SB: Yeah.

JL: It was best for you to go to school, that's why he was asking.

SB: Yeah. He'd been a good friend, all his life, with me. And, his wife is now a good friend of mine, too.

JL: Okay.

SB: And, so, after he quit, I got to thinking. Well, maybe I ought to go to school. So, there was no way I could go to high school in Bridal Veil, so, I had to eat, so I had to get a job, somewhere else, so I could work nights, and go to high school daytimes. So, I quit. And came into Portland. And, my mother had moved into Portland, and she was working in the market. And, . . .

23:00

JL: A grocery market?

SB: No, a farmers market. Down there in Yamhill street. And . . .

JL: And your father was someplace else?

SB: Yeah, he was up, he went up to Prince Rupert as manager of the saw mill up there for a while, then he went to another place as manager of a saw mill, then he'd come home, and back, and forth, you know (laugh).

JL: And, so, what was your goal for going back to school? What were you thinking of?

SB: Well, Bob DuBois had told me I'd better. Said "You just got to get to school." So, I came into Portland, and I was reading the want-ads in the paper, and they wanted a lumber grader down Eastern-Western. Lumber company. So, I went down there to see the manager. Went in there, he sat like this. Looked at me, he said, "Son, where did you ever grade lumber?" I said--'cause I didn't; I was just eighteen years old, and I hadn't shaved yet, because I 24:00didn't have any whiskers. So, I looked just like a kid, you see. I said Bridal Veil Timber Company. He says, "How much they cut?" I said 125,000 a day. "You couldn't handle this job. We cut 350,000 a day" I said I could. "No, you couldn't." So, we argued for quite a little while. Afterwards, he became a very good friend of mine. And, so, finally he says, "I tell you what you do. You go up and tell the day grader to give you a chance." This was for a night shift job. This is about 10:30 in the morning. Said, "I'll come up at 3:30 and see what he says." So, I said okay! So, I went up there and I spent about a half hour learning the marks and the grading rules, and everything else that they were using. And, the day grader climbed up on a pile of lumber behind me and sat there and watched me, all day. 3:30 I saw the manager come 25:00up, and I saw the day grader nod his head, so, I knew I had the job. (laugh)

JL: Uh huh, you'd proved yourself, then, huh?

SB: (laugh) So, I worked there for five years nights, while I went to high school day times.

JL: When did you sleep?!

SB: In between.

JL: Not very long!

SB: Yeah. The night shift started at 3:45, and it got off at half past twelve. Or something like that, about that, 'round midnight, one o'clock. And, so, I worked there, I was the grader there until I'd finished high school, then I decided I'd have to go to college.

JL: Now, why, why? What were you thinking. . . ?

26:00

SB: Well, 'cause Bob DuBois told me, I ought to go to school.

JL: But, what were you thinking in your mind that you would do with your degrees?

SB: I didn't. I had no idea. And, I thought, "Well, he said you can't get anywhere unless you have an education." So, I was . . .

JL: And, you could see that for yourself, then?

SB: Yeah. So, I, after five years working there, and I'd saved all the money I possibly could, went down to Oregon State Agricultural College, in those days, Oregon Agricultural College. At Corvallis, here.

JL: Now, you came here because you were in Oregon . . .

SB: Yeah, and, so, I started here then, and then I'd go a year, and work a year, and go a year and work a year, and go a year, and work a year,

'til I finished in '34. I was thirty years old when I finished.

27:00

JL: You were quite a bit older than the rest of the students, then, I imagine.

SB: Oh yeah. And, at the church I go to, over in Vancouver, at home there in Vancouver, where I live, there's five men, in that church that were all here with me together, in college. And, I'm on the Portland Chamber of Commerce's' Forestry Committee, and on that committee, there's five more, that we were in college together.

JL: Is that right?!

SB: Yeah (laugh)

JL: Gee, so many stayed in Oregon!

SB: Right (laugh)

JL: In the area, anyway!

SB: Then, I got married down here, in 1928.

JL: Now, how did you meet your wife, and who was she?

SB: Well, Polling Hall, we were living in Polling Hall, and that day it was an old building, from left over from a World War Two barracks.

28:00

JL: Okay. World War Two?

SB: Yeah, World War One barracks. And, then, so, they were going to tear the Polling Hall down, and we had to move out. So, what we did, we a got together and decided we'd rent a house, and do our own cooking and one thing another. So, we went down here on 10th street, and, we rented a house.

JL: These were friends of yours . . .

SB: All in Polling Hall together.

JL: Gosh, that was a lot of students.

SB: Right. Right. So, there was about 20 of us, I guess. So, Cora's mother, my wife's mother, after we moved in, she came over there one day, and she said, "Would you boys like to come over to my house and eat your meals over there? The price would be very reasonable." She indicated what it was, and I 29:00forget what it was, but, it was really good, so . ..

JL: And, she lived near this 10th Street house?

SB: Just a block away.

JL: Oh, and these were all men that were in the house.

SB: Yeah, right.

SB: So, we decided to try it. So, we did. We went down there, and we had our meals, breakfast, and dinner at night. And, lunch, we didn't, we ate wherever we happened to be. And, Cora was working, she was waiting on the tables, while we were eating, and that's where I met her.

JL: Oh, and what's her full name?

SB: Cora Trapman was her name.

JL: Trapman? And, so, she wasn't a student here at OAC.

SB: No, she was just in her teens, (laugh)

JL: Oh, so you met her . . .

SB: And, she went to school for four years after we were married.

JL: Here at OAC?

SB: No, she didn't go to OAC. She was going to high school.

30:00

JL: Oh!

SB: So, she went to high school, while I was going to college, well, she went to high school.

JL: Okay, and then, let's see. . . I'm going to ask more about your experiences in the School of Forestry. What, now, you came in 1927 , and you were much older than the normal student, for that time.

SB: Sure, because I hadn't, I'd been working getting my high school education, you see.

JL: Right. And your goal was to get, always through out your schooling, your goal was to get a Forestry Degree?

SB: Yeah, Forestry, because I was in the lumber business, you see.

JL: And your father had been . . .

S: Right.

JL: Okay, and then, you came down here, and what were your impressions of the campus? Do you have any recollections?

SB: Oh, I thought . . . let's see, in those days, there was about . . .

31:00

JL: Let me turn the tape over.

SB: In the whole Oregon State Agricultural College, in the whole college, in those days, there was about 1200 students--that was the total population of the school, 1200. Then in the Spring Term, that would be down to 8 or 900.

JL: In the Spring Term?

SB: Yeah, because they didn't have money enough to go all year, you see. So, they'd go maybe two terms, and, only some of them, three terms. Well, I didn't want to borrow any money, so, I'd go a year, then I'd work a year, then I'd go a year, then I'd work a year.

JL: Why didn't you want to borrow any money?

SB: 'Cause . . .Today I don't like to borrow any money. I don't owe any money today. I won't borrow any.

JL: Even on your house?

SB: No.

JL: Is that right? You own your house, outright, huh?

SB: I won't use a credit card.

JL: Is that something from . . . you picked up from your parents?

SB: I got that from my father and my grandfather, both.

32:00

JL: Oh. They never borrowed any, huh? Gee, in this day in age we all borrow money.

SB: (laugh) Yeah, but, I don't think they should.

JL: Why is that?

SB: 'Cause I think they should go a year, work a year, go a year, work a year, and do it that way.

JL: And that worked out . . .?

SB: Yeah. Of course, it takes you longer to go through, but, okay.

JL: What did you do between . . . what kind of . . . what job did you have?

SB: I worked in various saw mills.

JL: And, were you a grader always, then?

SB: No. Whatever I could do to . . . any kind of job I could get with the sawmill.

JL: Boy, your body must have been very strong during those times when you were working in the sawmill. Takes a lot of strength.

SB: In those days you worked ten hours a day, not eight.

JL: Five days a week?

SB: Six days a week.

JL: What did you like about . . . did you call yourself a logger, or?

SB: No, sawmill worker.

33:00

JL: Sawmill worker. What did you like about working in the sawmill?

SB: Well, I was just used to lumber, that's all. I knew how to do it, and that was it. (laugh)

JL: What did your mother think about you going back in high school, and then to college? Was she . . .

SB: She thought that was a good idea, too.

JL: And, your father, also?

SB: Yeah.

JL: Okay, so you came here and studied . . . Okay, what do you recall about the school of Forestry here, the College of Forestry? Do you remember any of the professors . . .

SB: George Peavy was the president of the school.

JL: Later . . .

SB: President of Oregon . . . president of the school of Forestry. After wards he became president of the college.

JL: Dean, he was dean.

SB: He was dean of the school of Forestry. Yeah.

JL: Did you know him?

SB: I knew him very well. Yeah. And when I came down here to go to school, 34:00everybody had to interview the dean. You couldn't enter the school of Forestry without interviewing the dean. So, one of the things he said, "What about sports? Are you a baseball player, or a soccer player, or a football player?" I said no, 'cause if they were, he wouldn't let them in the school of Forestry.

JL: He wouldn't let them in if they were in sports?!

SB: No, they had to be strictly in there for school, not for anything else.

JL: Did you know that before you answered?

SB: No (laugh)

JL: (laugh) Oh, boy! What other kinds of questions did he ask, or . . .

SB: I don't remember (laugh) what the other questions were.

JL: Well, can you tell me about him, what you recall about . . .

SB: Oh, I ... he and I became good friends, too, and I just really t thought the world of George Peavy. Yeah. He was good.

35:00

JL: And, what about . . .

SB: TJ Starker was a prof then.

JL: Yeah. What. . . can you recall about him?

SB: TJ? Well, takin' a course from TJ in surveying and, we had to run a line up the arboretum, it had to be a mile and a half long, I think it was. And then, come back in and check in on the place where you started. And, if your calculations were correct, your compass bearings were correct, you'd check in at exactly the same spot that you started. So, anyway, I came back to the place where I should have started, I thought, couldn't find the stake where we 36:00started-there wasn't any stake there. So, I drove one in the ground, and thought, "Well, see what I can, see if I can find it around here anywhere." And, I was looking all around for it, pretty soon, in the brush I heard someone laugh. TJ stepped out of the brush, and he'd pulled the stake out to see if you'd do it right, (laugh)

JL: Oh . . .He was testing . . .

SB: I only missed it by six inches.

JL: My!

SB: He showed me the hole, where it was. (laugh)

JL: So, you became friends with him?

SB: Oh, yeah, I was a good friend of TJ's.

JL: Did you become ... he probably was about your age. . . .

SB: No, TJ was older than I was.

JL: He was older . . . because he came to OSU . . .

SB: Yeah, he was a prof then.

JL: That's right. In 1907 he was a student. Well, being an older student, did you have a . . . could you see a difference in the way you reacted to things, or 37:00treated, or anything?

SB: Uh uh. No.

JL: Do you remember any of the traditions of the, in that school of Forestry?

SB: Oh. I don't remember any of the traditions, but, I ended up the, one of the highest grades for my years down here in school. I think I had a 94.6 grade average for the full time, average. And, I won a scholarship to Yale University. Two year scholarship. And, I turned it down. And, my wife was so disappointed, she wanted me to take it. I said no! because, if I took it, I'd have to come back here and be a prof for two years afterwards, and I didn't want to be!

JL: Why did you have to . . .

SB: 'Cause I'm not a teacher.

JL: Oh! Why did you have to come back?

38:00

SB: Well, that was part of the . . .

JL: Oh.

SB: The terms of the, of the scholarship.

JL: Why did you think you weren't a teacher?

SB: 'Cause, I didn't want to be a teacher. I wanted to go to work, (laugh)

JL: Okay. Now, one of the traditions I know is that they wore red shirts.

SB: No. Red tie.

JL: Red tie! That's it.

SB: Yeah, a red tie.

JL: Do you remember that?

SB: Yeah. And they always sung a song when we'd have a meeting that I never hear anymore.

JL: What's the song?

SB: (singing)"Down under the hill; there is a little still; where the smoke goes curling to the sky./ You can always tell; by the sniffle and the smell; there's liquor in the air close by." Huh, let's see. What's the rest of it now? 39:00"Always tell by the sniffle and the smell; that there's liquor in the air close by." (pause) So, anyway, "You'd take a little sip; and try a little dip; of the good old mountain dew." (laugh) That was it. (laugh)

JL: Who would sing that?

SB: The whole school of Forestry used to, whenever they'd meet.

JL: Well, now, did Dean Peavy condone drinking? Or, was this just a . . .

SB: No, no, that was just the song, that was all (laugh)

JL: Oh! Do you remember any of the field trips you'd take?

SB: Oh, yes, absolutely!

JL: And, where would you go on these field trips?

SB: Oh, up in the Peavy Arboretum, now. It was the school . . .

JL: MacDonald Forest?

SB: MacDonald Forest, yeah.

JL: Can you talk. . . tell me anything that you can remember about Mac Donald 40:00Forest, or any of these trips?

SB: No, I can't. I don't remember.

JL: Do you remember the truck "Two bits"?

SB: Well, we, we used to go up there and scale timber. And learn how to do a scaling, and things like that.

JL: Would you ever go with TJ Starker on any of his fieldtrips to the coast,

SB: No, never did.

JL: Do you remember . . .

SB: I remember when he used to tell us, "Always buy land, but land, buy land, buy land". And, I have made more money, percentage wise, in my life, on land, than anything else, (pause) I .. I . . . I've bought lots of land. I still own a lot of land. I bought . . . one of the things I bought was 72 acres up on 41:00the top of Elk Horn Mountain, that's just north of Vancouver. Four, I paid five hundred dollars for it. I bought 78 acres on the east fork of the Lewis, and I paid 1200 for that. And, like a fool, I sold them, five years ago, to Weyerhaeuser for 87,000. Weyerhaeuser owned all four sides of them.

JL: You mean, you could have gotten more money, you think?

SB: Yeah, right. Then I bought Ellersley Lake, 122, 120 acres, up there. No! 2200 acres up there. That's up in British Columbia, about 100 miles south of Prince Rupert. And, the most out of the way place to get into with your boat that you ever saw in your life!! You went up there to, up Skoover (?) channel, 42:00and you came to the place, and there was a bay inside, with an entrance, only sixty feet wide, and the tide is about 22, 23 feet up there, depends on how, what time of the month is is, I mean with the moon, where the moon is, you know tide's based on the moon. And, so, you had to go in there at the top of the flood, 'cause the current was so fast! So, and, inside the bay, then, was about a half mile long, a quarter mile wide. And, at the back end of the bay was a waterfall, about a hundred feet wide, and sixty feet high. And, there was a pond in there, then, there was another waterfall right above that! And, the fishing in that was just unbelievable!

Well, I used to carry our dingy for their boat up over the two falls, and it 43:00took several of us to do it, because that dingy weighed about six hundred pounds. And, we'd carry it up over the falls. Then I went up fifteen miles above Ellersly Lake, to this land I bought. 2200 acres. Paid 8000 dollars for it. And, it was beautiful timber. Well, like a fool, about eight years ago, I sold it to a sawmill in Vancouver, British Columbia for 122,000. And, he logged it and let it go back for taxes. I should have sold him the timber, and kept the land! 'Cause the Canadian government has passed a law now, that an American can't come up there and buy timber land. So, any ... no foreigner can. So, I bought, up at Prince George, you know where Prince George is, I bought 44:00160 acres up there for 500 dollars. And, there's a lake on one side of it. And, moose around that lake--you never saw so many moose in your life! And, it's all coming back to second growth beautifully. It was logged before I got it. Now it's coming back. Beautifully! the second growth/ And, I bought another 160 acres up on Porcher Island for 500 dollars. And, I was offered 91,000 dollars for them this year, and I turned it down.

JL: You're not going to make the same mistakes again.

SB: (laugh)

JL: But, this lesson of buying land you got from TJ Starker, then.

SB: I got it from TJ.

JL: Other . . . what. . . other people weren't buying any land when TJ was saying this?

SB: I . . . far as I know they weren't.

JL: Hm. Boy, . . .he was very successful . . .

45:00

SB: TJ bought a lot of land, you know. He owns a lot of forest land, between here and the coast.

JL: What other people, professors had an influence on you, in this time period?

SB: Well, we only had four or five professors in the whole school (laugh) . . in those days. And, they all did, because they were all excellent teachers. Excellent profs.

JL: Now, who were the others that you recall?

SB: I can't remember their names.

JL: Mason?

SB: Mason was there, yes.

JL: And, do you remember Grome (?) Miller?

SB: Yes, he was there.

JL: Okay. Anything that you can remember about them at all, or . . ?

SB: No, no, they were good profs, that's all I can remember.

JL: What are your most vivid memories of that time period, then?

SB: Well, I was studying hard. And, then, to help out with my cost of college, 46:00one thing another; and, I got married, in 1928. And, mu wife had a little ba baby then before we graduated, Jolene. She's now representative of congress in the state of Washington, for the state congress, she was just elected this last fall. Won 55 percent of the vote. And, so, anyway,

JL: So, you married in 1928, a year after you'd arrived in Corvallis, so you were a married student as well. Wasn't that unusual, I mean . . .?

SB: As far as I know, it wasn't, (laugh)

JL: No, I mean as student going to school and being married.

SB: Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah, there were very few of them. . . were married 47:00in school at the time. Very few. Now, there are lots of them. Yeah. But in those days there wasn't . . . there wasn't anybody, hardly.

JL: So, you . . .

SB: Only one other couple, to my knowledge.

JL: Did you get involved in the school activities at all? The Arboretum Day, and the...

SB: Oh, yeah, always involved in that. But, not, not any of the sports.

JL: And, other . . . let's see . . . what other forestry activities do you recall?

SB: Well, we'd go on the scaling expeditions, out in the woods, so forth, and so on. And, all kinds of things like that. So we were getting, we were getting first hand knowledge of the industry, and how to operate it, one thing another.

JL: So, what was your goal with your degree in Forestry? What did you want to do then?

48:00

SB: I wanted to go to work then, afterwards.

JL: What kind of work? Not as a mill . . ?

SB: Yeah.

JL: As a mill . . .?

SB: Mills, or someway, somehow, in the forest industry.

JL: Forest Industry. Were you interested in the business aspect of it?

SB: Yes. That's right. Right. That's what I wanted to get into. So, then, before I graduated, I thought I. . . this was just in the Depression, you know, the Depression was still on. And, I thought I'd get a . . this was in January or February, I thought I'd see, come into Portland and what I could get a job at. Well, the best price I could get a job was, maybe you'd get, oh, maximum of 125 dollars a month! Well, that didn't appeal to me very much. Clarence Richen, who was . . . he's a friend of mine now, he used to be vice president of Crown Zellerbach. He got a job at that time for that.

JL: He was a student with you at the time?

49:00

SB: Yeah. And . . .

JL: That wasn't very much at that time, either.

SB: Yes, it was! That was a lot at that time. Yeah, 'cause, daily wages were, oh, twenty cents an hour.

JL: So, why didn't you want to take the job?

SB: Well, cause I wanted to make more money than that.

JL: Oh.

SB: (laugh) So, I saw all these cotton wood trees, up the Willamette River, here. And, there was an island up above here. About five or six miles, with beautiful cotton wood on it.

JL: What Island is that?

SB: I forget the name of it. So, I went in to see the farmer that owned it, and, yeah, he'd sell the timber to us, I think it was fifty cents a thousand. And, so, I said, I'll see what I can do. So, I came down to Portland, went to see all the wholesalers in town. Finally, I found one. H. R. Mc- Millan Now McMillan 50:00"Blodell, out of Vancouver, B.C. And, they offered me five dollars and twenty-five cents a thousand, for the logs delivered to Portland, along side of a ship. Five hundred thousand feet. So, I took an order for five hundred thousand feet, for delivery in April. And, I hired the kids in the school of Forestry on their days off, and their weekends, to cut...do the logging. And, I got the farmer to take his team, and drag the logs into the river So, we got the logs all in the river, and in a raft, ready to go, and I tried to get a tow boat company to come up and tow them. Well, I didn't have any money, and they wouldn't do it, wouldn't touch it. Finally, I found a small towboat outfit that would.

So, I made a deal with him. He was to come up here Thursday... and pick the raft up, take it down to Portland, 'cause I had to get it down to this ship. And, so, 51:00Thursday, he didn't show up! Friday, he hadn't shown up! So, I started down the river looking for him. And, I saw his boat tied up at Albany! So, I went over to the boat, there wasn't anyone in it, so I went up on the bank above the boat, there was a saloon there. So, I went in the saloon, and there he was, he couldn't hit the ground with his hat! So, I picked him up, and carried him down, put him on the boat, took him back up the river, here, to the island, and spent a whole day sobering him up. And, then we started down the river with the raft. Well, we'd logged six hundred thousand feet, instead of five hundred, luckily, and, he didn't have power enough in the tow boat, and he wrapped it around an island in the river up there. . . down here, and, we lost a hundred 52:00thousand feet of logs. But, we delivered, to McMillan five hundred thousand feet. (sigh) Well, McMillan was never so surprised in their life that we delivered the logs.

JL: Well, he didn't expect you to do it, huh?

SB: No! So, he gave me another order. Instead of five dollars and a quarter, five dollars and sixty-five cents a thousand. Well, that was . . . oh, after taking this raft down, and paying the kids off, and paying the farmer, paying the tow boat man, and everybody, I had nine dollars and sixty-seven cents left.

JL: That's not very good business.

SB: No, I know it's not! (laugh) So, anyway, I took another, ... if I hadn't of lost those logs I'd a had a lot of money!

JL: Oh, yeah, sure.

SB: So, anyway, he, McMillan gave us another order for five dollars and sixty-five cents a thousand. So, we did the same thing.

53:00

JL: Same plot of land?

SB: Yeah.

JL: Okay.

SB: So, we took those down, and the tow boat man wrapped them around a bent in the Hawthorne Bridge. And, we lost a bunch of logs there. And, so, anyway, we delivered those, and, after paying everybody off, I'd lost nine dollars and a quarter. (laugh) Well, anyway, so, I said, "Well, this is a good business to get into, but I'm in the wrong end of it. I gotta do the contracting, and let the other guy do the work." So, I did. And, so I was soon making about, oh, 250, 300 dollars a month, which was a lot of money in those days, an awful lot! There wasn't even a blue collar man didn't get any more than that! So, anyway, finally, I took an order from Danton-Russell, for fifty thousand feet of 54:00aspen logs a month, for a year, for eighteen dollars and sixty-five cents a thousand, delivered alongside the ship. And, aspen logs are hard to find They were going to Manilla Match Company to make match sticks out of them, in Manilla. Well, you get them in Eastern Oregon, and Idaho, Western Montana, Eastern British Columbia, Eastern Washington, and so I was spending all my time finding farmers that had aspen logs on their place, so I could log them! Get them logged! Well, I was making about two hundred and fifty dollars a month doing that, which wasn't enough. And. . .

JL: Wasn't enough for you . . .

WB: Right, right. So, I didn't have time to do anything else! Took all my time to find those logs. And, the head of the , the . . . let's see

55:00

JL: (cough) Danton-Russell?

SB: No. Not Georgia-Pacific . . . not . . . head of the Great Northern Railway was, I was getting cars from him, and hauling the logs down to the ships. And, I didn't have money to pay the railroad, until I got paid! And, this manager, so, he was taking my word for it, and, when I see him now--he's been retired for years, he's getting older than the hills, in fact, I haven't seen him about eight-ten years--he reminds me how he used to finance me. (laugh)

JL: Oh! He . . .l

SB: And he'd, what he'd do, so now he says, "You tell me when you need the cars to fill up." Then he says, "You tell me when the boat's gonna be due." And then said, "I'll bring the cards down Park Way, 'cause if I had over two days 56:00time with the cars, and, parked, waiting for the boat, I'd have to pay demurrage on them. And, I didn't want to pay the demurrage . So, he'd bring them down to one station, then down to another, then he said, "Keep me advised on when the boat's coming." And, he'd keep 'em two days in each one of these stations, and he'd bring them in right on time!

JL: Oh!

SB: So, anyway, at the end of the year I took, went in to see Danton-Russell, the order was all complete. And, I said, "I want some more money for that." "We can't pay yah" I said, "okay, forget it! Forget it!" So, 'cause I'd been selling Danton-Russell'd been selling the Robert Dollar Company'd been selling H.R. McMillan'd been selling all kinds of people logs. A lot of the saw mills, and so forth.

JL: (cough)

SB: I'd buy the logs, say for five and a quarter, and I'd charge the sawmill 57:00five thirty-five, and I'd make ten cents a thousand. And I would make money that way. So, anyway, I took ... I ... I was, I was . . . doing this, and . . . so, after I'd finished the order, and I was getting other logs one thing another, I heard I had an uncle on his way around the world, and he was in Manilla. I never met him. My dad's brother. He owned the Bishoprick Wallboard Company in Cincinnati, Ohio. And, so, I heard he was there, and I took a chance on finding him with a telegram, with a cable, and, I sent it to the Manilla Hotel, and my wife and I sat up all one night, 58:00'til two o'clock in the morning, drafting the cable, and we had to state it so he'd understand it. And yet it was six bits of word for a cable in those days, which was a lot of money! And, we didn't have many six bits, as you see! So, fired the cable off. Three days later I got an answer. "Secured order" I told him take it at whatever Danton-Russell's price was; 'cause the difference would be profit. So, three days later, I got a cable. "Have order. Arriving on President Jefferson. Meet me in the Olympic Hotel in Seattle." So I said okay, to myself, he wasn't there, so, I went up to the Olympic Hotel, and met him, and we sat down, and we talked one thing another, 59:00gee, he was real good, he was . . . he was a dandy individual .

JL: And what was his name?

SB: His name was Allyson Bishoprick. And, so, I was telling him how I was jaw-boning the rail road, and I was jawboning every . . . all the other people. And he said, "You're jawboning the railroad?!" I said, "Yes!" I says, "I am. Can't pay them. I haven't any money! 'til I get paid." "Well, how much money do you need, for working capital?" I said, "Probably five thousand dollars." He sat and wrote me out a check for five thousand dollars. Right there.

JL: Because you were relative?

SB: I don't . . . yeah, I guess so. And, he believed what I was saying. I had him paid off in 10 months. So, anyway, about a week later, after taking the order, I got a call from Gaston Ganal, the manager of the American President ... 60:00of Robber Dollar Company in Seattle . Wanted me to come up. So, I went up to his office. I'd never got such a bawling out in my life!! "You took the Manilla Match contract direct, didn't you?" I said, "Yes. Yeah, I did." "Get out of my office. I'll never buy another log from you as long as I live!!"

JL: Ooo!

SB: (laugh)

JL: How did you feel ?

SB: Well, I didn't care, 'cause I was selling logs to everybody and his brother, it didn't matter to me any. So, about a week later, I got a call from Mr. Dant, who I'd never met (pause) to come in. Well, I thought I was going to get the same bawling out. So, I went in about 10 o'clock in the morning, 10, 10:30. Well, he never spoke! Always just nodded for you to sit down, until he reached in his bottom drawer, pulled a plug of tobacco out, took a big chew, put the plug back, chewed for a minute, and spit towards the gaboon, and he never hit the gaboon(laugh)!

61:00

JL: Oh, No!!

SB: Finally he said, he said, "You took the Manilla Match contract direct, didn't ya?" He says, "Congratulations." Just floored me! So, anyway, we talked 'til noon. He took me out to lunch. And we talked 'til about Z o'clock. Finally, he says, "I ought to make a deal with you'.' I says, "What's that?" He said, "You come in and use our money. I'll give you a secretary, and I'll give you a private office. And, you pay us five percent. And, everything else is yours." I said, "It's a deal"

JL: Wow! And that was because he liked the way you conducted your business.

SB: Yeah, I was making a profit, see. I was making more profit than a lot of his workers. Well, within . . .

JL: (cough)

SB: within six months, I was making about three thousand dollars a month. In those days, that was a lot of money, though he ... he didn't pay any 62:00[unintelligible], the manager, anything else, didn't get over seven hundred!

JL: That's a lot this day in age!

SB: So, anyway, I was just doing great, so about a year later, in 1936, late in '36, he called me into his office . . .

JL: This is probably a good place . . . .

SB: He called me into his office, and . . . and, said, "I got a problem, a real serious one." And I said (cough) I said, "What's that?" "Well," he said, "over in China ..." They owned the China Import and Export Lumber Company in those days . Said, "I've got a manager over there that's getting into deals. And, if they're good deals, they're his. If they're poor deals, they're the 63:00company's. And," he said, "I want you to go over and straighten it out. " Said, "Won't take you long. You won't need to take your family." Said, "You'll get it done in just a short while." So, I said, "Fine!" Gee, that was interesting. I hadn't been over seas. And, I said, "Great!! I'd love to do that!!"

JL: You never went to Manilla, then.

SB: No, I hadn't been to Manilla, yet. So, I went over. And, he heard probably what I was coming for the day before I arrived. He got on a boat. Headed for Japan. And, the next day jumped over board. So, one thing led to another,

JL: He jumped over board!?

SB: Yeah.

JL: He was doing such illegal, corrupted things, huh?

SB: Yeah.

JL: Okay.

SB: And, so, one thing led to another, and I soon saw I wasn't going to get through, and, so, I sent for the family. So, my daughter went to school over there in Shanghai for four years.

JL: And, then, so in 1936 is when you arrived in China.

64:00

SB: That's when I arrived in China.

JL: And, this is where your films tonight come in.

SB: (affirmative)

JL: My Gosh! So, in . . . it was after you graduated from college that you saw those cotton wood trees? And, whatever caused you to think about going into business the business like you did?

SB: Well, 'cause ... it was ... I, I , I didn't ... I wasn't, I didn't want to go to take a job at a hundred and twenty five dollars a month.

JL: So, you were looking around for something that could make you more.

SB: Right.

JL: But, in the Depression time, whatever made you think that cotton wood trees would make you any richer . . .

SB: Well, I, I figured out what I'd have to pay for them; what it would cost to get them delivered to the ship; and what I could get for them. Then, there was a profit, so I figured. Then, I'd hired the kids in the School of Forestry on their ... in their, in their weekends, and off days, to do the logging.

JL: Did you consult with anybody else, that . . . You were quite an independent 65:00person, or, probably are an independent. . .

SB: Stubborn.

JL: What?

SB: Stubborn (laugh)

JL: Stubborn . . .

SB: (laugh)

JL: Because, during the Depression people weren't making much.

SB: Right, right. I know they weren't.

JL: So, the Depression really didn't effect you much, then. During all your schooling, and all, you were able to find jobs okay. Hmm. Gee.

SB: And, one of the ways I helped work my way through school, with the money, I'd go a year, work a year, and go a year, and work a year. I took a job selling life insurance. And, I sold it to various students. And, I was making about a hundred dollars a month while I was in school, selling life insurance policies to the students. And, you know, Stub Stuart?

JL: Yes, I've heard of him.

SB: Stub Stuart reminds me of the time that he, he still has the policy, that he 66:00bought the insurance from me, and so on.

JL: Oh, my gosh! (laugh)

SB: (laugh)

JL: So, you worked in mills, and then did life insurance selling?

SB: Yeah.

JL: Did you do anything else?

SB: Nope.

JL: And, by that time, you went to China . . .

SB: I did this . . . the insurance business all the time I was in school, too, until I finished.

JL: You're quite an entrepreneur, weren't you? Or, are!? (laugh) In 1936 you had only one daughter, or, did you have other children.?

SB: Yeah. One. And, then Stanley, Stanley was born about six months, about a month before I left for China. And, Cora came over about six months later He was about six months old.

JL: Okay.

SB: And, so we had, we just had the two, and then Coreen was born about a month 67:00after we got back from China in '41. And, Winona was born in '40 . . . '44, I think. '44, '45, something like that.

JL: How soon was it that you learned the language?

SB: Over there? Oh, I got a Chinese teacher for an hour a day, for two hours a day for five days a week, for three and a half years. Boy, it's a difficult language to learn. Oh, my word! You know there's eight tones in it. And, the same word with a different tone has an entirely different meaning. Now, take the word for "buy", or the word for "sell". "My" is "buy", "my" (sharply) is 68:00"sell". So, you got to be awfully careful, whether you're buying or selling, (laugh)

JL: Did you get so you could speak it fairly fluently then?

SB: Yes. Fairly fluently, so that I could understand it. It's a difficult language to learn, because there's so many tones in it. Now, I learned Mandarin, I didn't learn the other languages. There's over fifty Chinese languages, they can all write to each other, but they can't all speak to each other.

JL: Oh. Did you learn to right, then?

SB: No. No, I didn't. And, it takes ... it takes so many characters to learn to write you have to learn at least five thousand characters. Well, that's a lot of an alphabet, you know. And, in order to read a scientific book in Chinese, you need to know thirty thousand characters! Imagine that?!

JL: Boy .

69:00

SB: I can't either. But, that's the . . . now, the Japanese, you know, have got away from . . . their . . . they could write to the Chinese. The Chinese and Japanese could write to each other. But, they have gotten an alphabet in their characters, now. But, instead of six . . . twenty six letters in the alphabet, they've got fifty, or something like that. And, but in this, in the Chinese language, the Mandarin is . . . has only four tones, and Cantonese has eight. And, oh! its, to understand the difference, the ... is just terrific. And, is very difficult. So, I haven't tried that. I was down about, see about eight years ago, I was down in Cortabaru, in the Northeast corridor of 70:00Malaysia. There wasn't another white man within two hundred miles of there. I was buying logs down there. And, I was having dinner one night with the Chinese in a restaurant there. Another Chinese heard there was a foreigner in town and he wanted to meet him. So, he came into the restaurant keeper, and asked to be introduced to my host, have him introduce him to me. So, anyway, my host was speaking Cantonese, the other man was speaking Mandarin, they weren't getting along a hoot! So, I butted in. And, the stranger says, "You speak Chinese!?" I said, "Yes" He says, "Where you learn?" I said, "I used to live in China." "Who you work for?" I told him. I . . . "Oh, where, where do you live?" And, I told him, "Shanghai." "Who you work for?" I told him. "Oh," he said, "I remember you! I remember Mr Cannon, Mr. Collins, Mr. Stansfield." and, he said, "I remember you when you first arrived." You imagine that?

71:00

JL: Is that right!?

SB: Yeah. So, anyway . . .

JL: Gee!

SB: (laugh)

JL: Gosh! What a . . . that's amazing!

SB: Isn't it though?

JL: And you could . . . eight years ago you went and visited China. Did . . .

SB: Four years ago.

JL: Four years ago?

SB: (affirmative)

JL: And, you. . . you picked up the language again?

SB: Well, If I'd a stayed ... I was there for three weeks. If I'd a been there for three months, I'd a been right back in it again. But, there's so much of it that I've forgotten in the meantime, that, it's ... You just gotta keep up in the language in order to keep it, you know.

JL: Did you stay in China because you liked it? I mean, did you, in 1936 to '41, you were there . . .

SB: Yeah.

JL: so for five years you liked it there.

SB: Yeah. I like it, uh huh.

JL: It, it's so very different. What did. . . What did you enjoy about it? I mean, can you just . . .

SB: Well, I was working at a work that I liked.

72:00

JL: Which was what? I'm not quite clear . . .

SB: Well, we, we owned China Import and Export Lumber Company. Owned 67 distribution yards all over China. They owned six saw mills. They owned the only plywood factory. We had two ships that plied the China coast and the Yangsy River. And four thousand employees. We did about eighty percent of the lumber business in China. Well, that was fun doing all that business, you see.

JL: Hmm. I bet. And, so were you one of the only employees from the company...

SB: I ... we had four white men . . .

JL: Oh!

SB: and all the rest were Chinese.

JL: Were they . . . were the four white men spread around?

SB: No, they were all in Shanghai.

JL: Shanghai.

SB: Our headquarters were in Shanghai. And you will never believe this: four years ago when I was over there . . . When we lived there we lived at 925 Avenue Petain, on the fourth floor, on the west side of the building. So, I was going to break away from the group the next day and see if I could find the old apartment. We got in ten-thirty that night. They put up at 925 Avenue Petain in the fourth floor, in the west side of the building, in my old bedroom.

73:00

JL: Oh, my gosh! I bet that was strange!

SB: You can . . . You just couldn't believe it!

JL: (cough)

SB: I went down to our old office, down in Yangsy pool, in the outskirts of Shanghai, outside the international settlement, and there was our name, still over the door. I've got a picture of it.

JL: You do. Oh, gee. What did you family . . .how did your family do in that kind of environment?

SB: They, they enjoyed them. My wife taught Sunday school over there. Mae Ling Sung, that's Kang Ki Sheks wife, Mae Ling Sung, and my wife taught Sunday school in the same Sunday school together.

And, so, I became very good friends of theirs. We used to go to their house for dinner, every once in a while.

JL: My gosh! They . . . did she speak . . .

74:00

SB: English. She speak . . . spoke good English.

JL: And your wife, does she speak Chinese at all?

SB: No. Oh, a little bit, but not much. I remember one time when we were back, after we come back from China, and we were up by Yakima. And, were going to stay all night in the, in the . . . what would you call 'em . . .

JL: Hotel.

SB: Not a hotel, a motel.

JL: Motel.

SB: Yeah. And, so, I wanted to look at the rooms before we took it, so I told the manager I want to look at them, so, he took us down, showed us one of the rooms. So, I told Cora in Chinese, I didn't like it, we'd go someplace else, and the man answered me in Chinese (laugh) He says, "I'll show you a better one." (laugh)

JL: Oh, that would be terrible (laugh)

SB: (laugh)

75:00

JL: She understand just a little.

SB: Yeah.

JL: Oh, great. (laugh) Now, does your wife, Jolene, or daughter Jolene know how to speak Chinese?

SB: No.

JL: Did she learn when she was there?

SB: (negative)

JL: She was sent to what kind of school, then?

SB: Well, they had the . . . the American and British had a school there in Shanghai.

JL: Oh, so most of your, all of your friends then were American or British.

SB: Yeah, right, right.

JL: Oh, and so, tonight you're going to talk about your experiences in China?

SB: I guess so.

JL:... during those five years.

SB: (affirmative) Then, the American Embassy, or the American Counsel General in Shanghai, in 1940, Christmas Day, sent all the women and children home to the states, because of the coming of World War II. So, all my family left on Christmas Day. I didn't get out. I was to come home in March the 15th, when Byron Stansfield got back from his vacation. We got six months vacation every 76:00five years. And, I was to go on my six months, and I'm glad I didn't get away then, 'cause I'd a been back in September! So, anyway, there wasn't any airplanes in those days, all boats, and all the boats were just filled to the hilt. You couldn't get out of there if wanted to! So, July the . . . Thursday, July the 12th, Gaston Ganol, the manager of American President Lines over there, who was a friend of mine, been trying to get me out, and he hadn't been able to. . He called me up, he said "Stan, are you superstitious?" I said, "No, why?" Well, he says, "I got the President Taft sailing tomorrow on Friday the 13th." And, he says, "She has over 2500 passengers on board. Only has accommodations for two hundred and twenty-five." And he said, "They're sleeping ten in the cabin, they're sleeping in the lobbies, and the hallways, everywhere. And . . .

77:00

JL: These were American and British.

SB: Both. And, he said, "I got cabin 13, and no one will touch it." I said, "I'm in." Now, if anything's going to happen to cabin 13, it's gonna happen to the whole ship!

JL: Okay.

SB: So, I had cabin 13 all to myself!

JL: All to yourself?!

SB: All the way across the Pacific! Can you imagine that!

JL: Because people were superstitious! So, you got out of there in 1941.

SB: I got July 13th, Friday, July the 13th, 1941. And, when I get a new passport today, they always have a slip in it. "Passport number 1300. Issued Shanghai, China, May 9th, 1941." Why they put that slip in, I don't know.

JL: Oh! I don't know! Well, now and your wife had left months and months before...

SB: She left in December.

JL: In December, oh my gosh. You didn't know that you wouldn't be coming back for quite a long time.

78:00

SB: I thought I was coming in March, you see. And, on the ship that she was on, coming home, the ship was bombed coming across the Pacific, but it wasn't hurt.

JL: It was bombed!?

SB: By the Japanese.

JL: It wasn't hurt?

SB: Wasn't hurt. She didn't get hurt at all. But, they were lucky.

JL: Oh, my Lord! Would you have been there, not still, but for years and years after if things had continued?

SB: Yes, I would have been.

JL: I mean, you liked it that much.

SB: Well, it wasn't a good place to bring your children up.

JL: Even in peaceful times . . .

SB: No, because they've got to be connected with the American public, and . . . and have opportunities to do something else other than over there. But, it was all right while they were still youngsters, in the lower schools, and so forth and so on.

JL: So, when you came back then you continued working for the Dan . . .

79:00

SB: Danton-Russell.

JL: Danton-Russell Company.

SB: Yeah, uh huh.

JL: And, then what happened?

SB: Well, they sold out in 1956. That's what made Georgia-Pacific. Then I started the new company in 1956. Called it Danton-Russell, because Georgia-Pacific didn't want the name. The name was known world-wide , all over the world in the export trade, so I took the name, and started the new company. I put in most the money.

JL: Hmm. And that's what this company is now, that I . . .

SB: No, they went bankrupt here about two years ago.

JL: Were you in charge then?

SB: No, I'd retired. And I pulled a boner. I hired a manager. He was an excellent salesman But, no manager. And he and the logging superintendent were together like that. And they broke the company. So, I personally lost two and a half million dollars.

80:00

JL: Oh, gee. That's quite a bit. Well, now this company that you're . . . that I have a card for, "Wood . . .

SB: "Exterior Wood"?

JL: Exterior Wood?!

SB: Yeah. That's my son's company. But, I've got fifty cents in it.

JL: Fifty cents, huh?

SB: (laugh)

JL: Okay. Well, you know . . . you can tell fascinating stories that can curl my hair in China, you mean? Like about what, what in particular, you mean things that you observed, or . . .

SB: Well, after the occupation of the Yangsy Delta by the Japanese, and as far inland as Nun Jing, I'm the only white man after the occupation of the interior of China by the Japanese that traveled all over China at my will. Whenever I wanted to go.

81:00

JL: Why is that? Because you were the only one around?

SB: No. Pay under the table.

JL: You knew the customs, then.

SB: And that's . . . it's a long story. It'd take . . . oh, take half hour to tell it, maybe, but I'll tell it to you if you want me to.

JL: Sure, yeah!

SB: Alright. After the occupation Nun Jing, which is on December the 8th, 1940 uh, no, 1937. And, Pearl Harbor was an anniversary of the occupation of Nun Jing. It was on December the 8th, 1941. So, we had a saw mill, and two big distribution yards and a big inventory in Nun Jing, and I wanted to get up there. See about the inventory. Liquidate it, if I could. What happened to 82:00the employees, etc. So, I went down to Japanese Consulate, see if I could get a pass to go to Nun Jing. "We're not issuing passes to foreigners!" I said, "Well, someway, somehow, I'm gonna find a way." "We're not issuing passes to foreigners!" So, I said, "Okay. But, I'm gonna find a way." So, a few days I got to thinking. The ... we were doing a lot of business through the Japanese Navy, and their headquarters were down at Woo Sung, at the mouth of the Yangsy River, about 15 miles below Shanghai. So, I decided I'd go down. We were doing a lot of business with them, so I thought I'd go down, see if I could get a pass from them to go up. So, they had a school house down there. One room school house. They had a bunch of benches put up across the front of the room, and I went in. About 15 naval officers in there. And a little lieutenant 83:00commander stepped up to the desk, wondering what I wanted. I said, "I want to get a pass to Nun Jing." In a very loud voice, you could hear all over the room. "We're not issuing passes to foreigners!!" I said, "Well, I got to get there. Because I've got too much at stake, and I've got to get there." "We're not issuing passes to foreigners!" So, I says, "Well, whether I can get one here or not, I'm gonna get one, because I've got to get up there." So I turned around to leave, and in a very little voice he said, "Can you give me your name and telephone number?" So, I did.

So, that night when I was sitting down to dinner, there was a telephone call. "This is Lieutenant Commander Suzuki speaking. You were in my office today for a pass for Nun Jing." I said, "Yes" "Would you come to my apartment?" I 84:00said, "Soon as I finish dinner." "No, now!" So, I ... he gave me the address, and I went down. And it was in the Yangsy Poo area, and at night down there they turned off all the street lights, and there was mill ... it was a dark cloudy night, and there was military trucks, Japanese military trucks driving up and down the streets. And you had . . . and no lights on them. You had to be awfully careful you didn't get hit. So, I found the apartment where he told me, and so, I got off at the fourth floor, the top, penthouse up on the roof, he had it.

And, I knocked at the door, and he came to the door, and he was about two-thirds shot. So, I went in, and here in the room was about fifteen naval officers, I imagine the same ones from down Woo Sung, and about fifteen geisha girls! So, he insisted on sitting down on the floor with his arm around my neck, singing "Down 85:00on the Suwanee River, and Old Folks at Home". He was a graduate of University of Iowa. (laugh)

JL: Oh, my goodness, so all of this was in English then. . .

SB: Yeah

JL: . . . that you were talking to him. Oh, my God!

SB: So, anyway, at about 11 o'clock the party started to break up, and I got up to thank him for inviting me. He said, "No, you stay!" So, everyone else left , finally. Said, "Mr. Bishoprick, you want pass for Nun Jing?" Well, I hadn't been in the Orient only about a year then, and I was very abrupt. I said, "Yeah, how much do you want for it?" I shocked him beyond words. He said, "You know far better than I what such pass is worth!" I, "Oh, yes, yes, yes, okay." "You come to my apartment tomorrow night, I will have pass for you." I said, "I'll be here." So, next morning I told Byron Stansfield. I 86:00says, "How much ..." Byron was the manager.. . of the company. Byron, he said ... I said, "How much you looking for?" Byron says, "I haven't the foggiest notion!" I said, "I don't either!" (cough) So, we took seven, the equivalent of seven hundred and fifty American dollars in military Yen. Japanese money. And, put 'em in an envelope, stuck it in my pocket.

JL: You' assumed that would be enough.

SB: So, I went down to the. , went down that night, and the same party was going on! He needed money to finance those parties! You know what geisha girls are, don't you? They, they're really not wicked at all. They're just entertainers.

JL: They're not prostitutes.

SB: No. They're not prostitutes. And, so, anyway, same party was going on. So, anyway, the party started to break up about 11 o'clock, so I stayed! So, 87:00everyone else left, he reached in his pocket, pulled the pass out, handed it to me. I've got it now. I could show it to you. And, so I reached in my pocket, pulled the envelope out, handed him it. He never looked at it. Shoved it in his pocket. Looked at his watch, and he said, "What time you wanna go?" Well, I said, "The sooner the better." "Well, you be at Broadway Mansions at 5:30 in the morning, and I'll have escort for you." I said, "I'll be there." So, I went back and I got Byron out of bed, and told him about.it. So, we went down to the company safe, and I got ten-thousand, and put it in my pocket. And, I got fifty gallons of gasoline. Put in the back end of the car. And, and by that time it was nearly five o'clock in the morning. By the time I got down to the Broadway Mansions, it was 5:30. Well, I pulled up in 88:00front of the Broadway Mansions, and I didn't even have time to get out of my car! Out of the door comes the Gendarmerie officer with a sub-machine gun in his hand, and a pack on his back. Comes out to my car, opens the door, throws the pack in the back, climbs in the front seat, sits here with the sub-machine gun. He couldn't speak any English, I couldn't speak any Japanese. We were a perfect pair.

JL: (laugh)

SB: So there were no road maps of China in those days. I'd been up to Nun Jing before, but on the boat, or on the train, but never by road. So, all I knew it was 240 miles in that direction. So we started out. And, the Yangsy Delta had just been over run by the Japanese, and there was dead bodies laying all over the street, and all over the highway. And, you had to zig zag around them to keep from hitting them. And, there was dogs standing on 'em tearing their 89:00guts out. But, not touching their face. They would tear the guts out, but they wouldn't touch their face! So, in about sixty miles we came to the town of Soo . . . of Fu Chow. And, it's two and a half million population city walled. All cities were walled in those days. Shanghai was walled. And, so, pulled up there, and the gates were open in the wall! There were no sentries there, nothing there ! We hadn't seen a living soul all day. Went in, and dead people were piled up on each side of the sidewalk three, four feet deep. Just . . . two and a half million people all been killed by the Japanese, you see. So, anyway, we pulled, went through town, came to the gates on the other side, they were open. We drove out. And, we came to the forks in the road. 90:00So, I said to my pal, "Which way?" He goes (shrug)

JL: (laugh)

SB: So, I took the road to the left. I thought that was probably the proper road. Headed to be . . . seemed to me in the right direction. We drove another sixty miles , and we got into the front line fighting. So, I knew I was on the wrong road, so I came back. Well, we drove a hundred and eighty miles, and we'd accomplished sixty out of the two-forty!

JL: Nobody stopped you, or !?

SB: No, we never saw a living soul. So, we took the . . .

JL: Just dogs, huh?

SB: Yeah.

JL: Only living things.

SB: So, we took the other road. And about eighty miles we came to the Grand Canal. Which is about a thousand feet wide. And there was no way of detouring it. No way whatever. And the deck was off the bridge! The bents were there. The pylons were there, but no decking! I looked at it, looked at, "What are we going to do? How we gonna get across?" I measured the tread on the car, and I measured the plyons. It wouldn't fit. So, wondered, finally I thought, 91:00"Well, I guess there's nothing else for us to do but turn around and go back!" So, I happened to look behind, and here was a caravan of Japanese military trucks coming. Loaded with lumber with our name on the side of it.

JL: With Danton-Russell.

SB: Right! No. China Import and Export Lumber Company. "Jon Tai Mu Hung Guon Soor." So, anyway, they pulled the, pulled a truck up behind me, Well, if it'd been an American or British, they'd a said "Get the heck out of the way!" But they didn't!! They put planks down in front of me on the bridge, put a truck behind me, and we went across the bridge like this. About eight hundred feet.

JL: (unintelligible)

SB: Yeah! So, anyway, we . . . and then it was about forty miles more to the town of Kue Kee Yang. And, we drove up there. By that time it was getting dark! And I recognized a colonel walking down the street. A Japanese, been in my office buying lumber. So, I pulled up along side of him . He said, "What 92:00are you doing here!?" Well, I said, "It's like this. I got a pass to Nun Jing. I got a body guard, I'm on my way, no problem!" "You can't go there at night!" I said, "Why not?!" "You'll get shot!" I said, "Why!?" He says, "You . . . We're just holding this city by the skin of our teeth. We may lose it tonight." I says, so I said, "Well, I'll stay here with you tonight." "No! You can't do that!" Then he told me about, we may lose it tonight, after that, after I told him I'll stay with him tonight. Said, "No, you can't do that. We may lose it!" "Oh," I said, "I can't go back. The bridge is out. I can't go on, I can't stay with you. What am I gonna do?" "Well, have you eaten?" "No." "Well, come on, let's go eat."

JL: (laugh)

SB: So, we go eat. We talk, and talk, and talk. Finally, he says, "Well, maybe you better go on." Well, it was a dark, cloudy night.

93:00

JL: You didn't know where you were going, I thought! For sure!

SB: That's right, (laugh)

JL: (laugh)

SB: So, . . .

JL: Wait, wait, let me just turn ....

JL: Okay, go ahead. What?

SB: Forty miles. About forty miles, we . . . I mean Kue Kee Yang is about forty miles away from Nun Jing. So, said, "Now, don't turn your lights on! You turn your lights on and you'll be shot immediately." And, he says, "Every bridge between here and Nun Jing is out. You're gonna have to drive down the canyon, across the streams, go up the other side.

JL: What kind of vehicle did you have?

SB: I had a Chevrolet. And, so, he said, "Don't turn your lights on. They'll shoot you. So, I didn't turn the lights on, well, you couldn't drive more than about 5,6, 7 miles an hour, 'cause it was in woods, and , and, cloudy sky. You couldn't see. Anyway, about 11 o'clock the walls of Nun Jing loomed up right in front of me. So I knew we were there. Just then there was a shout. Nobody 94:00had to tell me that shout meant "Stop!" So I stopped. I started to roll the window down, to shout back. And my pal reached over and put his hand over my mouth, and shook his head. So, pretty soon there was another shout. He recognized the Japanese, so he rolled his down and shouted back. With that, flood lights came on us, and zeroed in on us, about thirty feet ahead of us, were five machine guns back of sandbags, (laugh)

JL: Oh!

SB: So, anyway, Lieutenant with a sub-machine gun in his hand crawled on his belly up the side of my car, and then stood up, says, "Passo". So, I gave him my pass. Looked at it, shook his head, he called another man over. Took the gun away from my pal. Put me and my pal in the back seat. Put the other man in the car. And he turned around, facing us with the machine gun.

95:00

JL: Holding the machine gun, pointing towards you?

SB: Yeah. And, drove inside the walls of Nun Jing. Well, he pulled up front of a building, went up the second floor, stopped. Well, if it'd been an American or British unit, how long we'd a waited 'til we got anything else other than getting in there. But, he went upstairs in this room, and here was a man asleep in a bed, his uniform hanging on the head of the bed, I recognized him being a general. So, they shook him. "What are you doing here?" "Well," I said, " It's just like this I said, "I got a pass for Nun Jing, I got a body guard, I'm here now, and no problem!" He said, "Do you have a pass for Nun Jing?" I said, "Yes." "May I see it?" So, I showed it to him. (pause) Well, I'd hoped Byron had . . .

JL: Shook his head also? (laugh)

SB: Yeah. I'd hoped Byron had done his part in Shanghai before I left and gone to the Japanese consulate and told them I was on my way! There was only 96:00white men, eight white men left in Nun Jing at the time. There was two at the American embassy, two at the British, one at the Swiss, one at the German, Dr. Watson of the, of the YMCA, and Dr. Wilson of the Jing Ling University Hospital. And, all the rest had left. And, so I'd hoped Byron had done his part in the embassy in . . . or the Counsel General in Shanghai had called the one in Nun Jing. And, I was staying at the British embassy, 'cause we were operating under British flag. There was no other place to stay. So, he reached over and grabbed a phone. He said, "The Japanese embassy. . . ambassador . . . Counsel General knows you're coming?" I said, "Yes!" He reached over and grabbed the telephone, and the hair on the back of my neck just stood on end. 97:00And dialed the number. Talked for a minute. "Aso, hi, hi. Aso, Aso, hi." Hung up. "Yeah, he knows you're coming." Whew!

JL: Mmm.

SB: I was relieved. (laugh)

JL: Oh, my gosh!

SB: Well, anybody that's got a body guard, anybody that's got a pass, a Japanese body guard, anybody that's got a pass is a very important person, or you couldn't get the pass, you see. So, the general got out. He said, "Have you eaten?" Well, we at Kue Kee Yang. "Oh, you must eat!" So, he gets the cook out of bed, and cooks a dinner. Then he personally escorts me down to the British embassy where I'm staying. And Predabroon, the Counsel General, the ambassador had gone, was pacing up and down in his hallway, because I was late! And . . .

98:00

JL: Cause Byron had done his homework.

SB: Yeah.

JL: . . . he had contacted them. Okay.

SB: So, he was tickled to death to see me. He showed me where my bedroom was to be, and he showed me my pal, my pal where his bedroom was. My pal refused that. He insisted on sleeping in my doorway so I couldn't' t get out without him knowing about it. Now, there was Japanese guards in front of the embassy, so I couldn't get out. I mean, you couldn't get out. So, the next morning I wanted to get out. 'Cause here was Nun Jing, we wandered over here, and drove five miles across town and we were just a quarter of a mile away from the gates alongside the Yangsy river where our sawmill was, just outside the gates. So, I wanted to go down to our sawmill. My pal wouldn't let me out. I was in. That was it. Period. Well, sit there in an embassy for goodness knows how long, (laugh) What was the use of the trip?

99:00

JL: [unintelligible] (laugh)

SB: So, finally, I got to thinking: well, sooner or later he's got to go to the bathroom. When he does I'll get out. So, that's the way I got out. And, I climbed over the back wall, 'cause I didn't dare go out the front gate . . . doors through the gate, 'cause the Japanese would do, grab me, you see. So, I climbed over the back wall, and I went around. Went down to the gate, going out over there. And, there was a guard at the gate. At the edge of town, you see, right next to the river. He said, "passo." So I showed him the pass, my pass said in, he wouldn't let me out. So, what we gonna do? So, finally I thought, "Well, I'll go back and see the general." So, I walked five miles across town. When I got back here, those gates were open, there wasn't a sentry at the gate, so I walked another 20 miles around Nun Jing to get a 100:00quarter of a mile away from where I started.

JL: You didn't go see the general, then.

SB: No.

JL: You figured you better . . .

SB: Right.

JL: . . . make haste.

SB: So, anyway, I went down to our sawmill, and it was in walls, then we had about 32 of the employees there, and I payed them money. And, and, I wrote their names all down in my diary. I've got it all down. And, so they finally said, "Please, get us some food. We haven't any food. I said, "Okay, I'll see what I can do." So then I walked another couple . . .

JL: These are Chinese.

SB: I walked another quarter . . . oh, no, about another 200 yards, I guess, down to our yard on the shores of the Yangsy River, on a dock there, where we had our lumber. And, here was two big barges loaded with our lumber, with our name on the side of it. So, I climbed up on the barges, took a tally book out 101:00of my pocket, went to work tallying the lumber. Pretty soon a couple of sentries spotted me. And, they came over shouting at me. And, they had . . . carrying rifles. And, I knew what they meant. They meant, "Come down! Get out!" I said, " Well, just a minute, boys, as soon as I finish I'll get down." Well, they kept shouting and shouting, shouting, and I just, I kept watching them out of the corner of my eye, because they pulled a rifle up, I'd a got down, but they didn't. Finally I saw one of them leave. He came back in a few minutes with a lieutenant with him. Lieutenant Shimizu, graduate University of California. And, Lieutenant said, "What are you doing here!?" "Well, " I said, "It's just like this, Lieutenant, "I said, " You came here, and you needed the lumber, and there was no one here for you to buy it from, or legalize it. You took it. And, but, " I said, "I'm here now, and I've got a tally of it, and I'll make an invoice." And, I said, "I'd a done the same 102:00thing you did. But ... no problem. But, I'll make a tally of it, and you take me down to the quartermaster corp and get paid." Shook his head. So, I made a invoice out. And I put 300% profit in it. And, so, he took me down to his head quarters, a Major Ota. Major shook his head, but he signed it. He took me down to quartermaster corp, and I got paid. So, then I went back to the gate to get back in, see. My pass said "in", the sentry'd let me in, no problem, (laugh)

JL: (laugh) Did you really have to walk twenty miles?

SB: Yeah.

JL: So it probably took you overnight, then? Did you...

SB: No, no, I was late in evening when I got back.

JL: Oh!

SB: So, when I got back, came up the British embassy. My pal was pacing up and down the side walk in front of it, just tearing his hear, and wringing his 103:00hands, and, he spotted me about 200 feet away, and he ran the whole distance, and I never got such a hugging in my life.

JL: Oh.

SB: 'Cause it was this for him if I'd got away, you see.

JL: Oh.

SB: After that I could go anywhere I wanted to, but he went with me. Which was okay with me. I didn't care.

JL: Oh, my gosh.

SB: So, anyway, the next day I went down to our . . . lumber yard, right close by, and there was three Jap . . . Chinese there. And . . .

JL: This is different from the mill site.

SB: Yes. And, there was three Chinese there, and they gave me a slip that said there was twelve Japanese military trucks in here this morning, and this is the lumber they took. So, I made an invoice out. Took it down to the quartermaster corp, and I got paid. So, the next morning and I went down there to the yard again, the three Chinese were dead on the front step. For telling 104:00me, you see.

JL: Oh!

SB: So, anyway, the other Chinese down at the sawmill wanted some food. So, I went down to the Quay Lay Jung Foo headquarters, that's the traitor government headquarters. They'd been established. And went into this L-shaped room, and here was about three Japanese officers, and three Chinese. So, I went up, and Chinese came up to me, wanted to know what I wanted, and I told him I wanted some food for our employees. And a very loud voice said, "We have no food available." He put his arm around my back, and pushed me around the L in the room. Got a card out, and he wrote on it. He says, "Here, take this, you can get all the food you want." So, with, on the address on the card . . .

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JL: Oh, he wasn't supposed to give food out to you.

SB: Right, right. So . . .

JL: Did you pay under the table, or something?

SB: Huh?

JL: Had you paid him under the table?

SB: No! No. I told him it's for our Chinese employees.

JL: Oh, okay, so . . .

SB: So, anyway, I went down to the address. Here was a Go Down. That's a warehouse, about , oh 300 feet long, 200 feet wide. Four stories high. Then the door in the front with a peep hole in it. So, I knocked on the door, and the peephole opened. I passed the card in. In a minute the door opened. I went in, and the whole building was filled with rice! So, I took five carloads of it in my car. And took it down to our employees, and of course with my Japanese with me, they let me out of the gate.

JL: Oh.

SB: Took it down there to them , and I said, "Where are your families?" "Oh, we show you." And they unpiled a pile of 12 by 12's , about forty feet long, 106:00about 15 feet high, and about 40 feet wide, timbers. Unpiled the whole pile, and they'd had a cave dug underneath, and their families were down there. And, they passed the food down to them, piled the twelve by twelves back up again.

JL: Oh, my gosh.

SB: So, while I was there in Nun Jing, still liquidating, the . . .Dr. Wilson was a Jing Ling . . . oh, you don't remember, but-right before world war two, there was a movie shown in the United States called "The Rape of Nun Jing". That movie was taken by Dr. Watson, through a hole in his coat. Well, I drove all around the city of Nun Jing, so he could take the pictures.

JL: While you were driving him.

SB: Yeah. And, my pal was asleep in the back seat. That's where that movie was made. So, anyway, a lot of people, older people, now, remember the movie. And, anyway, Dr. Wilson one day asked me to come and have dinner with him one 107:00night, So, me and my pal went over to the Jing Ling University hospital and had dinner. While we were having dinner there was a knock at the door. Dr. Wilson at the door, and here was a Chinese with a bandage around his head. He was carrying a bandage about the side of an orange in his hand. So, he took this bandage off and his ear was gone. He unwrapped this bandage, and there was his ear, but it was all dried out. He wanted to doctor to sew it on. Doctor said he couldn't do it. He says, it's too old. Too dry. "Huh." Turned around and left. Half hour later he came back with a new ear.

JL: What!!

SB: (laugh)

JL: Oh, my!!

SB: So, anyway, . . .

JL: What did the doctor do? Or, is that . . .

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SB: He said he couldn't do it. I t was a strange ear. (laugh)

JL: Oh! (laugh)

SB: Anyway. I'd been there for about three and a half weeks. And, Major Ota . . . no, Major Hawngo. . . called me into his office. He was the liaison man in Nun Jing. Said, "I'll give you twenty four hours to get out of town. Or I'll intern you for the duration of the war." Well, I was bluffing again. I said, "Look, Major, you won't do that." I said, "You had just had the, the Pni incident over here, it made a bad reputation for the Japanese all over the world. You intern me, you'll have the same thing over again. "Well, would you get out as soon as you can?" I said, "Yes!" (laugh)

JL: Oh, no!

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SB: So, anyway, Dr. Wilson wanted me. He had a Chinese girl there that was a RN. You know what an RN is? In the hospital. Then, she wanted to get back to San Francisco, she couldn't speak Chinese. And she wanted to get back home. She was from the states. So, he wanted me to see if I could get her a pass to go back with me to Shanghai with my pal, the three of us. They wouldn't let . . . wouldn't give me one. So, he says, "I'll tell you what we'll do. We'll bore a hole through the bottom of your trunk, and we'll put a hose in there. And we'll put her in the trunk. When you get ready to leave." He said, "We'll hope your pal doesn't see us put her in the trunk." So, she rode all the way back to Shanghai, breathing through this hose. To get air.

JL: Oh, my gosh! She couldn't get out any other way?

SB: (negative)

JL: And, your pal never knew about her, huh?

SB: (negative)

JL: My lord!

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SB: Well, that... that should be about enough, I think.

JL: Yeah, that was about a half hour.

SB: I could tell you the most interesting. This is a short one, but a most interesting one. Thing I ever did. Our main office in Yangsy Poo, when the Japanese controlled area outside of Shanghai. And we had our main sawmill distribution yard there. And, we used to sell the Japanese, 'cause we had to. If we didn't they'd take it. So, we put on a good price, and we did all right. So, into my office couple of days, one day, comes a Japanese colonel, who dumps a blue print on my desk. Said, "Can you supply it?" I looked at it. It was obviously a railroad bridge about five hundred feet long, forty feet high. A lot of timbers. So, I counted the pieces, took the sizes and the measurements, and everything else. Put on a fancy price, "Let's see, we can supply it." He said, "Okay." Before he left I asked him what bridge it was. Says the Woo Hoo bridge. Says the Chinese destroyed it. when they retreated. Well, I was very pro-Chinese, and anti-Japanese. So, after he 111:00left, I Char, our Chinese manager in, who I knew was connected with the guerrillas. I said, "Char, why don't you get ahold of your guerrilla friends, and tell 'em we just sold the timbers for the Woo Hoo bridge. And when they get it in, why blow it up!"

JL: Didn't you Japanese friend know that you might do that? Or, Japanese . . .

SB: Six weeks later he came back in. "Three days after we got that bridge finished, the Chinese blew it up." Well, I nearly died laughing inside, but a very straight face. 'Cause, if he'd known where the information come from, then that for me, you know. So, we sold that bridge' five times in two years.

JL: Oh, my lord, and he never caught on that it was you that was informing? Boy, you were in a dangerous position! Many times! Are you (laugh) okay.

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